anarchist

Can I play? forgive the long post but this subject is near and dear to my heart! Webelos to Scouts -What to do?....Retention will always be an issue...lots of reasons for dropping out- but we need to remember to beat ourselves up only over those issues we can change... that said: ALL WEBELOS LEADERS SHOULD HAVE OUTDOOR LEADER TRAINING! As I have said before old "W-LOT" training was some of the most useful I have seen come out of BSA...While most was not new to me I only had to look around to see "brains" clicking and ideas forming...Most of the Adult leaders were getting a useful weekend of training (mostly on what could be done...not wat not to do!) Webelos dens need to start transitioning to the patrol method... as "Webelos I's", which means den leaders must understand the patrol method...understand it not just know it as a phrase to use. Webelos dens need to campout a few times...or more! Local scout troops can help with this...just ask them for assistance! Webelos dens should meet weekly (our pack incouraged all dens to meet three/four times a month outside of the monthly Pack meeting. Webelos leaders (having an Idea of which Troops in the area are "available" for their boys to cross into) should get together with those troops early in the Webelos II year (late webelos I?) to get summercamp details and get this information out to the Webelos parents...Info is cheap...and is not classified "TOP SECRET"...giving it out does not mean parents are committing to troops, but it starts planting seeds for future decision making. Troops need to work with Packs- den chiefs, co ordinated outdoors events and pack demonstrations are vital to building bridges and helping Webelos (and parents) determine which troop is a better fit... NSPs need to be assigned good guides (strong scouts - not your weakest!. NSPs need a strong, and well trained ASM assigned to help them along...and generally we find it better to have an Adult leader who does not have a boy in the patrol (an older troop dad). Of course any and all of the WEBELOS DADS wanting to assist are welcome...(fill ot the form get trained, put on a uniform and pour a cup of "Joe"). SPL needs to be aware that the NSPs need their own training program as well as troop training when he plans his weekly/monthly/annual meetings (and program) SPL and troop Guides need to be sure that NSPs are having fun...just turning the NSP loose to plan for a camp out three weeks in a row will not work! Troop needs to train Webelos parents...communicate early on and often, what the troop "vision" is...What is expected and wanted from new scouts and parents. Frankly, many of us want to load up our troops with all comers...(a quanity over quality issue?)...The thinking sorta goes along the lines of "if some scouts drop out -as long as you recruited a bunch-you're ok!". When in reality, if you work hard at getting webelos (and parents) who believe in your troop's vision ...to join with you, you are starting well ahead of any "numbers" game. After all if you can identify a "webelos III" family in advance and you know your troop offers a (somewhat?) chaotic, outdoors crazy, boy led high adventure type program...you are doing the webelos and the troop a diservice in wasting the boys time and the troop's resources by recruiting them...It seems to me that all would be better off if the Webelos III family could be directed elsewhere. Use your new scout patrol shakedown campout to train parents as well as new scouts in the patrol method. (We prefer this event to be a scout leaders (SPL, ASPL, Guides and a few instructors)and NSPs only event...most of our boys stay home or do patrol activities for this event weekend...We find that it takes a lot of pressure off the NSP if they do not feel they have to "perform" as well as the older scouts...so with pressure off -they learn more! As has been said here before...there is a direct connection between parent interest/support and retention...We see year in year out that the NSPs with the most active parent bases have the greatest retention rates. We also see, year in- year out, that the retention rates of webelos dens that have never camped as cubs or have only been out once or twice are truely dismal. Recently we witnessed two new scout patrols cross-over to our troop from the same Pack. One patrol was adult led by a "gung ho" guy who seemed to be running a 7 scout mini boy scout troop...the kids loved being in the woods, hiking, fishing, even cooking. About half the parents could be said to be really active. The second patrol was led by a lady (a dear and old fiend of mine) who had no clue about camping (didn't like it) and although most of her Webelos had 18-20 activity pins and AOLs they had never experienced real outdoors activities. Family camping was simply a parent catered event. They also had only one dad even slightly interested in helping... At the start -two troop guides (A good guide and a weaker back up) and an outstanding senior adult ASM were assigned to mentor but after roughly 6 months (including a trip to summercamp for about half of them)...five of seven boys have left the troop program...The poor SM and the outstanding ASM are beside themselves wondering what they did wrong... Exit interviews with boys (and a parent for each) all pointed to the same things... too much work, camping was not fun, hiking was too hard, cleaning dishes was moms job, independent advancement was too much like school work...But, the video game centered "lock-in" at the local rec center with pizza and sodas was cool!...we needed more of that! These boys expectations were different, their training was different, the parent support was different...and it led to a systematic program disaster. The troop could have done better (of course -we all can) but IMHO it was just a bad fit and these boys had no real chance...from the start...I firmly think they needed a webelos III troop. A similar situation was what got me working with our troop a full year before my oldest son crossed over (12-13 years ago). As a Webelos I leader, I watched a whole patrol from our pack quickly unravel after it crossed over. I wanted to be sure my son was heading to a good troop, so I started helping out. It was quckly apparent that the troop (at that time) had a sink or swim attitude towards new scouts...and a program aimed at high adventure and very weak on new scout activities. But it was equally clear that the adult den leader who went "up" with the boys had no parent support and expected the troop to be an arts and crafts-class room rank/merit badge mill...which it definietly was not....again a poor fit...I might add-the other patrol that crossed over with her patrol that year,produce 3 eagles and 5 of six boys aged out...so it obvisously was not just a "bad troop" thing. Last, programs (ccaisionally)need to evolve; in business speak the clientele changes! Older adults need to let the younger guys and gals help direct the troop into the future. Just as new scouts grow into leadership positions new parents must ne encouraged to step up and take over... anarchist

