Hawkrod

SeattlePioneer, I am afraid I disagree with your POV. The point of Boy Scouts is not outdoor skills, Outdoor skills are simply a tool used to help build better leaders. The first three ranks of Boy Scouts are those outdoor skills and are the tools used to be able complete the last three ranks which are leadership skills. The entire point of Boy Scouts is to help make better men, being able to pitch a tent and cook over a fire does not make you a better man, pitching a tent with your patrol and cooking for a group of people, working out the issues that come up and succeeding makes you a better man. Green Bar Bill said Scouting was a game with a purpose (it is usually attributed to BP but the historical records do not support that conclusion, it is more likely that GBB paraphrased something that BP wrote). The Game is the outdoor experience, the purpose is to create better citizens. Here is GBB's original statement: A realization that to the boys Scouting is a game--to you, a game with a purpose: Character building and Citizenship training. Yes, the outdoor skills are both important and essential but they are not the goal, just a tool used to achieve the goal. The milestones in Scouting are noted, the only Cub rank you can wear on your Scout shirt is AOL and once and Eagle, always an Eagle. There is a reason that adult leaders are allowed to wear recognition of those ranks on their uniforms. JMO(This message has been edited by Hawkrod)

THe badge magic type products actually come off pretty easily. I used to think it was a difficult mess but there are several easy ways to remove it including dry cleaning. I use Goof Off and it works great (we have a used uniform library, it seems as though I end up doing a couple every month lately!).

The velcro has two halves, you sew the "fuzzy" soft piece on the sleeve (or badge magic if you prefer). The velcro piece is the same color as the shirt so when a patch is removed it is just there. This is how military uniforms are done now. It is amazingly simple and if it works in heavy duty applications like it was designed for it should work well in Scouting. JMO

moosetracker, yes, I was trying to be both vague and abstract as I knew that eventually this would happen and I was not trying to air this here but air my experience and what I came away with from it. It is certainly possible that I was wrong about the OA nominations and if that is the case then I apologize profusely as that was not my intent and I may have misinterpreted what the LA said but other than that I can absolutely document and prove everything else I have said and would not have written it had I not had paperwork in my posesssion to support what I have written or had been first hand to some of this. So no, there is no slander or libel. Just because you do not like something does not make it slander or libel, being false makes it that and I can prove that all that I have written is true just unappetizing. Yes, it is true, that I am the COR and my wife is the CC (She was the CC when the IH assigned me, not the other way around, she was assigned by the previous COR who I did not know at the time). Yes, our unit volunteers receive a registration offset for the time they spend but beyond that not much is factual. For example, I and my children pay 100% of the full fee and always have. Although some of the other unit leaders do take advantage of the offset we have always had the ability to pay and so have done so as do others. Also note that the CC did not set the amounts as that was a decision of the committee at the annual planning meeting. This person apparently is not aware that we have a very strong IH and the operation of the unit is by committee. The CC does not even vote in committee. As far as leader training, yes, the unit will pay for most training for a leader in our unit but I am confused by the obviously false accusation that we charge families for training that has not occured. First off, we don't charge families for training. It comes out of the unit budget and we don't pay for training that has not occurred. Note that the unit budget is only partially (less than half last year) paid for by youth registration fees. Yes, there is a $150 renewal fee for belonging to our unit but we spend over $300 per boy annually and most of that money comes from moneys donated to the unit by the IH and the community or fundraising. Also note that the $150 covers a lot that most units require the parent to purchase seperately but we purchase and simply pass the charge through including things like the uniform cap, neckerchief, slide and book. We also include boys life, both youth and one parent registration, insurance, along with all advancements and much much more. Our actual direct pass through charges (moneys collected that are used to pay for specific items or fees such as the uniform components) are over $100. The less than $50 our unit gets for the year round program goes to actual unit costs such as advancements and awards, operating budget (for example, printing newsletters for pack meetings, new parent books and postage). We actually charge the same as another local unit that does not include most of this (this came to light through this ordeal). As far as second year Webelos, I am not sure how June to February is considered 6 month because my math says that it is over 8 full months of program and we give a gift at bridging along with the fact that our second year Webelos earn more so our costs per boy actually rise for a shorter program. There is a popcorn buyout for those that decided that they did not want to participate in sales just as most schools do on their fundraisers but there is no minimum requirement for sales so a boy only had to participate in one single show and sell and no buy out was needed. Another point that is very easy to verify is that our unit has never had 100 boys EVER. We would love it and I have told the DE repeatedly that if we ever get to that point we will split the unit but last year we had just over 50 boys in February when we crossed two Webelos dens. As far as speaking to a child without the parent around, I certainly would not want anyone to think it was underhanded, I participate in many youth events in our community and at events kids may come by and see us. I have never been alone and these conversations have always taken place publicly in the presence of others who were also party to the conversation. Unfortunately this is much bigger than can or should be discussed here but I have not lied or misrepresented anything, I simply tried to share my firsthand horrible experience without going into detail but unfortunately it did not work out the way I wanted it to and each question to me has made me disclose more and more information. I was intentionally trying not to get into too much detail but obviously that failed. As far as the YP issue, it is unfortunately quite true and there are two other families that have come forward and are going to the SE. I did not attack and go to the Key 3 as claimed, these accusations came in and the DE told me that I had to file a complaint and he met with our IH and myself, both of my unit leaders along with several parents and he told us what we had to do. I also did not go to the Council as claimed, I specifically did not do that but was called to the SE's office when he heard about this through another party. I did not feel that it was something the SE needed to handle as the DE told me the Key 3 would handle it. The Key 3 tried to handle this as an arbitration between two parties that had a dispute as they felt it was the best way to do it and yes, there has been a ton of he said/she said and it is unfortunate but I can prove all of my allegations and I will stand on that.(This message has been edited by Hawkrod)

