Horizon

Another Vote for Google Docs here. You can set up different levels of sharing, editing, privacy rights, and people can manage or review on their own schedule. Finally, you are not in a world of hurt when your Treasurer drops out of Scouting and it takes 9 months to get the records from him (BIG problem for my cub pack). Then again, I am huge Cloud Computing proponent (sorry E61!).

Nobody is preventing us from adding competition. I do it all the time in my Troop, with a variety fo rewards: Best meal - Scoutmaster does the dishes Top popcorn sales - Pie in the face to the Scoutmaster Best campsite - Troop provides steaks for dinner 100% Uniform - No cleanup duties after COH etc. Our Camporees are also still competitive. 1st, 2nd, & 3rd place ribbons for Patrols in each event, also for Crews. While the overall "excellence" patch has gotten too common (everyone seems to score an A overall), the competition between events is still very strong. Each event posts the top 3 scores at any time, so that others can see what they need to beat. I don't blame the lack of competition on Scouting, I blame it on us in the field (yes, including myself. I can do a whole lot more). There is nothing keeping each one of us from developing some competition around Scout skills and making it part of the Troop culture.

February. District Camporee is in the first weekend in April, and by bridging they can join their Troop, learn the basic skills, and go to compete. In my my Troop we have a Camporee Prep campout in March were we erase Cub Scout brainwashing, and then the next month they head to Camporee. The great thing is that by competing at Camporee, they have a reason to really nail the skills - and their Patrol has a reason to teach them (heh heh heh - a Game with a Purpose!) But that is what works for our area, I admit. The other great thing is that by joining in February, the boys are more likely to go to Summer Camp (which can be in June). I think that going to summer camp early helps get a boy really engaged in the Troop, he gets to know his Patrol mates even better, and he is more likely to get ingrained into Scouting.

DK does raise a good point though - we should also be teaching how to maintain the newer gear. If 2 half and tautline are critical for old tents, replacing guy lines on new tents, etc. then there are also newer skills that should be covered like replacing shock cords on newer style poles, repairing nylon fabric, etc. Perhaps a course on cleaning out liquid fuel stoves as well. Hmm - might have a job for my Venture Crew.

I don't consider most of the T-2-1 skills to be useless if you are going to continue being in the great outdoors. If you aren't going to be in the outdoors, then you don't belong in the Boy Scouts, Venture Scouts or Sea Scouts. The core game that helps our purpose stems from the great outdoors. The basic knots are needed for most shelters, for being able to use a tent that has had a mishap or 3, or for just tying stuff down on the roof of your car when you leave Ikea. Starting a fire with nothing is a great skill, and being able to cook over it even more so. Adding in the need to use a backpacking stove as well is also needed. I saw a presentation from an astronaut, showing his diagonal lashing of gear on the International Space Station. First Aid is always going to be critical (though you mentioned that). I do think the requirements need reviewing on a regular basis. I would add that all Scouts should know the advantages and disadvantages of a GPS unit, for example - but they still need to know map & compass BECAUSE of those limitations. Some have argued that the basic bowline is not sufficient, and should be replaced.

We make our own shelters on campouts 2-3 times per year. We bring the poles, ropes and tarps only, and the Scouts have a blast. There are no restrictions on the design, though I wander the site late at night with the SPL and water to "test" their water proof design. We leave the stoves at home 2-3 times per year if possible, forcing everyone to either do dutch oven or campfire cooking. I had a boy grilling bacon recently. Finally, we have the knot board. It has all of the T-2-1 knots and lashings on it, with a piece of rope for every knot. We have time trials, patrol competitions, etc. on that board. Boys love competition. Boys have shown up to a troop meeting to find that there was a bus crash of all adult leaders, and each Patrol had to help one carload of adults. ID their problem, and then take care of them. Only addition is that we have an annual Camporee with competitions that overlap T-2-1 skills significantly. This works very well to get the boys interested in perfecting their skills.

