anarchist

fund raising.... dinners- spaghetti, BBQ chicken/ribs, brunswick stew... Food services at local fairs/concerts...hot dogs and burgers/popcorn breakfasts- pancakes usually Mulch sales in early spring...big hit in our neck of the woods but must be early spring...just before folks start getting the "bug" to plant...we do presales and are looking at a presale-site sale (haul in a tractor trailer to a local lot and sell off the truck for a couple of days... parking services at local events... service to other organizations...we started putting up flags serveral times a year on our towns Main Street to help a service organization who's membership is either too old or too busy and started getting a $400 contribution from them...for a few Saturday mornings and Sunday/Monday evenings...I am sure there are others out there. Yard sales...easiest way is to "procure" a lot and sell "table spaces"...to john Q public...you do the advertizing and have to clean up the juck left behind but its not a bad way to do things. sell fire wood...buy in bulk and "crack" it yourselves...deliver cords half cords and quarter cords...work is hard but scouts seem to love it... course there are a few scouts I'd like to sell but doubt if I'd get any takers... anarchist

Sir_Scoutalot, Our guys have done the keys and the out island adventure (for years). We have been lucky enough to have had had at least one crew at seabase for 10 of the last twelve years. I have yet to see a boy come back with anything less than a big smaile and great memories...most of our older boys have done Sea Base two or three times and are evenly split as to which they like best... both my pirates liked living on Munson Island best (my youngest came back so wired one year it took weeks for him to "come down"...drove mom nutz) but that said, many of our guys (and most adult leaders I have to admit) seem to like the keys "trip"...get to shower more frequently. I have been surprised that no one in the troop has shown interest in the sailing program or the scuba program as we have a few adult divers and our own troop sailboat...but what do I know... In any case, you will find all your guys will have a great time... anarchist

I'll play Meetings- Uniform shirt (am partial to long sleeves), usual troop patches, three knots, CM patch...bolo (which is considered troop Adult neckwear, and for that matter our eagles wear eagle bolo)old BSA uniform pants- (before the patch pockets), leather BSA belt with BSA logo embossed buckle, BSA socks and brown mocks (can't seem to find Buster Browns anywhere!) Outdoors Uniform (same field shirt as above- have three)Switchbacks (which still need some design finessing)or if the going is to be 'tough' Olive rip-stop BDU pants...my alternate class "B" is the activity shirt (one of which I keep folded in the console of my truck). Except for canoe trips I am rarely out of the field uniform...As lead "adult patrol" cook I even handle kitchen duties in uniform (have nice forest green BBQ apron)...example! example! example! (and never let them see you sweat!) In really warm weather I switch to BSA shorts with BSA knee-high socks and approriate foot wear...rarely wear tee or short sleeve uniform shirt...I like to be able to roll down the sleeves if I am out too long in the sun or the flys start "feasting"...hard to do with a TEE.... Troop does have custom olive drab "Troop Tees" that are pretty sharp...I have one...almost brand new after five years +. Troop policy is to always travel to and from events in full field uniform minus the "hardwear" and sashes). anarchist

kenk... troop guides...topic near and dear to my heart...personally think it is the most important position in the troop... TG's are not members of the NSP they are mentors/teachers and examples for the newbies. TG's help deliver the program to the NSP. If they are not fit for the job NSP retention suffers and eventually so does the Troop. generally, in our troop, they remain in their own patrols but for one year they are "on detail" and are members of the youth leadership cadre (green bars) and the PLC. If their patrol has an activity that does not conflict with their duties they are free to participate. In our troop we use at least two guides for each NSP. This gives our guides the freedom (with proper coordination and communication of course)to "miss" some events and still not leave the NSP "in the lurch". Taking some of the pressure off leads to less "guide failure" and more souting success! TG eats with his/their NSP...one of their jobs is to teach outdoor cooking...works much better if the guides have to eat the "failures" along with the NSP...means fewer "meal failures". TGs either buddie-up with other TG's or the ASPL who on occaision in our troop "acts" as a Troop Guide (as these scouts are under his supervision). Also when we camp as a troop, the SPL and the guides generally "flank" the NSP with a guide tent on one side and the SPL on the other...(noise and accident control). Our SPL generally is given the option of a solo bunk...his choise. anarchist

