highcountry

I beleive that succession planning in a volunteer organization is extremely difficult. No one has to be there and if the percieved work load or politics or un-desirable factors are too much no one will step up and that is what frequently happens. The previous SM and his wife the CC tried the door will not open until these blanks are filled method once while I was still ASM. The result was several adult volly's who put their name in the blanks so everyone could leave but had no intention of actually doing the job and ther result was some troop critical functions going completely un done. At least in the working world thereis the incentive to promote and possibly get a pay raise as well, besides, nearly everyone Has to work so the threat of someone not doing the job or no one stepping up in a succession plan has some teeth. No one has to volunteer. I have watched the 2 local packs that feed our troop go through problems for the past 5 years due to CM succession problems. I won't go into all the details other than the most recent CM at teh one troop (he is a firefighter on the same department as I am)notified the pack over 6 months ago that they needed a new CM and he had no clear succesor to take over. The burnout and political backstabing that caused this man to make the decsion to be finished at re-charter also did not end. Now the pack is without a CM and the committee that remains is bewildered what to do. I myself took over our troop 2 and a half years ago as no one else was going to and the previos SM had no succession plan. The 2 ASM's he had were both nearing teh point of dropping out as theri boys made Eagle, one aged out and the other dropped out after making Eagle. Since then I have weeded through teh wheat and chaffe and now have 6 good SM's and a decent committee, yet I cannot see a clear succesion plan. I too have told the troop I am done as SM with the February 2010 recharter, yet no one is hinting at any interest. Of my Committee, my CC would like to do SM but he says no way as he can see how much time and effort goes into the job. My Treasurer is excellent but he is approaching some burn out and does not want the workload associated with being SM. No one lese on committee shows the ability or dedication to become SM although they do their current jobs very well. Of my 6 ASM's, 2 are Recent Eagles who aged out last fall and stayed on until going away to college as they enjoyed the troop so much. They mentor the youth leadership. Neitehr will be able to take over. A third ASM made Eagle a week before turning 18 2 years ago, an excellent and really dedicated scouter, great resource for ther troop in every way, yet he lives down the hill in town and is in college, he does not have a drivers licvense yet so pulling off SM would prove difficult. He would be my A choise to take over for me if not for those obstacles. ASM # 4 is a great help on activities and has taken training but due to other time commitments, I don't know that he can step up to all the demands of the job. The remaining 2 ASM's are fellow firefighters who had once been scouts but who's kids are grown. They are in it for the love of scouting but don't want to take the troop over once I am gone, they are there partly for what the troop is with me running it. One of the local pack's CM may be a candidate, his one son just crossed over to our troop and the CM appears to be an excellent candidate. I don't yet know if he is staying as CM or not yet. Would love to have him decide to take over the reigns from me next year. Anyway, that's my story and I'm stickin to it......

We used a different recipe, used italian Sausage and Ricotta, fresh parm and mozerella. Our boys took 1st place in the Dutch oven cookoff at TAhosa Camporee in October with it. No leftovers for sure.

Yes Beavah and evmori, the scouts keep the money they fundraise in their scout accounts, for use to pay camping, activities and the like, they don't take cash or use it for purchase of any personal goods, you are correct in assuming that, I thought I was pretty clear but some people appear to busy themselves looking for any opportunity to rant and tell others how they are wrong. If scouts drop out they can transfer the money to another troop if they have moved, otherwise it goes into the troop general fund. I can see in Evmori's response there is a snippet of BW's post, I normally don't see anything he says as I found out a while ago he has nothing of value to add other than stirring the pot with negative BS so I blocked his posts some time ago. Looks like that was smart on my part.

We charge $50 a year dues, $10 for membership the balance goes to fund troop overhead costs. Boys Life is extra. We have a local Utility that also donates about $800 a year and this also goes to troop overhead. Adult volunteers pay $10 annual registration fee. With 25 boys the $1800 a year comes close to covering annual overhead and leave some extra to cover equipment replacement or repair. We have re-equipped the troop since I took over 2 years ago as we had worn out junk at the time, this was mostly covered by donations by adult leaders and parents and some from fund raising. Campouts are a pay as you go deal, the boys know they have $3 per scout per meal cost on trips to plan for, fees for campgrounds, Klondikes and Camporees are added as appropriate. Scouts can pay for their events from scout funds or have the family write a check. We have had a terribel time getting the scouts to fund raise, since we can fund troop overhead independent of the scouts fund raising they get to keep 100% of the profits from fund raising to try and motivate tehm, so far it has not worked. This at least removes one more source of tension in the troop.....not meeting troop overhead expenses due to scouts not working much on fund raisers. We do popcorn and sell wreaths but scouts participation has been falling for several years. We talked up fund raising and I and other adult leaders have talked one on one to scouts who's familys are tight on funds and encourage particiaption with very little change in behavior. We also do firewood and this year it is netting out to a scout is able to make $20 per hour worked on firewood but interest is limited. They can't get a job near that pay scale and it is still hard to get them to come out, when they do come out, they burn out early....it is a depressing situation for me. I and the other adult leaders believe a scout should earn their own way but this is one of those loosing battles we are having second thoughts about. Many troops in our District and Council have told us they realized this battle a long time ago and quit with fundraisers, they do popcorn and let the families pay by check. We are having a committee meeting soon and this is one of the main topics. The firewood is a wonderful fundraiser as the boys get out together and work as a team, adults can get out and enjoy the fall days, however the wear and tear on vehichles, equipment and the large amounts of time away takes it's toll. Mine and many other wives HATE firewood as the husbands are gone a lot of weekend hours instead of doing house chores or having famiy time. Since we have overhead covered, I suspect we soon will forgo everything other than popcorn and part with the frustration of trying to get scouts to do fundraising.