For those of you who would like to play with numbers, CATO (a Libertarian leaning think-tank) has published their various recommendations on how to reduce government spending: http://www.downsizinggovernment.org/ I like the site, as it helps put a lot of the numbers in perspective. Our biggest areas are defense and entitlements. Another good site (and where CATO gets many of their numbers) is the Congressional Budget Office. They had this to say: Trends, 1950 to the Present Spending by the federal government grew from approximately 3 percent of GDP in 1925 to 15.6 percent in 1950. Following the Depression, World War II abruptly boosted federal spending to approximately 42 percent of GDP, but afterward it dropped and resumed a less volatile trend. Notably, over the past 40 years, Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid have collectively become the largest component of the federal budget (see Figure 1 and Table 1). In 1962, with Social Security outlays representing only 2.5 percent of GDP and Medicare and Medicaid not yet created, spending for all other government activities accounted for 86 percent of noninterest federal outlays. The largest share was for national defense, which accounted for more than half of noninterest outlays and represented 9.2 percent of GDP. By 2000, spending for Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid equaled 7.6 percent of GDP, triple the 1962 level for Social Security alone. While still constituting less than half of all federal expenditures, the three programs combined accounted for the largest share of the government's total outlays. Defense spending had fallen to 3 percent of GDP, and all other noninterest spending stood at 5.4 percent. Interest expenditures, whose share of GDP rose steadily from 1.2 percent in 1962 to a high of 3.3 percent in 1991, stood at 2.3 percent in 2000. http://www.cbo.gov/doc.cfm?index=3521&type=0

I thought I would return to the topic, "how would your troop handle a rumor of a bisexual scout?" Rumor? I would do nothing, though I might watch for any issues of people not wanting to share a tent with the Scout. His statement? I would have a quiet SMC with the Scout, to talk about the risks that come from shouting out certain things. If he then reported the bullying from summer camp, I would pass on that information to the Camp Staff / Council folks. Would I let him run for SPL? Sure I would, and the Troop might or might not respond to the rumor and not vote for him. Now, if during the SMC he comes out of the closet to me, I am in an interesting quandry. I would remind him that the BSA interprets morally straight to disallow adults who are homosexual. I would let him know that he would struggle in Scouting, and possibly not pass a BOR, if he openly comes out of the closet (I think the term used by some is "avowed homosexual").

I also find the value of Patrol separation here: 1) The Patrol has to work as a team, rather than messing around with other Patrols 2) My non Physically Strong adults don't have the energy to go bothering the Scouts and stay in the adult site drinking their coffee sitting in their chairs. As I have said before, I do my best to keep everyone separated in their Patrols as my environment allows it, while also keeping up enough of a rotation across different locations to keep all Scouts interested (they are the ones that complain when we go back to certain places too soon).

Kudu - I know the 300 feet it is Baden Powells - I just like to give you credit. I will admit that you are the one that reminded me of his words. The Cleveland is OK, but not nearly as clear as you make it out to be. When I add in the adventure that the boys seek, they are best attracted to high peaks. This means permits that cost $5 per person, have to be filed in advance, and camping sites must be designated. This is hitting San Gorgonio and San Bernardino peaks, for example. The Cleveland has some nice places that we have hit, but water can be an issue depending on how far in we go. Our fall backpacking trek will be two groups of 12 going out on different trails, with limitations on where we can stop. Here is what my ASM got from the Ranger: "I checked in with the rangers in at San Gorgonio and they said there are some fallen dead trees at John's Meadow and the Trail camp is closed for overnight backpacking. So I researched Momyer Creek Trail (off highway 38) to Alger Creek Trail Camp (6.5 miles round trip with a 1400 Ft. elevation gain). There is water nearby. There is an option for the older Scouts to hike further to Dobbs Trail Camp (2 more Miles) to camp. The Ranger said 1 permit is available for (12 scouts)." As you can see, for these sites, we are limited to designated camping areas. Basement: I have run into the same attitude. I like to remind people that there are 60,000 Scouts just in Orange County, CA and that because we hike in uniform, it is easy to spot a few bad apples and apply it to everyone.

There is a reason that National made a data error and pushed FCFY - the data showed that drop outs happen before FC, and if we get the boys to FC then they stay. I personally would hypothesize that instead those boys who stick around and do enough camping to get to FC have decided that they like Boy Scouts. Once you like Boy Scouts and commit the time to it, if you have a good Troop and Council - you can earn the Eagle. Now - in the Summer Camp Thread TAHAWK mentions the increase in the numbers of boys earning Eagle, and that goes along with the drop in boys joining Scouting. That also makes sense to me. Scouting is becoming only for those boys who WANT to be in Scouting. You have to decide to sacrifice other activities to be there. My son is benched for tournament play at the beginning of the season because he is going to summer camp and missing a week of practice. Another boy in my Troop backed out of Philmont due to his football coach (the coach said that he would not start if we was not at their hell week). So we have whittled Scouting down to those boys (and families) that really want to be there, instead of just adding it as another activity that fills the time. We have lost a lot of casual Scouts and Scouters in our new society. It stands to reason that the Eagle percentage would increase once you reduce the volume of Scouts in that way. The next thing impacting this is the internet. I can find the requirements to any MB now online. I can print out tracking charts. I can email a MBC, instead of having a short window at night to call their home (when I was a Scout, you did not call someone at work, you did not call after 8:30 PM, and you had to be careful about calling during the dinner hour). The list of Council MBCs is easily available in a digital file, instead of hoping to find the mimeographed list that someone has. The Eagle Project can be documented in a form supplied by NESA. Sample projects can be reviewed online with a simple Google search. Technology has taken a lot of the uncertainty and questions out of the way of the Eagle candidate. Technology has also made it easier for MBCs to be recruited.

