highcountry

We have tried to stress at PLC's the job duties of the positions, coach them along the way, hand out job descriptions etc. Next PLC is going to be 85% on leadership, responsibility, knowing and doing one's job. Most all the kids in my troop have the idea of getting back home to their xbox on their minds though. The parents don't take much of a stand so when I (the SM) tries to, I am seen as demanding and unfair vs the parents that roll over and let the kids do what they want without consequence. I have several who will be getting advance warning that tehy will not pass a SM review if they don't start to do the job and may loose their POR by the end of summer unless they try to perform. I have tried to get adult volunteers to get training with little to no success, I have tried to recruit dependable people but have had to few, I even wrote job descriptions for some positions to no avail. We created a troop guide book and a frequently asked question sheet to help parents and scouts understand teh process, this is material covere in the handbook and related material but no one can be bothered to read it so we tried to amke it easy for them. We are now planning a parent meeting to walk them through the program and relate it to teh FAQ sheet and guidebook so maybe they begin to understand. We are formatting our program more so the kids can reamin on autopilot but still try to develop more boy run, patrol method. They know the first troop meeting of teh month is campout planning. They know they can get a campout planning packet out of lockup which will help guide them through the complete planning process. Once we get them set up on doing this I hope we can develop more leadership on teh olders scouts helping the young ones along and running the campouts. My wife works with an ASM from another troop. To prevent frustration and burnout, his troop has reverted to having the active dult leaders realize when tey are doing too much for others and sit back and watch things fail. He says they end up with activites cancelled more than half the time. I am taking the break and will be back in the fall but I will not be putting the energy and time into it I once did. I am going to increase focus on teaching and developing leadership and take a more cavalier attitude on how much get sfund raised or how many activities get cancelled, I definitely will stop spending large amounts of time jumping through hoops covering bases ignored by others so things keep happening. My oldedst is 15 and Life, now working on eagle, my youngest Star and soon to be life, both should be eagle by end of Spring 2009 at which point I will be done. I will leave a troop far better equiped, with larger membership more organized and more boy led than when I arrived. I am going to try and enjoy my final year as SM and not be burned out like I have become. Seeing the lax attitude of parents and scouts, me first, lazy, unaccountable, path of least resistance in Society today I find it terribly hard to run an effective program. I see parents so used to smoothing out the bumps for their kids, taking the easy path and considering my takling positions of hard work, consequences and responsibility as being too hard nosed I wonder how much longer BSA can fight overwhelming odds. It is in a word...Frustrating.

This is the point I have reached at this time as well. I have notified the troop that I am taking the summer off and have sent an email to the adult volunteers what loose ends ae open, the schedule, roster and all kinds of other attachments. I have gotten calls and I am responding with "I am too busy right now"....it works for so many of them, now it's my turn. I want the troop to survive and succeed but others have to start to do their jobs and not wait for me to pick up the slack. As someone notes, teh longer the SM keeps puting his fingers in all the holes in the dike, the longer he is enabling others to sit back and do little to nothing. I have made dramatic changes in teh troop and implemented alot in the way of schedule, program, organization, boy led etc. It is in strong enough shape to last for a while, now it's time to basically force others to start to step up or watch things not happen. We have been without a functional secretary for over a year, myself and the treasurer are trying to pick up the slack, I have 9 ASM's but only 2 really show up much and have a good idea of what the program is about or contribute significntl to the troop and activities. Fortunately the CC and Treasurer perform as ASM's and help out a great deal. One thing we did recently was to intitute some new rules, though shalt be signed up for an activity no later than 2 weeks prior and must have funds, class one and permission slip in by that time or no go. We also announced that kids scouts had to make theri own ride arrangements as the adult leaders trying to be "ride Arrangers" was one of the major "no win" headaches. My wife had to take a Friday off work recently as one of the parents slated to drive kids back became a problem so she filled in (Scoutmaster and his family to fill in the gaps once again). I don't know if the sink or swim method is going to get anyone to start doing their job or to step up and help but I need the break and people in the troop are going to see how much was being done for them that I shouldn't have had to be doing and will not do for them when I come back this fall.

