Hawkrod

Thanks Eagle92, I appreciate the thought process, I just question the details. The red epaulets were the best example I could come up with because the National employee showed me a letter telling them that they were no longer to be used and that the new green was the only color that signified the Boy Scout program. The old red ones were to be destroyed and units should not be using them. The person went on to explain that insignia is not the same as uniform and so the once a uniform always a uniform did not apply to the epaulets and they were not to be used. Our unit gave up their beloved red ones and purchased the green ones. This was an issue for us as our units colors are black and red and we have flags, neckers and other items that prominently feature the black and red. jblake47, I appreciate your comment about various components and we see it often. The only comment I would make is that the hat versions are not a specifically required uniform item and the local units choose which hats they wear. It does not matter if it was once a BSA hat if your unit does not approve of that particular hat. In our unit the boys chose berets for formal wear and stetson for camp/outdoors and those are the only approved uniform hats so that is what the boys MUST wear. From the uniform inspection sheet: "Headgear. All troop members must wear the headgear chosen by vote of the troop/team.". Because the troop has voted and choosen which hats are approved and when, no other hats are an option while in uniform. I realize this makes me sound like the uniform police but it is not my rule, it is the rule of the unit, choosen by the boys, and they all enforce it. Thanks

In the Jambo Patch thread, VigilEagle04 wrote "As for the uniform police, if it was once official, it is still official." I have heard this many times and have seen people post it but I am curious if anybody can tell me where it is shown in BSA documents? The subject came up and it was pointed out by a BSA National employee that any uniform is okay but that insignia are a different issue and the same rules do not apply. Specifically the issue came up regarding red shoulder loops but the comment in the Jambo patch thread got me to thinking about it. Where is it written? I regularly wear a 1970's summer weight shirt that has a 1973 council R/W patch. Except for the R/W, the patches on the shirt are all current including flag location and World Crest and of course there are no epaulets. I love the shirt since it is so lightweight (we are in the Mojave desert) and so I tend to wear this one a lot (I have several shirts). I see others wearing current shirts but without the appropriate insignia (or worse, the right parts in the wrong places) and I know that the uniform inspection sheet and the IG cover most of this but I don't see anything about old stuff anywhere. TIA(This message has been edited by Hawkrod)

These two not only nominated each other but because they are registerd as District Staff they were accepted. At least now both have sons in Boy Scouts although both are lone wolves (due to issues, the parents say the boys were picked on in both my unit and the units they were in before) and neither are OA. They have never done anything since Ordeal but wear their sashes at every opportunity. I was a resident camp program director this past summer and they showed up in full uniform with sashes to pick the boys up after camp was over! You should have seen the reaction from the youth staff (most are Eagles and OA). Hawkrod

ScoutNut, I mentioned statements from other COR's as they were not allowed to attend but wanted to be heard. I can assure you they will be happy to go to speak directly to the issue. They were pretty upset at being told they could not attend as were board members from our CO. Cub Day Camp was where these issues originally came to a head due to complaints and problems. One of these people is an RSO who volunteered to run the range but after the DE spoke with her about some of the problems, "got a headache" and had to leave and did not come back for the next two days. They also did not tell anybody they were leaving and we did not find out about the "headache" until much later and that was also when we found out that the DE had pulled them aside over the complaints. As I said before, I did not really want to air this and I would rather we drop the discussion unless there is specific direction about reporting. I could do this all day and I would really rather not. It is taxing and, yes, I know, I am burning a lot of bridges. Unfortunately I see no alternative as the behaviors have not been limited to single events or instances and exhibit a significant pattern accross many units. I believe it was said earlier and I concur, these people are toxic, for them it is not about Scouting, they just want to be Scouts (did I mention that as Cub Leaders they nominated each other for OA? Yeah, really.). Hawkrod(This message has been edited by Hawkrod)

Thank you both, jet526 that was basically what I was looking for. I do have statement from other COR's but did not know we could do that. I am not the only involved party, just the most visible due to our units strengths. CalicoPenn, you sound just like my CC. We have been top in popcorn sales for several years and even in this tough economy came out far ahead of anybody else and the first thing the CC and CM said was we will find money somewhere else! I am not quite that punative myself and I do expect we will participate but time will tell. As far as what we want to see? We simply do not want these people in a position of authority/responsibilty over members outside of their units. Their behavior has left a bad taste in a lot of peoples mouths and it just can't go on. Hawkrod

Thank you for your input. I did not post here to get sympathy or support. I think maybe it has been misunderstood, our unit is one of the most successful and largest in the area and we can provide program by ourselves as we have done so often in the past. I am trying to determine which is the correct official way to report these types of issues. Now that we have had our first meeting on the issue I have found that at a District level nothing will be done even in the face of admission of guilt. As I noted, during the meeting one person did admit that there has been innapropriate language and calling of names directly to children. I had assumed it would have been denied but it wasn't, it was excused despite several instances. I will take that admission to the SE along with other YP issues that have also arisen. The person is the Cub RT Commissioner and also a Day Camp staff member which is a bigger part of the issue. I recognize that there are always he-said she-said disputes but I was not posting to air the issues (which is why I abbreviated as much as possible) but to find out what the proper proceedure is. It is becoming apparent that having another meeting with the SE is imminent. Unfortunately it is not as simple as I had hoped that there would be a reporting document or format to follow. The Key Three in our District specifically do not want this to become a bigger issue and would rather quash it despite what we feel are serious allegations. They refused to even hear from any other party including CC's from other units, they required that we gather the information and present it to them and only two people were allowed to go to the meeting. By the end of teh meeting it was apparent that the other parties can behave as they choose without repercussion from the District. People warned me in advance that these people are "untouchable" and now I am begining to believe it. Hawkrod