elizdaddio, If you want to, we can talk "coup d'etat", but we need more info on your troop...numbers. patrols, age ranges...and more importantly the thinking behind such a lack luster, dying program? What do the old guys say in defense of doing nothing? Why do they turn down your efforts to do more? It's information needed to brain storm.... But basically the best way to work this might be in short; first you get your SM leader specific training and continue to suppliment with CPR, Safety afloat, safe swim etc...become a strong ASM- not committee member. That is, If you have the gumption and the will to stick it out for the long haul .... Then you simply embrace the patrol system...talk to the CO/COR and let them know that you want more for your son and that YOU are willing to do the heavy lifting. Tell them that you respect the "old stick in the muds" but your boys want even more...who can resist that? Let him (COR) know that you are going to work within the troop system but your patrol will suppliment its activities. If this goes over ok...then let the Scoutmaster know that your sons patrol wants to do more on it's own no skin off his nose.... (your DE or Unit commissioner can help here if needed...visit a few roundtables get their insight on your troop's situation...you might get some idea as to why the troop is so weak). And then work to get your son's patrol really active...you do not need a troop for campouts...do your own as a patrol...make them fun and scout skill effective. Go on patrol hikes, patrol raft trips, patrol canoe trips, patrol fishing trips, support your district camporees (if they are good) by getting the patrol to represent the troop...and be sure to invite other patrols to come along... BTW with the COR on your side (and how could they not want you to help your son and his buddies and how can you possibly be a threat to the old guys?)The SM should not then be in a position to say "no" to anything that does not conflict with his anemic program...In any case he has no right to say that like minded families can not take their children camping. As you do these things have the patrol give reports during troop meeting complete with pictures (I LOVE DIGITAL cameras) to the boys "left" behind...you may be surprised to see more folks tagging along on your activities to see what the fuss is...and before long, if done quietly, helpfully and insidiously the old guy just leaves and the troop has a new lease on life. I have been down this road -it can be very effective...but you have to be willing to stay to the finish...you will need the help of a few other patrol families and you can't leave the other families in the middle of the river when you get tired. Building or rebuilding a quality program is hard work. Doing it from inside is almost as hard as starting a new troop maybe harder, sometimes. The big difference from starting a new troop is you start with warm bodies and a structure and perhaps some equipment...no recruiting 'fight' and no splitting up of friends...but it has to be done with finnesse. let us hear how you do... anarchist

gosh, sorta sounds like the sorority that kicked out the plain janes and the "fat girls"... Perhaps, it would work in a perfect world...but in the one I live in -I'll take what I can get...an use the heck out of them! We have a very fit leader, the SM...(and many very fit ASMs) but he hates Hiking...we also have several others willing to "step in" (sorry) on hiking events...One of these hikers looks to be fifty pounds overweight, has sleep apnea issues and can walk the legs off a mountain goat...Should we deep six him? Personally, I think he is a jewel (in the rough). We also have an ASM who looks like a wiskey barrel and he is our caving guru...he takes our older boys on some outrageous adventures...again, cause his tummy isn't flat he is a bad example? We have a treasurer who is also on the rotund side but he supports our truck camps and has supported a Seabase effort. Myself...lost a lunge to cancer a while back and recently had a few heart issues (some solved with a fancy pacing system-some not), so keeping up with hikes is tough but also interestingly, I can still out "canoe" everyone in the troop - solo even, don't know why- but it just is... Before we do the hypothetical (or hippocritical-sorry again)"fitness" B.S., we should also consider the potential value in demonstrating our ablity as units towards diverse utilization of all of our assets. Which "system" better shows value of all human beings... Also I wonder which system is more inviting and supporting of the slightly overweight kid that would see either all "terminator" bodies and thusly feels "ugly" or sees that there is, infact, hope that he too can participate in our game with a purpose? And maybe do betterfor himself than becoming a shut-in, couch potato. Got kind of uncharacteristically mushy there...sorry, don't want to ruin my reputation... Anarchist

CNYScouter, in the distant past...when we did have the problem...once and it caused a cancellation of a major trip..."we go as a unit or we don't go at all!" Then our Scoutmaster at the time simple sent out word that since we did not have enough volunteer drivers...in the future every Scout parent was to show up with their scout "expecting to transport their own son to the activity"....many, many parents put their collective heads together and "tah-dah!" suddenly we had enough drivers...has not been a problem since..."no volunteers = everyone drives = enough volunteers" funny isn't it? you know, if we didn't have to deal with parents who believe BSA means Baby Sitters of America this would be a much "funner" game! anarchist