Our troop has been frustrated over the fundraising issue and have about given up. Most of the adult leaders believe a scout should learn to make it on his own steam as a part of the learning process in scouting, the problem is we have a predominant lazy attitude amongst our scouts and few parents support the concept of thier son getting out and learning to earn their own way. Most of the parents are fine to just write a check. We have gone to the boys on a few occasions on what ideas they had for fundraisers, only 2 significant ideas came forth. The first one was to try and make "easy Money", sell things on ebay and put the sales proceeds in their account. The general idea was they thought they would make a bunch of money easy by selling some old scratched hot wheels car and save themselves any real work. Since this was so easy we told the scouts to gather items they wanted to sell and commence, no one did. Everyone was too busy to come up with items, photo them, lsit tehm run the auctions etc. Several scouts admitted they had hoped thier parents would do it all for them ! Second idea was rent a scout, where scouts could do odd jobs in teh community and they would recieve pay to be put in their scout accounts. Not one scout ever did anything on this and not one parent showed any commitment or support so it died too. We live in a rural area so selling is more time consuming but add to that 90% of the scouts in our troop are LAZY. We sell Wreaths, candles and popcorn and very few scouts do any of the selling, it is parents or relatives buying. I took my sons out to sell to neighbors and buisinesses and they were tops in sales this year, but complained non stop becuase no one else in the troop was being made to go out and sell. We used to do Firewood but help from adults and scouts has become so pathertic that we have discontinued that as a fund raiser as well. We were just offered lawn chore work that will pay the scouts $15 per hour per scout, so it is something different, I am trying to get nother adult to coordiante this so I don't have to run that effort too. I will see how that goes. We get an annual grant from a local company and dues as well that cover all troop overhead expense, with that we allowed our scouts to keep 100% of the funds they raise in their scout account, we hope this provides incentive. I no longer have to stress about having succesful fundraisers to obtain 25% of funds raised to cover troop overhead....one less burden on my mind. This past year I managed to complete the re-outfitting of the troop for camping (It had outdated junk for camping gear when I inherited it from the previous SM 2 years ago). Now we can support teh putdoor program we have converted to from the previous "parlour Scouts" suburban activities the troop used to do. One of the sad things is, the scouts who are in poor families and need to take teh most advantage of fundraising, do so the least. We are hearing the same issues being common with other troops at monthly roundtable, many troops have already given up on fundraising. This fall we are offering the landscape work offered at the academy, popcorn sale, wreath and candle sales and that is it. Otherwise parents can write a check. I hate loosing this battle but you get burned out fighting against the tide after a while. Last Fall due to the failure of other adults I endedup running popcorn, had wreth sales dumped on me when teh coordinator was only half done, plus I ran teh firewood effort putting in 54 hrs on wood and 6 hrs keeping the books and collecting checks. I was becoming very bitter at the parents who never helped and when asked to get their kids involved, being told that they didn't want to participate and the parent felt no commitment to get their kid engaged. I hate to give up but sometimes you have to preserve your sanity.

This sounds a little similar to teh CC from helll situation I had to get fixed about a year ago but with some differences. The CC I ahd to get removed was possibly more abbrasive and to be honest, down right evil base don the description you gave. I however had 100% support from every scout, every parent, every committe memeber and every ASM to get her removed. It was not an easy job and I had to put up with her abrasive ways until she got booted but since everyone was on board I knew we could win the fight before collateral damage occurred in the troop. Your situation though sounds like teh committee and other ASM's support the problem SM, that is going to be an uphull battle and will likely result in division and damage in the troop, even if you were to win out. The manner in which she took over as SM was not in any way proper and it appears she is not willing to listen, change or get training, consider other views etc so those avenues look to me like an excersise in futility. You already have scouts deciding on theri own the situatiuon is not a good one and they are looking up to you. At the end of the day, this is for the fun and growth for the boys, the situation you describe does not sound like fun, and they won't be learning much leadership skills either, ie.....there is no win in the situation as it is or is likely to be going forward. Based on assuming what you describe as being an accurate assesment of what is happening, there appears one good choice....find another unit and leave. It is sad a 40 year old unit will likely fold but it is not your doing and it is not your responsibility to put up with a bad situation to uphold history and legacy. I would be looking for other units for myself and my son and transfer as soon as possible. I would also not be shy to tell those scouts (On the side) who were not happy with the current unit where you will be going, since theuy look up to you they will likley follow. Let the SM and those who support her mistaken path deal with the mess that occurs as the scotus evaporate out of the old troop. It's the bed they made so they can sleep in it. Have your son, yourself and the scouts that change units have a fun and beneficial experience, lord knows we have to deal with enough poitics in our jobs and scouts shouldnot have their time and experience waasted on messes like the one you describe.

I see the phrase "common Sense" being tossed about lately here, thet is what we tend to go by (saftey first of course). Common Sense tells me that the youth is earning his Eagle Award by doing the project so it is part of scouting. It's a requirement for rank, anyone know any Eagle Scouts who made the rank but did not do an Eagle project ? The book could just as easily say that troop meetings are outside the sphere of scouting. Just because some rule book says so, doesn't mean it really is so, at least with someone having common sense. Common sense also tells me that no one is going to get canned out of scouting because they allowed you to wear a class A on an Eagle project. The contrary in fact, based on the positive communication I got from the UC (Silver Beaver recipient over 2 decades in BSA) showing one of my recent Eagles in the local paper doing his Eagle project and giving BSA a positive exposure. As far as I am concerned I am going to continue to focus on providing a good safe program and keep my troop viewed positively in the community, district and council, the boys learning and having fun and the parents of the scouts very pleased. I'll leave it up to others to look for hair splitting rules and try to get in the last word on how they are correct.