I have 6 ASM's and 3 do not have kids in the program, those 3 are my best ASM's. 1 became Eagle 2 years ago, aged out and liked our troop and the program so much he stayed on as an ASM while he is in college locally. He is s huge supporter of real learning, leadership and responsibility, does a load of coaching, mentoring and counsels several merit badges. 1 is an Eagle Scout frm about 1970, is back in it for the love of the program. He is connected to the veeterans and also is strong on values, honor, responsibility and leadership 1 is the step son of teh 1970 Eagle ASM. He is big into the program, real learning and leadership, personal responsibility, his Forte is hiking and backpacking. I also am not worried about losing any of these great assetts when theri son's drop out of the troop as they don't have any in the troop !

evmori, I know my post was long and full of typos so sometimes they get a bit hard to follow. I mentioned "Scout A" was removed from the unit, in fact it was almost a year ago. When I took over the previous SM made an agreement Scout A had 6 months to keep his nose clean which he did. He also however missed many troop meetings and activities so his opportunities to "Mis-behave" were somewhat limited. This was also the same time period I was trying to "right the Ship" and get the CC out of the troop that was such a problem. After teh 6month time period was up he made a few more meetings and activities but kept his "mis-behavings" low key. I got reports afterwards (sometimes weeks delayed) that he would look and talk intimidating to the young scouts, things like that. It wasa Spring campout where he got so bad rough housing (He tried to disguise his bullying as rough fun) that my one son put him down with no uncertainty. I was not on that campout but heard about it afterwards. He then was inactive for 2 months but came to summer camp and was pretty good there. It was a September camporee where he peed on the tent and he ws immediately suspended for the October campout and given the final warning. He was allowed back to a one nighter campout in November where he was clearly warned he was on strict probation. Despite that he peed in the kids water bottle and when I found out ablut it I informed other adfults in the troop and he was informed he was out of the troop for good, we also let teh UC and DE know. That is how it went down and the reason things got delayed. Had I been SM when he pulled the knife(And probably long before that) I would have cut him off then and not made any deals with Grandma. Unfortunetalt I wasn't in that capacity and I was not part of the deal that happened. Hope this clears up the what and why about a pretty serious situation happened and was handled.