CNYScouter, How hard are your guys willing to work and what will they put up with? Just a thought here, but it might work...I am unaware of any east coast scouting summercamp surf program...course IMHO I am unaware of any real "surf" on the east coast (joking guys) small waves, yes, but it is not like the "real thing"... That said, one of the hot spots for east coast surfing is the Outer Banks of North Carolina...Hatteras Island to be exact...It would not be difficult to put together a week long camping trip (there is National Park camp at Cape Hatteras as well as Frisco (ten minutes further down the coast)...Course, like any ship/troop camping you would have to do your own cooking and provisioning(or hit the local restaurants = $$$) but it would be do-able. Then you could engage one (or more) of the the local outfitters and set up surf lessons, kite boarding lessons(which is IMHO -way cooler), wind-surfing, surf fishing, kayaking and even take a day to go deep sea fishing (expensive if money is tight)or pier fishing (three piers 'close by')...This kind of trip would be limited only by your guy's energy and cash (and it will not be "scout summercamp" cheap)...but it can be done if you are willing to design the trip and do the phone work...good luck, be interested in hearing if you pull it off. Anarchist

are you looking for troop size or crew size adventure? A lot of the (most?) high adventure trips are limited by the outfitter or by park rules to 8-10-12 persons per crew (impact and quality of adventure issues). For troop size I can highly recommend "scoutingagain's" recommendation- -Blue Ridge has an outstanding set of program offerings... members of you troop can chose from several different high adventure programs. For crew size, there are many choices-Sea Base; Northern tier- boundary waters trips; up state New York has outfitters and lake adventures galore; of course, Philmont is always a lifetime adventure. Several Canadian offers from lake to river expeditions...so much to do...so little time... go for the challenge! anarchist

ustbeeowl, easiest way is to have each set of scouts (2) chip in 2 bucks a each and buy two sets (of four) 15 inch galanized tent stakes at Wal-mart ($1.97 for set of four). On a typical "A" frame (timberline type) one per corner and two on each side of the fly will hold the tent down in 40 plus MPH sustained winds (been there and done that at Assateague). Our troop has done this camp for the last 9 years and we factor the stakes into the camp fee each year. We now have about 160 stakes in two large buckets that are only used for beach and "mud-o-rees". We replace the ones that get bent beyond repair each year. You will need a few hammers with pin puller loops at the handle for easy removal when you break camp. The "scout is thrifty" way is to get 16 - 1 X 4 boards (per tent), 6 or 7 inches long and bore a hole through center of allboards...dig 8 holes at "stake locations". Take "paired" boards(two boards = one tent stake) and lay one board over the other board, run you lines through the holes, open the board sets to make crosses...bury the crosses and eight sets will hold in 60 + MPH winds...'course many tents will blow apart at 50 MPH...(BTW- cheap domes get eaten by the winds at Assateague. OGEs way is problematic in that the boys will be temped to simply tug the lines loose leaving the polluting plastic bags in the sand and the next Nor'easter blows them up and "around" to become turtle food...I am not a big fan of plastic bags...at least the ones sea life mistake for jelly fish and try to consume...If you have real polypro sand bags or cloth bags ...then have at "it", but please, leave the cheap plastic in the recycle bins at home. If you are camping at the National Seashore group camp sites(which are in Maryland) or the Assateague Island State Park (also in Maryland) you will also need some funnels and grey water containers as you can not dump your grey water in the sand. The mentioned strategy for ponies is important! If you leave food easily accessible the Park can (and will) "write you up" for feeding the wildlife so pack every food item in strong snap or latch lid plastic box or cooler and bungie them to help thwart the very determined ponies. To the best of my knowledge there are no public camp sites in the Virginia side of the park just private commercial campgrounds next to the park. I hope you are in the National Seashore or State Park as they are so much better that the commercial experience...good luck! Anarchist

