Hawkrod

I agree, because he is already past the 4th grade he is good to go at 6 months. The LDS program actually works that way. Too many people assume Webelos must be more than 12 months but it just makes it a better experience, it is not a requirement. The LDS do a 1 year program as often noted but it is important to recognize that they don't have 9 year old Webelos, they start when they are 10 (or at least they do around here, I assume that is the national program?). The LDS program is age based and so they are basically a year behind community groups which is part of why we can have the longer Webelos program.

Balancing on the head of a pin! I have actively spent the last 8 months trying to reduce my committment so that I can spend more my time with my sons. I have had two days off from Scouting in the last two weeks and it looks like it is only getting worse! LOL I know it is only because my son is on an OA ceremony team so when AOL is "over" we can get back to normal but normal is 5 days a week anymore! Don't forget summer camp is coming and I have to go to camping school and then its weeks at camp etc... Fortunately as the activities chair for teh District I am very lucky to have committe chairs that are excellent and handle the programs better than I ever could. If I had to do it myself I am sure you would find me crumpled up in a fetal position blabbering incoherently!

Thanks for the heads up

Our unit just had a tour plan denied to go to the Council camp because we did not have a Baloo trained leader going. I talked to several people at Council and nobody knows what to do because they told me that we are not required to have a Baloo leader at resident camp but the form is kicked out if you don't have one. The worst part is we have had several people who scheduled to take Baloo but the district trainer kept cancelling the class (one time the participants said they were already there to take it when they found out it was cancelled!). I like the new form but hate that we still have to fight these minor issues. If our Council had not required a tour plan for all overnighters it would not be an issue. They also could have simply not required a tour plan for overnighters at Council camps and we would still be okay but because we are relatively remote and the last district trainer was derelict we have to suffer.

Excellent post CalicoPenn, the only caveat I would suggest is sometimes people say "We tried that before, it didn't work so let's not waste our time" because they really tried that before and it didn't work so it would be a waste of time! LOL I am not saying it is always true but that is one I would certainly look into a little deeper before I discounted it completely! I have had a couple of suggestions over the years that have come up and we have tried it (sometimes more than a few times) and it still didn't work. Some things we actually tried again only because people kept suggesting it even though the larger group had already said it had been tried and rather than create a conflict we let them try, we even help hoping it will succeed this time (some ideas are good it is just that implementing and sustaining them takes more than we have). I certainly like to think I am not insane but IIRC Einstein said "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results".

Thanks for posting that, would never have seen it otherwise

Loss of youth is difficult even though it is also expected. For all of the reasons given, and many more, we have to expect that at some point, someone will not move forward. I remember when I was a WDL, I had one boy who just hated being a Scout but mom forced him. His dad had promised that if he finished Cubs he could quit and not become a Boy Scout. I tried everything in my bag of tricks. I know he had fun and enjoyed every bit of what we did but when the time came he dropped and walked away. I actually felt like I had failed him. I still see him and he has since told me that if his mother had not been the way she was, he would have kept going. It was not what I had done, it was what she had done. For a couple of years I had walked around thinking I had failed him.

This a timely and good thread even if it is an older one. It brings up a lot of confusion and misconception about bridging and since we are doing a lot of that right now it is good to see these things. To be clear, AOL does not equal Tenderfoot, it does "almost" equal Scout and I think that although a retest by the SM is not unreasonable along with completing the two points that AOL does not address (Outdoor code and YP booklet), awarding the Scout patch is pretty reasonable immediately. As noted by the BSA: "Arrow of Light The highest rank in Cub Scouting is the Arrow of Light Award. Earning this rank prepares a Webelos Scout to become a Boy Scout. Webelos Scouts who have earned the Arrow of Light Award have also completed all requirements for the Boy Scout badge." and "A Webelos Scout who has earned the Arrow of Light Award has now completed all the requirements for the Scout badge and may join a Boy Scout troop." Now admittedly, those quote from BSA do not address the two missing issues but those should be something that the SM should be working with the DL on prior to bridging so that they would be completed. I also have expectations that the SM would be having some communications with the DL prior to bridging to make sure that the boys are ready. Also note that although older requirements may have been different, they simply do not apply now and should not be used as examples of "how it IS done" they are only examples of "how it WAS done". That is a very important distinction and I think at least one person missed that in the thread. It really is critical to follow the process properly and not try and justify shortcuts and "cheating". The only looser when you do that is the boy. It is not the achievement that is important, it is the process leading up to the achievement that is important. If the boy misses or is allowed to skip any of it then his expectations have just been lowered and his long term success can be threatened. The purpose of Boy Scouts is not outdoor skills, it isn't camping. The purpose of Boy Scouts is to build leaders using the outdoors as a tool to reach that goal. Awarding Tenderfoot without having fulfilled the requirements simply says to the boy that you really don't have to do it right to succeed and maybe that is a very big chunk of what is wrong with many people in America today? We have constantly lowered the expectations of our youth. All it really does is take away from boys who do it properly as cheaters bring scorn upon the esteem of entire group.

