anarchist

Beavah, long but you asked for it.... Our "line" moves constantly...as needed. As I have said in previous posts we encourage parents to help as they can. Go ahead sign up and put the "suit" on...Last month I accompanied 6 parents to their first Scoutmaster specific training class...It helps attendance for them to know that an old old man is going to bring the coffee and make sure they are there on time...(and hold their hands) Our troop likes to grow adult leaders almost as much as we like growing scout leaders. We have a very active program with anywhere from 13 to 18 troop outdoor events annaully usually a large summercamp contingent (30+ boys) and most years at least one group doing seabase or philmont (or both like this year) and an annual minimum of 6 "patrol only" activities. And as Adult leaders sons 'age out of scouting it helps to have a host of newer adults to fill in the gaps as they occur. Particularly with the younger patrols (our NSPs tend to stay together through their scouting "careers"), adults are really needed. If a Scoutmaster was expected to be at each activity...there would be a permanent "help wanted" sign at the church. So we encourage parents to be involved and get trained. And just like new scouts, we do not give them a uniform and turn them loose. Starting at our shake-down campout for the new scout patrol, the SM takes every new parent who wants to go (this is a "car camp" BTW). He also "takes them out of action". He and they spend the whole weekend learning to be a "new scout patrol" just like their sons are doing...He is their "troop guide" for the weekend -a pure stroke of scouting genius (while I can take lots credit for our new scout (only) shakedown program...the "new parent program" was all his (did I mention he was a RGG-really good guy?) In this way they (the parents)learn to appreciate what their boys are learning...and they are kept from meddling and being distractions to their sons! At troop level car camps, we generally have adults numbering between 6 and 12 in addition to being the "transport" for the weekend, they are mostly uniform wearing ASMs and committee members (like me). On our hikes and canoe camps we find the number generally drops as one would predict(but not as precipitously as you might expect). We just came off a three day (spring break) 33 mile hike on the A. T. that terminated at Harpers Ferry...13 -first class and above scouts and 5 adults -all had a great time. Two weeks prior to that we had a 6-7 mile practice hike camping weekend breaking in boots training on water filters and back pack stoves, and 28 scouts with 9 adults took part. Our canoe camps can end up with ratios nearing 1 to 1 on our flat water events (young scouts and fathers mostly) and drop to 3 to 1 or 5 to 1 for our river trips like the annual hundred mile canoe event (never less than three parents ...and four adults is our usual "optimal target" for this week long trip). On this trip, most of the parents are long time ASMs or committee members. At patrol events the younger scout patrols usually have two or three adults while the older patrols frequently get SM approval and arrange transport and "go it alone" or sometimes with two ASMs or an ASM and a willing parent...whatever the patrol and the Sm determine works for them. Managing parents- we have several trained leaders at each activity who have no special duties except transport, adult "patrol" cooking and keeping a fresh pot of coffee going. "Secretly" their job is to "hold" new parent hands and hold back "more experienced" parents when their own "parental mode" kicks into overdrive- after all -it happens to all of us occaisionally. Not having a boy in scouting any longer makes me the usual gatekeeper...and if they get too jumpy I stop their coffee intake. Where our "line" is drawn "tightest" is where an event has a space limit- due to camp ground or district event requirements ...we never bump a scout for an adult. We take only the adults needed for transport in these cases...scouts sign up first and "transporters" are then "allowed" in. Case in point our Assateague Island National Seashore weekend is coming up...An extremely popular event. We have 40 scouts going and 50 group camping spaces available by park regulations...but we have 22 parents and 11 younger sibs wanting to join in the fun. In this case, the parents (beyond the ten needed for transport)and sibs must find their own accomodations...in the family camp areas just down the road. The troop adults will set up a large kitchen and feed all adults and sibs... Our scouts will stick to their surf fishing, head boat fishing, nature hiking, pony watching, hole diggin and crab hunting program...and everyone will have a great big sunny-sandy time. And Long Haul...the number of parents along has little to do with boy led...as long as enough scouters who believe in the program are there to hog tie or coral the newbies back at the adult kitchen...If you travel like we do it gets hard to ask a parent to drive fifty miles to drop a bunch of kids on friday night and then drive home only to do it again Sunday...and by studing your "prey" in the field you can determine which ones are the best "catches"... Anarchist(This message has been edited by anarchist)(This message has been edited by anarchist)