MattR, Son, If you can't take the joke don't tip over the cow... There is not a unit or district fund raiser out there that can not be turned on its head with your "scouts should give it away arguement" These gals have found a need and are filling it... ...and what about the poor child that can't afford it???(someone said)- good gosh folks, there are scouts that can't afford the uniform...no one makes them buy one and no one makes them pay for lessons ..if their units can't teach skills...they need to find another way! Question does your unit give away free popcorn if some kids says he doesn't have the money? (rhetorical) The question here should be why not meet a need? If I understand correctly, these girls are offering "extra curicular" sessions to other units... not charging their own folks for the training...so what is the difference from merit badge day? or summercamp? (and the term of "service" or employment simply won't wash...if one scout should give it away all scouts should give it away...using scouts to teach at summer camp is economics 101- cheap labor.nothing more) Scoutldr, ya missed the boat (more like the whole lake) with the scout/counselor/summercamp argument...In your "example", the scouts councilors would be the equivalent girl scouts in MattR's example(the labor)and the council would be equivalent to the girl scout unit (symantically speaking that is). The boy scouts and girls are not the ones "gaining" the most benefit from the "labor" clearly the units are (that is to say Council and troop make the "profit"). That said, I would like to point out that you seem to think that the camp counselors who pocket money are "more noble" than the girls who give their services to their unit...which ones are really the more "scout like"?...logically and ethically speaking "1" must equal "1" and the girls actually seem to score higher on the service check list than the counselors do, unless you do have a better argument. cheerful service? I am sure they (girls) do their fair share of service...but perhaps your argument is that we should all just go out and have our units buy popcorn and give it away free as a cheerful service, and then wash cars for free and serve free pancake or free pasta or deliver free mulch...service with a smile! ...but I will bet you ARE (seriously) worth every bit of $60.00 per hour (only one hour per week remember)...but if your boys are giving the popcorn away as a part of their "volunteerism"...you'll have to accept IOUs ;>) anarchist

Gosh, i Like being on the outside... MattR (and most posters on this thread) you are simply wrong and forgive me for saying it way out of line...the powers that be in you council seem to have no problem with the situation so whats your problem? And for that matter what business is it of yours what another unit is doing as long as council has no beef with it? Just where in any scouting literature GS or BSA have they crossed any lines? Did someone die and make you girl scouting ethics czar or did youi just inherit to much of the stick you nosey where it don't belong gene? (was that over the top?) If you see something wrong with Scouts using their skills and expertise to teach others (scouts included) the skills and expertise they (others)would like to have and making money for their units in the process...then I guess you need to fire all of your camp directors and close down summercamp and almost all other district and council events cause you are being SOOOO hypocritical. And the term of employment Weekend or summer which has been brought up is totally irrelevant...If they provide a service someone wants or needs and is/are willing to pay for it...whether it is council sponsored or troop sponsored it is still the same...ethically speaking. Sometimes (IMHO)we get a little too condescending in these forums...and this seems like one of those times. Frankly, it sounds great to me... The comment on scouts being helpful is a bull hocky...Scouts are helpful in hundreds of ways...and even helpful while they do fund raising -councils like to see value for effort or product...Certainly education and skill transfer is helpful...valuable, benefical and maybe even profitable... I also think each one of you (at least the "gainfully employed") are helpful to your employers but get paid for the effort...Sounds to me like these young ladies have discovered a need and a way to help both their units and scouts from other units.... Just because some folks here would not pay for the "service of skills transfer", I can think of many situations (young troops with newbie leaders, outdoors skill challenged leaders, even outdoor challenged parents who have kids needing "tutors"...Lighten up for petes sake. Yall sound like a bunch of pinko socialist, latte drinking, reformed 12 steppers... I think we ought to give the girls a BSA Entrepreneur merit badge anyway...and give switches and coal to the "boo bears"... 'think I'll lay off the coffee for the rest of the day ...my "throttle the busy-bodies" gene has me all twitchie... Anarchist

resqman, Where to start?...First this is a perfect time to get the scouts to take ownership of the problem and I totally disagree with the implication that an adult needs to put things straight and THEN turn it over to the scout...(pure bull bisquets and cow dribble!) Let them do the work and search for answers while you make guiding (quiet) comments and suggestions. Remember if the boys can do it ADULTS DON'T!. If you do it they do not have to learn a thing! Mentor coach teach...but make them "DO". As to colored tape on cooking tools...I ask you to consider sanitation at this piont -any tape on the utinsels is a place to harbor "nasties"...a simple vibrating engraver ($12-$15.00)will do a fine job...and most serving pieces and pancake flippers are "expendables" ($1.00 a piece) worry about the pots they are the expensive hard to replace pieces... In our troop, we do not even consider the implements (large spoons, spatulas, kitchen knives etc) as troop equipment...The troop supplies pot and griddles stove lanterns tarps and chuck boxes but each patrol (as NSPs) purchases a bunch of "dollar store/thrift shop" kitchen utensils to use and lose...as part of their first campout supply shopping trip. Start hangng out in thrift stores, yard sales and ebay ( or give your wife a shopping list if she is the "junker" in your family-my wife loves flea markets and has brought me so much gear for $1 and $2.00 that I have supplied most of the adults in our troop over the last 9 or 10 years)I have two complete patrol cook kits(for my personal camp kitchen) picked up a couple of pieces at a time at yard sales and flea markets... But once more with feeling...Don't you do it...Let them find "the joy in doing it for themselves"...They might even take better care of the equipment once they realize what has happened. Anarchist

