heartofbrightstar

A hasty entry means a quick apology. I couldn't get the file posted earlier to work the first time, so I thought it was broken! Sorry about that! I can add that if you want to sing it as a round, the 2nd group comes in at "flashing like silver".

PLEASE don't sing it to "Itsy Bitsy Spider"! Horrors! This is a favorite song of Naish Staffers, we always sing it at the end of campfires during summer camp. I can't sing, but here is a midi file, so you can at least hear the tune. http://songs-with-music.freeservers.com/paddle.html

Lisabob, where are you at? Here in the greater Kansas City area, we offer a weekend COPE/climbing instructor training course once or twice a year, depending on demand. Unfortunately, this year, it was in May. Jayhawk council, next door in Kansas, sometimes offers one also. The Saint Louis council used to have one, but they go in with us also. Todd Whitely and John Cookingham have been the facilitators, both for the instructor course here and camp school. If you have a camp school trained director, they can train instructors (I THINK-CONSIDER THIS A DISCLAIMER). Spanish Peaks council also used to have a course. Everyone is right about climb on safely only being a safety course, not a training course! I asked around and didn't hear of anyone else doing anything similar.

Thank you! Also to Dancing Fox who emailed me separately with a PDF file. I lurk more than I post, but I knew I could depend on Scouters! I copied the directions and have them in my planner for tomorrow. We have 28 participants and we are pumped! Thanks again for all the help.

Nope-that's why I hollered. I haven't done this part of the syllabus in a while and the person who did it last time is out of town. I have an extra puzzle and pieces. I remember that it didn't quite play like "snakes and ladders". I was just hoping for a quick reply.

I am teaching this on Saturday and I don't have the instructions for the game. Does anyone here have them? Thanks!

I like using the boxes that reams of paper come in, they have a seperate lid. I use piano wire for the shelves and just wind it in and out of holes cut in the sides of the box.I don't make more than 3 shelves. That has created enough venting. For a window, cut most of the lid out, cut open a Reynolds turkey bag and spread it over the hole, using duct tape,tape the edges down, inside and out. I think you are better off putting the charcoal on an elevated surface, about 6 inches high. My husband is a machinist and made my platform out of steel. Before that, I just put a disposable pie tin on roofing nails driven into the ground at the height I wanted. I think you also have to assume the charcoal is hotter than ususal because of the closed in space. Absolutely, use the Reynolds wide heavy duty foil! Nothing else like it! (I really don't work for Reynolds ;})

Boy, did you guys get it wrong! No, it is not boy led, but boy participation is very strong. Anyone who is active in Mic-O-Say knows that. Nominations are not only by members, however, it isn't public knowledge how nominations are done, nor will I share it with you, because of the number of boys I know visit this site. The Tribal Council is basically a committee of adults that works with the boys, councils youth, and take care of the "back side". You know, like OA has adults at the national level. Again, none of the boys that are in it feel cheated by the adult involvement. I dont know where those numbers of active participants at the various ages come from; but only sixty-fve eightteen year olds? There are more than that standing around at any ceremony! OA and Mic-O-Say started around the same time. H. Roe Bartle wouldn't let National change the program and they went with OA. I am a member of both OA and Mic-O-Say, and while it is true that OA didn't get off the ground here, it was mainly a split due to the state line. Kansas troops went to Camp Naish and did OA, Missouri troops went to Bartle and did Mic-O-Say. OA involvement is growing by leaps and bounds on the Missouri side of Kansas City, and more and more people are in both. The only conflict is with people who feel like you have to choose. The main conflict is you have to go to camp at Bartle to do Mic-O-Say. OA offers opportunities throughout the year. Most of us feel that both programs compliment each other. I know there is still some hard feelings between the two camps, but even that is not like it used to be. I wish you all could come and see Mic-O-Say. The same dedicated Scouters are in both.

This happened in my council and at one of our camps. I was at Roundtable this week, and there are a lot of questions about what happened. We are all puzzled about the family's statements as well. There was quite a while between the first incident and when the boy talked to the chaplain, and he apparently didn't act all that upset. I do know that the kid accused of the initial contact was sent home the next day, and the other kid was counseled by his troop leaders and other trained staff at camp and choose to stay. He wasn't "sent" back to his tent. All the steps were followed. It was reported here in KC, rather than in St Clair county, which is apparently what upset the family. Now, I have friends on staff, and that is what I was told, so... A lot of people know which troop it is, cos when a kid comes yelling out of a tent, it is hard to not have it be obvious which troop it is. And you know how people talk. He didn't have a family member at camp, and they were told by phone. I will let you all know when I hear.

I hope I am not too late getting an answer for your thesis. For girls, I wish they had the same program too, because from what I hear from girls I know, Girl Scouts doesn't offer the same program. I know they could have it, it just doesn't happen. We have some Venture crews that are co-ed and very successful. One of them was featured in Boy's Life. I would like to think that girls wouldn't hang back, but reseach isn't giving me much hope in that area. So maybe having separate programs in the younger years is better. Not that an good leader can be either male or female, for either girls or boys, if they are trained. (Does my being a trainer show?) On women, well, here I am, and have been for fifteen years. I don't think there has ever been a better program for kids, and I want to do everything I can to keep it that way. I have two sons, and started with being assistant den leader with the oldest...he's now 23 and my youngest is 19. I read the thread about having women on campouts, and finally had to ask some of the boys in my troop, and all I got was a blank stare. Diego said, "Why wouldn't you come?" When I explained about the post, he was really puzzled. I guess it's because I am who I am, and what I do.Not that I am super Scout, just me. My being female hasn't been an issue with the boys. Any objections have come from adult male leaders, not the boys. I have always gone on campouts, and to summer camp. I am not going on the campout next weekend, and that is unusual. I will tell you that I have been the only woman in my troop for the five years I have been in this troop. Not one of the moms has had any real interest. But we have dads that don't do anything either. I think my answer is if you have a person who is willing, gets trained, wants to be part of the program, and SHOWS UP, take them. Gender is such a small part of what it takes to be a good leader. That's what I consider myself to be-a leader. Not a mom, or a girl, Just like the men, we have to put that aside, and do our job. It's only an issue when someone else makes it one, not to me.

