HiLo

vol_scouter - in Australian Scouting we don't know who's gay. We never have. Can't really collect statistics on their impact. No doubt just like the USA, we have extremely strong youth protection policies. In my experience, they work. I just wish all within Scouting could lighten up, relax, stop worrying about those "others", and continue to deliver great Scouting experiences to whoever turns up, and wants all the positive stuff we have to offer.

Yes. Safety in numbers. Whatever your mix is, boys, gays, girls, if there's six or eight in a tent, it's pretty unlikely that any two will play up. But where I come from it's horses for course. Big tents for fixed camps, and small tents for two or three, rarely one, for hiking. By choice girls always tent together. Since we don't pry nor make them wear labels, I don't know where the gays sleep..

So GaHillBilly, tell us again why you told us that story about gay adult cruising? It's totally irrelevant, and, I suspect, simply designed to condemn all gay people. I'm sorry I didn't absorb your whole qualification that preceded it, but I thought you meant the story to tell us something. Maybe not. Maybe you just wanted to say "Some gay people do things I don't like". Let's give you a chance to put it in your words. EXACTLY what does your story tell us about the risks of having gay people in Scouting?(This message has been edited by HiLo)

You have to be cautious with what you ask of science. Science hasn't proven absolutely that smoking causes cancer in humans. But a huge amount of "circumstantial" evidence, plus a few court cases (where beyond reasonable doubt is the measure), have had a pretty big impact on what we all believe.

"So are you saying that the rate of sexual molestation will not increase in a statistically significant manner if homosexuals allowed?" That's not what I said. It's a sneaky debating strategy to change someone else's words and then argue against what you said I said. But I'm happy to play your game. Evidence? All those Scouting bodies, including my own, where we don't regard homosexuality as an issue. To me, rates of sexual molestation would appear to have reduced in Australian Scouting in the past decade or two, though I don't think anyone is obsessed enough to collect statistics. And they would have been significantly affected anyway by much stronger youth protection policies overall, and, shock horror, admitting girls as well.

vol_scouter says..."If I had such strong feelings that the BSA was wrong, I would leave. Why do such individuals not join a competing organization?" BSA is the single Scouting body in the USA recognised by WOSM. It is therefore the official Scouting body. As a member of Scouts Australia, I too am part of WOSM. I'm proud of it. Join some other youth organisation and you're not really part of Scouting. That's my perspective when I look at the discrimination practised by the official Scouting body in the USA. And GaHillBilly thinks he has proven to us that homosexuals will exhibit abusive sexual behavior towards Scouts by telling us a story about what consenting adult gay people do when they meet up. What consenting adults do with each other proves absolutely nothing about how they would behave among youth members. Most heterosexual adults have sex with other adults from time to time. They don't have sex with kids.

Nice story. It would be relevant to this thread if anyone HAD taken the straw man position you presented at the start of your post. However, no-one has, so it's not.

"...the kinda guy you would share your tent with." Yep. One of the best definitions in a Scouting context. There's a handful of people I would put in that category. Close friend is another label I would use for them. But there are certainly some people, even within Scouting, I would NEVER want to share a tent with!

I'll just say again.... We all have diverse experiences that educate us in these areas. I see no point in trying to outscore you (or anybody else) with my experiences. I still don't see why under-age sex is more of a problem with gays. It would still be both illegal and against Scouting rules. Do you really think gays are more likely than heterosexual people to breach those laws and rules?

Twocubdad tells us "our Scout Executive's standard stump speech ended with the line "Scouting's values are not for sale!" I always chuckled to my self that they're not for sale because we've already sold them." I like that view, partly because I've only recently discovered how true it is for Scouting in the USA. As a non-American, the concept of chartering organizations has been the thing about American Scouting that I find hardest to understand, and to fit in with what I've always understood Scouting to be. As for Youth Protection policies, what's the issue? I'd reckon Scouting needs to do everything it can to always be AND appear totally squeaky clean on that front. WAKWIB, was the UMC church asking for anything unreasonable, or was it just the extra training time that was the issue for the complainers?

I'd suggest that most of the argument both for AND against AGW that the general public hears is political.

vol_scouter tells me "Pedophiles have sex with prepubertal children and it is usually heterosexual. Amorous relationships between an adult and a post-pubertal child is a homosexual relationship." I'm sorry. There may be a cultural difference in definitions here, but I also note that you seem to have an obsession about homosexuals doing the wrong thing, not just by being homosexual, which doesn't bother me in the slightest, but by having sex with under age children. You didn't even think of under age hetero sex when you wrote the above, did you? Just those evil gays. Under age sex is not just against Scouting philosophies, but it's illegal, for males and females, in most countries. I'm not aware that homosexuals are more of a problem than heterosexuals in this area. And I can't see how being a physician for 25 years makes you more of an expert than anyone else here on why homosexuals can't be trusted. We all have diverse experiences that educate us in these areas. I see no point in trying to outscore you with my experiences. Stop being so arrogant.