MomToEli, not knowing "where" (physically) you are I can't say for sure, but first check with any National Parks in your area...there is one just down the way from us that has a great compass program that "if the stars are aligned just right" (several times annually)...you can get them to teach compass work for you for a tiny fee...more important they will lend a set of compasses (20) for a day if they are not doing a class and they have several courses from simple to really tough to practice on... If that is not an option, check around for an orienteering club...they are usually a great bunch of folks and many of their members might be willing to help...and last (or first...you choose), BSA has a compass game in the scout stuff inventory that can be used... plastic "map plate" type compasses are what you want...silva makes several in the $10 range that are perfectly fine for beginners...I still have my original scout compass...circa 1963 that works fine...little slower to settle down than fluid damped compasses but it still points north! As mentioned before however,...incorrect information "learned" is terribly hard to "unlearn"...and (no offense meant)...make sure whoever is teaching knows what they are doing...Teaching bad information just because someone wants to teach orienteering or compass "now", is worse than teaching no information...you would be surprised at how many scouts and scouters have poor compass skills because they were "taught" by people who didn't know what they were teaching. Anarchist

Long Haul, I'll take a shot at your example...but it is a double barrled shot...paraphrasing here... First, US code flag protocal states that "persons in uniform will turn to face the flag"...however military units "in formation will remain in formation and salute directly ahead" ..."or as directed"...further,..."scouting type oganizations will salute in the manner dictated by their protocol and program" (go figure!) "in a procession (parade) they will salute when the flag is (approx) six paces away and hold the salute until the flag has passed aproximately six paces". In your "football field" analogy, one could argue that they boys are "in formation" and should/could salute the "unit" across the room (parade field) from them...a perfectly sound position. Personally, I would suggest to my PLs, they call "left or right face" (as appropiate) so the patrols faced the "goal posts" and do the pledge (our troop follows with the promise, law and outdoor code.) hope this makes sense... anarchist

It is easy to understand how Hand axes or hatchets cause more injuries than regular and 3/4 axes...folks tend to use them as axes rather than use them as wedges with a handle...from what I have seen over the last twelve years, most troops rarely teach bladed tool use well...they gloss over most of the instruction to "get the boy his knife carrying privilege"...most troop never even routinely set-up ax yards so the boy can practice the skills...thus they lose the skills. Almost all knife injuries (having staffed first aid tents, a bit) seem to occur while "just whittling or cutting branches" (playing), not while prepareing food...in fact I can not recall a single chuck box/cooking knife injury in twelve years...burns yes cuts no. and trenching tools are great for coal handling, as can be small flat bladed landscaping tools, or you can make a coal tool out of sheet metal and duct tape (cheap and a good "boys project" for the chuck box). Folding pruning saws are great for cutting downed branches and the tops out of "dead falls". Easier for smaller scouts to use than big buck saws (and the blades do not twist and bind when the hands holding them are not as adept as those of bigger scouts). Anarchist

