anarchist

oldsm, I see nothing wrong with aquiring and holding on to the ribbons. We have troop ribbons from 1952 that I would never even think of removing from our flag! the ball of bibbons at the top of out flag is very large. they are hung from a circular ribbion bracket that fits between the pole and the finial (spear pointie thing on top). We made a flag shroud large enough to cover it all which makes tranport a breeze. If the size of the "display" causes a problem perhaps you might want to build a troop (and patrol version) coup stick (pole) to sit in a corner of your meeting hall... You could make several "rationalized" versions...say, keep activities and conpetitions on the troop flag and then move patrol ribions to separate coup sticks ( patrol ribbon should be on patrol flags anyway, (not on the troop flag, IMHO). And then other ribbions - 100% boys life, (or whatever) to the troop coup pole... Coup sticks (from the french "couper" - to cut or strike), for the Native American challenged or those having forgotten their cubbie years... is a decorative system of logging the number of times a warrior did something brave or notable...such as the capture or rescue of a horse or comrade, the hit or touch a dangeous enemy without being injured...etc. Along these lines -we also have a "skin" hanging on the wall of our scout room thats kind of neat...a dad awhile back cut a large tan piece of felt into the shape of a "bear skin". On this he stitched one of all of the camporee patches, summer camp patches and district award patches that the troop has earned over the years...History is good! It helps inculcate (see us neanderthal know a few important words) in the scouts a feeling of belonging to something ongoing and special. anarchist

Yeah, I guess we just need FScouter, OGE, Hunt and eagle pete need to set up the BSA prank police to clear the jokes...if it is funny we must STOP IT! I don't think any of us mentioned hammering on any one...and did not deserve the inference... So, I guess its pure science that we scar someones psyche by sending him for a left hand smoke shifter...(which is pure fluffernutter...)I sense a full circle here ... so I think we have beaten this old horse to death... Us bad people neanderthals will never please the more evolved empathethics...we are wrong and terrible they are right and virtuous...I'm ready for a Jackie Gleason tape...and maybe a jackie daniels... grins Anarchist...think I'll short sheet the SM...next week!

prairie, yeh, snorin not only keeps the lions, tigers and bears away but we haven't seen any elephants, dragons or school teachers neither... We used to have an absolutely wonderful scouter who had all kinds of breathing snoring issues...Everyone would wait to see where he would pitch his tent and then try to park as far from him as possible...then at night most of us alternated between wondering when the "Kodiak bear fight" would end ....or during numerous silences wondering if he would take another breath....(breathe steve breathe!) and Beavah in many of the areas we camp having a ten or eleven year old wandering around alone- say three o'clock in the AM is cause enough to require a "buddy" be alerted... and be "helpful"...Sorry you feel it's an issue...not every new scout has your obvious good sense of direction...or is wide awake at three...and all it takes is one very long night wandering a lake shoreline praying and looking for a young lad- to make you a believer... anarchist

OH boy...chartering on time... I guess how long the lapse is a consideration too...but for starters- First, if you are not "chartered" in our council...your paper work (like for Eagle Scouts or out of tour permits, Seabase, Philmont, etc. gets rejected at the desk...they just hand it back... Second, techincally you have no BSA insurance...you are not part of the insurable "pool". Then there can be esoteric ramifications that while having little or no real world impact like: "sadly, I am part of a troop ( a sound, active program) that was originally Chartered in the fall of 1951...but the charter lapsed for about four to six months in the early eighties. After I started helping out here, the troop committee decided to start planning a "50 Year Aniversary" tied to a town celibration and a parade. It was going to be a big effort. The dad who was doing some of the basic research was having trouble finding time so I was "elected" to "deal" with council...find names of old...long lost scouts etc. Bottom line -when Council found out what I was doing we were told in no uncertain terms that Council and National would not support our unit's claim...As far as they were concerned the troop was about 15/16 years old (date of the recharter after the lapse)...not 50 Years Old. And of course all this begs the question - Why would you want to be late...its not that hard anymore? With Troop Master you can get a lot ready fairly early. At least in our council...we have a district training event for the recharter process and each unit sends a representative...It's not rocket science. And the wonderful, "ghee, I wish the Commissioners really did come around" is one of those universal questions like the "chicken or the egg" that have little practical meaning or necessity. Just get 'er done! Anarchist