OGE, my posts are long enough but even at that I didn't give all the detaisl for folks to understand the story of the scout in question, yes he absolutely should have had membership revoked, I have not told all the details, but how it evolved...... Lets call the scout in question A. He had always been a trouble, picking on kids at meetings, campouts, mean attitude. He has been frequently suspended from school, has a patrol officer due to arrests for burglary, severe vandalism and othe things. A's mom is a drug addict in prison, A's dad is a piece of work to put it nicely. A's poor behavior pattern in the troop was established under the previous scoutmaster. A pulled a knife and threatened a scout from another troop in an out of state campout I did not attend 3 years ago. Previous SM told A he was out of the troop. A's Grandmother, the one who brought him to meetings, begged previosu SM to give him another chance as the troop was the only family A had and about the only chance A had to maybe learn to grow up right. Previous SM agreed but under a heavy list of conditions. Then a few months later I inherited the troop. As some have read I inherited a very dis-organized troop that need major attention and reshaping of every aspect of it, I was learning to be a SM self taught (Got trainings as they were available) and at teh same time had the battel with tehCC from helll that I described some time ago. This distraceted me from dealing with Scout A who was minding a bit and not beong a major problem. A few months before he was "removed" the peeing on the tent (He missed campiouts as a result), bullying started (My youngest son defended teh younger scouyts and flipped him on his back and told him to never do it again which he stopped for fear of what either of my sons were going to do next) then teh bottle peeing incident which I found out after his request for a SM review. The continued bullying, mean tactics and peeing on the tent was my refusal for him to get a SM conference and advance, the bottle was my reason to toss him out. Thats the reasons on how this all evolved. The 2 scouts I have coming up have had some warning, I told ASM's and Advancement coordinator that I was ready to yank both thier POR's due to non participation, they both said the better way is to bring up the problem at teh SM conference and tell tehm to try again in a few months after tehy improve particiaption and actually demonstrating leadership. The first of these scouts goes to no unit campouts, instead of summer camp with the unit, he goes to RAMS all on his own. We just had a Greenbar at the last campout and he drove over for the Greenbar (Which he talked with friends and paid no attention the entire meeting) and left as soon as it was over. I told him and his parents in May he needed to start to make meetings or he was not going to advance and I go the old "Oh well ya know...baseball" response. The other scout last went with us to summer camp 16 months ago, no activities since, he arrivees at meetings alte, leaves early and misses more than half the meetings. The ONLY thing he does as PL is hold the flag ! I just switched him to a Den Leader (He is soft spoken with kids his age but good with young ones) and told him he needed to participate and do his job or I would not sign off, I told him I took him out of the PL spot as he did NOTHING in the spot other than wear a patch. So thats some of the detailed background. Bothe the scouts I am having issue with have been warned that they better participate, show up and demonstrate responsibility and leadership which si what we are supposed to be teaching them and if they don't step it up, don't ask me to sign off so they can advance, THEY DO NOT DESERVE IT. I lety them know it is up to THEM to achieve and advance. As the way this "rule" has been portrayed, my old Scout A who finally got teh boot, could have gone to council and said one of the coaching/disiplinary talks we had was in fact a SM conference. Had I been over riden and that extreme troublemaker been advanced in view of the scouts I have that actually worked and earned and learned, it sends a bad message. If this "rule" removesmuch of the value of the SM conference why even have it ? "Hi Mr Scoutmaster, Hi A, how have you been ? Good, I have to see my parrole officer another 6 months as I got caught burglarizing a house.....Oh that's nice A, well look here, you don't know any of your scout skills, you are awful to have in the troop, you are learning nothing and you don't try, but since we talked I have to sign this and advance you along OK" How insane is that ? I am not trying to pick a fight with anyone here, but really, how CRAZY is this ? The book says I am supposed to sign off if we just had the talk, never mind teh kid is in no way deserving ? Milder example is the 2 scouts I have coming up soon. Gee I warned you and your parents you contribute nothing and are learning nothing, and you didn't change your behavior, but I rally cannot do anything about it as the "Book Rules" pull any teeth I have abd make me sign off just because we had "a conversation" never mind teh fact you are a do nothing and since several warnings continue to be a do nothing ? Again, insane scenario, and again, if the scout is un deserving, I am not allowing them on to the next rank.

I can certainly agree that an SM who has some personal issue with a scout or his family should not fail to sign off on a scout's advancement because of personal conflict. That is unethical and working outside what scouting is teaching, but I am talking about the more frequent problem os scouts who without a doubt are in no way deserving of an advancement due to behavior, lack of activity or worse, teh SM should be able to say NO, this individual isn't even close to derving at this time and needs to plan and implement improvement. If I am supposed to sign off just because the SM was held, why even have the conference, jsut sign off, the SM's signature has Zero value with that concept. I had a real trouble scout who thankfully is no longer with the troop, 18 months back he came to me for a SM review to advance. I had the SM review and pointed out his numerous serious issues and tried to get him to plan to improve. I did not sign off. How responsible is it of me as SM of the troop to tell this kid, that peeing in someones water bottle was wrong, peeing on a tent is wrong, beating up other scouts is wrong plus many many smaller issues were wrong, but sign off just because we HAD the SM conference. No way, I will not do it, it was not a personality thing, it's a right and wrong thing. The 2 scouts I have coming soon for SM conf's I am thinking of, never go on activities, are absent from meetings for months at a time, do zero leadership or their patrols, when they do make actvities they arrive late and leave early o avoid set up and takedown of camp, don't help or lead when there( Fooling arround together instead). I already told theri parents the patch on their shoulder does not advance them if they are not doing the job and when they come for SM review be prepared for me to request they show imnprovment and come back in a couple months. Bottom line I WILL NOT sign off for those who's actions and behhavior does not deserve it and no one can make me sign it period. What credibility would I have to sign off for a very poor scout when my exceptional scouts get the same sign off. What would I tell scout A who has gone over the top when he asks why I signed off on scout B who everyone knows should be kicked out of the troop for his actions and behavior. Soon other scouts realize they can coast and the SM still will sign off. Not a good message we are sending is it ? Again, at the end of the day it is a moot point, no one is standing over my shoulder to make sure I sign that off, I am making good decisions and if anyone challenges it I will deny any conference ever took place. No one can force me to sign it. This is not something held agaisnt indiivduals, this is doing what is right. The rule is dead wrong in my opinion.

