Hawkrod

I can only hope that somebody from the area does step up and preserve these. I am on the west coast and have collected a huge amout of local historical memorabilia because it is important and too many people forget where we came from. Old slides can easily be used to make modern prints (many scanners now will do it automatically!). I have collected a bunch of stuff like this and using frames from the local dollar store, I intend to eventually decorate buildings through out our local camp as soon as it is rebuilt. Unfortunately I have not been lucky enough to get something like boxes of slides and I sure wish I had. My best item is a 16MM film reel with dozens of vintage clips that I am planning to capture images from. Something simple like this can make a camp experience just that much more for boys attending camp and can also improve morale of camp staff when they are associated with the history. Sometimes it is about the show you create along with the program, it just adds to the experience. Putting vintage Scout pictures in hallways, mess halls, and the like will do a lot more than many realize. It has a positive psychological impact. Just in case anybody is reading this and wants some ideas, another inexpensive thing that you can do is use old Boys Life magazines as art because they tend to have little value but a lot of impact. If you have an ODS area at camp you can post ads from BL showing camping gear that BSA used to sell, it is amazing how excited the boys can get looking at old stuff like this! Just be sure they are mounted in such a way that they are protected from the elements (it isn't as hard as you might think!).

SaintCad wrote "The rule (and yes I did look it up) is once something is official BSA uniform wear it is official forever". Please note that this would only apply if your Troop approves the use of this type of hat. Hats are approved on a unit by unit basis and so if your Troop has not chosen to recognize the Campaign hat as official for your unit then it isn't appropriate to wear it and it would not be considered part of the uniform in that unit. The official line is "All troop members must wear the headgear chosen by vote of the troop/team" (from the uniform inspection sheet but it is listed in several documents). Hawkrod

The calls in our District were made by the OA youth leaders. Each boy got part of teh list. My son had to call each SM (some several times because he left messages and never heard back). The SM was asked to have somebody call back if they wanted an election so the PLC could plan a date and time. In many cases he was told to just show up on their next meeting night other times he was told they were not interested or that the CA had already spoken with them (usually at RT or at another event). I thought it was very good for the boys to be calling to set up the elections but I think the SPL or ASPL should really be teh contact point it is just that we have phone list of adult leaders but not youth leaders. I am not sure how the camping promotion meetings were set up but my son is participating in one this week.

I can't even imagine being my sons merit badge counselor! We specifically avoid having a parent to be the MBC for their own boy unless it is a group setting where all of the boys are working on an MB (for example camping where the SM may be the MBC and also has a son in teh unit). That concept takes away from what the MB program has to offer the boy. It is not just about earning an MB, it is about going out into the world and working with another person that they do not even know (which is my preference when I give out names for MBC's to our Troop). The personal growth of the boy is all part of the experience and making that phone call, finding another boy to work on it with them and then going to meet different people with different ideas on how it should be done are a huge part of earning an MB as far as I am concerned. My oldest son has about 2 dozen MB's and he has done no more than 3 with anybody (all the Cit ones were done with a CM from a Troop across town) and most of them were done with different MBC's. I can't even fathom doing it any other way. How can you teach life skills and leadership if your son only sees you? It's mind boggling! From the BSA MBC page: "Besides parents and relatives, schoolteachers, religious leaders, and possibly coaches, most Scout-age youth don't have much contact with many other adults or professionals. A Scout's association with his merit badge counselors provides an excellent way for him to grow and gain confidence through exposure to quality adults who serve as positive role models and mentors to him. Meeting people from business and community leaders to trained specialists and enthusiastic hobbyists, a Scout can experience a chance for personal growth and a positive life-altering experience while in pursuit of a merit badge."