BadenP: Is there a cite for this statement, "The facts are that overall troops are doing less and less camping, high adventure, backpacking, and other outdoor activities than ever before"? I have not observed that personally - but the plural of anecdote is NOT data. I am curious if there is something from the tour permit database showing that units are not camping as much. The only limitation I deal with is due to my Troop's location in Southern California. Fire bans make it hard to practice fire building and open fire cooking skills for much of the year. Camping limitations make it difficult to get Kudu's 300 feet, though we do Patrol camp and have them separate. Backpacking is fine, but requires permits with a max of 12 hikers per permit, so we have to split up the unit (usually 2 patrols per crew), and separate. 2 deep leadership means I need more Physically Strong Scouters to lead these patrols out there. Now - back to the summer camp issue. I would really like to look at what the cost impact would be if we required every MB class at a camp to be taught by a paid adult, and we limited the class sizes to a reasonable number (max 10 in my opinion). This would also eliminate the CIT position, and the summer job for a lot of young Scouts once those jobs evaporated.

Sorry to hear you went through this. Let me paraphrase my comment to the parents of the boys in my Troop. "Parents. The absolute best way to get your Scout homesick, is to call them or visit. Up until the moment they make contact with you, or see a friend making contact - they are too busy, too engaged to even think about being homesick. However, if you come for a visit or if your Scout somehow makes a phone call - they WILL be homesick at the end of the call. I will then have to have adult leaders and members of the Venture Crew cheer your Scout up. My first year at Summer Camp, I was having a great time until I called home on Wednesday. I then, for no good reason, got homesick and started crying. Luckily, an ASM spotted me and spent an hour bring me back to an even keel So - give them a hug when they leave, and wait for the stories when they return. They will be fine, I promise." Now, this is also managed in my Troop through the Venture Crew slush fund. Any member of the Crew has a budget to spend on 1st year Scouts. If they spot a miserable Scout, they are authorized to spend my money on an ice cream, a soda, etc. (for both of them - this is also a bribe) while they distract the young Scout. Sorry to hear this happened.

Oaktree - rather than a race to tie 5 lashings (though that is what we do at Camporee), how about make your own shelter using each of the lashings and knots and sleep under it for a campout? My Troop does this 2-3 times per year. The tents stay home, and only tarps, ropes and poles make it into the trailer. The Patrols have to build shelters, and they have learned to Be Prepared for a sudden rainstorm during the night. This rainstorm delivered by the Scoutmaster and the SPL with a pair of water bottles, since it does not rain in Southern California. Instead of a test, the whole Troop has fun and actually applies their skills on a campout - and isn't that what it is all about? We just surprised the Troop with telling all of the boys who went on the last campout that they are close to earning Geocaching MB. The SPL worked with the MBC, and all of the games and activities and patrol contests coincidentally overlapped with the requirements. We did not tell anyone until Sunday morning, to make sure that it was seen as fun games, not as a MB class. Worked great - though I only expect half of the boys to finish the final few requirements.

packsaddle: In my case, you get the very long, drawn out search of all of your belongings when the little acne swab test shows something. My bags from a trip had enough powder residue, and when I was pulled for the Stridex test (what I call it when they wipe down your bag with the little cotton patch), it was positive. I was able to explain that I had been hunting, and shooting, and reloading. They still unpacked everything, and I got to get up close and personal with a nice man from TSA as well. Luckily, it appears I did NOT make the special list after that, so I don't get pulled every time I travel.