Man o man, troop funding airfare???...don't think that would fly...In our troop... it would not even get to committee as our eagle coordinator would have snuffed it as soon as it was out of someones mouth...If by some insane chance it did get to committee, then I would snuff it out! Troops should not be funding a single penny of a lads Eagle project and that includes airfare or carfare...all parts of the projects costs should be part of the Eagle's plan...and that should include not asking for troop funds for "shipping labor" to the site...or whatever (was that over the top?). If the troop can afford a few thousand for johnnies Airfare it darn well ought to be ready to fund a few thousand for the next eagles tree planting...or bridge building or trail building...and I guess that mean the troop better be a 24 hour fund raising bunch of fools cause if they start it- they better be prepared to keep it up... I tend to agree with some here that "out of country projects" are "iffy" in my provential view of things... 'Course I could think of hundreds of great project in poor areas of the world...but no troop could finacially support them all. But if you support one.... anarchist

Feeling guilty? Molested kids parents should have reported the "suspected" molester to the police immediately...and if they have not should do so now! Unfortunately, predators are opportunistic and are rarely caught their first or second or even third time...By the time they finally get "turned in", most have been praying on others for long periods of time. Wanna bet that this situation "could have been stopped" if someone would have spoken up earlier. While following the BSA guidelines is adequate...for our organization...I wonder if we would have the same "group feeling" if Eamonn had "simply" ejected a knife welding murderer from the ship? Not to rain on you Eamonn, but sexual predators do tremendous damage...damage that follows the victims, in many cases, for the rest of their lives. Hopefully, it is now in the hands of professionals. If the predator 'acted out' in school/or on a school sponsored activity, I believe Eamonns State has laws that require immediate reporting by educational professionals...of any suspected case of child abuse (which this certainly is). I hope it has been looked at hard! Sometimes just following the rules is not enough. Anarchist P.S. almost all states that require reporting of molestation and abuse have shield laws as long as the reporter is acting in "good faith"(This message has been edited by anarchist)

resqman, easiest step...combine what you have then check with the scout shops for "open items pieces" to finish your sets...then buy 4 new ones... or hit the thrift shops and yard sales, and Ebay for partial sets or even just regular pots and pans to give the boys.... In many cases you can make do....without "matching". now for the soap box... Where the heck is the troop quartermaster? He should have a written troop equipment inventory, (as well as be doing the inventory you just "did")....And he should have inventory control system in place; check-out/check-in forms, user lists, condition reports, repair reports...That's what the patch on his left arm means. He should be doing periodic chuck box inspections- if something goes missing- he should be having the patrols replace it by the next campout or the end of the year at the latest (they (the scouts)are responcible for what they have lost...not the troop)...Adult equipment guys should mentor and guide the Scout QM -not do the work for him...or the troop. In any event ...AFTER you have determined your course of action, all kits should be engraved (i.e., troop XXX kit 1,; kit 2,; kit 3,; Kit 4,; kit 5,; kit 6. That way "moms and dads" finding pots brought home, cause the lazy lads didn't want to get their hands dirty washing pots, know where it came from... and so your patrols don't mix and match. Try not to use (engrave) patrol names on the pots...like "eagles" and "foxes" and "cobras"...patrol names sometimes do change...But if you simply number the chuck box (which can also have a patrol name painted on it) and "box 1" gets "cook set #1"...Then when the fry pan #6 (for "kitchen 6") ends up in "kitchen 2" you can inquire as to who picked up a wayward pan...and why. BUT THIS IS SCOUTS WORK...you advise and assist and think...they should be doing "IT". Adult equipment guy...not QM Anarchist

heck, after the election six years ago we just closed all of our scout accounts and troop accounts and invested in Exxon, B-P, Duke energy and Haliburton...the returns are great...ain't America grand! anarchist....