a tenting I will go, a tenting I will go.... only policy on tenting I can recall is BSA (a long while ago) had a size policy for long temp camping...("x sq. ft. per boy) and THAT was probably to keep the guys from getting on each others nerves ... You are definitely "spot on" when dealing with 40/50 scouts wanting to tent alone and some (many? most?) camping sites simply not being big enough for that. We have been at many national park sites where the youth group camping sites are rated for 20-25 campers and if you can get ten tents set up you feel like your camping on top of each other...let alone having space for 20 tents... We generally sleep two boys to a 2 man Timberline XT and three boys in 4 man Timberline XT's. We have a great number of (troop tents) - two mans, and 7 -four man tents to handle the odd number of scouts on our campouts. We also practice the buddy system from the day they bridge into the troop at all activities. Your tent-mates are/is your buddy(s) for the event. I've always thought that when things make sense...you don't need a BSA regulation.... Our primary reasoning for "two to a tent" is the ol' "middle of the night nature call" which for many of our camps could result in a dip in the lake or river if a scout is not quite awake or becomes disoriented...troop policy is "ya wake up, ya get your buddy up to take the trip with you..." We allow our SPL or acting SPL to sleep alone if he/they so desire (perk of office?) Since they are not part of any patrols... Adults sleep, generally, one to a tent and snoring scouters usually move out to "the edges" to scare off the bears. Anarchist

Its not just about fear is about being "P.C"., in this case psychologically correct... so many little boys seem to have be emotionally scarred by what many used to call boys rights of passage that in the name of "P.C." we take all challenges away, we take all exposure to difficulties away, we take the chance to fail away...and then we wonder why little johnny can't handle the pressure in the real world... Its not about scouts hammering scouts or anyone else for that matter. Its about jokes and humor and because some of us can deal with embarrassment we stop the game...and make everyone get off...and folks if you are still carrying the baggage of being embarrassed because you were naive..I'd suggest counciling you've been suffering way too long... many years ago on a canoe trip we stopped and camped in a large farm field...complete with fresh cow piles... the first thing the older scouts did that night was organize a "run and drop" hike. It is where a leader starts running and everyone follows ...and when he says drop...everyone belly flops...this goes on for a couple of hours and by the end most guys have to walk down to the river to at least wash out their clothes... then they organized a typical snipe hunt... I recall a very young scout (who had been one of my wolf/bear/webelos as a cub, staying out in the field for hours (it seemed) after everyone else "gave up". He still thought he would win the prize by catching a snipe...only after "coming in" later that night did he realize he had been "had". Did he run off and cry or start wetting the bed? no he just sat there eating his well deserved popcorn, listening to older scouts recount the shore line they searched for , the smoke shifters borrowed and the bacon stretchers asked for...all the while shaking his head and grinning "'cause he was now one of the gang". BTW...He is now the troop SPL and about a month away from his Eagle... Anarchist a neanderthal(This message has been edited by anarchist)