I wonder what the cost of camp would become if every MB class was staffed with an 18 year old or older merit badge counselor, and if no class had more than 10 Scouts. That means no more leaning on "free" CITs whose work is signed off by one area Director, and no packing 30 boys into a class. I don't know how many units would / could pay that much per boy. ------------------- As Scoutmaster I encourage Scouts going to summer camp to take outdoor badges, and to take badges that we don't the resources for locally one way or another. First Aid and E Prep we can handle. Swimming / Lifesaving, however, requires paying a local pool for access - might as well pay the Council at camp. Waterfront MBs we tell the boys to take. First year Scouts we encourage (and the best encouragement comes from experienced Patrol Leaders and senior Scouts): Nature Mammals Pioneering Wildernesss Survival Waterfront badges (if there is a waterfront) Astronomy (if they teach it at night with the right gear) - though we also offer this as a Troop at times based on the assistance of some local experts at the University. By their second year, the boys know what they want to do and what makes the most sense to them. This year I have several Life and Eagle Scouts who are trying to just take random fun badges together (a few years ago I had 3 Eagles take basket weaving together just for fun. It was them, a CIT, and a bunch of 11 year olds). Another of my Eagles is taking the SCUBA course only, and will spend the rest of his time hanging out with friends and helping younger Scouts on their Trail to First Class. We rotate camps every year, so every return to a site is a toss-up on what we will experience.

BadenP: I did read the thread, and this one, and many others on this site where 13 year old Eagles are disparaged. Lets start with this consensus: ""The consensus seemed to be a very academically oriented one with minimal outdoor experiences, missing out on camps, jamborees, high adventure, full participation in OA, etc" I have described my trail. By the time of my Eagle BOR, I had: Camped every month, Attended 3 summer camps (my troop camps with a weekend campout AND summer camp), Trained at the equivalent of NYLT, Went to 1981 National Jamboree, Earned around 30 Merit Badges without ever having a repeat MBC, Started my own Patrol, Served as a Den Chief, Served as Chaplain Aide running services every Sunday. Brotherhood Member of OA, helping out at tap outs, Ordeal, etc. My camping log is far from the minimum for Eagle, or for any rank. My PORs were for more than just Advancement either. Now, according to the posters here, I must of then dropped out once earning Eagle. Nope. Hit Philmont, led the Troop on a couple of new backpacking runs, and stayed involved until my family moved. At 18, I became an Assistant Scoutmaster and took a crew to Northern Tier. I volunteered with Scouting while at University as well. So - is it possible for a Scout to fully embrace Scouting and earn Eagle at 13 (in my case, a few weeks before my 14th birthday)- yes it is. Can they do it while still hitting every mark, and not being a paper Eagle? Yes they can. Can all Scouts? No, they can not. It takes a dedicated Scout with a well run Troop and Council that offers all of the necessary opportunities. So lets come back to the consensus again. "The consensus seemed to be a very academically oriented one with minimal outdoor experiences, missing out on camps, jamborees, high adventure, full participation in OA, etc" The consensus is wrong. However, that can all just be a fun debate. I enjoy Kudu's participation, and have saved many portions of his website. When he talks about 300 feet, I remind him that is next to impossible with LNT and the camping restrictions in the Sierras where I go regularly. Pack - you are right - I did that very un-Scout like slap back because I allowed my internet temper to get the best of me. That said, I won't just sit quietly while someone repeatedly insults me and my fellow Scouters.

Pack: I find Basementdwellers attitude as expressed on this forum extremely insulting. Several of us have mentioned that we too are Eagles, Eagle dads, and earned the rank at an early age. Have we heard much in response? No - we have been painted with a broad brush. I chose not to take it. His post even adds a bit of "have you stopped beating your wife" with his junior high level debate style of asking "Horizon......Hitting a bit close to home????????" Now, this is the internet, where people act far worse than they typically do in public. Some here continue down a path of disparagement with no information, no knowledge, and frankly no class and no desire to follow the Oath and Law. I wonder how much of their attitude carries over into their units, how often they make comments that a boy hears and internalizes. How many boys quit their troop after thinking that they are not good enough. How many adults leave, not wanting to be associated with that particular attitude. Bluntly, someone who thinks that a 13 year old Eagle can't handle it or is not ready is probably adding to the requirements in a variety ways in their unit.

basementedweller - you ever earn the Eagle? You come across as one of those jealous types who just can't handle the fact that some people achieve, while others just observe.

Why doesn't one of you define Eagle Mill so that we can properly decide who to throw out of the Brotherhood fo Scouting, or who to shun at Summer Camp. We can even make a nice list to those units we should avoid. Perhaps we can add a scarlet outline on the Eagle knot if someone got their Eagle too early. What a bunch of hogwash. Troops shouldn't be proud of their Eagles? Troops shouldn't provide a complete program that allows a dedicated Scout to Advance and be recognized? I am tempted to tell my Scouts to sit on their applications for Eagle so that some blowhard doesn't sneer at them if they earn it too "early." Perhaps we should stop accepting applications from Eagle candidates under the age of 14, and over the age of 16 - after all, after we are done slamming young Eagles, we can get onto the important business of slamming death-bed Eagles. Lets see, who have we insulted so far: Young Eagles (like me). Scout leaders who are Eagles (like me). Dads who earned Eagle who encourage their kids to earn it (like me). Troops that are proud of their Eagles (like the one I am honored to serve, and the one I am proud to have been a member of long ago).