I can't provide a list of rules but there have been many ridiculous rules already noted on this thread I was not aware of, rules that provide little to no safety benefit that help get some percieved laibility off someone's shoulders but make doing or organizing an activity difficult. Do I try to put on a safe program...you bet, I also try to put on a program that teaches my scouts the fundementals we are trying to achive, hard enough in these days where parents and kids want out the easy way all the time. I sometimes read here and elsewhere of scouters who seem to derive some sort of pride or ego that they can tell everyone else how their breaking some minute rule from BSA that provides no benefit otehr than to say I am a good scouter and follow the rules to the letter. How safe do we all want to be ? remeber personal responsibility ? or are we going to bow to the pressure of lawyers and special interests and regulate everything to the point it becomes too much of a hassle to do or it is no longer fun to go on ? I can't beleive BSA says our touch football games are of limits, Lazar tag was ridiculous, we continued to do it as a non scout event, no troop funds. I had someone who has since left my troop tell me dodgeball is out due to interpretation of G2SS, I told them too bad, they persisted and I told them to get lost. When I was involved with cubs the restrictions on camping didn't get in our way, we had safe and fun campouts but we called them non scout family events. Our troop has done firewood for years, we are safe, never had so much as a splinter, but with worries about council and rules on chain saws etc we took this offline. We created the local firewod for fitness club, the club madse money for a "good cause"...by the way teh causse is out trop and when we donated teh money we credited boys who helped according to the work they did. The entire Eagleproject/uniform thread is part of this mess, if someone wants to pontiifcate on minor ruels fine, but sometimes my boys wear a class A on an eagel project, as a matter of fact, the local town paper just published an article on our troop and one of the boysis shown in his class A, nice positive exposure to the troop and BSA in a small community, I could care less if it breaks oen of BSA's endless useless rules. I am trying to run a good safe program where teh scouts are learning and having fun, hopefully I can leave a positive impression of BSA and out troop in teh community, I'd ratehr do this than be an expert on BSA's ever increasing list of rules, many pointless and counter productive.

I don't think it's just as simple as scouts is less interesting than band etc. Example 1....I have a scout (Almost 17) who suggested a Mountain Bike outing, several other older scouts supported the idea and it made the calendar. I was fine with adding it even though experience has showed that only ONE Bike related trip over the past 4 years in our troop was NOT cancelled. Now the scout who proposed it is heavily involved in Baseball with a rigorous game and practice schedule, he will likely not go to the event and there are only a handful MAYBE who will go. The problem is not alweays simply the activity is not interesting enough, it sometimes is that scout activities are viewed as somewhat optional where things like team sports have a rigid schedule and expectations period. If I took that approach with scouts my troop would plummet in membership. The bottom line is that things like school football, baseball, wrestling, mountain bike racing clubs etc are cooler and when kids start reaching age 15-16 girls and other things noramlly become more interesting, it is the way it is so I am not going to sweat it. We schedule campouts or backpacking one to 2 times a month, we add in hikes and ski outings, we have patrol competitons and dutch oven coooking at troop meetings along with some popular activities like steal the flag, dodgeball, soccor, football etc and we only get about 65-80% meeting participation. Some of it is schedule conflicts and both scouts and parents regard troop schedule to be the most flexible and easiest to skip, I have other scouts and parents that are clueless and in a fog and space meetings and events and many other reasons. When Scoutmaster conference and board of review comes around, those who are rarely seen, or hardly help out etc don't pass the review and if the parent gripes we happily show them the attendance sheet and roster of attendance at the last few months activities. Another thing we implemented is a bead/point system. Each patrol has a plaque with strings to hang beads. They get beads for meeting attendance, beads for activies attendance, beads for monthly uniform inspections and other beads for accomplishments as a patrol. The effort is to get teh boys to see where they stand as a patrol vs other patrols and have them self motivate as a team to increase their bead/point count to make honor patrol at the next court of honor. This has an element to help encourage meeting and activity attendance. Unfortunately both parents and scouts view the troop as the first thing to look at when making adjustments in their schedules and the easiest to cancel out of or skip and there is little I/We can do to change that. When you try to set forth expectations and voice the notion of responsibility and commitment, some parents look at you as being out of touch and unreasonable for not falling into line with how they see theri lives and society run. We are patially burdened with irresponsible kids of irresponsible parents that are self absobed and over commited and many times lazy.

Typically our Eagle projects are a type of work that gungy cloths are the norm so Class A's are not even and issue. We did have one Eagle project late last Spring which was in the publuc eye, re-landscaping at tht local public library. Several scouts did some hours of work in at least their class A. The people in the community could see the local troop was active and contributing to the community which shed a good light on our troop and BSA in general. That to me creates a much large psoitive than the negative of breakin one of BSA's launrdy list of ridiculous, counter productive rules. I don't see an egle project as something outside of scouting, it by it's nature is a part of it, the scout is doing the project as a requiement to be fullfilled for a scouting rank and others in the troop are helping as a troop and gaining community service hours from it, it is part of scouting, this seems clear to me. A year or so ago, several of our scouts realized a very popular local animal shelter was in extreme financial trouble and did a small fund raiser to help them out. They even ended up getting a feature article in the local town paper complete with apicture of 2 scouts in class A uniforms presenting the funds to the shelter. The UC complimented us in seeing the article as it generated interest in several area troops and positive comments form the community, it put BSA in teh public eye and in a positve way wich was good for everyone. I guess we could have stuck to the letter of BSA's endless rules on this and not done any of this, the Animal Shelter would not have gotten the aid, the community would have not been reminded of the existance of teh troop or BSA and not public good will and recognition of the value of BSA and it's ideas would have been realized, but heck....we would have been sticking to BSA's rules.