A sadness ...we are afraid of our own shadow...so we reduce "fun" to the least possible negative outcome...or zero! Last true prank in our troop...about three years ago at summercamp...Acting SPL and Acting ASPL (both life scouts on their way to eagles) were having a difficult time with two of the older souts (both 14/15 Y.O. Stars on their way to life)...something about mouthing off and refusing to "join in the program". SPL and ASPL developed a plan and duct taped them in their sleeping bags to their cots...(nicely done while they were asleep...if I do say so myself)... took the boys about ten minutes to free themselves at sunrise (taping done just before sunrise) While the assembled troop watched an laughed... ASM "in charge" took SPL and ASPL aside an told them what they did while funny was on the edge and to not repeat the exercise again...Troop went on to have a wonderful summer camp and the ASM and all adults helping reported the SPL and ASPL (acting) were outstanding in their leadership and efforts to help their scouts succeed (both went on to be elected SPL/ASPLs)... The week after summer camp the CC (at the time) started sending out emails about troop hazing and the penalties he would be enacting on the two scouts...troop policies he was putting in place etc...that darn near split the troop apart...The ASM in charge responded that he had handled the matter, the parents of the two "taped" scouts reported that infact, no long term physchologial damage was evident - no trembles or bed wetting...infact both boys reported they had the best time at summer camp ever! And moreover, they felt more a part of the team than they ever had before (though one dad did say his son seemed to have a new affection for duct tape....humm) In any case, since then no pranks of any kind are/have been allowed on troop activities and "mudville" it seems has no joy... A month ago, after an Eagle work project my youngest son, who dropped out of scouting last year (and was there working to support his old buddy),...when asked on the drive home if he missed being with his old scouting friends ...reported that the older scouts were telling him that the adults had taken all the fun out of Summer Camp and Seabase -seems like the boys think we couldn't let "boys be boys" anymore...and oh yes, the two duck taped scouts both Life ranked (and dads both ASMs) dropped out last year cause they weren't having fun...Adult leaders were just too strict...guess it bears thinking about and watching... humm? Anarchist(This message has been edited by anarchist)

Gonzo1, ouch! hearing "dirt" from a "friend" knocking down the troop your boy choose had to start the negative juices flowing a bit...but please stop take a deep breath...and observe first. Keep in mind that It is not your place to tell the scouts anything...there is a chain of command that only gets "Adult trumped" in a truely "dangerous"or outrageous set of circumstances... As a new adult before you get down on folks you don't know give them a chance...perhaps there is a reason your son picked this group that is below your radar...maybe he thinks he will have fun and these boys helped him feel that way. Rumors sometimes are not correct...some times "rough and tumble" troops evolve but the old "rep" hangs on... little story...our last SM (a true "RGG" - really good guy) freely admits that he was sure his son had made a BIG mistake choosing our rural, rogue troop...a bunch of redneck hard cases...This RGG had been a PM for his cub pack (a good catch for any troop) and had been told that our boys did pranks, were jocks and were intimidating to civilized troops and our scouts made new scouts sing stupid songs....on and on .... Funny thing is, his son visited several troops twice but only felt truely welcomed by our rough and tumble meanies. Well I guess we brainwashed his dad cause a couple years later "RGG" stepped up as our SM and later walked along side my oldest as he passed his Eagle Board and just last month his own son "scored" an Eagle! (darn jocks!) Safety first of course...but LOOK things over before you worry about being a back seat driver...pay some dues before you step on toes...its always easier for the old guard to accept "instruction" from someone who is in the program for the long haul than getting a kick in the seat from a "newbie"...just take your time a bit... And just maybe the "needed adults" watch over the scouts and the "excess adults" get chained up next to the coffee pot...A situation I'd (sometimes)like to see more of..... good scouting Anarchist

CNYScouter, On the project ...everyone is correct about district doing the approval...and project in the public domain happen all the time...helping the "public" is worth while though usually unappreciated. Major pit fall to consider...you note the plans may have to be "approved" by the County...Do that me some folks just saying "Looks ok to us" or are you taklking about county construction permits, code approved drawings and all that entails? I asked because two years ago I watched a boys Eagle project crash and burn because of County requirements and the "insinuation" of code requirements where code requirements were clearly not applicable... They (county inspectors) did it because he was a kid and could not afford to hire an attorney to fight them and everytime they raised an issue the CO added the requirements to the project right or wrong because the County brought it up it must be prudent to include it...A small, one step above grade stage (platform)in the woods near the church (for outside sermons and nature classes), that originally should have cost about $1,000.00 blossomed into a $4,600 safety railed, electrified (for safety foot lights) monster. Despite suggestions to find a smaller dream, the boy would not change his project (strong headed) but in the end he got so frustrated that he never finished the project...and he had invested over a years work trying to raise money and line up contractors...so be careful that the scope does not grow... Anarchist