Mr. Dewitt, ditto on getting as well as you can... I won't tell you things will be ok or any of that other drivel 'cause I am not your doctor (nor do I play one on TV). Not knowing the type or stage of your cancer nor the damage done by your cardiac event means everything I could say would be feel good platitudes... I will say, from personal experience, that your having positive attitude and real determination to fight for every day you have left on this earth can make a tremendous difference in the quality of the "rest of your life". I did it backwards and in slow motion from your "event". Almost twenty years ago Cancer "took" my left lung, when I was only 38...and while my two lads were toddlers...I had the Docs throw everthing including the kitchen sink at my chest to evict any remaining cancer...I survived but it really changed my life. Then last year, my heart "went on vacation" (without notifying me, of course)...seems it might have been at least partially caused by damage don fighting the cancer. Won't say my pacemaker and meds made me a new man, infact, has taken more than a little of the "spring" out of my step. But I help our troop as I can...This week I am chief cook for the Adult kitchen on the Beach camp we do...In a couple of weeks I will be giving flat water canoe lessons to new scouts and their parents. (many of the other adults treat me like I am fragile...try to carry things for me...offer to wash my dishes...At least until I threaten to die on them if they don't back off...(I do, though, let them do most of the heavy lifting). Seriously, As Windnut and SSScout have said -there are a host of things you can do to help take the load off of the SM or troop chairman without putting your health at significant risk...as you mend and with your Docs agreement simply "line up" your skills, talents and interests and talk to other troop scouters about how you would like to help. Your son is another matter, not knowing him or his age- many things can be at play including a fear that the scouting thing will over tax you, resulting in harm...or worse. Please talk with him about your feelings on the matter and why you think it is important that he give scouting another try...Also remind him that many dads do not have the ability to do the "scouter thing" and you have been very lucky to have been fully involved up to this point. Let him know that you want to get involved again as your health will allow. But most of all be sure to get it across to him that you do not want to be "the reason" he misses out on his scouting experience. That your thinking he has given up scouting because of your "condition" makes you sad. And you would love be able to get another "taste" of our game with a purpose...even if it is only by listening to him recount the fun he had on the next campout or next hike or his trip to summer camp. All the while, carefully being sure not to lay a guilt trip on him but offering him a real chance and opportunity to make your life brighter by sharing his scouting adventures with you. Thoughts and prayers from another traveler Anarchist

Way to go, Eagle90...! to gonzo...at what cost to your program should you go to retain this scout? I've been wondering whats next...So there it is... Let's "dumb-down" the outdoor program because we have parents afraid of "dirt" or snakes or rain...whatever,(you pick). This is scouting...offer the program and move on...I still remember the cringe on our SM's face several years ago when I was describing an upcoming shakedown camp for NSPs and a "princess mom" pointed out..."don't you know there are copperheads there?!?"...slight pause...I replied (looking dead at her) "Yep, and in the last seven years we haven't lost a snake yet".... Talk to the dad, talk to the mom, make it very clear that this is Boy Scouting and advancement requires outdoor participation. Have the boy's friends (if he has any...moms like this can do a number on friendships). work on him to go on camps so he will work on mom. Let them know that you (and scouting) do a lot to safeguard "Jr.". If you can't win it, you move on- but don't sell everyother boy in the troop efforts short...they do "it", and so should every other hale and hearty boy...or are we going to declare "overly protected" the next "handicap"? We had a scout in my older son's patrol a few years ago who was lagging behind in outdoor participation and advancement...hit 14, then 15 without ever doing any of our high adventure stuff- Car camping (with dad in tow) was ok but no long hikes, no caving, no sea base and the real kicker no 100 miler canoe trip (the sorta "coming of age-mile-stone" in our troop). This boy was big, tall and hefty, a strong swimmer and it was always a wonder why he was light on the outdoor program. It seemed there were frequent "conflicting" family obligations) Turned out that mom was afraid her baby would get hurt. Finally his "buds" put enough presure on him to try a couple of overnight canoe trips...BTW-His dad did have to make time to go along...(heavy man out of shape...the effort darn near killed him on on a portaging trip). But the boy seemed to have a great time...Then in his "16th year" his buds really went to work on him to sign up for the hundred miler...It was nip and tuck for a while but finally he "gave in" and signed up. Turns out, I found out while we were on the river, that the trip really "cost" the boy a lot. He was quite a good musician and dear ol' mom had offered to buy him the "guitar of his dreams" - BUT ONLY IF HE DID NOT GO ON THE WEEK LONG RIVER TRIP! I am happy to say his friends won out...he went; he had a great time and made several more of the trips, started advancing and "Eagled" out the month before his 18th...At his Eagle board he credited his "buds" with getting him to challenge himself and cut the cords... I am firmly with Eagle90-Do not dumb down your outdoor program. Sometimes we lose sight of the fact (trying to keep those numbers up?) that while Scouting is for every boy...sometimes every boy isn't for scouting. If dad wants to pull "jr" because you won't "give" him advancement...it should not be your worry...caving and letting the rest of your troop see that not everyone has to pull the same duty to advance should be. Anarchist(This message has been edited by anarchist)