As I have noted, there are other issues. These people have had a common issue that I think (maybe I am wrong but so be it) has created my perception. These people have told lies, misrepresented things, back stabbed, sullied names and so much more. You do not get 30 plus parents and leaders to write letters to the District staff and the SE if you are doing a good job. I will admit that over half of the letters came from out units but more than a third came from members of other units that were present when problems occured and they blame us as these people were members of our unit when many of these issues occured. We did not solicit these letters and calls to the SE and DE but they were brought to us because I am the COR. Also note that even a National employee came to us because one of these people falsified knot paperwork for the other and signed it off. The problems are numerous and I am sorry I said anything but these issues will cloud my opinion for a long time to come. When confronted on these issues they always have a really good story but I know they are lies as the stories change depending on who they are being told to. Fortunately these people do not realize that nobody trusts them anymore and so we all end up hearing all the versions. Yes, it is really bad and that is why I came to the forums in the first place, I was seeking help in trying how to resolve all of this. Unfortunately it got big enough that all the Districts now know about it and the SE has had some conversations.

Definitely yes. And that fun can be directly tied to getting more adults to participate and get the Scouts to step it up a notch. At a recent "pay it forward" event our Troop had, the boys ran a weekend camping program for the Cub Scouts after the Crew had taken the Boy Scouts Rock Climbing. The parents and leaders were seperated from the boys in both proximity and facilities. One of the dads (who was immediately promoted to ASM after dinner!) had volunteered to cook the adult meals with the SM. The dinner for the adults ended up being mini pizzas cooked on portabello mushrooms instead of bread dough along with great chili and a bunch more. The next day breakfast was a mexican breakfast burrito like nothing I have ever had. I think I gained 10 pounds that weekend. At the next camp out I expect it to only get better and I expect we will have more parents volunteering to assist (trust me, it was that good and we have not stopped talking about it!). It isn't as if the kids suffered or we got carried away, for our SM, that is just how he cooks and camping is something where he does it (I had a clue as I had gone with him to other events and it is always excellent but when our new ASM joined in the cooking it went up more than a few notches (he used to be a chef). There are many ways to make it fun for the adults and we really do try. BTW, here is a picture I took at our rock climb, those are two of our adults up there! http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/hs064.snc6/167483_1802909199380_1439344496_1983057_3672210_n.jpg

Yes, there is a lot more going on but I was trying to make a minor point rather than have it turn into this long drawn out thread. My real point was that you have to look at the volunteers and if they have sons "in the program" who are not participating but the parents are there for anything at the drop of a hat you have to look deeper and see if there is a reason why the boys are not benefiting. If the boys don't want to be there then ask why. If it because they really don't like Scouts then okay but when a boy says he wants to but can't because his mom is staffing another class or conduction another meeting then maybe the parent has missed the mark. If the boy says he really doesn't like Scouts you may want to probe even further because if the parent has failed to sell their own child on the program what is their value system? If the kid just hates camping (I have had that) and that is what the parent and the unit "always do" then okay. There will always be some adults who's interests are along Scout lines who's children really are not of a like mind. Okay fine but I have met some in the last few years who really have shown me that the kids are not the priority for them. I have met the kids and talked with them and what they say is very different from the stories their parents tell the public.

