HiLo

Some of society's changes are good, and one could argue that Scouting is ahead of the trend in some areas. Smoking is an example that springs to mind.

As a foreigner (I'm in Australia), I'm wondering if there are ways of changing parts of BSA policies if enough members disagree with them? After all, society's values do change with time. Or is it really a benevolent dictatorship?

I just wish I had legs like that!

Not a Scouting matter (though it does involve youth), and it hardly seems to fit into a forum called Issues & Politics, but I just have to share this hilarious video from an Australian indigenous festival. The video and production is quite amateurish, but the dancing is awesome. http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=yolngu+zorba&search=Search I can give a little bit more background to it for anyone interested.

Lots of comments about role models here. I think it''s a bit irrelevant. Kids find roles models in many places - school, sport, family, TV, movies. And every kid''s experience will be different. Scouting cannot pretend to be providing just one gender of role model because of some perceived gap elsewhere. We really have no idea in most cases. Great leaders and adventurous activities is what we should be providing. I don''t see how one''s gender affects that.

ozemu above advocates as few restrictions as possible. I can understand where he''s coming from because in our country, Australia, Scouting has been co-ed at all levels, youth and adult, for a couple of decades now. It seems to work. I''m a Group Leader, which is kind of head-honcho for Scouting in my township. I would hate to be restricted by gender when hunting down people for the various roles for which I have to find occupants.

Thanks for your help, all of you. I feel much better informed.

How much of a connection is there really between Scouting and the Astronauts? Here in Australia we have a recruitment poster that occasionally gets recycled which has a dramatic picture of footprints on the Moon, and the Earth in the background, with the caption "Scouting can take you places." It''s one of my favorites. (But I''m old, and I''m not sure how much it means to kids of today.) Now, I know Neil Armstrong was an Eagle Scout. But a friend in Scouting made a claim recently that ALL the footprints on the moon were made by Scouts. I was a bit surprised. Is it true? It seemed a bit unlikely to me. But I thought I''d come to the experts for advice before I picked a fight. Anyone know more details?

Not a bad approach there dScouter15. I like the "respect" approach. My only "rule based" thought while reading your post was that if the phone is not either turned off or set to a silent ring during almost all activities, that kid is immediately not showing respect. It''s amazing how technologically literate the owners of these devices can be but still be unable to find the Off or Silent settings on their phones.

hot_foot_eagle - I love your idea for the 50" TV. Might try that approach. Our biggest challenge has been with younger kids, 10 or 11, on their first camps, where Mummy has wanted little Johnnie to have his phone so he could contact her when he got homesick. I guess it''s just another example of the troublesome parent. Not sure how many of you have encountered that before. ;-) I can see the value at times of the more advanced stuff with GPS tools, etc, but even that I''d like to see used in moderation. After all, when I was young...............

I''m posting from outside the USA and may be unaware of strict national guidelines you already follow on this issue, but - what do you do about cell phones? Do you allow them on hikes and camps? At normal meeting nights? If they are allowed, what rules apply? Silenced or off at certain times? What do you say to the mother who insists her darling has one so he can contact her if anything is worrying him?

1 to say "Save the world. Work by moonlight."

Thanks for the welcome Red Feather. And to Jambo as well, it's forums like this that make us realise that Scouting is a global community. While there are differences between what we do, and some of them are seen as sacred by some (I can tell the girls in Scouts thing is one of those), our basic principles are pretty much the same. Recently a few colleagues went to the UK for the Centenary World Jamboree in the UK. We chatted with them there, and watched proceedings on the Net. It made me feel part of a real global movement. And Jambo, I don't know if you realise that the World Jamboree song was called Jambo! It was a quite upbeat number. It's basic meassge was "One World, One Promise". Not strictly true, but close enough for me. If you're into this sort of thing you can find a video clip of it on YouTube by searching for "jambo promise".