gtscouter, Lots to do and if you don't have access to "on the water time" before your trip...one word...DON'T (period). Water skills must be mastered on the water. I second the motion on the American Canoe Association material( they're located on Alban Road in Springfield, Virginia)...they have several reasonably priced books on fundamental skills as well as TEACHING canoeing and they offer classes on the same topics held at various locations across the country. You do not want to be on the river with a young boy who scares the "juice" out of the leaders and himself and then refuses to get back in the canoe...in the middle of nowhere! nor do you want a young scout not pulling his on weight because he "just can't do it!" it not fair to the other scout in the boat. Get 'em trained...First all are to be "BSA" swimmers, then get your leaders lined up with Safety afloat and Safe Swim Defence and CPR certification (a must). Then show a few training tapes in your meetings (path of the paddle series is very good)and then get to a lake as soon as the water is warm enough for some flat water training and as often as you can. Then find a novice rated river to start on and if you do not have well trained canoe "leaders" engage an outfitter to supply you with a guide or trip leader for your first event... Know your rivers...if you do not have first hand knowledge try to get it...talk to folks who know the river, read river guide books, take a private trip with folks who know the river...Most States have canoe clubs that will greet you with open arms and most of these clubs have monthly trips on local rivers that you and others can float along (the fees are usually really small). Then figure out how much water flows in each of your "target" rivers during the usual warm weather months...(more research) some rivers dry up fast and a canoe trip planned for the wrong month can be more of a wet hike...a bad wet hike...than a float trip. Our troop trip leaders requires scouts to be flat water trained (two weekends- about 8-12 hours on the water-summer camp is nice but we do our own) plus an easy novice river before hitting class one rapids and two days (8-12 hours of paddling)on novice class one rivers before hitting class two water. Even when we are on these trips we usually do some training during the first couple of hours on the water. Training and safety can never guaranty an accident free trip but it sure cuts your odds of having to face a bad outcome and some boy's greiving parents. Once had a parent challenge me as to "who was I to make up such rules about what he or his boy needed to do before going on a river trip with the scout troop?" (I'm not the SM BTW)...my answer was simply I was the guy who would leave him and his son there in front of the church without a canoe if he didn't get with the program. It seemed to work...they got trained...Our annual 100 mile canoe trip is an awsome incentive. Do the hard work and the fun is more rewarding and sweeter! course then there are the canoe liveries that rent boats to the public on easy rivers and you can just "take your chances"...But, we hope not! good luck Anarchist

Head lights are great! Though, I still carry an old "AA" maglight on my belt...habits are hard to break. Currently use a tikka plus (with the red flip lens... for fishing), and I have a Cabellas single LED super lite that I drag along as a back up. I started with the eveready "twin white LEDs w/single red LED" and frankly it is a great light...was about $13- now down to $9.97 at WalMart and Eveready now has a 6 white two red LED version for $14.00. Some of my friends use really nice $50-$90 lights but for most scouts the small LEDs are perfect...and mom and dad don't break down and cry when Junior forgets where in the woods he last saw it... I try to point most parents towards a WakMart LED light...though some insist on buying the big heavy flashlight sized headlights - you know the ones that look like old miner lights, weight a pound and a half and that the boys hate wearing after an hour or two! Anarchist Anarchist