I am sorry but did the definition of courteous change? Courtesy does not mean you have to accept a situation. It means that you handle the situation properly. Turning away a person or asking them to change is not a discourteous act, how it is done determines if it is courteous or not. Courtesy is treating a situation politely and with respect not simply accepting something that is improper because the other party did not know better. I think maybe some people may not be fully aware of what courtesy actually means and may be confusing the concept. As far as a dinner party at a home, yes, I have been at private parties in homes with dignitaries including Governors and the like. If the event is black tie it does not matter if it is in a home or a public function it is not appropriate to arrive improperly attired and allowing that person to attend could easily be construed as discourteous to everyone else attending. I also have to wonder at Twocubdad's note about waitstaff. You say I should allow them to do the job but take it up with the caterer? Sorry, I could never allow that to happen. If they show up dressed inappropriately, it does not matter if it their bosses fault or theirs, they will not be allowed to work until dressed properly and that is not a discourteous act either. I also equated OA with employees not because they are paid but because they are doing a job they committed to doing, they are not a guest that I invited to participate in my activity. They are coming to the Troops to do OA elections and camping promotions because it is their "job" not because they are our "guests" and maybe that is an issue of semantics. Those of us that participate in OA ceremony and unit functions beyond group gatherings and the like, do represent the OA to the units we provide service to (and that is why I equate it with a job) and have to maintain as high a standard as possible and if I am doing something wrong then both my son and I expect people to let us know otherwise we will continue to do it wrong and have those people talking behind our backs after we are gone! I will tell you that right after my son joined a ceremony team he arrived at an event in part of his regalia instead of a uniform and the CA let us know that it was not acceptable to do that. Lesson learned and we are better for it. We do try and set the example and the boys are expected to be the best of the best.(This message has been edited by Hawkrod)

I see a lot of opinions but I also see a couple of unrelated points or bad analogies that have been use that to justify the answers given. For example (sorry Beavah, yours is easy) It was asked "Would you embarrass a guest in your home by asking them to change pants before dinner?" and there are points that need to be addressed to respond to that. First how is an OA team like a guest in my house? I would more likely look at them as employees. They asked to come and do a "job" that they committed to do for the OA. If I had a party at my house and I used a company that hired a waitstaff and they showed up in casual wear I would send them packing. Same thing at work. Even in a job interview situation. I used to work for a very large corporation and I automatically ignored any applications if I knew the applicant picked up or dropped off an application or showed up for an interview wearing jeans. That simple. We were a suit and tie operation and if you were not dressed appropriately for the job you were not fit to even apply. I know for a fact that some of the people had potential but we had minimum standards and expected our applicants to live up to them. As far as the actual question about guests in my house? If I was having a formal party and somebody showed up dressed innapropriately then it is very possible and maybe even probable that they would not be welcome. At that point it would be dictated by the circustances. Had they flown in and their baggage was lost? If so did we try and find them appropriate clothing just as the SM did? If so then we would be in the same situation and would probably have handled it the same as the SM did. BUT, if they lived around the corner and just decided that they wanted to come to my dinner but formal was not something they were going to do then they probably would not be welcome. Again, allowing people to ignore or violate the rules just lowers the expectations and the end result is failure even if you achieve your goal. The ends do not justify the means in circumstances dictated by rules and obligations. Not holding OA to the standard is just what our newest ex-member was whining about when he wrote that the ideals were really not of any use. Who got that boy to that point? We did. Each and every one of use that let things slip and allowed unnacceptable behavior go. Why do we wear a complete uniform? Because it is part of the program. It works because of what it does and what it represents. As jet526 also noted, "As for a the lack pants being "normal and acceptable" for any unit...I guess it isn't any worse than the other seven methods being optional.". So what some people here are saying is that the seven methods are not important and so just do what you feel is "okay" right? So why bother with Eagle projects? They are good boys and they did show up occassionally, it would not be fair to tell their mother that they didn't do that POR in the last 6 months before their 18 birthday (from another recent thread). Ignoring that method has no more weight than ignoring the uniform method does it? The 7 prescribed method of Scouting are what we have agreed to follow. These are what we do. Ignoring any aspect because it is inconvenient or rude to a guest (and I still don't accept the OA being there as "guests" in that context) is still failing and accepting failure is not something I am prepared to do. Letting this uniform thing go would have been a failure on the part of the SM and I applaud him for doing the right thing. Doing the right thing is not always the easy thing and is a testament to his character. Now, having said that, once the SM had addressed it the issue, I think it should not have been addressed at the meeting by anybody else and the SM or CC should have contacted the LA to make the leadership aware of the issue afterwards.