no offense, but you post is rather unclear..but for what it is worth...G2SS says: "Family Camping Family camping: an outdoor camping experience, other than resident camping, that involves Cub Scouting, Boy Scouting, or Venturing program elements in overnight settings with two or more family members, including at least one BSA member of that family. Parents are responsible for the supervision of their children, and Youth Protection guidelines apply. Recreational family camping Recreational family camping: when Scouting families camp as a family unit outside of an organized program. It is a nonstructured camping experience, but is conducted within a Scouting framework on local council-owned or -managed property. Local councils may have family camping grounds available for rental at reasonable rates. Other resources may include equipment, information, and training. Cub Scout Overnight Opportunities Cub Scouts may experience overnight activities in venues other than accredited resident camping. There are two categories of Cub Scout overnighters: Council-Organized Family Camp Council-organized family camps are overnight events involving more than one pack. The local council provides all of the elements of the outdoor experience, such as staffing, food service, housing, and program. These are often referred to as Parent/Pal or Adventure weekends. Council-organized family camps should be conducted by trained leaders at sites approved by the local council. In most cases, the youth member will be under the supervision of a parent or guardian. In all cases, each youth participant is responsible to a specific adult. Overnight activities involving more than one pack must be approved by the council. Council-organized family camps must be conducted in accordance with established standards as given in National Standards for Council-Organized Family Camping, No. 13-408. Pack Overnighters These are pack-organized overnight events involving more than one family from a single pack, focused on age-appropriate Cub Scout activities and conducted at council-approved locations (councils use Pack Overnighter Site Approval Form, No. 13-508). If nonmembers (siblings) participate, the event must be structured accordingly to accommodate them. BSA health and safety and youth protection guidelines apply. In most cases, each youth member will be under the supervision of a parent or guardian. In all cases, each youth participant is responsible to a specific adult. At least one adult on a pack overnighter must have completed Basic Adult Leader Outdoor Orientation (BALOO, No. 34162) to properly understand the importance of program intent, youth protection guidelines, health and safety, site selection, age-appropriate activities, and sufficient adult participation. Permits for campouts shall be issued locally. Packs use Local Tour Permit Application, No. 34426. ....but I do not really understand what the question was... generally speaking "cubs" must have a parent or appointed guardian who is not a pack leader and who agrees to take responciblity for that child...Den leaders do not "care" for other peoples kids they have their sons and the den to watch after...another "civilian" parent may take that position but not pack /den leaders... good luck Anarchist

Merit Badge Days are mostly Garbage...("Was that over the top?...I can never tell") While there are a few of the easy merit badges (thinking leather working or basketry types) that can be done successfully in a large group, most merit badges and almost all Eagle Badges should be as close to one on one as possible. Having sat through several of these abominations I can virtually guarrantee that 30 minutes afterwards most of the finer points of ________(you fill in the merit badge) have been forgotten by the vast majority of the group... It would be like like taking a CPR in a class of 100 with only two "practice dummies" and no time for everyone to experience the rise and fall of the chest or the feel of the effort to make several cycles 15- 1-1/2 or 2 inch chest crompressions (for several minutes at a time) ...most will never zone in on what is being stressed and taught....they just fill seats and get a ticket punched... Heck, I don't even like the fact that some summer camps now have EAGLE sessions...Excepting, perhaps swimming and life saving, Eagle candidates should really "work" on the required badges. They should get a meaningful experience not just sit in a room (Eagle nest?) being lectured too, or reading or playing Video games for several days...(and yes, I have wittnessed these exact things) Unfortunately, our Council and District support these travesties and many boys flock to them, hoping to blow out a few quick and easy badges...merit badge mills...bah humbug Anarchist

Like t'was said it depends... A point not mentioned as yet...in many "developed campsites" (many National Park campgrounds, State or County camps...grey water must be "contained and carried to approved dump stations". Flinging or pouring even strained grey water can get you a hefty ticket in many parks...so be careful and check the "regs" for the area you plan to camp in...better to know before hand and save yourself an expensive lesson. Anarchist

usedtobe... once again you are asking a way too general a question...to expect a decent answer. If you are doing the "boss" thing...or as Lisabob says you are a control freak in your troop and you have strict control of the gear...then some would say the onus is yours... But, as they say... "the proof is in the details"...your question is a situationally obtuse. Where is it stored? Who has access? what has been troop and CO policy in the past? How does your troop control use and care of the gear? Why has the question come up? If you can not share details, you can not expect a coherent answer...unless you just want stuff flung on the walls to see what sticks...even the good doctor House needs symptoms to diagnose a problem. anarchist(This message has been edited by anarchist)