Wow, this one should be interesting... First, how many? how long? many variables. We find the Adventure Fundimentals first Aid packs good for most of our needs...REI (I think) +/_ $100.00 each. These are fairly comprehensive in supplies, organized basically along jury type/needs and quite a bit more versatile than the drug store/Walmart kits we started with years ago (which, by the way are, IMHO, quite satisfactory for the average hike or campout). I think it (Adventure Fundamentals kit)is rated for up to eight people for 10-14 days...each of our patrols is issued one of these before every trip and the adult "patrol has one. Additionally each boy is expected, in his scout essentials, to carry a small personal "kit" that includes a blister kit w/moleskin and an epi-pen if he has allergic reactions to anything- (parents of scouts with allergies are also asked to give the trip leader an extra epi-pen just in case Junior mis-places his 'needle'). In addition to these kits, In our trailer, we have a larger self-stocked plastic (water tight) tool box (our group car-camp box) and a bright red five gallon water proof screw topped bucket (for river trips) with small surgical kits (U.S. surplus field surgical gear), widerness emergency medical books, extra gauze, bandages, Extra CPR gear, and bottles of Peroxide, betazine, chlorox, flexible splits, several ace bandages, instant Ice/Heat packs, stethiscope, etc. You might want to pick up a few medical books like one of my favorites for weekends out and abouts - "Mosby's Outdoor Emergency Medical Guide" by David Manhoff or "Pocket guide to First Aid" by Betty Cards and Gary Lafontain both of which are fairly small spiral bound books- so they stay open. "Wilderness Medicine" by Dr. Bill Forgey is considered by many to be "THE" expedition medical book to take along on long wilderness adventures...But besides that it has a great list if what kinds of "stuff" you should have in your medical kit. There are many others -check them out at major libraries to see which ones might suit you best ...if possible. In many cases it boils down to what you want to spend...and the kind of trips you are taking. Good luck with this thread....should be more like it! Anarchist

oldsm, Lets see, 12-14 committee member who pay (jointly) $120-140 annually to BSA, don't cause any trouble and cost the unit zip, nil, nada? Math looks great to me! So, what's the real issue? Anarchist

AntelopeDud, First Kathleen Meyers book is worth the dollars or at least a trip to the library...some of it will be having you busting a gut...in a nice way, of course... As to why we should all be thinking "carry it out", besides it being the law in many parks and some states/counties, with many of the wilderness areas we visit we are not blazing 'new trails'... We are following hundreds sometimes thousands of visitors along the same ridges, passes or rivers each year. From experience I can tell you that thirty five years ago on certain river trips I could camp on any island or beach in pristine confort with an occaisional "trot" up the hillside for the relief of a cat hole...now unfortunately, with all the canoes on the rivers each summer(lower 49), most of the better "public land" non developed campsites are festooned with little piles high-lighted by small "flags" of toilet (app) paper...and some islands are now... shall we say aromatically challenged. Nothing finer than sitting on a river island sipping coffee as the sun goes down and having the wind change blowing the smell of the last campers poor hid "deposit" your way... With all of the use most areas now get we simply have to make a major effort to reduce our impact so other who follow us (even if that's next week)can enjoy the same clean experience. Now an advertisement...(I have no interest in this product but for canoe camps it is great our troop has been using it for years). It is called a PETT toilet and is made of high impact plastic, has three legs, and it folds to the size of a old smith carona portable type writer (or very large lap top computer for you kids out there). It uses a Wag bag system that not only is "zippable" (like a zip lock) but it has a treatment chemical inside that starts working on all that "wonderful product of too much spaghetti and coffee" immeditely and results in a bag of poop that is LEGALLY- EPA approved for land fill disposal...(just using a plastic bag in a bucket and dropping the bag in a dumpster/trash can or landfill is illegal in most jurisdictions). While the "throne" (which is very comfortable and stable) is not likely to be usable for hikeing the bags can be used with out the "throne". Ms Meyers book has other suggestions also... and yes I seem to get more than my share of poop duty...I'll take a lot of #%@* to get on the river for a while.... ANARCHIST