Condolences. I am reminded of the circle with the dot in the middle on Baden-Powell's gravestone, meaning "I have gone home".

Kay, ever thought of emigrating? To Australia? I'd recruit you as a leader immediately! No issues here. In fact, as I finished writing that, I finally remembered that we had two ladies who were gay as Cub Leaders in my town a few years back. No secrets. No issues. No problems. I'm still friends with them. Great Cub Leaders! It's kinda funny that I hadn't even thought of those two people in all my previous comments here about homosexuality. That's how much of an issue it is to me and Scouting Australia.(This message has been edited by HiLo)

vol_scouter, you have made one of the classic offensive and ignorant points just above with your post assuming as fact that homosexuality equals pedophilia. Would you care to expand on that?

It's saddening to me to see so many posts expressing the short term view "We can't allow gays in because we would lose members and/or leaders". It would be so much nicer if people had the courage to discuss the ethics of banning gay folk, and perhaps the longer term situation as societal attitudes continue to change.

Why does a Scout Troop need a sponsoring organisation? Mine doesn't have one.

Thanks guys. At least I understand now where many of the principles of BSA come from. As a foreigner, from time to time I've made observations about differences in Scouting practices between our two countries, not realising that there was such a huge elephant in the background. Another innocent question.... Could Scouting run without the churches? In the little town where I grew up we had a secular unit (that I was part of) and one created by the Catholic Church. We did a lot more with Scouts from other towns than we did with those local Catholics. Very sad. That was four to five decades ago. In retrospect I see it as very divisive. These days its very hard to find a church based Scouting body in Australia.(This message has been edited by HiLo)

Yes, those religious bodies providing all that money probably will eventually change or turn a bind eye towards what is seen as controversial today on the gay front. Look at the Catholic church and the pill. Obviously against the rules, but also obviously "accepted". It's hard see them saying atheists are OK, but that could also become an area to turn a blind eye, at least on the Scouting front.

Oh, it's political alright. And the politicians simply can't be objective. Always looking to their supporters. Copenhagen needed fewer politicians, and more scientists and people who knew what actually could be achieved.

I find that a somewhat insulting post. It's deliberately vague, apart from slandering all those with different opinions for having built there opinions from the "superficial political blather you hear on TV". Sorry, in my case at least, and I'm sure many others, you're just plain wrong there. I think you need to give a bit more detail about how I've been misled. And perhaps tell exactly what I should be reading.

Yes WAKWIB, we've even heard about your new climate on the news in Australia! Hope you're keeping warm and safe. But I'm glad you used the term "climate change" rather than AGW. It was over 30 years ago that I first heard theories on major changes in global climate starting to happen, when I worked at Australia's Bureau of Meteorology. The consensus even then was that, overall, there would be an increase in temperature globally, but locally, what most people would see was much greater extremes (hot, cold, and wind) than had been experienced in the previous 50 years. Whether these changes are human induced was controversial even then, with peoples' views, sadly, seeming too often to align with their political views. My own view is that it's obvious humans have an impact on the environment in many obvious ways. The deniers need to convince me it's not enough to have an impact on climate.

"With the majority of scouting units sponsored today by churchs or church groups...." Is that really true for the USA? If so, it explains a lot. It's certainly not true in Australia. Can't really speak for other countries, but from readings and web conversations, I doubt if it's true in the UK, where Scouting began. Doesn't it really mean that you're running church youth groups with a lean towards Scouting ideas, rather than running Scouting? I know this post could read as a little confrontational, and I really don't want to offend anyone, but those last few posts discussing the huge influence of conservative Christians on Scouting in the USA were a bit of a surprise to me. Do the Christian church connected Scouting units accept members from other religions, or even from other denominations?

If the gay boy wants and deserves that bird on his uniform, he will still restrain himself, no matter who else joins. Admitting gays to the movement would not mean rampant sexual activity. That would still be totally unacceptable.

"...Of course, all six need not stay for all of every troop meeting ..." Ouch. Touched a sore point with me there NJCubScouter. I've heard too many people up the ladder telling me it's no good having part time leaders. But that's the modern world. So many people I know work odd hours in their jobs, shift work, or have other commitments that make "every week" a bit difficult. I'd be happy with three weeks out of five for new leaders, so long as I know in advance which three weeks. I'd be delighted to organise the roster. Just thought of a new request for Santa too. He might need a tip truck rather than the sleigh, but a few loads of gravel for the car park would help alleviate the mud bowl we currently have at times.