We do COH 3 times a year, we have thought about 4 times but it is hard enough doing just 3 that we have stayed with the current plan. 90% of the time the scouts are craming last minute to finish rank and merit badges before the COH. Our meeting before the COH is typically a lightly scheduled meeting as we know many boys are asking for SM conference and BOR. We have tried to remind and suppor tpeople (scouts and parents) to do SM conf and BOR's early to work on badges as opportunities are available to have PL's coach theri patrol members and it is like trying to part the sea, we resolved to accomodate the way families are living their lives and schedule for the last minute cram that takes place every 4 months. In light of this, most all the time our scouts are getting the BOR and rank advancement in a couple weeks before teh COH anyway. Occasionally I get a new scout who gets more than one badge done between COH's this happens maybe twice a year and they jsut wait to the next COH...it has never been a problem to date. I have a prettylight committee staf, teh sdame person who is Merit badge coordinator is also Advancement coordinator. We gear to getting all teh badges and ranks done a couple weeks before COH, she does all the paperwork and records, goes to council and does the deal all in one shot. We would announce a scout made a rank at meetings but we BARELY get a SM minute and closing flags in the end of our meetings as it is, by the time we pack everything up and lock the door is normally a half hour after the meeting ends.....so cramming in any one small other thing is HARDto amke happen. As I noted, to date no one has had a problem with it and we function well as we have been.

Some of the things I am reading here are a tragic shame, be they the written rule or what, they seem to me to run contrary to what kind of young people we are supposed to be developing. As the rule is supposedly written is basically ludicrous and undermines what I as SM should be doing to develop youth. This is why I will not operate that way as I feel it is crazy to pass a scout off on a requirement for simply participating even though they failed miserably. I would hate to find my wife's surgeon got his credentials to operate because he particiapted in college but his grade average was a 36 ! To get around this by the BOOK I see one out....when an unqualified scout comes to me for a BOR, I can refuse and tell him the reasons and the areas he needs to improve and perhaps he should work with some of the experienced scouts in implementing that plan and that I am happy to support him. Then since I refused, there was no official scoutmaster conference so nothing to sign off. But what if I have a coaching session with a scout that needs development, if this is anything "Approaching a sm conference" by the book am I supposed to sign ? Based on the last post, what constitutes ANY type of SM conference ? If I speak with a scout on his progress or goals or development or needs and plan for improvement in a coaching and mentoring conversation, who is to draw the line if that was any kind of SM conference ? Given some of these scenarios, the ablility to guide the youth gets taken out of the SM's hands due to a very poorly written rule or guideline. Apply this scenario your place of work, your boss tells you that you did a good job on some project, you argue that was a performance review and he should have signed off on your raise and fight it, despite the fact your otherwise are a less than average employee and based on the BOOK the company agrees with you. This undermines your bosses ability to be an effective manager since the company can over ride him with counter productive moves, bet your boss will be looking for another job soon for a company that backs him up on the job they empower him to do. I have a couple scouts that I am anticipating will come to me for SM conferences soon that do not deserve a move up in rank and I do not intend to pass the buck to BOR to hold them back. Both are non participatory in scout spirit, attendance at meetings and activities, they simply do not do theri POR's in any way, thay have attitiudes, hang with thier clique and don't help out to put it simply. When they come around for SM conference I will be discussing these issues as an attempt for them to identify what they need to grow, and since they plainly do not pas muster there is no way I am signing the requirement, to do that is a dis-service to the standards of BSA, regardless of if a review took place. If they want to appleal it I will deny any SM review took place I would admit to a coaching sesssion. If Council or other wants to over ride me, my response would be to say thanks for passing along a scout who is not even close to meeting BSA expectations and requirements, why not hand him a couple merit badges for free since he says he think he did them. My last communication would be that since you know better how to run the troop than the SM who is here and knows the boys then you can run the troop and resign immediately. The pay's the same, why be second guessed over a poor rule when you as an SM are trying to develop leadership, responsibility and some adherenace to the oath and law ?

Some people have a huge amount of time on thier hands looking at the frequncy and short response time on their posts , especially it has been apparent the only other thing some seem to do is comb over and memorize every minute rule out there. Some people are best put on ignore poster when history has shown they demonstrate little to nothing positive to add. I think at least one poster can't let it go because deep down he realizes there are many out there that don't obey every single rule to the letter 100% of the time and that there is nothing he can do about it but rant and rave and make attempts to make himself look holier than those who are not all obedient. I think the realization he has no control over these rule breakers bugs him to no end and all he really has left is to pontificate about it on message boards. Again, if you ignore certian posters, their rants will never bother you. Other than that I am done on this thread, it has been going no where, I just thought I might sum things up for closure.