Thanks again to all and just to be brief, I have not shared all details, only those that I felt were specifically pertinent (there is unfortunately many more issues and complaints from other units). I am the COR and the CO has been involved with the this process since things came to light (we try to be very transparent). These individuals have ingratiated themselves very well. I was shocked at the arbitration when a letter was presented from another unit that said we had offended and intimidated their leader when I had asked him to hold off judgement on the issues until after this was concluded. It was not as if we had asked him to take sides, we specifically did not, we simply did not wish to discuss issues that he was not directly party to but unfortunately the other parties lobbied for favor when we would not and now an interunit function that we had done in the past is off the table. These people are well entrenched and are now directly affecting our unit while not in it. Hawkrod

Thank you all for your input. Unfortunately the issues relate directly to our unit at both District and Council levels as it affects our ability to participate in functions at those levels. Also note that the units make up the District and the Council and thus it is all of our responsibilities. The only thing I have learned from this is there does not seem to be any way to keep things above board and there are people who ingratiate themselves to such a degree that they have power over what you do. I participated in the arbitration this evening and the results were dismal to say the least. The profanity issue was swept aside as soon as the other party admitted it was true but she had said she was sorry. The fact that she has verbally abused children on several occasions was wiped clean. I know she will continue and so I will not be able to allow our unit to participate in stuff like day camp, District pinewood derby and many others events because of her presence at events. The other person simply lied. Because it was held as an arbitration there was no consequences and certainly no remorse. The end result is that the behavior will not stop and more kids will suffer as ours have. I truly believe in this program but my strength is being tested, Hawkrod

Hello, I just joined as I have been doing web searches on various issues and decided to get more 21st century when it comes to Scouting. I have two sons in the program and their success is important to me. I am a COR and our family is very involved in Scouting. My involvment in Scouting is directly linked to my sons and making sure that the program available to them and their friends is a strong and successful one. TIA Tom AKA Hawkrod

I am not sure where this should go but the following involves Scouters at a District and Council level so here goes: I am a volunteer with a unit that has had problems over the years with several "interesting" parents/leaders. They usually burn themselves out or go away when other parents/leaders fail to agree with them. Recently we have had two very "interesting" individuals, who were having issues in other units, join our unit and after a short but painful experience left our unit. The committee felt this was for the best and put it behind us. Unfortunately the other parties were not of a like mind. It started out very slowly but started to gain momentum. We found out that these people were spreading false rumors about members of our unit, our finances and much more. In hopes that they would eventually get bored we tried desperately to ignore the issue but unfortunately these people have been very prolific in spreading their falsehoods and even more unfortunately these people are also very involved at both District and Council levels. One of the individuals is an ex-professional (and after talking with other pro's I now comprehend that it wasn't just "downsizing" as we were led to believe). These individuals have now spread a lot of bad information around and it finally got to the point where the unit leadership was forced to respond. During the course of action, several improprieties surfaced regarding these individuals (as it usually does, it is a pattern of behavior) and the committee brought it to the DE. The DE asked the committee to list out the issues and document them and then forward copies to the key three. Upon doing this, the key three has arranged to have a meeting to arbitrate the differences between the unit and the individuals. The CC has contacted the key three and told them that this is not a "dispute", rather it is a list of charges of violations. The key three has decided that they will not handle it as charges. What does the committee do now? There is supporting documentation for falsifying adult leader awards (the ex-pro actually signed the documents as the DE and as the CC of our unit and was neither so the council person contacted our CC and returned the forged document). We have also had parents coming out of the woodwork with other allegations including one of these individuals having a graphic conversation about birth control and personal protection at an event after everyone else was asleep (it was very one on one. The childs parent has already taken this to the SE and so it is being address separately). Our committee has also now heard from other units and district staff regarding issues but are not being allowed to air the issues as it is not firsthand and the other parties will not be allowed to participate as only two people are going to be allowed to represent our unit at the arbitration. When there are actual issues regarding like when these people are training and teaching other leaders and their performance is abysmal (they conducted Scoutmaster and Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills in less than 12 hours by cutting out parts that "they knew the leaders would do on their own or already knew". They completely eliminated first aid! I do realize that you can gloss over and condense some areas in these courses IF the participants have experience and knowledge but many of the leaders there had never had any training and were brand new! They are also falsifying paperwork and failing to perform, yelling at children (not just "stop that" or something of that nature, actually calling a child a f*****g thug or piece of s*** on many documented occasions) what is the process? Who do you go to? Is there any forms or directions? I have spent way too many hours on the web looking for answers. These people are no longer in our unit but the behavior has actually gotten worse and they are also now Lone Scouting their sons because of "personal issues". The sad part is their boys need the program so bad but it is no longer about the boys, it is now about the parents. Their entire social life is now wrapped up in being Scouting volunteers and for some reason the leadership does not see or is looking past the issues. Several parents and myself are at our wits end by the way this is being handled (or specifically not being handled. What do we do? TIA Hawkrod(This message has been edited by Hawkrod)(This message has been edited by Hawkrod)