I won't just be non-religious organizations. More churches are looking at their policies regarding gays and lesbians, and changing as well. For example, I don't know how Charters the Covenant Network Presbyterians hold, but at some point they might have a problem too. I know that my church will START a Troop and a Crew the second the BSA allows the Charter Org to follow their faith in applying the Morally Straight clause.

We bridge most of our Scouts in early March, in time for them to compete at Camporee. For the weeks leading up to Camporee, we have Scouts Skills training events during meetings and on Saturdays. By the time our new Scouts hit Camporee, they are skilled up and competing - thereby showing their skills. We also camp monthly, and several campouts during the summer have no tents - the Scouts build shelters using the lashings and knots that they have learned. We add in a backpacking run as well as a site where open fires are still allowed (tough here in So Cal). There we have fire building competitions and all cooking is done over the fire. We schedule in the police to do a Troop drug program during the summer. So with all of this, ACTIVE newly bridged Scouts can hit the requirements for Tenderfoot pretty easily, and 2nd Class by the end of the summer. If they go to summer camp, my boys like to take Swimming MB, Pioneering and Wilderness Survival their first year - which helps finish off much of the training for First Class. That leaves earning First Aid MB, to help cover all of the First Aid knowledge. Early Fall we have a First Aid month, which includes a distaster meeting where scattered around the parking lot we find a series of adults and senior Scouts suffering from different conditions that must be treated. We have been following this program for a few years, ever since a Scout designed it as a JASM. This makes it possible for an ACTIVE Scout (one who makes all campouts, goes to summer camp) to EARN First Class easily in their first year. However, with all of that, I would say that around 50% of my Scouts actually hit that goal. Finally, as is my tradition when someone decides to disparage 13 year old Eagles. Bring it on - I EARNED mine 2 weeks before my 14th birthday. I will put my achievement, dedication to Scouting, Eagle Project, and MB sash up and I proudly wear my knot on my Scoutmaster shirt. Don't question a 13 year old Eagle any more than you question one at 17.9999. I have seen plenty of 17.999 Eagles who simply worked hard for 2 years, disappeared for 3, then came back and slowly finished. Why do you automatically give them credit, while questioning the Scout who never stopped? Last year I had one 15 year old Eagle, who would have made it at 14 but he delayed finishing the write-up on his project. This year I will see 3 15 year olds finish it appears, plus one 17.9999 and one Special Needs who is 19. Based on the dedication of a couple of my younger Scouts, I could see a 14 year old Eagle in two years. This is why I kept on highlighting ACTIVE. I was not an athlete nor a musician - my entire life was Scouting as a boy. When you get a boy who WANTs to come on every campout, every meeting, every activity - you get a boy who can earn First Class in a few months, and Eagle at 13. He is not a paper Eagle - he is a dedicated Scout.

We planted flags on Saturday. The graveyard has Veterans interreed going back to the Civil War, and my Scouts attention can be captured through some simple exercises such as finding the oldest grave, the newest grave, and a person from all branches of the military. This gets them reading the stones a little more, and helps lead them to a deeper discussion. On Monday we were part of the presentation of colors for the ceremony itself. We will also often have a MB Counselor for American Heritage who has the boys talk to people as they assemble for Requirement 2 C& D: c.With your counselor's approval, interview two veterans of the U.S. military. Find out what their experiences were like. Ask the veterans what they believe they accomplished. d.With your counselor's approval, interview three people in your community of different ages and occupations. Ask these people what America means to them, what they think is special about this country, and what American traditions they feel are important to preserve.

Yep - had to kill the chicken. That and the wild plant salad are two of my best memories from summer camp. The idea of the chicken was to figure out how to kill it, clean it, and SAFELY cook it. Great exercise, even if it was not an actual requirement. I would LOVE to do that with my current troop, but I would need to start with teaching them how to humanely kill a chicken. Note - you can't hang em. (Lord forgive me for the giggles I get when I recall this - it was cruel, but still makes me laugh).

evmori: The key point from the amendment, IMHO, is this one that I quoted "The PC(USA) has no consensus in the interpretation of Scripture on issues of same-sex practice."