We have not bbeen to San Isabel but I suspect it might be quite hot. We have also done Alexander and the boys always love it and it is close to us. I have an ASM (Made Eagle with us 2 years ago and stayed on as an adult leader after 18) who was a counselor there and has lots of good to say about it. Our younger scouts are going to Alexander again this year. Peaceful Valley I hear has improved the past couple years, the food service used to be beyond awful but they mow have Sodexho that does a good job generally. Our scouts never go to peaceful valley though as we aere in the mountains and peaceful is out on the plains and is hot as the devil in summer. Us mountain folks are spoiled and stick with options up in the high country. Odd this gets brought back up, we just had our court of honor and a big campout last week and several boys brought up independent frustrations or concerns that all had to do with aspects of how unwilling, un bending and difficult Ben Delatour was to work with. Ben Delatour is a beautiful camp (Mostly) but they are too much of a hassle to deal with to be worth it. Some of the best camping areas (Broken Axe and others near by) were ruined as they had to wipe out the trees due to Pine Beetle last winter. Thier dining Sodexho) is very good but the water facilities are so small as to be almost useless. Look it up on google sattelite and you will see the rowing, canoe and fishing is too small to bother with. The "lake" (small pond) is spring fed and is alweays cold so it isn't popular for swimming with the scouts, besides it is about a mile to a mile and a half from the camp sites and is remote from all other activities as well. I would not chose them if scouts are interested in fishing or water sports.

Verbotten or not, scouts who are not trustworthy, not active and prove to be regulalry undependable are missing some significant parts of teh scout oath and law and therefore are sometimes asked to try and improve and come back for anotehr scout conference. I am not talking about the scouts who come to meetings and particiapte, come to activities (campouts) and saw theri end of the log, but miss on the communciations end occasionally, I am talking about those who are rare at meetings, alsmost never on campouts, bad with communications etc. There is no way they are getting a scoutmaster review sign off being near ghosts on cruise control when I have many others who pull their weight and do what is expected in the program. Am am not signing off on slackers, period.

Oh...yes and we do have a troop website, one o my excellent asm's keeps it up. Almost no one bothers or remebers to check that either despite constant reminders.

I'm with you, it is not only the email that gets blown off. The previous scoutmaster had the same issues and frustrations. I tried to step up communications and organize proceedures to not give anyone the excuse of "I didn't know". No one dares complain to me or other adult leaders about not getting information as EVERYONE is completely clear that we make contact clearly, in advance, with reminders and sometimes with follow up calls and paper to go with the scouts, announced at meetings and spare copies on teh sign up table. I sometimes wonder how some people hold jobs and mannage through life. We all get busy and miss getting, comprhending or returning communication from time to time but some people in my troop, it's the way they run thieir lives on a daily basis. We did a number of things, organizationally and policy wise to combat some of the non sense. 1. We have a permission slip for campouts, one we designed, adult signs and teas in half, they keep the bottom half to amgnet to the fridge since writing things on a calendar is a foreign concept to many now a days. Thier half has contact info in case plans change and tehy cannot make it so we know when someone doesn't show we are not waiting around. No Permission slip in 2 weeks before the event....scout does not attend. 2. Scout does not show for an event, they get charged the published cost for the event (Ussually food) from their scout account 3. Scout cannot go on event if there is not enough money in theri scout account to cover the event. 4. Signup for event cutoff is 2 weeks prior to event, no exceptions. 5. Scouts who are habitually absent or cannot bother to communicate don't pass the next scoutmaster conferenceor. 6.The parents who did grip about not knowing what was going on were reminded to check theri email or theur lack of follow up on voicemails left on critical issues. We puublish an annual calendar and there are hand outs as well. As I noted, even the biggest slackers know to not dare bring up gripes about not knowing as they are well aware how much we reach out with communication and nulify that bogus arguement.

This thread like many others similar revolving about rules and though should and thou must has become long and mostly non productive. It reminds me of the occasional reference I have seen hear and heard elsewhere that rules zealots spoil things and run off some scouts and volunteers. BSA can and continues to pile on so many rules it is hard to keep track of them all or be aware of them all except for those who have some warped ego bent on knowing the rules and telling others how they have it wrong, so counter productive to trying to do a good safe job and deliver a good program. For those who are rules hounds, the an be no end to how many ruiles and policies, some no matter how useless that BSA can add on, there is no higher honor to them that following every single rule to the letter is the highest priority. People like that don't change and I find the forums much more beneficial to put some posters on ignore. It is better than wasting energy with hardheads for arguments one is never going to win, in aprticular, on an internet message board.