Pretty close but these parents have become District/Council involved and pulled their sons out of units to "Lone Scout" (yes, I know, it is not allowed if there is a unit available but these people are manipulators!). The boys really want to be in a unit but are not allowed. The parents claim other boys picked on them etc... but when I talk to the boys (at non-Scout events) and their parents are not around the boys have told me how much they miss it. For these people, Scouting has become their life at the cost of their boys programs. The one I removed from my Pack was a den leader and would have meetings in her home while her boy would go to his room. BTW, that boy was arrested at 7yo for felony vandalism, the parent was not concerned with the boy, she was concerned with being a Scout leader.(This message has been edited by Hawkrod)

BrentAllen, I am trying to be polite here. I am not talking about a boy who has a choice about what he is doing, I am talking about boys that have said they want to participate, who when they are allowed to show up, have a good time but are not allowed because the parents have other plans but when it is the parent doing something it becomes their "duty". People who have committed to do something and then don't because they were asked to do something else by somebody outside of the unit after they have already made the committment. An example would be a Pack trainer that sets up Balloo for the unit but then cancels (repeatedly) to go conduct training for another unit in another District (again, I am trying to be polite and succinct). I have spoken to these boys numerous times and the boys have expressed that they miss being with us. It is the parent not letting the boy participate not the boy declining to participate. Also note that although these people say they abide by the Scout Oath and Law, have had charges of unScoutlike conduct lodged by dozens of adult leaders and parents. One of them is even on probation for YP violations. I guess I was not expressing myself well enough when I was trying to get my point accross, sorry.(This message has been edited by Hawkrod)

83Eagle, I fear again, my comment was taken out of context. I never said there was something wrong with working towards knots, I said there was something wrong with adults more concerned with earning knots than their own sons earning rank. When a parent has a youth in the program but that youth is not participating BECAUSE the parent is then it is a problem.

Welcome, I am new here also but saw this post and had to laugh. I am known as Big Bear or Yanegwa

ScoutNut, I fully agree with what you are saying but I think you took what I said out of context. I was talking about problems directly related to adult volunteers who are in it for themselves, not for the benefit of the youth or more specifically, their own children who miss out on the program because of the parents type of involvement. I will say that at times, my involvement has been an issue. Hopefully not in a negative way, but because I do as much as I do, my kids are "forced" to do more than they probably would on their own. Being program director at summer camp meant that my boys were there participating much more so than any other boys. Being an RSO means my boys go to various events where I have been asked to work and so they go several times every summer. Being on the District Committee means that my boys go to things that others don't and do things at a higher level than other boys. For example, our unit is regularly the top popcorn unit in our District, guess who did a ton of show and sells? We had a cell phone recycling contest, guess what unit won? Yes, for some it is a problem but the thing about it is that my boys have learned more and done more. It can be tough on a low effort parent who joins one of our units (we ALWAYS warn them and interview them in advance, we do refer people to other units on a weekly basis) but for the people who want their kids involved, we are the "go to" unit. As far as problems for my boys, one of my sons was almost a 12 year old Eagle (he will be a 13 yo Eagle) and there are many that would have issues with that and originally the idea bothered me. Unlike most 12 yo's he is very mature and the age issue was not really a problem for those that know him but others put a lot of effort into tearing him down. I was accused (by the same people I mentioned in my post above) of signing off his merit badges and advancement. Unfortunately I had to prove otherwise but lucky for me it was easy as he had earned all but one merit badge (he has over 20) at various camps. Not many 12 yo's have been to 6 or 7 resident camps but my son has. He went to Jambo and he was voted Chaplain's Aide by his Troop, he placed in the county science fair, was a top student at his school and is a brown belt in Shotokan Karate. He is not a normal kid which is part of why I am here doing this. Am I a problem parent? Yes, in some ways I am but never at the expense of the youth program other than the fact that I expect more of my sons and the boys in my units than most do. And you know what? The boys haved yet to let me down! Our leaders have the honor of working with some truly awesome boys that are strong, independent, self reliant leaders that have a "can do" attitude even in the face of adversity. We are not teaching skills, the boys are learning skills by living the dream. They are eager to get out there and do it, much more so than many others I have worked with. Yes, any parent can be a problem but from what perspective? In our organization, the problem parent is the one that prevents the boys from getting the most they can out of the program.