Gosh, what a loaded question? Care to share the particulars? do you mean in general, or replacement of, or obtaining it, or care of...Like many things the answer could be ...depends! anarchist

lots of interesting info... - you really never have to ever run down another troop... After talking with parents for a while the "how are you better than your competitors" question frequently comes up. Competitors? We have no competitors. We have brother troops and we actively encourage the "prospects" to spend a lot of time with other troops. In addition to style, "direction" and troop strengths (weaknesses) there are also personalities to interact with and the "feelings" one gets in these visits. Sit down with your Scout after several visits and activities and figure out where your son will do the best and go for it... We also point out that being one of the "oldest" troops in the area (district) we (our leadership) assisted most of the other troops at their start and stand ready to lend a helping hand to all the troops should it be needed. WE WANT ALL OF OUR NEIGHBOR TROOPS TO GROW STRONG and be successful...This scouting thing is not a competition, it's about offering the BSA program to as many boys as possible and only numerous and varied programs will accomplish the goal. seems to work pretty well... nuff said Anarchist

Gosh, We might be one of those troops Dug loves to hate...but what we carry on campouts really depends on the activity... We have a good size troop trailer that is well organizied and inside we carry lash together flag pole and flags, one adult kitchen (was the old troop kitchen), six (soon to be seven) patrol boxes a large fire equip. box, about thirty timberline tents, ground cloths, the high adventure box, eight lanterns and 'trees', 10/12 D.O.s, seven four foot folding plastic tables and a couple of spare two burner propane stoves (for more elaborate meals),nine dining flys and grey water gerry cans for the patrols. Each assigned patrol kitchen "set up" has a complete cook set, stove, propane hose, griddle and three plastic wash stations (and some "staples")and a few guest plates and cup...all self contained in their kitchen. There is no hunting around. When we hit a car camp location the QM (a scout) isses patrol gear to the Patrol QM and each patrol sets up a separate and distinct camp(as do the adults). Set up usually takes less than 45 minutes and bug out takes 45 minutes to an hour. We then police the area and leave.... When the patrols do independent (single patrol-three per year) camping they arrange with the QM to "check out" what they need and check it back in when the activity is over. The high adventure box has fuel bottles, backpacking stoves, water filters and light weight nylon flys. This equipment is what the boys use on their back packing and most canoe trips...though, we do generally add to the "load" if portaging is not on the trip plan...say a couple of D.O.s for deep fried fish and cobbler. It seems to work pretty well, but then the troop has been working hard on this stuff for many, many years... anarchist(This message has been edited by anarchist)

scout accounts as such are problematic... point of clarification the vast number of troops (if not nearly all) are technically not "non-profit". If allowed to do so by their IRS approved "non-profit" C.O. then they may take on some of the trappings of a Non-profit but it is my understanding that BSA national, Council and Districts are the only generally IRS accepted "non-profit"in the BSA umbrella. (excepting the very few troops that may have incorporated as true 501 © 3's). so tread carefully and check the old threads... anarchist(This message has been edited by anarchist)