It becomes confusing and I agree with Beavah about trademark law getting out of hand and purchasing the shirt. While I would not agree someone wearing the BSA shirt while trying to raise funds involving a raffle for a house of ill repute, one needs to draw the line at what is reasonable and the intent of BSA. And if I buy the shirt, where do I need to apply for permission to wear it ? At troop meetings and activites ? What if I stop in the local grocery store on a way to a meeting with it on and am seen donating into a kettle for the salvation army ? If I stop to get gasoline on the way to an activity do I have to take the shirt off when entering the station to pay unless I got permission ? My point is this can get ridiculous. Will I have my scouts wear class A uniform if we were to have a wet tshirt contest as a fundraiser (we obviously wouldn't)....no, would I have them wear it when we sell wreaths and candles in the fall....yes ! Rule 5 of the money earning application realates to not selling the merits of scouting as a method in selling products, yet it is one of the main selling points thay want scouts to use to peddle their overpriced popcorn. I think this gets back to leading by example. Rule number one is somewhat ridiculous, having a demonstrated need for the funds and not simply taking advantage of an opportunity because it is there. We have had and still sometimes get great fundraiser opportunities that come our way and we take advantage of them because typically at some other point funds get low and ussually at a time when there is little fund raising opportunity. We manage to stay out of the red and never keep any surplus long term, strike when the iron is hot. Our scouts have no idea of the money earning application and some of the rules BSA tries to put on the adults on fundrasing so they have no idea if we shave corners to be a litle more efficient with the adult volunteers we do get vs BSA's overburden of rules and paperwork. At the end of the day, we give our scouts a variety of appropriate and benefical fund raisers for us and the community where everyone wins. The scouts learn to make it on their own steam and many in our community are waiting for our wreath sale our candle sale, firewood, and some of the concessions we have run. The boys take pride in achieving their funds needs and re-equipping the troop and the community realizes they have an active and positive troop in the community. I'm sure some will hate to hear this but our troop has not done a money earning application in over a dozen years and perhaps longer, I have no idea who the scoutmaster was before the 2 previous to me so it could be even longer than 12 years. We have done the same fundraisers for the most part for years, they abide by the important cosniderations such as not infringing on a local merchant or competing with other nearby troops or doing something inappropraite or unsafe in the name of scouting etc. BSA wants you to go out and sell their popcorn with a uniform and sell the merits of scouting as a reason for the high price of the product, since that is AOK we wear uniforms and sell the merit of scouting and supporting the local troop on our fair priced wreaths.

Today we mourn the passing of a beloved old friend, Common Sense, who has been with us for many years. No one knows for sure how old he was, since his birth records were long ago lost in bureaucratic red tape. He will be remembered as having cultivated such valuable lessons as: Knowing when to come in out of the rain; Why the early bird gets the worm; Life isn't always fair; and Maybe it was my fault. Common Sense lived by simple, sound financial policies (don't spend more than you can earn) and reliable strategies (adults, not children, are in charge). His health began to deteriorate rapidly when well-intentioned but overbearing regulations were set in place. Reports of a 6 -year-old boy charged with sexual harassment for kissing a classmate; teens suspended from school for using mouthwash after lunch; and a teacher fired for reprimanding an unruly student, only worsened his condition. Common Sense lost ground when parents attacked teachers for doing the job that they themselves had failed to do in disciplining their unruly children. It declined even further when schools were required to get parental consent to administer Tylenol, sun lotion or a Band-Aid to a student; but could not inform parents when a student became pregnant and wanted to have an abortion. Common Sense lost the will to live as churches became businesses; and criminals received better treatment than their victims. Common Sense took a beating when you couldn't defend yourself from a burglar in your own home and the burglar could sue you for assault. Common Sense finally gave up the will to live, after a woman failed to realize that a steaming cup of coffee was hot. She spilled a little in her lap, and was promptly awarded a huge settlement. Common Sense was preceded in death by his parents, Truth and Trust; his wife, Discretion; his daughter, Responsibility; and his son, Reason. He is survived by his 3 stepbrothers; I Know My Rights, Someone Else Is To Blame, and I'm A Victim. Not many attended his funeral because so few realized he was gone. If you still remember him, pass this on. If not, join the majority and do nothing.