like beating a dead horse.... can't add to the requirements...can't reduce the requirements (except for exceptions).... Lets face it...If he pays BSA his registration and has a pulse...he gets his Eagle...its as simple as that...EVEN if his project was not approved, EVEN if it was done before it was submitted, EVEN if his write-ups were 6th grade quality on torn "spiral" paper in pencil...as long as his parents raise a howl and go to council or national...HE GETS TO BE AN EAGLE...(not hyperbole - really happened folks). The only real world route you can take to avoid the resume "fillers" ...is to withdraw the troop from the "deadwood"...a harsh and problematic solution. But one we have found workable. After several counciling sessions if a scout can not maintain a "reasonable activity level" (a term whose definition you have to decide upon), - he is simply not rechartered...He can give us his check -but it gets sent back...this is the desire of both the Troop committee and our CO (which sees "active" scouting as part of it's mission- perhaps a "lesson" from LDS troops?) In otherwords if you want to be with our program you must be here...if you want to "come back" just to get an Eagle; "there is a troop just up the road..." As I said, harsh but effective and thanks to the wording of the charter agreement perfectly leagal as well as ethical as long as it is the desire of the CO. (let the howling begin) Anarchist

Our guys are taking a fishing weekend river trip the first weekend in June ...they have just decided that Saturday night the main course is game hens. They have also figured that if they clean and cut the birds in half they can reduce the storage (# of coolers) space needed...thought that was pretty sharp...noe they are deciding to "spit 'em or grill 'em"...I refused to take 8 or nine D.O.s down-river..They will take one (D.O.) for cobbler and fully expect to have a fish fry! By the way...don't forget your favorite gorp type mix! I find that having a few "zip-locks filled with dryed fruit, nuts and m&ms, stashed in my gear really helps when you feel your energy slipping... it can also lift the spirits of a "flagging" young scout! another hint-always carry stove(s) and fuel, even if you plan to use wood or charcoal...wind, weather and rules can change...t'was on the river one year and that Friday night after we set camp we got word the the Governor of Virginia had banned all fires...had we planned on a fire cooking pit alone we would have had to call off the trip...or seriously delayed it-but the backpacking stoves were in the buckets... Love them river trips! Anarchist

As they say "In God we trust, all others pay cash!". As many here have said in other terms ..."been there, done that, and bought the tee shirt!" We no longer front money even for grub... For Activities and Events, first we have sign up, then "Money Monday" depending on when the "dead line" has to be...no money no reservation- your sign-up is scratched. On limited "slot" trips (usually high adventure treks; sea base white water canoe weeks etc.) we have a "show interest" sign-up(sorta pre-sign up)...if it looks like we have more interest than slots and we can not expand the trek- it is announced in meetings and by email that the event is "first cash- first served"... Now, before the "bleeders" start crying about folks with money "issues", everyone in this troop is told that there are people within the troop who will fund a worthy scout and it is printed in black and white -in our troop policy hand outs... so money is really not a issue. Food is the same way...if you sign up and do not have your food money to give the patrol grubmaster on "Money Monday", the patrol gives you one more chance...to show up for the provisioning trip with cash and they will then buy food for you...miss it and you do not come on the trip...'cause there is no food for you- This is true even if you have paid a camping fee...of course the camping fee will be returned IF the troop or patrol can find someone to take the slot. Embarrassed? lost program? -bull hockey and hog snorts...The program is there, A lot of hard work goes into each event. You can take the opportunity or not...IF the troop will stick to it (the hard line) and is firm... the word gets around. Short story (again) when we came to the troop we found that "rally" and "move out" times were a myth. Troop/patrol would "publish" a 5:15 PM Friday evening "leave the Church" time and we would sit there for a whole hour trying to call different AWOLs... over the course of an entire program year not one schedule was kept...Several if the newer dads decided to spend several months (summer)publicizing the new policy and the first three events we left several scouts (and scouters) home...traffic, after school activities, getting gear together...whatever the excuse- we just left on time...the rest of the year we had no issues...Parents were told ...have him there or be prepared to drive him 100 miles or drive him home...It does work as does collecting money...but you must be consistent. Anarchist