momofcolin, Personally, I think your "last troop" had it more right than your new troop. Whether it is $10 or $72 dollars no parent should be put in the position of "bank rolling" the troop or the patrol. We do it by patrols the troop is not involved (except the SPL does approve meal plan). The money does not flow in or out of the troop bank account. If the funds collected are more than the boys need in the end, the extra is split and returned to the "shareholders". The Monday before a camp is called "MONEY MONDAY"...sorta catchy, huh? The patrols finalize menu including general portion amounts and duty rosters. Grubmaster is roatated camp by camp like all duties. For the older patrols a committee of two or three scouts are assigned to help the grubmaster shop. This is not the case for our New Scout Patrols. While a grubmaster is still chosen and holds the money, the whole patrol goes on most of the shopping trips (with exceptions) so they can all learn the job faster. Grubmaster usually splits the shopping list and two NSP teams swarm through the store. Generally our parents are "prepped" to expect a tab of $10 to $15.00 per weekend ( it averages about $11 per boy for most events...though our older patrols sometimes "bust the bank" with steaks and/or other high dollar fair)...We make sure parents are clear on the obligations (boys not mom and dad should be funding most of this type of extravagance). Boys who do not bring money on Money Monday are expected to either make arrangements to get money to the grubmaster or show up at the store with cash in hand, even though they might not be on the shopping committee. If neither task is accomplished (boy is a no show at the store) the grubmaster pares the menu down and the "un-funded boy" is called (usually by cell phone as they leave the store) - and told to bring his own food (same menu items)...if he shows at all. That way no parent is put in the position of chasing a 12 Y. O. for cash if food is bought and the boy doesn't go n the trip. NSPs usually take the most time but with the assistance of their guides by the end of their first year they are "cruzing" right along say... 45 minutes. As to the portions size or amount of food not being enough..."patrol rule" is everyone is served an equal portion before anyone eats...and if someone is "short" it must be the grubmaster and his committee...the results- we see food uneaten... but rarely not enough food. And every patrol has PB&J as a back up at every camp... and about the boys deciding how they want to do it...with all due respect- Uhh uhh, sorry, not with my money..boy led does not mean they have control over our money...if the boys want to collect money at the rally point...or even after the campout- they can use their own money and not mom's and dad's...lets be real here- unless it is their money they are playing with when it is collected is troop committee - policy territory. Anarchist

Yep Eamonn, you failed! I guess he is a pedophillic, monster, mainlining pharmaceuticals, snorting coke, practicing chainsaw murders and heck he probably even wants to be a lawyer for the ACLU! lighten up on yourself, man...for now he is walking a different path...and it may just lead back to your side one day. Keep in mind that sometimes our sons growing up NOT to be their dads is a victory of sorts...a "new book" so to speak, one that you have writ large upon, of course...but one also that is looking for other horizons... short story...old friend from my days in the scouts...left the program as a Star Scout...wasn't much interested in bugs and skeeter bites or fishing or canoeing or hiking but now (many years later) takes his two daughters camping several times a year because "scouting taught him" he could survive outdoors and he gets a charge out of showing the girls "old tricks"...When I was in hospital "and very low" this last year he "confessed" that he had been very jealous of my two sons and me with all of our scouting adventures that he would love to try again...but with daughters would probably not get the opportunity to over indulge... there is hope...it just might need to have time to blossom in other fields first! (I'm just hoping there is life after scouting for us oldsters) gh

Great news! Recently we had a thread that turned into a discussion of using the "buddy system"...those of us who find value in training young scouts to travel (anywhere-anytime) in pairs or groups, just can't help but wonder... If this lucky young man had used "the system", would he and his family been put though this ordeal? Broad day light, base camp, middle of the day and he just wandered away and got "lost". When dealing with young scouts I see lots of merit in the buddy system. This just "ups" its place on my program "value meter". ...just a thought. anarchist

Eamonn writes; "Still when we as an organization shy away from teaching both types how to be real leaders we will have missed out on a lot of what I see us being about." ahh...as they say "theres the rub"... (to continue "cliche-ville") we can lead our horses to water...but we can't make them leaders...er drink... Maybe though, if we can keep them around, dangling their toes in the water, they might pick up some ideas...even if they never quite come around to wanting to be leaders... One of the primary reasons my youngest "retired" from scouting rather than continue in his older brothers foot steps to Eagle was quite simply he did not want to do any more PORs. He did not want to be a leader, he wanted to be an "indian". Seemingly, his excellent scouts skills just kept the SMs and ASMs asking for "more" -and he- being unable to say "no", finally just "got out of Dodge". If a boy will come along, I hardly see the need to say no and if he picks up a little knowledge or leadership here and there great... All of this is quite different from the scout who vanishes for two years and drops back "in" to ask to be given a POR or expects to be elected by boys who have never even seen him...or who expects the SM and CC to drop everything to work on scheduling their lives around his new found desire to get an Eagle ticket punched...or the boy who is a drag on the program, creats hard feelings and problems, doesn't do his share of grunt work...or sits around the crew room complaining rather than watching (at least) and/or making just life tough for the ship/crew...etc. anarchist