Since I took over as SM 2 years ago and from my experience as ASM for a year or so before that I have learned a lot and evolved in how we approach patrols. We tried a number of things that did not end up working and had to change from where things were when I took over to where we are today. When I took over, the previous SM only had patrols in name, the scouts did nothing as patrols, they sat in chairs with their buddies at meetings, not in patrols, some of the PL's had bad attitudes and were in their closed cliques. As a result advancement was very little, retention was terribe with new scouts and meetings were dis organized, campouts were few, more than 2/3s of activitiew were cancelled for lack of sign ups. We immediately had teh patrols stand in a group at meetings, and evolved to camping and buddy system in patrols. We tried a variety of things for youth leaders and patrols and finally settled on a fornmula that works. 1. The boys can elect, but the SM and ASM's have final say on youth leadership. Giving he boys their say and buy in is great but we had a number of non functioning youth leaders and it made it difficult to get teh troop functioning properly and hindered boy led ideals. Adults ended up taking on WAY too much. When positions open up, the SM generally appoints a youth with the work ethic, responsibility and leadership skills to have the troop function properly. 2. Boys aligne dthe patrols but SM and ASM's made a few adjustments.....breaking up closed cliques was not a priority but keeping teh goof off's in seperate patrols really helsp things 3. The non active (Ghost) scouts go into a seperate patrol. We have 6 boys who signed back up last recharter who are never seen, they get put into an extra patrol so theri lack of participation and attndance does not effect a viable patrol. These scouts obviously care less if they make it and we could care less if they do as they are not having any effect on the troop. 4.We found that re-aligning patrols caused confusion and we spent many months trying to get patrols to identify and function instead of moving ahead with patrol method. We would still have kids hanging with the wrong patrol 6 months after re-alignment and patrol leaders still clueless of their roster moths after election even after being handed theri patrol roster montha fter month. Some scouts never did change their patrol patches. With this mess, it was hard to get them to plan and meet and do things as a group to jell as a team. We add members in as we get new scouts but keeping the core patrols together once they are set, used to each other and working a sa team was key for us. 5. we limit the number of positions of responsibility. We got tired of scouts and parents asking for a position once the scout made 1st class so they could advance to Star. We finally changed teh mentality to getting that "checkoff" to one of gaining enough work ethic, dependibility, leadesrship skill and participation that they are trained, earned and ready for one of the fe positions to open up. It helps rally deliver the teaching of leadership and responsibility and helps us meet the goal of boy led troop. We found the Scribe, Historian and Librarian positions were teach boys no useful skills so they got aboolished. The Den Chiefs on a given year function as troop guides once the Webelos cross over to help the new boys who transitioned ans they have built a relationship, we don't have seperate troop guides. We do not have an instructor as we finally got the olders scouts to accept that it is up toa ll of them to help lead the young, and not demand an older scout high adventure program to keep them entertained.

Communication is always a major headache in our troop. We use email a lot as we can forward and reply, add attachments and there is a time trail on when communication was made, where you don't have that with calls unless someone is dillegent about making notes about the calls they make and recieve. Email unfortunately has a terrible rate of response, it has been this way with other groups I have been involved with as well, it is nothing new to scouts. parents either don't open theri email very often, don't bother to read, forget, don't feel like responding etc. We have about 30 on our emil distribution list and if I ask for important feedback, I am lucky to gt one response, if I get two I am floored. Anything of a critical nature, we have a phone tree, SPL, and ASPL's drive it down to teh PL's who contact all in theri patrol and return teh tree with feedback where required. We make sure they reach someone live as about 50% of the time people feel it is optional to return voicemail ablout fairly important issues. Pesrsonally I get very tired of many adults thinking it is fine and dandy to simply say I'm busy and I and otehr leaders are supposed to understand and compensate for their lack of respsonce. Unfortunately this alloof attitiude in the parents is fully ingrained in the youth and it requires a non stop battel to get most of teh scouts to follow up, take responsibility and do things for themselves. They are so used to ignoring things and saying later "oh, I was busy" and think that is the end of it.

Not a tantrum, sorry you think it is just fine for council to keep asking volunteers to make up for their repeated failings while not fixing it for 8 years apparently. You seem to have plenty of problems having rants and tantrums with everyone who doesn't embrace and adhere to every single nit picky rule that BSA or camps or councils foist on volunteers no matter how useless or contrary to common sense. You do it here dailey but when you are called for your ranting, that is OK right ? If there is one thing that certainly helps chase away volunteers and scouts it is know it alls who's apparent sole purpose is to constantly point out how the others are doing it wrong and how they are rule book experts and know are holier than thou. The situation is absurd and your proposal that one should cheerfully roll over and keep making up for council's inability to do a basic function is not consistant with the things we are supposed to be teaching the scouts. So when does this scenario get beyond reasonable for you ? when they call every month with lost data requests? Do you keep doing the same thing over and over hoping for different results ?....You know what the definition of that is right ?