I had to think about this issue a bunch before I responded because I know that no matter which way you respond somebody will take issue with it and being in such a low income area I do know how tough it can be to be able to put a uniform on each boy. I have run a used uniform library in our area for almost 7 years and have put uniforms on hundreds of boys. I try and keep at least 150 shirts on hand but it can be financially draining and it is also a lot of work. Recently another person in our area decided to try and start a library and trust me, I am grateful as I will be able to reduce or possibly even quit what I am doing as it has been a burden when there is so much else to do. The bottom line is that they could have borrowed uniform parts before they went, they could acquire used components at thrift stores or on eBay or Craigslist. The BSA has an established and printed standard that MUST be met. It is not optional for the boys to decide to do it because "that is how their Troop does it". There are always ways to make it happen and it is disapointing that an adult or the OA members would think that a partial uniform would be acceptable, now that I think about it I think the SM was too lenient. They only think that a partial uniform is acceptable because adults have set the bar low as has already been noted. It does not matter where or how, what matters is that there are rules and too many people are far too happy to bend each one of the rules just a bit because it "doesn't matter". Pretty soon we have lowered the standards and diluted the value of the program. We are simply devalueing what we are doing just as so many people in our society have done as a whole. The simple erosion of standards is one of the biggest threats to any program or group effort. We have laws that have no repercussions and we even overturn laws because "they are not fair" and most recently the Justice department has determined that Dayton Ohio must make a failing grade acceptable to become a candidate for the police department because anything higher than failing is ethnically discriminatory. Do you want a cop who failed the basic test? We just talked about the value of being an Eagle Scout and the same issues apply there as well, we have to stop saying "just this time". I am sorry that some see a partial uniform as acceptable because that is not the rules we operate under and even the local troop should not consider it acceptable. A proper uniform is prescribed and that is what the boys should be wearing and when representing the OA it becomes even more critical. JMO your mileage may vary.

eBay is the place you wanna be buying an official BSA campaign hat on the cheap. I just got a nearly new size 7 for $35 including shipping and last year got a 7 1/4 for a little less (no, I am not cornering the market, my boys want them because I have worn mine for years).

Sorry Lope but you wrote "when I feel qualified to give an answer that might actually help someone." so why did you drag up a sleeping thread and post while not providing any help? It is true that I stepped down after three years as the district Cub trainer because that was my original committment and you and Jessica were not even around when I made that committment. I did exactly as I promised to do even though I was asked to do the job under false pretenses and would never had done it had I known the truth. Despite being misled (and that is a very polite way of saying what happened) I did as I said I would and fulfilled my obligation. It is not up to you to decide when I can step down or stop training because that is for me to decide and I gave 6 months notice (which I think was plenty). As far as Jessica saving my life, that is a load of excrement. I had a hypoglycemic episode. I was not dying. The life she saved that day was the guy who wanted to give me mounth to mouth, I would have killed him when I got up. If you are going to lie at least do it intelligently. As far as the training you guys have done, if supplies came out of your pocket how come Council didn't make any money? And why is Council supposed to be making money? Get real. You were wrong them and you are still wrong and repeatedly canceling on Leaders is wrong no matter what. The sad part is I don't think the problem is you, I do think that you believe the falsehoods you have spread which is why we had to do what we did.

I have a modest collection of those and, I assure you, they are why I continue to beat my head against the wall! While I was a COR for a Cub Pack I had a Den Chief who's brother was in our Pack. He was a great kid and worked hard and was always there to help. He went with us to summer camp and the whole time he was with our Den he was always upbeat and positive. A while back he was looking for an Eagle project and came to talk to me about an idea he had about helping our CO by servicing the flags and sites we use as a fundraiser for the CO. It was a very well thought out project and we accepted his offer and he did the project with a very large group of boys from his troop (despite snow and rain while working outdoors!). I was very pleased as they worked hard and the things they did have been a great benefit to our CO and those involved in our community flag program. To make an already long story short, after it was all said and done, he presented me with a plaque for helping him achieve his goals. That plaque and the letters I have from various kids (some from other units as I have worked various camps for several years now) mean a lot more to me than the knots and medals that I have been presented with as "honors".

I want to point out to those that respond, there is no reasoning with this type of person. I think he is very Bill Clinton like and uses many of the same justifications to "prove" that his failures and shortcomings are actually advantages. The sad truth is he probably believes what he writes and just does not have enough experience in life to see that he is already on the road to failure. It is kind of like a train wreck, you see it but there is nothing you can do and you just sit and watch while shaking your head. I have worked with youth for quite a few years and I have met several people (both adults and youth) that like this boy, don't have the mental capacity to understand why the things they do are wrong and why they are less than acceptable. His justifications prove that he doesn't understand and the fact that there are boys who's parents did such a horible job raising them just proves why we need to do what we do. This boy is justification for helping others so they don't turn out like him. The jails are full of losers like this one and we even had another thread pop up about a couple of Scout killers that are basically the same kind of people as this one. The sad part is all of the ones like this that I have met all think they are pulling the wool over everybody else's eyes and the reality is it is very rarely that way. I have had to fire too many of them in my life and I just evicted one from a rental that I own. There are enough of them that they are dangers to themselves and to society. I think that omparing him to Bill Clinton was very accurate and I know another like him that everyone who knows him calls him "Weasel Boy" behind his back. He is also deluded and thinks no one sees the truth. It is very sad and you have to feel pity for these kinds of people.