"We" started saving for their first car when they were in grade school. Mom and I opened a bank savings account for both boys. We explained that saving for "big toys" was a good idea and they should consider puting a bit of cash from any "wind-fall" they came into...birthdays, Christmas, barn cleaning/painting, odd jobs, etc. Then, We then offered to match any deposit they made so long as the money was not taken out for a 'bad' investment (as so judged by family meeting and vote). Should one of our boys want to blow his cash on a recreational pogie bait splurge and the family vote went against the proposed "investment" -an equal amount was returned to the original owner (me)...so if he/they wanted to "flush" $100 down the tubes it actually cost his account $200...believe me "splurges" just didn't happen...Both built up very nice accounts. When car time came turns out each was "given" an old S-10 type pick up...only two seats...no friends in the back seat acting as a distraction. The "given" part was sort of a surprise. Grandparents had a 130,000 mile beater type truck (well maintained and all major "systems" recently rebuilt) and wanted to give it to "oldest son". (out in the country "real" jobs are hard to get to without wheels). So the bank accounts were turned into college "extras" accounts...seems to be working. Repeat performance was done for younger son recently. Gas and oil-totally theirs...insurance is mine as long as grades stay in the B range and above. Need extra cash...I always have more than enough extra work they can do...or they can ask their part time jobs for more hours...and I have lots of truck space for those trips to the dump and recycling center (or the local lumber store)! Anarchist

Can I jump sorta in the middle of this range???? I think in Boy Scouting (at least) we can do a bit of both...with the other older boys (not adults) doing the planning- and the clubbers going along for the ride...as long as their "mates" don't have a problem with it...You never know when one of the clubbers might just get bitten by the "bug" and start contributing...if they want to coast- that can be ok as long as they do not expect to share in all of the rewards of the hard work (rank and leadership) ( in other words -just don't ask Mr. Anarchist to sit a board for that old "freebie", (feel good), unearned rank). We have several good kids, who really like the outdoors program, don't like to plan (make decisions), don't want to be in PORs, but will participate in the program. We also have a fair number of "A" types who will do the planning and prep work and see to it that the "clubbers" do some grunt work...so why not? Most of the "clubbers" will not get close to Eagle but have fun and some even have great camping skills. They are "buds" to the "A" personalities. Some of these guys are great to have around -they can find "fun" in a rainy day! As long as they do not "poison the soup" or disrupt the program I don't see any harm. In a small ship or crew it could be different as well as difficult but that seems to be a problem with all small organizations. Seems a "critical mass" must be attained in most organizations for good operational health (and sanity). Sometimes a crew or ship might sound like a good idea but unless you have enough bodies to really work on the problems the few who do work hard sooner or later burn out. Getting to that "critical mass" of hard workers appears to be what makes (or breaks) a small organization. as always good luck Eamonn Anarchist

