Huzzar

What is worse, explicitly defining what you mean by the term "Christian" or using a wishy washy requirement that you believe in a Supreme Being then making it so weak that the only people that don't make the cut are atheists but not Buddhists? FYI, Mormons have been considered a non-Christian cult by many non-Mormons for most of their existence. Read this article about how the LDS decided that black people were cursed with dark skin and then were not cursed anymore and you'll get an idea of why other denominations have problems with their theology. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/19/opinion/sunday/racism-and-the-mormon-church.html

With what I've seen from Trail Life USA, I can say that as a Catholic I would not want my sons to join. It seems like it is basically a Protestant organization. The Episcopalian and Presbyterian (USA) churches are having a lot of problems with their national bodies pushing gay rights (as well as being pro-abortion). In fact both denominations are losing entire congregations over the issue. Mainstream Protestantism rejects the views of the liberal churches. The liberal churches are the minority not the other way around. I think that TLUSA will probably appeal to the same churches as AHG and end up being about the same size as AHG. It will be interesting to see if any Catholic churches charter TLUSA units, I can see why you'd be leery.

There are some "training" slides there too but basically National has pushed it back to the Units.

You didn't say but you imply it. (wink, wink)

This is verbatim from the flyer they've produced to hand out to prospective members and parents. Show me where they are being disingenuous. How could you not figure out they're a Christian youth group? All boys are welcome irrespective of religion, race, national origin or socio-economic status. However, all adult leaders must sign a Christian statement of faith. All program elements are taught from a Christian worldview, with God’s truth woven into the very fabric of the program.

The left wing haters are gonna hate, TonyH. Simple as that.

What is the "wink, wink" for? There's nothing nefarious or sneaky about who they are and what they want to do. Leaders have to be Christian. They define what they mean by Christian. If non-Christian kids want to go along they're welcome but told they will be part of a Christian youth group. How is any of this different from my local Catholic church's youth basketball team? If that's not your cup of tea then "move on" and don't be a hater about it.

No it didn't and no it doesn't. :-) Most units might have had that policy but National did not. As BD says, a third party with an axe to grind could get an adult tossed. That still applies. Cue ad nauseum discussion about what avowed means...

Exactly my sentiments, dcsimmons, they said they'd leave and they did. I don't see anything inherently contradictory in their new rules either. The dude running On My Honor was talking about BSA's "don't ask, don't tell" policy. OK, BSA didn't have one but that's what they're running with. The "biological boy" rule is probably as much to do with GSUSA letting a boy that identifies as a girl into a troop as it does bizarre interpretations of the new BSA membership standard. They might have a good number of people interested in joining them but they still have a long row to hoe. AHG is still very small and they've been at it for a while now. For me, it will be interesting to see if membership numbers for BSA drop after this year's rechartering and how FoS numbers look this year. Both are real measure of any damage caused by the change and Trail Life is going to be irrelevant to them.

You could have let sleeping dogs lie but you chose not to and instead tried to stir the pot again. Your follow-up proves my point. And you're a mod for crying out loud. I take it you're a last-word kinda guy too.

Why are you throwing rocks at the hornet's nest by posting anything on the subject and in particular "got away with it" versus "was found not guilty?" Mr. Pot I'd like to introduce you to Mrs. Kettle...

ha ha ... the best one I heard was Scouts couldn't visit F to trade patches because the co-ed Scouts and Venturers were having orgies.