Yes ozemu - well aware of the problem with thongs. And I'm still not used to hearing my daughter, who lives five months of each year in the States, telling us she has to go to the bathroom. I tell her she might find it more practical if she went to the toilet! ;-) And moxieman - I'm constantly reminding myself when reading here that Scouts in the US is exclusively for boys (or almost). 35 years ago I was there when the Rovers of Australia (18-25 year olds) decided to let girls become full members. It flowed on from there over the years and now girls are fully part of every section or age group. Girl Guides (the equivalent of Girl Scouts) still exists, but tends to have less outdoors/adventure based program. And, despite predictions to the contrary, it wasn't the end of the world! But I guess that franchise arrangement you have could mean that it's difficult to change the views of those who make the rules. And hey, you really are an expert on Moxie, aren't you!

moxieman - Thanks for the clarification of "biscuit". I try hard to use the American form of English when I write for an American audience (and that was actually a quote from Wikipedia), but it's amazing how many language differences there are between your version of English and mine. I teach IT in schools and the more nerdy members here will appreciate that this week's challenge has been to get web design students to use the spelling "color" in html, rather than "coloUr" as they're used to. Even my other major teaching area has a language problem if I discuss it here. We abbreviate Mathematics to Maths rather than Math. Ah well, as the French say, "vive la difference"! MAths

Was Bush a Scout?

It's OK ozemu. I realised you were talking about the beer with the 4 Xs on the label. But I believe it first came from Castlemaine in Victoria anyway. And Russell Coigt eh? Ha Ha. I won't embarrass you too much. Just don't call people here complete galahs, eh? As a kid I was a bit of a fan of the Leyland Brothers. I like to think I grew out of it!

Wow. What a cultural exchange. Moxie and Maine maple syrup for Tim Tams. Yep, historically Australians stationed overseas have sought out Vegemite, our unique spread for toast, sandwiches, flavouring stews, building bonnie babies and everything else. Most non-Aussies hate the stuff. I think you have to be weaned from mother's breast directly onto it, then it becomes a lifelong craving. But it is surprisingly available wherever Aussies seem to go these days. But Tim Tams. That's another story. Not so easily available. (They don't travel as well I guess. And hot weather could be a killer.) A bit newer than Vegemite. My two adult daughters who travel a bit seek those in the survival packs we have to send. Shall we educate the masses? Here is the Wikipedia definition: "A Tim Tam is composed of two layers of chocolate malted biscuit, separated by a light chocolate cream filling, and coated in a thin layer of textured chocolate." I think most people will have a picture by now! I'd never heard of Moxie, so I looked it up. Now I must get some! And I'm sure you'll tell me that real Maine maple syrup is the best in the world, despite all those Canadian claims. Subarus? Well, they ARE practical for Scouting activities. Nice on snowy roads, which you'll notice is one of my favourite destinations. When all my kids are home, three of the five cars parked in the driveway are Subies! Just farewelled my wife and one daughter heading to the snow this weekend in daughter's Subaru for a big XC skiing festival. No Outbacks here though. And yes, beer fashion dictates that Fosters is not popular in Australia right now. VB, or Victoria Bitter seems to be the in-beer right now. Most Aussies respect Paul Hogan for what he's done as an entertainer, actor and advertiser, but no, most of us aren't like that. We're generally not like Steve Irwin either. Most of us live in or near the big cities, within 30 miles of the coast. Fortunately that leaves the big outback space in the centre that available to us all. Good for Scouting. Just to give a flavour of what's happening here in Scouting, tonight my Venturer Unit (14-17 year olds) will be abseiling. Tomorrow night the Cubs are having a sleepover with a neighbouring Cub Pack, and on Sunday the Scouts are going to the snow for a first time ski for most of them. Last weekend our Joey Scouts (6 and 7 year olds) won the Tui Shield (named after a New Zealand bird) for a 10 pin bowling competition between several local Joey Mobs. It's great to feel I'm contributing something towards getting kids doing all those activities. That's what we do this for, isn't it.

I've recently, after many years, got rid of a problem at almost the other end of the spectrum - the Obsessive Volunteer. This lady insisted on attending every volunteer opportunity, but was herself very unpopular. I think volunteering with us gave her some sort of sense of purpose, so Scouting was helping her. Trouble was, when she was around, no-one else wanted to volunteer. It was a difficult issue. Fortunately some other factors have now led to her moving on, and we're getting a lot more volunteers as other parents gradually realise she's gone. (It's hardly something you can loudly promote.)