OGE (and for that matter mtm25653), with all due respect...Ford?...Bradley? bet if you really checked you would find they were active (any takers?) IMHO -Bogus arguements on all counts...doubt anyone in this forum thread (at least on the side of "active participation", said anything about 100% participation...Football?...3-4 months ditto almost all other sports...so the boy who are really active in other "things" simply have to "arrange" better than average participation during the other parts of the year...same for band or the latin club! Certainly you (both) are not saying a boy be given (say) a first class rank that requires being active and making limited campouts and other activities simply because he is on the troop rolls but big into football, then basketball, then wrestling or track and then comes to you and says "gosh...Mr. OGE I just can't seem to be here when you guys meet, but please make me a first class scout...cause I paid my membership". Or a "star" candidate who just didn't find time to be active with the troop for those four needed months because he has been studying late at night and playing the nose harp? ...really? And mtm...Our troop has had high ranking state championship level wrestlers, football players, cross crounty runners and track and field guys, also band and orchestra stars...several boys doing I.B.(International Baccalaureate) or Chambridge program high school graduates(approved and internationally sanctioned)two who have gone on to our national Military Academies and many many farm boys who help with the family farming business- all who seemed to be able to get to a fair number of meetings and outings...so forgive me if I have to say please stop blowing smoke... Sometimes a boy does have to make choices...sometimes he has to make very good use of his time. And yes sometimes if he wants to reach the highest level of scouting he has to make a few sacrifices... Perhaps you would care (if you can)to explain why scouting should be so different than the football team (except of course almost all scouting units are 1,000,000,000% more understanding than sports coaches)? Is there any coach out there that would play a boy who missed 50-60% of the practices and games? Would he be selected for the allstar team? Anarchist

Gonzo1 Parents can sure be a pain sometimes...(all of us)! Early in our "experience" with the troop (ages ago) one of my sons was planning Chicken parmesan and a mom overruled real chicken and "made" the young scout buy precooked chicken patties- cause she was sure they would under cook the chicken and didn't want her son getting sick...my young "budding chef" was livid...and soon after the SPL sent out a memo email to all parents...no changing menus...and a scout leader was assigned to shadow that mom on future trips... Experience has taught us that Mommys and and Daddys don't help with the shopping for our new scouts...they are corralled at the store front doors and herded away from the boys... In the interest of educating the new scouts to "patrol shopping"-the new scout patrols are assisted in their shopping by their troop guides ( we try to have at least two guides per NSP so if one guide has a commitment, the second can usually "cover" the NSP patrol) and the NSP Assistant Scout Master...Also, for at least their first three campouts we try to get the WHOLE patrol on each shopping trip- so they can all learn by doing. The NSP Grub Master has the patrol cash and the shopping list and is "in charge" of getting his Mom or Dad to bring the food transport and coolers -but but the boys do the shopping. All purchases are according to the list and menu the patrol worked up and the SPL approved. After a few campouts we "allow" the "grubmaster committee" to drop down to three boys per shopping trip (if they want)... though, in most cases the scouts start actually having fun on these in-store "events" and most boys continue to attend "shopping night" even if they don't have to. YES, for the first few campouts-the shopping takes way too long ( and drives most moms -yes moms- nutz...note here: dads generally can be distracted more easily with a cup of joe...and thusly, are more easily kept out of the way ;>) ...With time and experience, eventually they (the boys and the moms) do learn to do it correctly and after a year or so they can buzz through the store in about a half an hour. REMEMBER- "IF BOY CAN DO IT PARENT DON"T!" now where did I put that pot roast.... Anarchist

A slippery slope...humm, think there is a pank in there somewhere? Folks...pranks, jokes, humor, they are not meant to "toughen" up kids...though heaven knows some of them need that...or "hammer" on them...though some need that also! I think a good prank helps a kid...like the scout in the snipe hunt...learn to laugh at himself...if you take this stuff too seriously...life becomes a real drag...and if we can't see the benefit of laughing at ourselves from time to time...of being "had" in good fun...it's time to stop beating this dead horse...and go back to making and eating mud pies...and crying ourselves to sleep. Lifes way too short. Anarchist