I was at the Jamboree as a leader with a troop and my son was there as an over eighteen Venturer. Adults cutting in line. The consensus was that with all the restrictions due to weather and shortage of staff, adults kept away from the HA program areas. We did the nature trails, Summit Center etc. One thing to note was that the Scouts were identified by red bands on their credentials, adults by yellow bands and Venturers with green bands. One quirk was that Venturers over eighteen were issued yellow bands and used adult facilities. Perhaps these were the people that the Scouts thought were adults cutting in? Anybody with a “curriculum ticket†went to the front of the line and some areas issued VIP passes to frequent visitors that let them cut the line. We had two Scouts receive VIP passes for the skateboard area. So, any over 18 Venturer with a curriculum ticket or VIP pass might have been mistaken for an adult cutting in. Our contingent troop was made up of Scouts from about six Council troops. Our only scheduled days were the ones advertised in advance; day of service, Summit trek, curriculum time and any offsite activity the Scout had bought. I suppose the opening and closing shows might be considered scheduled but we let Scouts bail when they had enough of them (who booked a country and western band for a youth event???) Our SM insisted that every Scout attend a worship service or visit the religious exhibits on the Sunday morning. The rest of the time we let the Scouts do whatever they wanted until roll call at 9:30pm (a Summit-set time, we would have preferred 10 or 10:15). I’m not Catholic but took the Catholic Scouts in the group to Mass. It was heartwarming to see about 10,000 Scouts and adults standing in one heck of a rain storm to attend. The celebrant for the service was Archbishop Carlo Maria Vigano, apostolic nuncio to the United States (basically, the Vatican’s ambassador to the US). There were a number of other high ranking Catholic clergy in attendance. Archbishop Vigano mentioned that he had told the Pope was going to West Virginia for the Jamboree instead of World Youth Day in Brazil. :-) So, hey, the Pope knew about this Jambo. :-) The weather was a pain, no doubt about that. It seemed that lightning came in every afternoon and shut down the aerial and water programs. Due to the staff shortages, program ran from (I think) 9am until 5pm, not the 8am to 8pm I was talking up a couple of years ago during recruiting drives. A lot of frustration from yoots getting told “sorry†after standing in line for quite some time. Our view of the Day of Service was that it dovetailed with how troops work in our Council. Most of the boys enjoyed it, a few loved it and, of course, we hand two or three that hated being there. Our project was in Fayetteville and was useful. One thing the adults had talked about was the day being useful to the community and not a make-work event and our project passed that test. I heard through the grapevine that one Crew’s project was changed at the last minute and involved helping to save a school from flooding! I took a 4 gallon solar shower and had hot or warm water all but one day. Ambient temperature meant cold, no two ways about that. Most boys took cold showers at the peak heat of the afternoon and were ok with that. We had a couple of stinkers that had to get big hints to clean up their act. Feedback from our Scouts was that overall it was great. Only gripe was the weather shutting things down. My Venturer said it was a lot of fun but didn’t match the advertising. I agree with that statement as I was going out and pushing the National line and then having to talk about the scaled back version that was delivered. The one big change I would like to see National make is getting more staff so they can deliver 8am to 8pm program. I have no idea if lowering the price to attend would do it or not. I heard different views from different staff so perhaps each area would have to do its own assessment as to what would be needed to increase staffing levels. I spoke with somebody in D’s medical tent on the last day. Single biggest source of problems was the heat and boys not drinking enough water. She said that accounted for over 50% of the problems. BMX was cited as top source of physical injuries with some Scouts getting broken bones. The helicopter flew around quite a bit but I don’t think it was ever used in anger. The ambulances did have to take a few Scouts off site for treatment but most were fixed up on site. I don’t know how true this is, but was told a few boys were sent home for vulgar remarks to the female Venturers.

The ones that were kicked out were older Scouts for the most part. So, they can come back January 2014 if they are still under 18 at that point and want to bother. More of interest to me would be will BSA award Eagle to Scouts that had everything done before they were 18 (except successful EBoR because they are gay) and are too old to come back. I'm guessing no.

>>That explanation doesn't seem to flush with BSA's direct service units in plenty of foreign countries. The BSA units in foreign countries are providing American Scouting to American boys in those countries. AFAIK, BSA cannot recruit locals for a BSA unit.

I think it's the Pagan thing rather than the hat. The hat just caused her to state she belonged to a religion that her Council probably confuses with atheism.

You don't help your cause when your website includes pictures of pretty women showing their breasts. Not sure National would be too impressed with the nipples on view when they are telling Scouting's female yoots to wear swimwear that keeps everything covered. Why are the women showing "skin" but the men tastefully hide their wedding tackle? On the plus side, seeing the Cerne Abbas Giant via a Scout site was pretty funny.

Your post is an excellent example of bigotry. Way to go...

If he's prepared to walk away from earning Eagle for his beliefs then tread lightly. Don't say anything that directly contradicts his belief system and do not, under any circumstances, call him a bigot. If you or he want to be cynical; if he makes Eagle before 1/1/14 then it will be under the old membership policy.

Now you're just being silly.

Love the way NJblahblah thinks he speaks for everyone else.

You don't trust two gay guys you've never met before even though they pass the test for best youth protection in the country. I'm shocked, shocked I tell ya. :-) There is no straw man argument. It's the rubber hitting the road argument. You're the one limiting the scene to two boys. I treat two gays wanting to be away with a group of teenage boys the EXACT same way as I do two straight men wanting to be away with a group of teenage girls. Extreme suspicion.

Does Wayne Brock have any 12 year old sons or grandsons? If so, I offer to find two gay guys that are willing to take them into a wilderness area for 10 days. Just the kids and the two gay guys. I will guarantee that the two gay guys have passed the local school's child protection background check and have watched a video about Youth Protection on BSA website. Think he'll bite?

UK's growth might have more to do with getting Bear Grylls to be Chief Scout (or whatever he's called). We still have geriatric white guys instead of men that kill and eat rattle snakes. :-) Should also point out that the bottle neck in UK's further growth is adults don't want to volunteer and be accused of being kiddy diddlers, which is more of a concern now they let gay adult men sign up to take boys into the woods for 10 days.

I read it. One unit saying thanks but no thanks doesn't deny him membership of BSA. This is a resolution that stops National from being forced to kick a boy out of Scouting because somebody dropped a dime. National can't force any group of volunteers from accepting a gay boy in their unit.