He said he lied to get the OA info so we have to assume he is proud of lying and probably does it a lot. I will assume he is lying about 90% of the time based on what I am reading and I will assume he is really not an ASPL but probably an EX. He is definitley a Troll but if he is an ASPL it is a pretty sad Troop. There would certainly be no pride and honor in belonging to a Troop with somebody like that in a POR and if I were a member I would lie and say I wasn't! The sad truth is his philosophy (i think that the scout oath and law are to simplistic and idealistic. sometimes you have to violate theses ideas to get to your goals) is what is wrong in the world today and why Scouts are so important to our youth. fermi91 may have high goals but I think he probably needs to get used to asking "would you like fries with that?". And it is nice to have a poor example to talk about because it does remind us why we put in so much effort, to make sure there are not more people like him.(This message has been edited by Hawkrod)

I had not responded earlier about this but after thinking about it and speaking with some others I figured that I would add my 2 cents (but I expect change). The QU award is a unit award as mentioned earlier. It was earned through the combined efforts of the members in the previous year and is worn proudly on the uniform to indicate that you are a member of a good program. It is not won by individuals but as a group. Some members of that group are still with you and others may have gone on to another program. If they go on to another program they do not get to wear that QU as it represents their participation elsewhere and may not apply to the new unit. There are also new members of your unit that have joined since but they ARE members of your group and should represent your group and your accomplishments. We have people who may not have been with us last year but they are one of us now and we expect them to act like one of us and contribute like one of us. They also display the awards of our unit and wear the patch as part of the proper uniform. JMO, your mileage may vary.

I have to agree that it is not a primary document of policies but that does not invalidate the policies that it contains. Just because a policy is listed in the G2SS does not mean it is suggestion that you do it that way. It is still a policy and must be adhered to. There are other things included in the G2SS that are not policy but rather recommendations and you can use them as a guide to try and make choices based on your level of experience. In the end, any policies listed in the G2SS are official BSA policies and are not there for you to decide to do it that way or not. The book is what it says it is, a guide and some things must be done as prescribed and others are left to to the user to interpret. For example, age appropriate activities, let Cubs use power tools and lose a finger or hand and see if BSA provided insurance will cover you. That is a policy and violating the policy leaves you on your own. The G2SS is a primary RESOURCE document but does not supercede other BSA policy. I say it is a primary resource document because it is specifically provided by the BSA to do exactly that for unit leaders and is also why it is required for tour permits/plans. Why would it be required if it was not official? The tour plan specifically notes that "adult leaders have read and are in possession of a current copy of Guide to Safe Scouting" is a requirement of having a tour plan. To argue that it is not official and does not have any policy is mis"guided" (pun intended) and to say it is not a primary document is also wrong. The issue is that it is not a primary policy document, it is a primary program resource so it is an issue of semantics but using semantics to disembowel the document is simply folly and a misunderstanding or lack of comprehension of what the G2SS is supposed to be.

I guess it is semantics, my use of the word leadership was wrong because I define Charactor Development and Citizen Training as leadership skills. I was not refering to Leadership Development. I will try and avoid using that word as I am defining it differently. How about I restate the goal as creating better adults who have strength of character and lead by example? The bottom line is outdoor skills are not the goal, just a tool that only exist to achieve the goal. The lower ranks are there to teach the basic skills and the upper ranks are to teach the goals using the basic skills learned in the lower ranks.