I hope you guys all realize that it is only 99% of lawyers that give the rest a bad name

I picked up one of the BSA units a year or so ago, mostly out of memories of when I was a scout and the men who ran the troop, they all had the red wool BSA jackets. Since I became scoutmaster it was a neat way of identifying with my past as a scout and trying to carry the spirit forward to today and my troop. The ones BSA sells are terribly overpriced if you ask me....$150 for what amounts to a plain, glorified shirt. I got mine off of Ebay for a third the price including shipping (USed but in good shape). I had no idea there were guideliens on the jackets too and frankly, it is a memento of my old troop and friends and ther things we did back then. I do have council patches and troop numbers on mine....for my troop from the seventies that no longer exists. I have several camp patches on it, all camps I went to as a kid, some long gone now. I do get interest and quesntions from the scouts about the camps I went to, the things we did and requests to hear stories as a result of the patches of old camps and I get interest from other scouters about why someone in Colorado has Greater Niagara Frontier patches (Western New York) and this leads into comparisons about scouts tehn vs today, camp experiences etc. Although my red jacket does not meet guideliens, it has resulted in many positive conversations with others young and old.

I agree with being obedient, however BSA has so many picky, far reaching, useless, counter productive micromanaging and intrusive rules it gets difficult to run a program and be compliant with all of it. We try to run a good program, keeping boys motivated to stay in scouts and feel a part of the team is a big part of the effort, the benefit gained from some troop tshirts and neckers yields a lot of positive benefits while holding costs down. BSA has it so you can't even stand still without tripping over another rule or guideline, if we can help increase retention, energy and troop and patrol spirit by stepping over this ridiculoous rule than this is one we will continue to step over.

I am a big one for reliability, responsibility, not accepting laziness and I fight the prevelant entitlement attitude in society and that has worked it's way into our troop. I also realize I can't fight every battle and since nearly all teh parents in the troop think there is nothing unussual about havng to cancel, or "ooops I forgot" etc, I have chosen to forgo this battle for a while. It is common to have nearly 50% of those in our troop drop out and maybe half that many sign up days before the event. I could try to fight this too, the irresponsibility really grates on me, but the idea that this is normal is so prvelenant amongst parents that I would be considered inflexible and out of touch if I chose to make an issue of it....pretty sad and pathetic isn't it. This is why patrol cooking won't work for us, the makeup of the roster that signs up is alwayys different that the roster that actually shows up. Boys who make a habit of late cancels get a talk from me, sometimes it includes their parents. We are implementing permission slips at sign up, they are a 2 part deal, one half teh parent keeps to magnet to the fridge as a reminder and it has contact info on who to reach in case they are not going to make it. the other half we get as an acknowledgement the parent knows of teh event and has bought in. This has helped a little but not much. I still get all kinds of BS about Johnny's team made the playoffs, or he siigned up for swim club and forgot it conflicts, or his brother is in from out of town, or he got an elk permit etc etc and they jsut expect me to understand. Yes this is another factor that helps wear one down and burn one out.

I have long been sick and tired of the expansive trademark issues. When some outfit wants to trademark words or phrases, things are getting out of hand to me. A company logo or marketing line I can see, but the list of trademarked terms on the BSA list is over the top. We have troop neckers and t-shirts done occasionally, small private shops, done on a cash basis, amongst friends (Small towns have their benefits). We don't, nor will we ever mess with waivers or permits for a simple BSA logo that is being used in a tasteful manner for items teh scouts themselves will wear. We are quite a ways away from council and I doubt anyone will come around inquiring about a couple dozen tshirts the boys have and if they do, no one will remember where we got them...."the old scoutmaster bought them years ago from some unknown source....now go away."

Myself,2 of my ASM's and the cubmaster in town are all firefighters on the same Volly dept. 3 of us recieved the medal of valour AND the medal of bravery from the state last year due to some serious calls we were on. Afterwards one or two people mentioned we might be eligible for a knot or two related to heroism or the like. I think there was a 6 month time frame to apply and that had expired but to me awards are for the boys to earn when appropriate, I am not in the program for personal achivement, if I am delivering a good program, the boys are growing and having fun and things function well and the adults like the program then I am satisfied. I don't think a knot or scout award is really something that applies to what occurred for us. Although we are not career/paid FF's we were just doing our jobs and what was expected, we all do numerous other calls, some far more dangerous than the ones we recieved teh medals for and we never even consider anything other than a recognition of "Good Job" from the chief at the scene. The call we recived the Medal of Valour for was a very sad and tragic one that made world news, honestly, we as FF's did not do very much on the call as it was largely a police situation. The medal of valour is the only good thing I have from it (even though I really did not do anything tremendous on the call) as my involvement has left me with mental scars that will never go away. I don't feel that I really deserved the medal due to what I did or did not do on the call but it is small compensation for the bad side I am left with in my head. I consider the house fires in the middle of the night where I have been on a roof over a fully involved attic trying to gain access and knock the fire down and they are routine, non medal events, I just go work the next day. The feeling of satisfaction from a job well done is all the reward we ever needed. I'd gladly trade the medal of valour for not ever having happened what did on a tragic day year or so ago.

We have a strong program, we meet twice a month and camp every month. One week of summer camp and we are offering a seperate high adventure camp for older scouts. Also offering one week camp for youth leadership (bighorn at Tahosa) Our older scouts ussually make one meeting a month due to time costraints from school sports, tia kwon do, homework, speech team, church related ativities....you name it.