I think you may want to reread what I wrote, I did not imply that it IS a problem, I said it "can be" a problem. The issue is not the same as your other examples as those organizations do not exist for the benefit of the youth registered. Your comparing apples to oranges.

pohsuwed, I think you hit a nail on the head. I have not been a Scouter all that long but have been part of a couple of EXTREMELY active units that required all adults to get off of their tails and run. I have earned a lot of knots in short order as our CC's have been very proactive in documenting and submitting the forms (I actually did not know that the individual was supposed to be responsible because the CC always made sure it was taken care of!). I actually have a youth program related knot for every year or two that I have been in Scouting along with a District award or Merit, William D. Boyce New Unit Organizer and a Silver Beaver so I had a lot of knots. A local individual talked a lot about wearing knots and how it was important to the boys as it showed that we were working torwards things just as they were and it was motivational along with the other adults will respect your experience etc... so I had three knots on my shirt as a "sign". When I got the opportunity to go to Jambo, I decided to have all my pathces proper and so all the knots went on and this same person started making snide comments. They actually told me that I did not deserve the Silver Beaver (same person was denied the award) etc... so there are reasons to go either way. The knots do show you have been there doing a good job but the ego's of some people will make you want to take the knots off just to avoid the confrontation.

I agree that Scouting is a great program for adults and I know it has changed my life but I also find that for some adults Scouting is their life and that can be a problem. I have met several people who have Scout age kids that either do not participate, or are always taking a back burner while the parents are very involved. We have a couple right now that fit this mold and have had others in the past (one I actually removed from our unit). The problem is Scouting becomes their lives. These people are staffing Woodbadge but their kids are sitting at home playing video games. They do see the benefits of the program but they don't see that their own kids are not getting it! They are more concerned with what knots they are earning and not what ranks their kids are earning! It can be a fine line and for those that keep the proper perspective it is definitley a great experience but for those that cross the line, it can be a nightmare for the people in the swath of damage they leave around them. Those that do go to the dark side tend to be "dramatic", they manage to infiltrate every clique or group, something is always going on and they make sure they are in the middle of it. They can be very manipulative and their stories sound good until you are on the receiving end and you come to realize what kind of people they really are. Scouting is a great program for kids and lets involved parents socialize with like minded individuals but it has to be about the kids first and foremost and about the adults if there is time left over. To put this in perspective, as a UC and member of the DC there are a lot of meetings I am scheduled to be at but if my unit has something scheduled I have to be with the kids. It can be tough as so many adults will say "you must be there" and I say "sorry but the kids have planned an outing" and the response is almost universally "can't somebody else do it?" and sometimes they can but we only have a few adult leaders and even fewer that are fully trained so it is my job to make sure that the boys program comes before "my program". JMO

I think it is a great idea and have tried to find Vecro in the correct colors but have been unsuccessful. I think it would be great for boys rank and position patches as too many change too frequently. For some boys it may not be an issue but we have some go-getters and of course every six months you have changing positions. I also like it for adult leaders because, although it is great to have a uniform for each position, that is not always practical especially in these tough economic times. I actually have 7 uniform shirts (I wear a lot of hats) but often find that I need more than one for something specific (Jambo for example) and changing patches is a pain. I am an active COR for two units, a UC, a member of the DC and an ASM. While I am an ASM I certainly don't want to wear a COR uniform because although it would be correct as it is my primary registered position, it can usurp the authority of the SM. As COR people will come to me that should go to the SM because they know "a COR is in charge". Out of respect for the SM, I prefer to not do that. As a UC I don't want to do visits with unit numbers on my shirt etc.... At this time I do have seperate shirts but it would it be nice to have shirts and patches that I can change quickly. JMO

I just wanted to thank you guys for doing what you all do so well. I have a really tough time tracking all the stuff going on in Scouting and just recently started participating in various forums when I was looking for help on some other issues. Now I get ideas daily and something like this is great because I have boys in my unit that qualify or are very close to qualifying and I didn't even know it existed! I don't even have to worry about the dates as all of the requirements have been completed since last summer when this award already existed (one of the few benefits of a new unit, nobody did anything a long time ago! LOL). Thanks again