SeattlePioneer, I don't know if I will ever get your point! LOL. You write "Ugh! More evidence for my theory that too much emphasis is placed on Eagle. My bias is to make First Class the major achievement in Scouting. Star, Life and Eagle are fine, but are mainly polishing what a Scout should already have learned. (Leadership skills being the exception to that general rule)" and yet the goal of Boy Scouts is leadership skills. There is no other point to Star, Life and Eagle, they are designed around leadership skills. Outdoor skills is not the goal of Boy Scouts, it never was and should never be. The entire program is designed to make better leaders and becoming and Eagle is specifically a measurement of what kind of leader you have become. My issue is with too many Eagle mills and "half hearted" Eagle projects that get approved that should never have been submitted. It is far too easy to get Eagle in some areas. Our District has been having issues with that and it specifically came up in our last meeting. The things we are reading about these boys in this thread are exactly why they do not deserve to be Eagles no matter how "good" a kid they are. An Eagle is a leader and should be recognized as such and the rank should be hard to attain. It is the goal of the program and only those who learn the skills and make the effort deserve it. Just my opinion and your mileage may vary!

Oak Tree is right on the money. If the program has been handled the way it should be (that is always the challenge isn't it?) then the COR is the one who would aprove or turn down a leader. The COR should be a member of the CO and is given the basic responsibility of managing the operation of the unit. It is the COR's job to make sure that the unit is performing as the CO wishes. The issue of the IH can be different in different units because of the structure of the CO. In our units I am the COR and I respond to the Board of Directors and not specifically the IH who changes yearly (most of the BOD sits for multiple years which gives a good footing) and does not have a vote in how we operate the unit. In a church there may not be anybody in the CO besides the IH to make the decisions. Basically the COR is the person who would make the final decision and if you don't like the one they made, you first appeal to them to change their mind and if that fails, you go to the IH to see about changing the COR (and if they are a real COR, good luck with that!).(This message has been edited by Hawkrod)

Lisabob makes an excellent point. One that has become all too commonly missed. I am fortunate in the fact that our CO BOD is very involved and is seeing what goes on first hand. Members of our BOD will occassionally drop in on meetings and expects a monthly report. Most CO's won't go that far but I am working with several COR's in our district to get them to better understand their part in this and help them improve Scouting in our community. We do have some people who would rather see things remain the way they are both because it is easier and also because they "have done it that way forever" but in this day and age we need every bit of support we can get and if getting the CO involved gets the program back to the forefront then it will benefit all of scouting not just that unit. An active CO promotes their units among other like minded members of the community and through this we are seeing more youth interested in the units and more community involvement. I will admit to being biased but it has worked well for us and also for the units that our unit has mentored.

My advise? Dot your I's and cross your T's. Have all the paperwork filled out and dated and signed before the 12th and let the Crossover be the formality. They will not likely be having a meeting between the 12th and 15th to work on advancement so it should not be an issue. If they have to meet between the 12th and 15th to finish Cub advancement then they are still Cubs and it just can't count (my opinion but I think if they are still working on Cub advancement I do not feel they should be starting on BS advancement).

I had teh same issues but in a very backwards way. I was made COR and really had no idea what was involved. I took the training and got a pretty good handle on it but it wasn't until I had issues outside of my unit and came here that I really fully came to comprehend what a COR "should" be doing. I have spent several years getting the CO involved with our units as they were totally hands off when I came along but they are now involved and several of them have become registered adults including one who has Scouting history and has become an Eagle Co-Chair for the District. The real trick is get them to name somebody who is both a member of the unit and of the CO as COR and then have them focus on relations. Make sure they come to committee meetings for the unit and go to any CO meetings. If you have a face that is at CO meetings on a regular basis you will end up with a decent voice especially as far as things like facilities go. It is a two way street though. The unit must be fulfilling the CO's goals and have an obligation to support the CO. Doing service is by far the best way but also if you are a church based unit make sure that the boys who are of that faith work on the religious awards so the CO will view the unit as part of their youth ministry (they do like getting behind that!).

I had twelve to fourteen Bears and cringe at the thought of some other poor soul having that many! LOL You really need two dens for the boys to get the most out of it and having two dens will also allow you to have "rank" events where the boys do stuff as a group (like hikes and such). Shuffling and splitting is very hard but look hard enough and you will find the DL's you need to make it happen so you can become the ACM. Also call around and see if you can find a UC to help you both with the DL issue and with training. The UC's usually have some pretty good ideas about getting people to help.