It doesn't matter if it takes 5 minutes or 5 hours to send council the information, it is beyond pathetic they loose the records 5 times in 8 years. To wait this long to make a decision that the national database is not working and they should consider alternatives is a sign of incompetant management. So to be a good scouter one is to be obedient and be helpful at all times. Does this mean it is still OK for them to loose your records 8 times in 8 years, how about 20 times in 10 years, where does this mentality end, as one needs to always be helpful and send that information along as an obedient scouter ? That kind of scenario is ludicrous ! At what point do you say enough is enough. To me, if council loses my records 5 times in 8 years and expects me to keep facilitating their incompetance by asking me to keep backing their failings up is crazy. They are the ones with the problem, they are the ones moving at Glacial speed to fix it or even make a backup record! I'd have a some self re self respect and ignore them. If they can't/won't fix their problem in nearly a decade, why do you have to keep backstopping for them. I'd let my DE know the story and if they got sticky about it, I'd keep my ASM's but not register them next year. I'd also tell them we are too busy when FOS calls to ask for more funding. If they keep having people cover their mess they will continue to drag thier feet in fixing the mess. "Supposedly" just sending the data in and not being upset about it is "Mature".....to me, to do that you are letting yourself be used as a Doormat. We expect our scouts to show personal growth and increase in levels of responsibility but Council gets a pass on this right ? Or with this sort of mindset, I suggest it is OK to drive a scout home from 5 out of 8 campouts to get his sleeping bag he keeps forgettting to bring. After all a Scout is helpful at ALL times....we should not expect him to learn or change anything, it is up to us "mature" scouters to cover his mess no matter how many times he repeats it. Obsurd.

To the original poster, you are definitely not alone in how you feel. I think between the piles of rules BSA has (Some of little value) and some people's perception of what is or is not permisible (right or wrong) it also seems to me there are far too many don'ts or hoops to jump through sometimes. For the most part we can thank all the complainers, filers of suits, lawyers, media pressure and bad behavior before that has created teh need for BSA to protect itself with more and more proceedure, policy and rules to cover itself. I am certainly for being safe and trying to run a good program, have the scouts earn theri way, earn their acheivements, learn and grow and all teh goals we should be after. But there are many seemingly pointless rules or rules that are too far extreme in what can and can't be done, restrictive and time consuming busywork that go beyond safe or proper, they seem to go to the point of micromanaging details asuming all leaders must be idiots so we need to verify evey t is crossed the right way before people can proceed. It is sad as was pointed out that simple harmless things that had a small bit of value are cause for worry now. The example of talking to a scout on a SM review and taking a walk in the woods briefly being off limits now due to Youth Protection policy (We can thank the molesters that brough this on). I have an ASM who can only take one scout to campouts with him even though he has seat belts to accomodate two, the reason....he has a pickup with a stick shift and bench seats and there is worry if he bumps a scouts leg when shifting is there going to be an issue. I have had some scouts that do a great job from time to time but I need to refrain from giving them a pat on the shoulder etc. The list of skits and songs kids can't do at summer camps is way overboard, our boys started to sing the old classic "Great Green Gobs" at a summer camp not long ago and were told ewven it was not appropriate .....why ? So they are bored eith the lame skits and songs done at camp, no wondr most of the scouts in my troop have no interest in skits and songs with anything remotely funny and beyond kindergarden level, the material permissible is way below their age group. We live in the mountains, our scouts were 5 year olds with cap guns climbing amongst rock hideouts playing cowbys and Indians, yet at 11 and older, at council, district and summer camps they need to take a climb safely course to be able to climb rocks shoulder high, they find this a joke. The famous old Lazertag ban was also a joke, we simply did this as a non scout family event, same with paintball when we used to do it, no scout funds used. We only recently got a troop secretary (I did not have one for 2 years and those tasks fell on me and a few others) so we had to try and minimize our paperwork burden. We are also fortunate that we are far out from council so that gives us a little more freedom from being under the microscope. Our Council does not require local tour permits if you are in district, and with the cost of gas and difficulty getting parents to drivve we made all our campouts in district to eliminate teh tour permit paperwork and driving issues. The rights to logo issues etc are a hassle but again, nbeing distant we had patrols design neckers and t-shiert that were tastefull and local shops do them up, no approval hassles. I just found out who the scoutmaster was 3rd previous to me, and he never did fundraising apps either so it has been at least 20 yeas since our troop did one of those, we alaways have done the same fundraisers and they are not a problem so that is more un needed regulation we streamlined out of the program. I'm sure wwe violated more rules getting food donations for a concession we ran a few yars ago and a spaghetti dinner, but hey were well done, the boys made great money and the community was impressed, local business, many of whom we know personallly were overjoyed to assist the troop. Bottom line, I'm sure we busted a few of BSA's rules here and there but we provided a safe program, one that has motivated and engaged the boys and help them grow as individuals and that is what we are after. I also understand the oat concepts of honest, trustworthy etc but at some point the drive to obey evey minute rule to the letter needs to be weighed vs common sense. In my opinion there are too many rules and some far too extreme and some of this does place more burden on the unit volunteers and can take some of the fun out of it for the boys.