Our Adult leadership and committee in our troop has been seriously talking about the idea of a large dues increase for next year and then backing off on the fund raisers. I am of mind that teh scouts need to earn their money and make it on their own steam, it is a major part of whrt they need to learn from the program. Reality is the fundraising is causing lots of damage and is taking away my time and others and the participation is dwindling. I absolutely hate the entitlement attitude and laziness amongst the scouts for the lack of particiaption and parents willingness to smooth those bumps out of their son's life by whipping out the checkbook, the problem is, this is the normal common behavior they see day in and day out by nearly everyone else thy know at school and the community.....it is almost impossible to fight overwhelming odds like that and when I do I end up getting bitter and angry about it. I try to individually encourage scouts (and somethiems their parents)with low scout accounts that they need to participate in any given fund raiser and my success rate is maybe 50-50. After showing that once they feel they did their part and drop out of sight fund raising wise. The lazy attitude still prevails and when push comes to shove the parents whip out the checkbook and the scout learns nothing. My wife asked me to back off on a couple fund raisers recently for a spell untill more help started to show up, a few scouts and their parents she has heard me say some really bad things about in private and she knows I am getting to hate these people for their cliuelessness and lack of aprticpation. For my own sake and the sake of the troop I had to back off my participation and learn to chill. We normally split profits 75% to the scout and 25% to the troop. Dues are $50 a year additional ($10 to council and $40 to the troop). We are considering cancelling candle sales for lack of particpation for next year and making just wreath and popcorn available but we are not going to push it or plan on much proceeds from it.....if boys want to participate that is thier decision. Jack the dues up to $125 but any fundraising they do the profit goes 100% to the scout. Anyone still short needs to write a check.

We found the names of the food distributers by a couple methods. One was looking them up as theri ditribution trucks are plainly viisible so we knew who to look for (Shamrock, Sysco, Alliance) we also live in a small town and checked the locla restaruants and they got us the names and contacts.

We did our first one a year ago and will do our second one next April. We approached food distributors (Sysco and the like) and that is where we obtained major donations. I think we had all the spagehetti and sauce donated plus big cans of mushrooms, oil, suger coffee and creamer all provided by the distributors.

99% of lawyers give the rest a bad name

All our council is offering to fill up the form is a patch. Not much incentive and we have the same scenario that many others see, Cubs love to sell popcorn and scouts don't, also popcorn is an easy sell for the cubs generally and harder for the scouts to do. We had no one fill it up but we did do much better thasn last years sale. We are in a rural area so door to door sales are a more considerable task than the suburbs. Of the 13 boys in our troop that bothered with popcorn this year, my 2 sons were the ONLY ones that had sales other than parents, relatives and people at the parents work as sales.

Here is some more. We Had Program planning and greenbar meeting Saturday (5 hrs but extremely productive) and adult leadership meeting Sunday (4 hrs and again extremely productive). The past 2 days I have been doing and updating paperwork and communications as a result of the meetings. I am not big on watersports, I will do them, one ASM and activity coordinator are whitewater certified. With the effort to re-equip the troop and the numbers of 14 and youngert scouts we did not put whitewater on the schedule this year but likely will in 2008-2009. Camping and hiking are mostly what I am into. Personally I ski and the boys always love to have it on the calendar once, ussuslly december when the holidays take so much time we just need a quick outing that does not involve packup and setting camp and the parents and siblings enjoy the outing as well. Committe....I beleive we have our ducks in a row now with a good group that is going to all pull in the same direction. CC....as mentioned, just came in from cub pack 9 months ago, enthusiastic and personable, si on disability so he has time to do what needs to be done, his son is super into scouting so I think he will be around a while. Merit BAdge/Advancement coordinator....She has done merit badge for 3 years and Advancement for 1, been in scouts since her kids were tigers. Her oldest is 17 and 6 months from his Eagle, yougest is 13 and is almost at Star, she will be around for a few more years, and is very happy with the troop, the adults and the scouts and the program direction more than ever before. Treasurer....A great man who moved up our way a year go, hsi son crossed over from cubs. He is a fantastic treasurer in every sense of the word and is into camping, he basically acts as an ASM making nearly all fund raisers and activities, even helps run several activities a year and has had loads of very beneifical ideas, many of tehm he has taken on as projects to improve the troop. We have 3 who are fund raising coordinators, one runs the popcorn program, one runs canle sales and the other runs wreath sales, all are brand new adult committee members but all have been involved with the troop with their sons for several years now and should be around for a few more. Secretaries....All have been Committee mebers for at least a year and will split the duties, all have sons who are Star and actively want to go to eagle, One does all the paper records filing and copying, one takes notes and some correspondance and form filling out and running the new "phone tree" we are implementing, the other (my Wife) does all the electronic stuff (Email dist lists, Roster, spreadsheets that track adult training, community service hours, driver license and insurance info etc). Activities Coordiantor....the last scoumaster....he specializes in Caving and white water and helping with the paperwork regarding summer camp. Both his sons have lost interest and rarely show up for meetings or activities, if we loose tehm we will loose teh activity coordinator as well. He did a good job buthas really stepped back from the burnout and terrible treatment from some adults. Hea nd I get along fine but he has mostly had it and his kids are doing other things now. Fundraising Popcorn Sales Wreath Sales Candle Sales Firewood (We do about 20 cords every fall) Spring Spaghetti dinner A couple concession stands at rodeo''s and local sport meets at teh high school.... $8000-$10,000 annually ASM''s (Not including the 2 inactive ones I have effectively lost with their sons moving on tho college) Tom.....On the fire dept with me, in it for the love of the program as kids are long grown, ino camping, hiking and white water, skis too, den chief coordinator, very dependable, can run trips independantly. Dave....new to us, he had a hart attack and has been busy this summer, an outdorrsman into camping, will focus on troop equipment that we need to revamp entirely, can run an activity with some help Eric....Just made Eagle and turned 18, very responsible and into the program, moved down hill and is running a tiger den in a cub pack there but stayed on as ASM as he loves teh way the troop is going now and does not want to leave. Mike....On teh fire dept with me, also very involved in church, time is extremely limited but will run a hike adn a bike trip this coming year for us Doug....Scoutmaster from 4 years ago, was SM for 8 yrs, came back as he likes the way the troop is run, had a heart attack in AMrch but is back helping run the troop and mentor the Eagle candidates. Terry....technically treasurer but is functioning as an ASM...can independently run an activty strt to finish. Fund Raising