fgoodwin, I am gonna limit this to activity / event planning so if you want our annual planning (calendar) methodology let me know (PM?). A while back our SM started "requiring" each patrol to plan and organize "patrol only" activities consisting of one 2-hour patrol activity, one day long activity(six to eight hours) and one camping trip (Friday, Sat, Sunday) and the patrols are "challenged" to do this at least twice a year (Fall and Spring). Even the new scout patrol is expected to do these activitys (the troop sets aside weekends for "Patrol camps" so there are few conflicts. Do they just jump in and get 'er done?...Of course not, but using the BSA program features forms and suggestions/ideas they get "walked" through the process...some of this is in PLC meetings, some in patrol time at the weekly troop meeting (each patrol has at least one ASM assigned to support that patrol) and some planning is done in their own special Patrol only meetings - no adults allowed. By starting with a two hour (or more) activity (say a trip to a museum ('course it always takes more than two hours) or even a movie and pizza-"team builder" the boys get to deal with "what, when and how". They have to "arrange" transport, deal with out outdoor coordinator for the tour permit specifics and figure out the general program al the while making sure they have a couple of adults available to support the ativities. After the two easier activities, then they move to the all day event, (a hike, canoe day on a lake, fishing trip, geo caching, map compass GPS skills day...whatever). They need with this activity to really start learning to develop "a program" and plan for the activity so all scouts (patrol members) are actively involved. All this is still on a relatively small scale. Then comes the weekend camp and they have to do it all (with the assistance of their ASM and parents)...its really cool to see it start coming together...And after they have been scouts for a couple of years it actually seems to come together pretty nicely...as long as the patrol elects a reasonably decent PL...Of course, as in all we do in scouting it requires five times as much time as an "Adult Led" but in the end it can be really cool. When these boys "move up" into troop leadership the Annual Planning meetings really fly -what used to take several meetings between the PLC and the SM before the plan is ready to be presented to the Troop Committee now takes one or two meetings... PLCs are generally easier too, last week on of the Platrol Leaders suggested setting up a troop binder with all of the "patrol only" planned activities (including the thorns and roses). This suggestion was so other (newer) patrols could use the binder for guidance and perhaps avoid the pitfalls and/or improve on some of the activities that work "less than spectacularly".... just some thoughts anarchist

pogy, poagie, pougie, poagy bait.... USMC if there was a grunt dictionary.... several definitions the best is probably not acceptable to post in this forum... best to say.... its candy and junk that attacts young people of all sorts (but not Grunts) probably derives from the catching of a small fish (poagies) with trash (scraps) and then using the poagie for bait for larger fish or other uses....fries with that? anarchist

Scoutmaster Ron, Rust is easy...light rust...wash in hot water with a stainless steel scrubbie...rinse set in oven at 250-300 until it looks dry take out and whipe with a lint free rag and oil, reheat again about 20 minutes and repeat the rub down, should be set for cooking... seasoning- use the Iron as a deep fryer, set it up on your propane stove and fry chicken, fish, potatoes, and a favorite with the scouts...biscuit donuts!.... Just "fill" that sucker with oil and heat to frying temperature and cook away! (just be carefull with all that very hot oil and the 'flames') Heavy rust..go get a reasonably clean large container -rubbermaid horse feed bins are nice but trash cans work well also...(I've used cardboard boxes lined with several heavy duty trash can liners in a pinch). Set your Iron Oxide D.O. (lid to the side) in the container and fill the container with COKE COLA! (catch it on sale for less than a buck a large 2 litre bottle) couple of bottles usually do the trick...let it set for two or three days and take a bronze or brass wire brush to the iron...inside and out...follow with a hot water scrub with the stainless scrubbie (NOT STEEL WOOL) and then start to season...this takes several "heat and whipe" sessions with oil...and I like to really slather on the oil (inside the oven and do my final reheat with the dutch oven upside down so the final "slathering" drips out of the oven on to a baking pan...this avoids having too much oil...puddling inside ... then its back to cooking (deep frying if possible)! hot pots and good food- life is short! anarchist