We just went to Ben Delatour, I would definitely NOT recomend them. They are difficult to deal with on almost every item large and small. Add to this the normal hassles of dealing with Scout camps and in Colorado (Burdensome medication policy and med form policy that has changed frequently in recent years). We overbooked by a half dozen scouts (Long story) they told us that if they sold some of the surplus spots we overbooked to other troops they would refund some or all of our money, they filled most of the spots, even asked us to use one site we paid for for a Texas troop that had more show thn originally booked and we said fine, afterward they told us forget any refund...they got paid twicce for several scouts. Some of the merit badges in the nature center were poorly done (more than one counselour). At the Wednesday Scoutmaster meeting they asked for suggestions on improvements that could be made, for every single SM that offered a situation and solution they had an answer how they tried something different once and it didn't quite work so they were defaulting to the status quo....then why ask for input ? They have a poor contract with the "honey dippers" so they don't get good sevice on teh overfilling nasty latrines, they offered excuses instead of solutions on that. Almost evry little thing was a problem....asked for a camp counselour to join us so we could do some boards of review...."sorry can't" (Other camps have been enthusiastic helping with this), go to buy something as an adult at the store with a debit card..."sorry, without your drivers license we aren't allowed to put the sale through", can yu make change for the phone ? ....sorry, not allowed to do that. My son's project won an award and you mistakenly gave the award to a kid in another troop...."yes we goofed but it is too late, sorry can't do anything now". I can give more examples but you get the idea. They are simply hard to deal with and they stole money my scouts earned, we will never camp there again. FYI, the mess hall was good, camp is beautiful but Pine Beatles have taken a toll int eh past 2 years. Waterfron ativitys and badges are lsited but they are minimal at best. They have a very small pond not even worth putting a rowboat or a canoe in, it is very distant from the campsites. No one in our troop or any troop I talked to caught any fish there at all so if you take one of those merit badges you will be finishing it elsewhere. Shooting sports are good but many kids take archery so many scouts run out of time/opportunities to score to compplete aschery and sometimes Rifle and Shotgun.

Being a firefighter has had some blessings on the side...this area is one of those. Both my boys have heard calls in progrress on the radio, know kids who were involved in wrecks and have been on scene at a couple of incidents. They have seen and heard things most people would rather not have haunting their minds, but they have HUGE respect for driving and will probably err WAY on the side of caution.

Summer camps have been a problem for us and it relates to many of the observations I have posted about previously on other threads. Difficulty with parents, parents who don't tune into communication, fickle plan changers, kids who need the money most raise the least funds etc. Add to that the summer camps want payment in full pretty early, And I am told this is to combat the increasing observation of "too busy" people procratinating until the last minute and it gets worse. I am not rally hot on catering to the older scouts, as when I have allowed them to put activities on the schedule they say they want, I rarely get them to sign up, same deal with summer camp, they sometimes talk a good talk and get a selection they want but when sign up time comes they end up taking a summer job, get on a summer baseball league or want to go and shoot all week at RAMS. Ihave a high number of 13 and under scouts and it will be even more so summer of 2009 so we are planning accordingly. 2 summers ago the previous SM steered the scouts into a very high price, long trek and it resulted in me inheriting a troop $1800 in the hole. Summer of 2007 we went to a low cost camp 500 miles away and the gas bill was $1300. I hate to see what it would have been this year and wouldn't risk that exposure for next year. Add to all this the fact it is like pulling teeth to get parents to drive, we had bad parent driver commitment issues this year and camp was only 2.5 hrs away ! To eneable myself to stay with the troop and actually have fun (And a few of the other active adult volunteeers) we are selecting a camp 1.5 hrs away for the general troop summer camp. Low cost, less driver shortage problem and less gas. If they can't be motivated to raise money than it is withing reach to write a check, it's not a battle I am going to fight any more. The older scouts can choose Rams, NYLT or 4 day high adventure at Tahosa. Denver area council offers a Philmont contingent in 2009 and I have made notice a few times but no one has inquired.

This is a difficult requiremetn to address somewhat as there are fewer areas where a scout troop might mobilize and assist in an emergency situation. We live in the Colorado Rockies and myself and 2 of my ASM's are firefighters and understand what emegency situations we face, how they go down and where a troop might possibly preform a function where they could realistically mobilize. In this day and age, the lawyers and liability with trained first responders, teh BSA is not going to get called out to handle any tasks of any significance. About our only large threats here are a mass casualty highway accident or a Wildfire. Our department has 2 mass casualty trailers, one is a communications command post, the other is a mass medical supplies trailer. For part one of the requirement we explain to the scouts how our dept uses these resources and gives examples of incidents and how they worked. Part 2 is a group discussion on how the troop could mobilize in about the only scenario we could imaging using BSA to support in a large community event....assist at teh small animal shelter. When we have larger wild fires and areas have to be evacuated, temporary animal shelters are set up by SPCA and the Humane society. The scouts in our troop could serve there helping feed, water and care for small animals (Cats and dogs etc) who are at these temporary shelters during the evacuation. We don't actualy do a mobilization, but we dicsuss how it would be done, letting the scouts walk the adults through steps in the process, from phone tree notification, comunication with the organization running the temporary shelter, to safety, shared duty schedule and what tasks they woud do, a reporting/organization structure etc. We don't actually get small cages and borrow cars and dogs to feed as that serves no additional purpose.