What a conundrum! We are going through this right now. My wife was the CC for the Pack but knowing that my youngest would bridge by B&G she tried stepping down and training a replacement. She started about a year out and went through a couple of candidates. Nobody really wanted to step up to do a job that had been done for them for the last 6 years. In the end she had to pack it in and walk away and there were some very bitter and angry people who felt that she abandoned them which is very far from the truth. Fortunately a couple of mentally healthy people were rational and realized if somebody did not pick up teh reigns it would all fall apart. The reality is so many people just assumed she was doing it and it would continue despite being told over and over again and it caused a lot of strife when she actually stepped out. She ended up being blamed because the advancement chair was letting things slide and nobody planned upcoming events etc... and these things occured after she gave her final notice and stepped out. It really was tough and many people were offended that she would abandon them. She is still taking calls from the new CC and helping by explaining how to do stuff but she isn't going to go to any more meetings as she is now the Troop CC (by chance the Troop CC just stepped down and they were actively seeking a new CC!). We have had a time of it and the Pack has dipped but it is just part of the cycle and you have to accept it.

For those that may not have seen it, here is the official BSA time line for the Cub program. Notice that Feb/March of the second year is the goal in the timeline for bridging: http://www.directservicebsa.org/pdf/13-027.pdf This timeline came from years of experience and thousands of units success and failure in retention. The idea is to get the Boy into Boy Scouts from Cubs at the right time to insure his success. It gives time to integrate with the other boys and learn the basics he will need at camp with a Troop as opposed to car camping with a Pack and also is not too early where he may "get ahead" which prevents him from getting the most out of first year camp programs.(This message has been edited by Hawkrod)

One point I would make about interaction between OA and Cubs is that there is a need even if it is not always recognized. For example there are ceremony teams that do AOL but I think that is minor compared to promotions. Camping promotion needs to be done with Cub units just as it is done with Troops and also the OA members can make a lasting impression on the Cubs that can foster the desire to aspire. Our chapeter advisor came to Cub summer resident camp a few years ago and gave a talk about Scouting and the outdoor experience and inspired my son to the point that OA became a goal. He was tapped out last year and is currently chapter secretary and Chief Akela on the AOL ceremony team. There is honestly no part of Scouting he likes better than OA. I also think part of that is because in a Troop some boys "have" to come because a parent says so but in OA the boys come because they want to. He finds more like minded boys in OA even though he is much younger than most of them.

While that is good in theory I am afraid that in real life it may not work quite so well. As I pointed out already, the inspection sheet is not the perfect tool but, rest assured, if asked to prove it the person will pull that document out and say "if it isn't on here it isn't official". Sometimes having the correct information upfront can save you dealing with it later. Asking them to prove it is fine but also be ready if they have an answer that looks good on the surface as it may not be a complete answer and that may not be recognized. It is obvious from many uniform issues here amongst experienced Scouters, that even the official documents may not be complete or correct in regards to all situations and yet many people use them to "prove" what is or is not correct.

This is a great "get to know you" thread and I should have joined in earlier. My first car was a 59 Chevy El Camino. It was sitting on the street in front of our house when a guy came around the corner and plowed it. I never even got to drive it! Soone there after I got a 59 Studebaker Hawk (hence my screen name) and for my 16th birthday my dad got me another 59 El Camino. I still have the second El Camino and a 59 Hawk! The El Camino has 46K original miles and was special ordered with almost every option and I am the second owner. It has a 348 Tri-Power, 4 speed and posi. It has dual spotlights (original GM not universal ones!), bumper guard, two tone paint, power seat, tinted glass, padded dash, wonder bar radio, clock and a whole lot more! My 10 year old son is chomping at the bit to drive it someday. The Hawk is another low mile 2 owner car but was originally a cheap 6 cylinder transportation car. I have added a 350 Chevy with a 5 speed, 9 inch Ford rear and four wheel disc brakes. I also put a set of 62 Golden Hawk bucket seats in it with an original floorshift steering column along with a set of earlier Golden Hawk full gauges including the rare tach. It also has a wonder bar radio! One other bit of neat stuff is I also have a 59 Tbird with a 430 Lincoln engine (it was a fairly rare option) and I am the original owner of a 1959 Ariel Leader motorcycle that my dad bought me! I am in the antique car business and actually have about 50 cars, trucks, trailers, and motorcycles.