In answer to Borninthe60s, OA doesn't have any ceremonies at Bartle, but we have had boy chiefs in OA sit up with the chiefs during ceremonies. I assume that like all smaller organizations, we are worried about being absorbed. I hate to say it, but so far, the "cheerful service" that OA is supposed to be about is absent in my experience. Like a lot of troops, we went to Naish for Tap Out, and inducted a considerable number. We sent a boy to round table to be the OA rep from the troop, and not once have we ever heard about any service. There are work days at Naish, just like at Bartle, maybe that is where it happens. No, Mic-O-Say is not boy lead, but you probably didn't see all the firebuilders, tom tom beaters, runners, shamans, ect that are youth. There is a time factor for every paint responsibility, so no, you won't have any boy chiefs. That is not part of the structure. As the parent of a boy on staff for four years, I can tell you they work very hard(along with every boy camper that is available)to make camp work. I really think OA has potential here, and I would love to go somewhere else where it is the primary honor camping society and see for myself. As for the viewpoint of Mic-0-Say being more focused on advancement within the levels and on personal advancement, I can only say NO! Being a Tribesman is like being an Eagle, you are charged to give back more than you recieved. Why the intense loyalty? I think the fact that adults also have a role gives it tradition and continuity. They boys see the the work that tribesmen do, and how long they stay in, and they want the same. Boys wait impatiently to get in, and are immensely proud when it happens. Because there are boys every year who would appear to eligable and don't get in, you don't get so much of the "popularity contest" aspect.Everyone is either a warrior or honored woman, with additional paint responibilties.The "higher" you go, the more work!

Yep, only in Missouri. So many tribesmen have moved to other places, and used the program to start their own version, but most have used a different name. I saw a group with the same name on the east coast, but it is not the same.Here is a pretty cool web site with some pictures from a troop that goes to Bartle: http://www.pleasantheights.org/ScoutCamp2001.htm or my favorite site, cos its done by one of the youth staff:http://www.geocities.com/aglmus/staff.html. You can also find the Hub for the ring. Again, I go to Bartle, and there is also Camp Geiger in Saint Joseph mo.

Greetings from H. Roe Bartle! I really thought someone who's been around longer would get to this before now, but here goes. Yes, we keep the ceremonies and traditions a secret, but with up to 1200 people attending at a time, it's not a "closed" secret ceremony. We allow any concerned parent to come, but boys aren't allowed in til they are members. You won't find anything about us in official literature because we are only in two locations; Bartle in Osceola Mo, and Geiger in Saint Joseph. National knows all about us. When the national camping committee comes to evaluate us, they are always in amazement at the sheer numbers that come to Bartle. We camp 1500+ every session, and we camp six sessions a year. We have a waiting list of adults waiting to be unpaid staff at camp.We routinely take an average of 1 adult to every boy! The best thing about Mic-O-Say is that as soon as you are a member, you can be active for the rest of your life. Boys recieve "paint"; responsibilities such as Runner, Tom Tom Beater, Shaman, ect.I guess that is the personal growth side. Adults can also recieve paint, and take on jobs such as Sachem. All the ranks have jobs that are administrative as well as tied to ceremonies. Even adults without paint work at camp, in a variety of capacities. While we don't have activities such as winter conclave, you will find tribesmen working at Bartle throughout the year and serving in all areas in Scouting. OA has had a hard time competing with Mic-O-Say here in the Kansas City area. For many years, troops on the Kansas City went to Camp Naish and did OA, Missouri troops went to Bartle and did Mic-O-Say. Now OA is growing, partly because our new scout exec is OA, and very active. He is also a tribesman now.

Sorry I got in on this a little late, but I wanted to give Weblosmom some support and perspective from an active female Scouter. I have been active in Scouting for 16 years, 9 of those as a Boy Scout leader. I have encountered the same attitude, and they don't have a leg to stand on. They are hoping that you will just go away. I had the same situation and it got to a senior scout exec, and he came to visit the troop I just left, after the Scoutmaster took me to one side and told me "confidentially"that the boys didn't want me to go to summer camp with them. He did it on his own. I found out later that the boys thought I was the one who didn't want to go to camp. That was eight years ago. I am active at the district level as well, and starting with some of the council activities. I am also an member of OA, and Mic-o-Say. Now that's a bastion of male dominated domain. And you know what? It's not a big deal with most guys. If you want to be part of the greatest organization in the world-go for it! Get registered, get trained, and show up! I will not tell you that they will be your best friends, but you are there for the boys. BUT... really want to do it. Don't be half-hearted, cos everything you do will become a measure for every other woman who comes along. And it will be too hard if you don't love it. And I promise, you will reap rewards like no others. When you see a boy succeed at knot tying, or fire building or getting that Eagle...you will know why we are so passionate about it. Yis Carole