Man o' man. Tin foil in Iron?!?...Generally speaking, an unwarranted waste of natural resources! (scout is thrifty..conservation minded)(parchement can have its place, though). Using "tin" is also a "Waste" of training objectives - teach'm right and food doesn't stick! Teach 'em planning and execution and time is not an issue. And most of all- teach the scouts that "clean-up" can be a great time to shoot the bull...build friendships, swap yarns...Goodness kitchen duty is not sweat shop labor! And if the QM inspects all D.O.s that night and then the next morning...poorly cleaned and seasoned ovens go back for a second (third?)time...After "do overs" once or twice the scouts know that troop Iron is nearly sacred and it gets done right the first time! Finally, In our adult kitchen we make a big effort to show scouts good natured team work and and comraderie (sp?) Everyone pitches in and our "clean ups" are reasonably good times...Many Dads volunteer for the D.O.s cause they know clean up is not as hard as scrubbing some pots...(though a cold beer ...oh never mind). Rather than fool with "fire" during clean up teach the scouts to use the stoves where possible...also have the right tools, wood or hard plastic scrapers (or old credit card- your wife's?), plastic/nylon scrubbie or hard nylon bristled brush and three cups of hot water will clean most D.O. in almost no time...quick reheat and a "kiss of oil" and pop the D.O.s back in their bags and its on to the camp fire! And Eamonn, last I checked, the small aluminum D.O.s cost more than 12/14 inch high quality D.O.s- so much for "cheapies"... One other point...about our women being "smarter", thusly teaching us to use "tin foil"....Our family doctor (who, I think, is older than god) firmly believes if women went back to cooking more in "iron-ware" he would see many fewer iron deficient women...urban legend? I wonder... (let the pummeling begin!) Anarchist

robvio, Good luck and thanks for what you are doing! How many boys? How many close together local schools for recruiting? What happened to kill the old program? Anarchist

robvio, Just looking at our roster, we have 48 registered scouts, 14 registered committee members (10 trained) and 12 assistant scoutmasters of whom, including last weeks district training-10 are now "trained". We assign one ASMs to each patrol (two when possible) They assist the PLs and are the "up front guys" when the patrols have Patrol activities; hikes, campouts, day trips. Many of our "committee members are actually crossed trained as ASMs and are as active camping as our ASMs(or more so!) EXTRA ASMs also keep the SM from going nutz and give him a break from needing to be at every event on our hyper active schedule. (saving his marrage in the process!) Aside from above mentioned "patrol" duty, ASMs can be the adult mentors for your QM, ASPL, Historian, Guides, Instructors, be your Advancement coordinators, New Scout patrol Training mentor, Outdoors coordinator-(this guy helps the Patrols and scouts work through the Tour Permit process), Summer Camp coordinator (helps the scouts select the summer camps and then acts as troop adult contact for the whole process. Find meaningful work even if it is to be a warm body on "just two events per year!" Then get them trained. You never Know what kind of "jewels' you will find...but many of them really sparkle when polished up a bit. GET OUT THOSE ADULT APPLICATIONS before they "get away"! Anarchist

Baden, Sounds like a wonderful church and you did a great job supporting the boys who remained...and yes some religions (and/or families) discourage their parishoners from active participation in "other church's" rites. However, some boys may never have even seen a communion rite and you "did good" in giving them "cover" if that was the case. Some may have other reasons for not participating which in the long and short of it are none of our businesses...Keep up the good work... and Novice? What Super Bowl??? anarchist

Cooking, ahh, such a heart warming subject... In our troop, We have only done a real "all meals troop kitchen" once in 12 years...other than that, all troop activities are based on patrols...each patrol plans its meals...makes a shopping list, appoints a grub master as part of the activity duty roster, collects grub money and does its own shopping...Troop stays out of it. However, SPL (sometimes with gentle guidance from the SM) looks over each menu during the planning stage (Last meeting night prior to the event). This is to be sure it's not all sugar and chips...He also keeps a weather eye out for operational difficulties, such as boys planning a super involved meal when there is a time crunch (like district camporees 3x a year) Don't want the guys half finished their "blue trout" or stuffed peppers or D.O. Roast Lamb or waiting for the bread to bake - when they have to be at the District Closing Campfire, do we?! On some events when time is critical, a bowl of instant oat meal and a donut for breakfast, or a cold cut sandwich and chips at lunch is perfectly fine -if the order of the day is to rush off to the "races". On our longer hiking trips, we break the patrols down into groups of two or three scouts (buddy system), who plan their own meals to be prepared on the backpacking stoves they are issued for the hike. This makes large meals (large pots)difficult, so smaller scale cooking makes sense and trust me there are a lot of noodles going "down the hatch" on these events...and sausages and hard cheese and crackers...but we have never lost a scout to starvation or scurvy...Common sense (which, often times, is not so common in young men) is backed up by a trained senior scout staff! (with a little help from their adult friends)...doesn't happen own its own or by accident...takes planning and training. But in cooking one thing works time and time again...If the adults (and the more senior scout patrols) cook great meals the younger boys will want to eat well too! Very few, (my oldest son being the exception) would rather eat hot dogs -meal after meal, after meal! Especially, when the guys "next door" are pulling barbeque ribs out of a dutch oven and the adults have a couple of chickens hanging over the fire pit wafting wonderful smelling aromas across the camp...and samples are "costly" in terms of that time honored scouting system of "mooching"...Our boys do learn to cook...