ScoutBox, while I do understand your point about BadenP's bringing it up. I actually think it may serve a purpose in the long run although in the short term it does come accross a bit brusque. The problem is a matter of some of the history regarding leader awards and leaders who are not in it for the boys but rather for themselves. I do understand the concepts and I know that there are people out there who participate in Scouting solely for their own personal gain and as long as the boys still benefit then it will continue and that is okay but there are also individuals (I have known several over the years) who lose sight of the goals of the program and it becomes about themselves and what they "do". I have even known a few of these leaders who have kids who are not participating (I use the term loosely as an abstract) and want to but can't because their parents are too "busy" with the program. This definitely creates a schism in the culture and some of the people who heavily promote WB fall into the group of social climbers (for lack of a better description). These people can really create the stigma. In our Council, there is a definite negative stigma about WoodBadge and I know a lot of people who are trying to change that but there are enough people who are poor examples that it is hard to forget where the negativity comes from. From what we have read and seen in these online forums indicates that my experiences have been no different than that of many others and the constant reminder will hopefully make everyone aware of the issue and help prevent people from falling into the "trap". WB is a great program and provides tools that can help any leader improve his program but it is not the end the road or Valhalla, it is just an educational process that allows for bonding with other like minded individuals and a sense of belonging to a greater purpose. It is not a mandatory training and I do not think it should be as it would be ruined like so many other programs have been but it is a fantastic experience for those that successfully complete it. I can also say from experience that staffing it is even better than being a participant and you learn much more the second time around. I know that for me (I have Asperger's syndrome) it was a very difficult experience but all of my fellow staff pulled together and helped me succeed and that is part of what makes it such a great experience. I could never have done it alone and I unfortunately I doubt I will be asked to staff again but it was an experience that I will cherish forever.

jblake47, I am sorry but I am going to have to disagree with part of your point. The appropriate uniform inspection sheet only defines the basic uniform and does not cover a lot of optional official uniform items. The Insignia guide specifically lists jackets as "optional wear" and specifies what patches are to be worn and where. If the item were not official there would not be required standards. The uniform inspection sheet is a tool to allow units to set a basic standard but it is not as specific as it could be as there are variations it does not cover (I believe due to lack of manpower specifically addressing these items as they are not critical). A couple of examples of this would be World Crest rounders and Woodbadge name tags, are you expected to wear both you official name tag and wear the woodbadge official name tag as a temporary patch? In our Council we were told the rounder was a required, not optional, item although I think National said it was optional but in our inspections you got dinged for an item not even on the sheet. From National: "This goes around the World Crest, so it would not be considered for temporary placement as advised by the Insignia Guide.". The point I am making is unfortunately the inspection sheet is just a tool but is not the only and last, final authoritative say in uniforming and a red jacket is an official part of the uniform but is not a required part of the uniform.

I am with the other guys, "you had youth just start participating?". Do you mean in your Troop or as a Webelos? The AOL requirement "Be active in your Webelos den for at least six months since completing the fourth grade (or for at least six months since becoming 10 years old), and earn the Webelos badge." is a bit specific. If the boys have been active Webelos and have just started working with your Troop then cross them as "candidates" until they complete the requirements. If they have just become active cubs then send them back to the Pack. JMO

I think that the point about a black and white name tag is specific because it is refering to the item number from supply. There are other name tags but specifically #20100 is the black and white one so the context is critical. I believe that it was the only youth tag at one time and I also think that it is listed that way as a convenience not as a requirement. Same thing with only having one diagram. It is very often a case of changes and the illustrations and documents are not absolutely specific to the nth degree. If it were there would be no confusion.

You are probably right but I was looking farther back than the 60's or 70's and I was thinking more in terms of basic skills. For example, when I was growing up, most Scouts had to "know" knots not just learn it and test only to forget later. It just seems that so many get fed info and test and then they are done with it and if you had to retest them they would fail. I was doing a MB with a youth recently and one of his answers to why something was needed was "Really???". He actually seemed to think that there was no reason to explain why something was needed because he felt it was obvious. I felt bad because I sent him back to the books and I don't think he understood why (I did not feel bad for not passing him, I felt bad that he did not really get it). It is very possible that my perception is wrong but we have had very few boys in our Troop who have had trouble with the requirements although they do not all work on them at the same speed.