I agree that some people don't comprehend what an arid climate is like. Open fires is an issue for us but we lost a big chunk of our local camp in a fire and that camp was donated because the last one was also lost in a fire. Here, where we live, our average annual precipitation is about 5 inches and is mostly snow (snow has less water in it than rain). The fire dangers here are serious and even our local city owned camping facility that has cleared areas with deep metal fire pits requires a permit from the fire department for a cooking fire but they won't even issue a permit for just a campfire (for a campfire we MUST cook marshmallows or hot dogs just to get the permit!). I agree that fire skills is a must learn but because so many people don't do it safely we are suffering.

I agree, "Good turns should need no reward" but this is an excellent opportunity to use to sell good turns. Yes, I said "sell". Too many kids and adults forget that doing the right thing is not always the easy thing to do and these type of situations make excellent opportunities to sell the other kids on doing the right thing. Does the boy need an award for doing it? No, but giving him one in front of everybody will certainly make others think about it when they are in the same spot as well as reinforcing the value of having done the right thing to the boy. JMO

Actually, this applies directly to Scouting. A speed trap by definition is an unfair violation of your rights. A trap is designed to make it impossible to do the right thing.

I have to agree that the CS program can be tough at a District level. In our District we have the Pinewood Derby, Raingutter Regatta, and Cub Day Camp as activities. After you add in popcorn sales and Scouting for food you have quite a bit of program to go along with Council events such as resident camp, Stampede (it is kind of like a camporee for all Scouts including cubbies!), and special programs like Webelos Woods, rocket academy (LA Council but we always do it because it is so close) and civil war re-enactment. The reality is that between District and Council activities, I can have my units at a function every single month and they would never plan anything. The problem is that they lose out on building program among themselves. Our CO requires some specific local community programs that we MUST participate in such as the annual childrens parade, the Freedom Festival (4th of July), community clean up (we adopted a street many years ago) and a couple of others. The belief of the CO leadership (including many long time and past Scouters) is that the local unit must be part of the local community first and that District and Council events have there places but are less important than being part of the community.

But do you disagree with what I wrote? There used to be a place where the speed limit dropped 25 MPH but the lower speed limit sign (which was less than 1/4 mile from the higher one) was directly behind a larger yellow diamond warning sign. The poles for the two signs were only about a foot apart and directly in line with each other. To me that is intent on somebodies part. It took intervention of the SAG to get it fixed.

I do think there is a big difference between a speed trap and a change in speed limits. A speed trap would be as described above, a sudden change in speed limits that can't be seen in normal situations. If you are driving along legally and the speed limit is 60 and you come up a rise and behind the hill is a 35 MPH sign and you can't possibly slow fast enough after seeing the sign then that is a trap. If the sign is hidden behind a bush, pole or other sign (I have actually seen this one!) then it is a trap. There has to be a reasonable effort to make the driver aware of changes in speed limits or it is a trap. JMO

Just a note to clear up the community strip versus R/W council patches. The community strips were used at the same time as the R/W council patches but they existed for seperate purposes. The community strip was worn by local unit members and the R/W council patches were worn by professional Scouters and Jamboree contingent members. I do believe the dates of change varied slightly and I know that here in area it was in 1973. The funny part is I know this because of when our council was formed. By coincidence it was already mentioned, I am in the area that was the old Arrowhead Area council (I collect related items!) and our council never had a CSP. The council merged in 73 and new California Inland Empire Council (CIEC for short) R/W council patches were issued but after just a few months CSP's came out. That actually makes California Inland Empire Council R/W's fairly rare and I think the only reason that there are so many of them is that it was a Jambo year. Basically if your council ceased to exist before the early 70's there are only R/W council patches and if they came into existence after that time there are only CSP's. Only councils that existed during that time had both. On a side note, on the web there is often confusion between Inland Empire Council and California Inland Empire Council stuff. I can't tell you how many items I have had to send back after I was told that, yes, it is California only to get it and its from Washington! LOL(This message has been edited by Hawkrod)

You are correct, it was a letter to the employees that I was shown not to Scouters (sorry, I did not mean to imply that it was for all eyes). As far as the hats go, isn't that what I wrote? LOL Thanks(This message has been edited by Hawkrod)