Too much paperwork, there is more than enough already. This is mostly a boy issue, they know who is pulling their weight and who is not. I had a patrol leader, an APL and a scribe who did less than nothing the past six months, The Scribe was told at his BOR for Life in the spring that they would barely pass hiim for that badge as he had been inactive and not doing much to fill his duties. Since then it has only gotten worse. We are small enough so the AC as is almost everyone else, who shows and who is absent, from troop mmetings, activities and such. If a parent wants to complain I tell them it is the boy''s decision and if they want another chance they best have their sone get with the program, we don''t check off boxes on the way to badges just because someone wears a patch on their sleeve. The scribe in question personally is done with scouts, he is still on the roster as his parents want him to make Eagle, he could care less and wants to drop out. No coaching is going to turn this one around, he has a negative attitude too boot. The PL in question is one of the laziest kids you''d want to meet, I and others have tried coaching and encouragement with little to ne effect. He is one of those scouts someone needs to tell to do something over and over but forget about him taking any sort of independent action on his own or lead others when delegating a task. The boys are fed up on this one. The APL is a real problem, comes from a bad home and has been a serious problem in our troop. He won''t even do things when asked (unless an adult intervenes) but has Zero leadership skills. This scout has had intense coaching and help from adults he relates to and has made no progress either. Again the boys all see this, and we just had program planniing/greenbar. When we do this in the fall we re-evaluate youth leadership and they provide a new recomended leadership chain for the troop to vote on at the next meeting. The boys unanimously removed all 3 from their posts and replaced them with others we felt would do the job. AC knows these boys are under scrutiny at next BOR and SMR due to teh lack of leadership and in one case, active participation. This avoids the paperwork hassles. If some parent is not happy, I as are others, have no problem explaining what went down and thet their son is the one who dug their own hole. If one wonders why these 3 were in leadership positions to begin with, let me say the APL and PL were scouts we have been trying to develop and we thought we would try to see if enhanced position and leadership would cause tehm to advance in their maturity and growth....it failed. The Scribe was being pushed by mom to make Eagle and needed teh leadership spot, no one else wanted scribe and the scout told us he would start to be more active and make more meetings and do the job, he failed on the promise so he is out.