I will say that in my opinion it is now probably easier to get Eagle than it used to be to get 1st class. Like everything else in the world today we keep dumbing down our program and I am begining to see 1st class as a basic expectation not an achievement. The requirements are pretty basic so I just don't see it as a huge accomplishment anymore. I really do think that in many ways the program has become far too easy and too many skills are being lost. The expectations are lower and everybody is a winner. I think first class is just a step towards the goal of the program and not a big enough one at that. It should be more and if it were then I would be more excited about having a special ceremony for it. JMO

An extremely important point is to be sure to use non dairy topping rather than cream. It also comes in tubs or cans but it does not turn and smell awfull in the time it takes to get home and shower! Ask me how I learned that one! LOL

I think you are misunderstanding me and I guess I did not present it right but my point was what he said he was going to do and what I suggested that he do (I only suggested to him to try to do three MB's but not the ones he did) were different and then what he actually did was far different from our previous discussions. I have no problem with him only earning three merit badges at Jambo, he can earn merit badges anytime so that was really not a important concern of mine, just that some of the MB's being offered at the Jambo were being run by people who were amazing and the experience may have had more value. For example the archery was being run by world class archers. Not that the guys here would not be able to do it as well, but that the people that were doing it may have given it added value for the experience. Also note that had it been a great concern, I would have spent some one on one time with him to make sure he did it but instead I let him do things as he saw fit while we were there. It is a incredible experience and he can't wait for the next one!(This message has been edited by Hawkrod)

A couple of minor points: First, Beavah, I think your math does not work. It may be 5.6% X 4 years but in those same 4 years it is also 900,000 members X 4 so the percentage should remain contstant, we are not really seeing 22.4% attain Eagle if I am reading this correctly. Second, I personally believe that the percentage of Eagle is higher because the volume of boys had diminished. These days you are more likely to find somebody in the program who has the goal of getting Eagle than you did in years gone past that the goal was to be a Scout. Although we do still see boys who do not want to be Scouts, the majority come from families that do have higher expectations than the general public. I do know that when I was a Scout back in the 60's, the majority of my school class was as well. It was expected. Today it is a small percentage of kids and those kids are probably more likely to Eagle. I do agree that there are Eagle factories and it can be a fine line. I have been accused of pushing my son and at times I do. When I push is not for him to get Eagle, it is for him to finish what he has started. When he starts a merit badge and does not finish is when I get involved. For Example, he has had an open fishing blue card for two years and the only requirement he has left is to cook a fish, I was a little irritated that he was simply ignoring it rather than getting it done. We recently started working together to make sure he is better at organizing himself so that these little details don't slip away. He is young but also unusually gifted and learning to finish what he starts will be critical for him in life so at times I do push, too many people today are of the entitlement mindset and expect that "Do Your Best" will get you through and the problem is "The Best" for many is mediocre. It is all about the dumbing down we talk about so much. My son went to Jambo and had planned on getting 10 merit badges but only ended up with three because he decided to work on getting all the rockers. I am not happy that he did not meet his goal (I was actually concerned when he set such a high goal for himself and we talked about that at length before he left) but at least he did not start a bunch and get partials that were probably all but worthless. As he and I have discussed, I did the major financing of his trip and I was a little disappointed that he did not get a few merit badges that would have been really good to earn at Jambo because of the quality of the staff. As I explained to him, when you are not footing the bill, you do have a responsibility to your benfactor (CO, Parent, etc...) to meet a reasonable performance level. I will say that he did have a bunch of fun and he already has a couple of dozen merit badges so at this point I am more concerned with teaching him the responsibility end of it and to finish what he starts. Just my opinions for what little they are worth

I see a storm on the horizon. You do realize that the if the Troop CC becomes the Troop COR then by default they become the Pack COR. You can't have different COR's for units under a CO. The system does not allow it. When the change to the Troop COR is input into the system they usually just change it for all the units but some Councils will call back and tell you they can't do it. Anywho, to suggest it is like a back room coup. Hawkrod

I am sure that the American Idol crowd and many members of the current generations would be proud. On Idol, don't they tell the participants to put their own spin on a song and make it their own? She certainly spun it her way and I am glad I don't own it! On the flip side, she is taking a horrible beating and you have to feel a little bad because if it was a mistake, and she lost where she was, as she is claiming, it will haunt her for a long time and who among us has made no mistakes. I regret each and every one that I have made. It is true though, I don't get paid millions to not make those mistakes and so the expectations should be higher.

SeattlePioneer, I think you may need to reread what was written. I think you have taken the comment about loyalty out of context. In both this thread and the other, the loyalty part was not about a boy going to the Troop from a Pack out of loyalty, the loyalty comments were about loyalty to the boys own needs and loyalty to the CO by the units working together both of which I find appropriate. I did not see anywhere where loyalty was used to suggest that a boy needed to go from a pack to a Troop chartered by that same CO.