Wow, I have been here! LOL Fortunately the den leader did not last long. As I have mentioned before, both my son and I have Asperger's and it can be difficult as many of these kids are miles ahead of the rest and there will be some that will tear them down for their accomplishments. I will warn you that it will not always be better in Boy Scouts as there will be people there that do the same thing. I was accused of signing off my sons merit badges and this person went to the merit badge counciler coordinator to complain and also told others that my son did not do it. The sad part was he had earned all but one MB at camp and later at Jambo. He is now working on MBs with Troop members and going to councilers but it was hard to get there because of the accusations (BTW, he has been a Scout for less than 2 years and is Life with 24 MB's). The fix for us was a new den with a new leader who was willing to actually utilize his abilities and now a SM who does the same. My son earned all 20 pins (be sure to get that boy the Super Achiever patch and certificate!) and went on to help the other boys get all of theirs as well. In the Troop he is now an Instructor and although there have been moments, I keep an eye on him and all of the membership knows he has issues. His knowledge and ability to teach other boys is unsurpassed but sometimes it can be intimidating to other boys and especially their parents who hate the thought that somebody is "ahead" of "Johnny". It isn't supposed to be a race but when anybody gets "ahead" there are people who will take issue with it. Smart people will take advantage of it!

I was the District Cub Leader trainer for 3 years. I actually got snookered into the job when a DE used a little bit of flim-flam on me and I bit hook line and sinker! LOL I will be honest and tell you that I think there were better qualified people out there with much more experience but they were not willing to do it. I did step up and committed to fulfilling the obligation as I had given my word when the DE told me it was a 3 year deal. I crammed and took every bit of training I could and passed on some really great things that others had shared with me. I actually took some trainings multiple times in more than one district just to see how others were doing it which I recommend to any trainer! Now, I constantly run into people who took training from me and they continue to tell me that it helped them so I think we were on track and did a good job. I did cancel a training once as it required a number of bodies to do well (we were supposed to break into Dens as part of the training) and I only had two registered participants and they were coming from another District. I called them personally and I felt bad but I had been told over and over that we were not allowed to lose money on training. I also had to quit accepting walk ins at the training because of the food cost issue because I could not buy food in hopes that people would show up. I had a pretty good track record with participation and some trainings had dozens of people. Now the programs have changed and the most recent training have been an issue but we now have a new pair of Co-Chairs and I am hopeful that they will get the District back on track. I have offered to help some until they get the backlog resolved but unfortunately my time has become a premium and I am limited in what I am able to commit to. I will also add that my issue with the trainings that were cancelled was not just because they were cancelled. The trainings in our District were scheduled and had a good number of participants and then cancelled and rescheduled and cancelled again and then rescheduled and cancelled again etc...It was not just once. I recognize that problems and life get in the way but it happened to quite a few people more than once. Just last night I was at an AOL for another unit and a leader asked me to do the training for them as they also had been scheduled and actually showed up to find a dark meeting, that is the problem. It is never good to cancel training but it happens. The problem is when the trainer cancels and does not get the word out. You have to take that list of registered participants from Council and call each person individually to make sure that they are aware that the training will not be conducted as scheduled. Once that has happened it also becomes critical to hold the rescheduled training as too many people can't afford the time off of work/babysitters/transportation etc... and to do it to them several times is a big issue. You can literally turn attending a training into a hardship for some people. We do live in a relatively isolated area although I know of more isolated ares but we have both geographical issues and also socio-economic issues and many of our leaders are living on a shoestring and have no real alternatives.

To be honest, I can't take any credit for the incredible people chairing our events. The people in those positions have been doing them for at least a couple of years and are very good at what they are doing. That is part of why I was willing to accept the position, I knew there was excellent leaders in place and my job would be to support them. These people are all amazing Scouter's who not only chair the events, they are Commissioners, Key 3, and Chairs of other District committees. The reality is they are already Super Scouters and every member of our District owes them a big THANK YOU!!!!

Sorry, the District trainer screwed this one up (and several others) and deserves all of the blame for failing to provide the program that she scheduled. The leaders realize training can be done anywhere but they did not plan to travel because it was scheduled locally and it is a minimum hour plus driving in any direction to another District from where I am and many local leaders here could not possibly afford to travel for the training. For some of our District leaders like those at Fort Irwin it can be a three hour drive each way to the next District and so it is critical that the training be conducted as scheduled. Better to not be put on the schedule than scheduled and canceled at the last minute over and over. Unfortunately I did not know about this until a few days ago or I would have conducted the training myself (I was the previous trainer). Fortunately we just got a new pair of training co-chairs and they are committed to rectifying this immediately and we will be having Baloo and OWL ASAP (and yes, I have offered to assist). I am waiting to find out about the tour plan as I had already talked to the DE so based on your explanation I will call Monday.(This message has been edited by Hawkrod)