Canoe menus depend on what you want to eat and how much you want to carry...dehydrated is ok...but real food is better. On a typical weekend canoe trip we will eat very well. for say 10 to 12 boys and a few adults we will make riverside camp friday night. Saturday morning is usually coffee, cocoa and tang with oatmeal and a bagel. While we are cleaning up and packing from breakfast we make a chicken or tuna salad,(since we have plenty of ice -frozen steaks - we would add mayo in zip locks at camp) -no ice...mix it at lunch site in zip locks-no dishes to clean). Take a head of lettuce and finely shred with sharp knife for a topping and use pocket bread to make pita sandwiches when you pull off the river for lunch. Add chips for more crunch and "salt" value- very quick, very little clean up. Water or lemonade to drink. Dinner is steak, lipton pasta sides dishes ($0.50 per serving),or baked potato, canned sweet white corn and a cobbler (yes we take a dutch oven sometimes two)If the fishing is good it becomes surf and turf night...sorta- just remember to take a bottle of oil along. Breakfast Sunday is usually pancakes sometimes eggs too, unless we have a lot of paddling to do...then it might be bagles and chedder cheese or cheese whiz or peanut butter and jelly or maybe even oatmeal if we are in a big hurry...if we have time and the trot line is good to us we have fish with whatever was planned! lunch sunday (or Saturday) is simple and the boys love it...two or three types of sausage; hard salami,beef summer sausage and pepperoni, couple of types of hard cheese, onion finely sliced lots of types of crackers and some mustard...set up a table top (we use a folding 'stand' an old refridgerator wire shelf which doubles as a grill )slice every thing and stand back as the "vultures" graze...they simply love making cracker sandwiches...and the sausages and hard cheeses need no refridgeration if Ice is "short"- even fresh eggs can be taken if you protect them from the sun... and bumps... Dinner Sunday is usually on the road at some type of semi nice restaurant...but sometimes just a burger joint.... need more ideas...just ask... Hint for canoe treking if the canoes are yours- drill the gunnels and add several paracord (550 line) loops to each and then you can use bungie cords or rope to quickly secure every thing...if its borrowed/rented boats however drilling is not an option. anarchist

va-scouter, What is it that Tony the Tiger says...GGGGRRREAT! (?) Well 2007 will be our second year in a row...and it is farther from us than our council camp...In fact, we sort of drive by our council camp to get there..and can you say "Oh, So Much better". Last Year we had boys doing Powhatan, Boys doing the Mountain man adventure, boys doing the New River whitewater adventure camp and boys doing the long distance Hike (forgot the name of the session)- about40 boys in all. These folks know how to do the summercamp "thing". Program is well planned..."Giving away" merit badges is not the primary goal of this camp complex (CAN YOU SAY FANTASTIC!). They are more program oriented...getting the boys active and involved in outdoors "stuff". The staff attitude is that of knowledgable "Pros" interested in your scouts good experience and not in their own (staff's)"good" time. (Have you ever experienced camps where the staff treats your scouts like they are someone "ruining" the staff's summer vacation? Let your scouts see the program (good web site) and if you can make it work for you ... let your older scouts do their own thing at some of the "higher level" camps...Mountain Man got five stars, two thumbs up and and a few high fives from our guys... As did the New river whitewater program and the boating camp. Good luck! Anarchist

hold on richwebelomom... In addition to the difficult ones the scout stuff people have some nice LEATHER slides. Simple laced together "cones" of cow hide. These in many cases are packaged in den size project packs(groups of eight). You can then decide if you want to get a small leather tooling kit for the pack and each den "stamp out" patterns, which is a hoot or perhaps paint or "stain" the leather or just lace the things up and use them au naturel...I carry five of them in my glove box for "lending" to our boys at special events (flag cerimonies, picture ops, service projects) when their slides have gone missing. just a thought Anarchist