Much of it is in how you look at things...cost of uniforms is more "swallowable" now that it is a better product (switchback pants)...though there is still lots of room for improvement. Current scout shop prices are about what good mid-line (say, columbia) outdoor wear will cost for similar items...so you are paying IMHO a little more for a little less. (but getting better than we did in the past). But let's look at it in a couple of ways...sometimes just talking it through makes it more easy to swallow... What are we looking at ?- $88-95.00 for pant/shirt/basic patches? In context of a boys uniform...Thats about what most team sports uniforms cost (my son's travel soccer team hit us for about $250.00 every two years and don't even start me on what we were charged for high school wrestling uniforms). So lets say, $95 devided by $3.00 per hour-(easily what a young boy can charge and get, for chores)... rounding, about 32 hours...that's three/four weekends of shoveling snow for neighbors, cutting lawns, clearing fence lines, painting fences, (or barns). A Fifty gallon trash can of flattened soda cans "grosses" (not nets) about $10.00 at the recycle 'stores'...collecting from the local high school lunch room or local plant/mill/mine/auto shop will take about 10-20 weeks depending -Much less for large "sites" or businesses. Then there are paper drives, part time jobs, summer jobs, allowances, and a host of local fund raisers/sales/flea markets that a kid can work at to make his money...'course the kid's gotta want to put in some effort rather than put out his hand.... If we are talking about Adults - well, most of us can scrape up a bit of money if we really, really want a new uniform...give up a few lunches, six packs of barley pop, or sodas, or cigs or movies, or a new fishing rod or weekend of hunting...give going to a few sporting events ...just make a list of vices and give up a few...sacrifice! Or if you're like me, I have three uniforms- ("1 dress" w/switch backs and/or old style pant, one winter -old long-sleeve nice thick cotton shirt and a summer -short sleeve polyblend shirt (melts on contact with embers)only New Item was the switchbacks...and that just cause I wanted to see if they were as good as my Columbia fishing/canoeing zip offs (those cost $39.98)...(new scout pant still not as good). The rest were yard sale and ebay found...very few bucks say five bucks a piece... some less. And one shirt still had tags on it from the scout shop! It's all in how you 'rationalize' your life/activities I guess... And frankly, there is help, or can also be help from 'friends'...I have sent out several requests (very well answered requests) in our community for old uniforms to help "units in need" and I think it's upwards of 25 full uniforms sent in bits and pieces to several diffent locations (my good deed for the day?), So I am sure if you had the need and asked -there are scouters out there who could help... I might even scrounge something ...though this neighborhood is getting "thin" on extra uniforms... Anarchist

BrentyAllen, Gosh, our scouts could NEVER belong to your troop...you forgot the warm milk and the mint on his pillow when he turns in...I'm calling the prank police, RIGHT NOW! Scoutldr, yep he had a classic case...and everyone knew it...His son was our SPL at the time...and He, the dad, was the best Cub Scout Den Leader I have ever met...bar none...he just had a gift of "making cub into scouts"...including, at last count, about...8 eagles (including my eldest). He eventually lost some weight, found a different line of work and is much better in the apnea department...but he left scouting... ...without our prime "snorer"...now I am always worried about bears and lions and school teachers...oh my! In the end...you manage your risk and we manage ours...and ideas asked for do not have to be taken...just grist for the "mental mill". Anarchist

lights sounds good ...but some hikes and (in the older days)on some river trips...no 'trines! Just a hand trowel and miles and miles of national forest (etc). Spent a late,late night and several early morning hours my first really big hike in scouting (years and years ago)... Combing the shore of a large southern lake looking for a little girl who wandered away from her parent's tent at the park campground. She "left" in the middle of the night... and even as a young scout it impressed me how easy it was for a kid to get turned around... and after she was found how far a young kid can walk in a few hours...in the dark. More recently at a district camporee I had a young scout start unzipping my tent vestibule at 'bout 2 in the AM...He thought it was his tent...and he wasn't even in our troop... The Latrine even had a yard light...though it was about 300 yards from our troop's camp site...boy was simply half awake and "turned around". His troop was camped within 300 feet of the facility's heads... "buddy's" just make more sense to me. Anarchist

Come on OGE, You "know" me better than that...sensitive, never! Its purely practical...too much paperwork if you lose one of the little buggers...though can be quite a prank...(touche'?) ;>) Anarchist