Well done Vicki (in Missouri)! You must have had some positive cross cultural experience. :-) I'm enjoying these forums, learning more about what's the same and what's different in our two countries' approaches to Scouting. Very valuable.

G'day ozemu. Too right. I won't be offended if you call me a silly old bastard for choosing to be a GL! But yes, one really discover the language and cultural differences on the web. I know that on this site I can't talk about putting the esky in my boot when we're packing for a camp. But it's a world wide movement and we all need to make that effort to communicate.

Ha ha ha. No, I haven't heard specifically of "Bunny Bashing". It sounds like something I'd discourage, but have to admit that rabbits are still a significant pest in many parts of this country. Introduced and feral animals are a huge issue in Australia. For those unaware, rabbits are not native to Australia and when they were introduced (1850s I think) they thrived, destroying grasslands and replacing other animals in their habitat right across the continent. In my own neighbourhood they seem to be reasonably controlled by foxes. Unfortunately the foxes (also introduced) are seen as a pest by anyone who keeps poultry.

ASM59 - I've never been to the USA either, but we Aussies feel we know a fair bit about your culture from what TV tells us, although I know that's not always the most reliable source. In my case I have the added advantage of having a daughter who works in the snow sports industry and spends most (of your) winters in the US and naturally tells us lots of stories. Up until now she has worked in West Virginia. This year she is heading to Heavenly resort on Lake Tahoe. Obviously she loves your country because she keeps going back! Yes, Alice Springs is a lot different to Melbourne, although it can get cold there in winter. I recall my nieces enthusiastically showing me a photo of their dad's underpants frozen by frost on the washing line when they visited there a while ago. I think we live in a great place for Scouting. We're on the edge of a major city (20 miles from the centre) but very close to all sorts of bush experiences. Plenty of bush walking and camping opportunities within a short drive. Our Scouts, a pretty young troop at present, will be doing a hike in a couple of weeks along a nearby "rail trail", an abandoned railway line turned into a great walking trail that starts about three miles away and heads up the Yarra Valley. They will walk for about 8 miles with backpacks then camp the night at the home of one of our leaders who lives out that way and has a bit of space on his property. It will be the first experience of that kind for most of them. Will be interesting to watch. Next weekend I get to help on a Cub sleepover. Must make sure I have the ear plugs ready so that at least I can get some sleep!

Yes Jambo. Our snow isn't what you would call totally reliable. All the major resorts have big snowmaking operations now. But that doesn't work for the cross country / ski touring scene, so we depend on nature. (Just like a lot of Scouting!) This year has been an excellent season after a disastrous one last year. And yes, I noticed a few people really speaking their minds. Refreshing! Maybe we could have a thread on climate change. That usually brings out a few strong opinions! ;-)

The WOSM website lists the Promise and Law in their original form as written by Baden-Powell: ____________________________________________________ The Scout Promise On my honour I promise that I will do my best To do my duty to God and the King (or to God and my Country); To help other people at all times; To obey the Scout Law. The Scout Law 1. A Scouts honour is to be trusted. 2. A Scout is loyal. 3. A Scouts duty is to be useful and to help others. 4. A Scout is a friend to all and a brother to every other Scout. 5. A Scout is courteous. 6. A Scout is a friend to animals. 7. A Scout obeys orders of his parents, Patrol Leader or Scoutmaster without question. 8. A Scout smiles and whistles under all difficulties. 9. A Scout is thrifty. 10. A Scout is clean in thought, word and deed. _________________________________________________________________ But they are prefaced with "...in language appropriate to the culture and civilization of each National Scout Organization and approved by the World Organization..." In my home country of Australia we now say "MY God" in the Promise, which was suggested by some posters earlier in this thread. It works for me. In my view, the words "in language appropriate to the culture and civilization of each National Scout Organization" allow for huge flexibility in how a national body can choose to adapt the original words. So the World organisation is hardly prescriptive on this matter. (It really can't afford to be, can it?)