OK....some more answers..... Summer camp....youths always choose it, youths do presentations adn vote on it. This coming year we asked the boys stay in our home state. 2 yrs ago they elected to go to Alaska and the fundraising nearly killed the troop. last year is was a 10 hr drive each way to camp and we struggled to cover rides for all the scouts. Camp last year was Hunt in Utah as the boys were after some unussual water based merit badges. District commisioner is propsing a boundary waters trip in 2008 for a half dozen of the older scouts to keep them interested. Activty planning has always been by the boys but int he past there were almost no restrictions, 2 or 3 activites a month in addition to troop meetings, merit badges, community service etc. It was too much and about 3/4 of the time activities were cancelled. We are in teh Mountains and half the activities were suburban stuff that really does not belong in scouts. This year we have written down the boys suggestions and also offered ideas of our own and floated test ballons to gauge acceptance. Those things that seem to be very popular are on a proposed schedule for 07-08. It is all outdoor based and anyone wanting to do extras (College Hockey games, bowling and the like) are encouraged to do it on the side as a Family, "non Scout" event. This takes all the organizing and management out of the time buckets of the adults who have to set these things up. In the past our troop did summer camp, camporree and Klondike. They also did 1 or at most 2, 2 niters a year. Some Whitewater and caving, maybe a hike or two a year. Troop is set up with trailer for heavy camping, but we will be doing a couple short backpacking trips this year. Troop calander (If accepted) plans 7, 2 nite campouts, 1 summer camp, one day camp, one caving trip (Day long), 2, 1 nite camps, 1 ski outing and one day camp. Camping is all done pretty much in the rocky mountains, we have more camp areas than you can skae a stick at within 1 hr drive, plus trails and 14''ers to hike. Community service varies, some has been to the Contintal divide trail group, some to various projects to teh church and high school. We used to do highway clean up but the things we srtarted to find were sometimes dangerous (Hypodermics, meth lab remnants, bags of urine etc) so we stopped that a couple years ago. We have also asssisted teh US forset service and local fire dept and residents by piling slash after mitigation work. Scouts also help our Eagle projects (We had 3 this year). Me......I was a scout in the early seventies, I was a suburban kid and a bunch of my friends were in scouts. I wanted to camp and such and unless I joined scouts that was never going to happen so I joined. I stayed until I was about 15 and high school activities became the new priority. I was never in it for advancement, jsut campingand fun, I barely made Star (Back then, only 1 eagle required badge was need to make star, not 4 like today) I was a committee member of the local cub pack 4 years ago, when I came to the scout troop with my youngest son I was quartermaster, then a year later I stepped up to Actities coordiantor, about 6 months later I becamew Asst SM and 6 months after that it was up to SM. I have not done woodbadge or outdoor leader essentials but I have the book on the later, I have done leader specific training, safe swim, leave no trace, safe trek, safety afloat youth protection, fast start, dealing with difficult scouts, who runs the troop,cooking for groups, scoutmaster minute and developing youth leaders.....all in the past 18 months. We ask the scouts all the time, in scoutmaster reviews, in meetings, on campouts, in BOR''s about strengths and weaknesses in the troop. Honestly we are hearing nearly nothing as far as weeknesses, they and the adults like the direction and program, they like the focus oin the outdoors, the scouts like the adult team. The scouts used to sit in a big gaggle in chairs at troop meetings without uniform, although they sai they wanted to identify as patrols they squaked when I made them stand in patrols and squaked about uniforms, but within about 4 months tehy now tell me they prefer it that way. The also like the fact there is less on the calander but almost nothing gets cancelled, the outdoor focus although innitially griped about (They wanted to have their suburban comfort zone activites that they never supported in sufficient numbers causing cancellations) but now they allmost all love the outdoor program. Adult leaders, Previously the SM and hsi wife who was CC had a feud with the merit badge councelour. There was blame to go all around but this went on for years. The trip to Alaska almost tore teh troop apart, and long story short I inherited the troop with an $1800 deficit because of it. Of course you all heard the CC from hell story and that took much of my time for 9 months and prevented teh committe from functioning well. When I became SM the 2 ASM''s sons ahd made Eagel and they were burned out after 5 or more years, they work mostly ou of town now so for all purposes I have lost them, great guys who still help when they can. I recruited 3 new ASM''s, one a former eagle scout from teh late sixties who is on the fire dept with me, his kids are grown and he is in ti for the love of the program. One is the SM from 2 terms ago, he is our eagle Mentor, but had a heat attack and was away recovering for the better part of the year. Other ASM also had a heart attack and is coming back us after recovery....he was a cubmaster years ago. A new ASM is one of my Eagle scouts who turned 18, very responsible, also possibly another ASM recruit from the fire dept but his time is taken up and may be an issue. New CC just came into the troop with his son from a local pack after finishing arrow of light, very personable and loves teh program, Merit Badge and advancement coordinator ahs been doing this for years, does a good job, helsp on fund raisers and some activities, we sp;it the secretary duty 3 ways to ease teh workload, we are getting them trained and getting everything up to date this fall. We have 3 people handling fund raisers, and an large fund raisers are done by committee. I had to recruit a new Treasurer, teh old CC from hell ran him out and I got a Gem of a guy who moved up to our town from the front range, extremely personalble and responsible, he is at all activities and fund raisers and does a great job as secretary too. He is my right hand man and share teh same vison I do for the troop. Committee ges along now and should soon be all trained, with defined job descriptions and pulling in one direction. I have 4 goals for this year.....1 is to re-equip the troop, we are missing stuff we need and have far too much broken down antiques stuff so if we are hitting the outdoors we are doing it right. 2nd main goal is to get the scouts truely boy led taking action, making decisions, commmunicating running the show. Our Greenbar tomorrow is going to address this and point it out as a focus for the year, with training, mentoring and clear expectations. We are weeding out the dead wood and putting only those who will do the job, or are capable of it with some coaching and encouragement. 3rd is better organiztion, everyone doing their jobs efficiently, events planned for well in advance, schedules and meetings and projects set up and communicated etc. 4th is to set up some troop traditions, a number have been discussed we are ready to begin to implement. We want the boys to have a strong sense of belonging to something bigger and also feel tis is their unique group or troop and want to stay in it because it is truely theirs.