Ah come on Eamonn, "deathbed" is just a tongue in cheek way of saying the boys get their Eagle just before aging out...Hopefully while staying at least somewhat active in the troop... Frankly, as I said in the distant past, I would rather have Life scouts active in our program and then "Eagle out" on the eve of their eighteenth birthday than have a 14 y.o. Eagle that we never see again -after his ECOH...The first scout must be having fun in our program; the latter is either just punching his resume ticket...or what?...( the same program failed him...hummm?) Interstingly enough, Last night we had a troop COH and our SPL turned over the "keys" to his ASPL because he turned 18 on the 25th of January...His Eagle S.M. conference was held at 7 P.M. on the 24th...less than perfect? Perhaps, but the boy has been "in the troop" with usual expected lapses for High school sports, band, etc... I am particularly proud of him 'cause he was one of "my boys" way back when I was a wolf/bear/webelos leader...so I do not begrudge him his "deathbed eagle"...not one darn bit...the program was for him...not for the troop leaders, and as far as I am concerned he gave back as much as he has recieved by having fun and staying active! "Eagle" is not the point of the program...it is a nice place to hang your hat for a while...but it is just another "place" along the way of a (hopefully) bigger journey... Anarchist

gwd-scouter, buck up! Just do your best...want some really bad news? as you wrote; "I read those posts and I wonder how you guys ever got there. It seems such a lofty goal for our little troop. Sometimes, especially after a particularly difficult or disappointing troop meeting, I'll read one of those posts and just think to myself..."there's just no way we'll ever get there." Friend, you may never get there...It seems around my 'neck of the woods', the average Scoutmaster may serve 4 or 5 or even 6 years, but rarely more. I have helped 4 scoutmasters during my tenure in Boy Scouting He or she may actually have the troop heading in the right direction after four or five years but it can turn around (for the worst) quickly...All you can do is try hard to leave a strong program and a strong set of new leaders...Most of the "really strong troops" have literally decades of strong history that seems to help perpetuate the system...On going, strong outdoor programs seem to attract the hard chargers and the dedicated leaders needed to keep programs running. Our troop (54 years old and counting) draws from three to four packs every year...while we do not get all the Webelos crossovers (nor would we want to)...we do get a good number of those packs Leadership corp...Den leaders, Cubmasters and CCs...These folks know what experience they want for their sons and seemingly gently 'guide' them towards such a decision. We currently count two past cub CCs, and three past Cub masters in our ASM corp. Occaisionally, a SM comes along with 2 or 3 or (God bless him/her)even 4 sons and you end up with an "institution" but that is rare these days (our first Scoutmaster led this rural troop for 20 years!). Even with long serving SMs the troops go through good years and bad...good SPLs and really bad ones...good recuitment years and some not so good.... So buck-up, square those shoulders...and 'grin at the devil'!...What you do is for the boys and one or two of them (we hope) will one day remember that 'kind and helpful' Scoutmaster and pay it all back! (I know I have tried to do just that (pay-back)for over 13 years now!)...And thank you for what you do! Anarchist

E-man, Since much of the "reader/poster distress" comes from the "Issues and Politics" threads" (go figure!) Perhaps, you and OGE could use your good graces to get Terry to change the explanative discription (under ther thread general heading) from- "In answer to many requests, we established a separate forum for these topics. Those not interested can skip this forum instead of spending time reading unwanted messages to identify content. " to something more clear...like- "ABANDON ALL HOPE, YE WHO ENTER HERE" after all...it seems to be closer to the mark... Anarchist