In the old days coleman had numerous authourized repair locations..sadly is seem repair is not what the want...its replacement.... That said Coleman has a fairly extensive (if some what slow) web site with lots of parts...Try there first. If you contact them with a question...be prepared to be answered by a brain dead "dwebe" who's answer to everything is ..."Well maybe its time to think about a new______". Sometimes you have to call two or three times to get someone who really wants to help you. I have been keeping four stoves and five old (very old) white gas lanterns working for 20-36 years (and counting) can't say that about propane gear.... If all else fails haul your stove down to an old plumbing supply store/country hardware (not a big box) and have them look at the "o" rings and gaskets as you dismantle the stove...they seem to have old drawers full of tiny pieces that can work.... good luck Anarchist

Aw geeze Eammonn, ya had to go and ruin a good introspective narrative by hoping OJ learns to hate hunting! Most of my Southern forebearers and I think all of my Native American forefathers would heartily disagree with that sentiment (as would every PA truck driver that has whiped out a deer and a truck in a collision). Hunting is noble and necessary endeavor(as well as an enjoyable past-time). Killing or harvesting, if you prefer, of wildlife is particularly necessary unless you are willing to re-introduce cougars, wolves and bears into suburbia. We have taken out the pedators and unless we function in that position over population is the result. Hunting teaches one to wait, reflect and plan. It is a perfect opportunity for a hunter with a young man in tow to teach respect for the outdoors and the game we hunt. Ethics in taking clean kill shots, in being clean in our outdoor manners, repecting the rights of land owners, being safe...lots of scouting basics... It leads "good ol'country boys" to become active stewards of the environment... even after the modern education system has failed in that area. It controls and improves a renewable resource, feeds people (including those less well off...read- "Hunters for the Hungry"). It saves some folks gardens and orchards from the dining pleasures of hungry (starving?) deer. It keeps herds in check and helps control "over population" infections like hemoragic fever and plain old starvation. And by the way it tastes pretty darn good too if you take proper care of your kill and handle it the way any food should be cared for. Please hook OJ up with an ethical and safe hunter, have him take your states Hunter safety program...in other words get him good instruction...so the young man has a chance to do it right. I doubt if you would have said "I hope OJ really fails at sailing" (or whatever) so try not to let your personal prejudice pre ordain the outcome of OJs hunting expericene experience...as in all things our children do...why would we want to encourage failure??? Some of my best friends are hunters, most of my scouting friends are hunters and fishermen (women). The act of hunting which results in a clean kill and the prcessing of that animal for food is certainly less "ethically challenged" than supporting the "factory farm" process by purchasing your meat in a plastic wrapper! :>) anrchist

Narrator: "Don't need no sewing merit badge! Its all "modern moms" fault!" (script notes :duck for cover...for appropriate number of years)! Back in the dark ages "Mom" sat me down with my Cub Scout uniform and MADE ME watch her sew on my pack numbers and council patch. She then tacked on my den number and MADE ME sew it the rest of the way...then came my rank patches Wolf Bear and Lion and arrow points..she tacked them on and I sewed the rest... As a cub some of our activities were sewing very pprimative stuffed animals, bean bags and finally small leather "Native American medicine pouches" When I became a Boy Scout Mom had me rip the old patches off(my first uniform was a hand-me-down) and gave me my new patches and her sewing kit...I was on my own. Each patch looked better than the last... Then also, as a scout we were expected to try our hand at making a small ruck sack, sleeping bag or tent from canvas -it was all part of a scout is thrifty....all by the way, now lost to most scouts now days...even though you can find examples in the scout literature. Backpack enthusiasts have made their own gear for years, patterns and designs are traded back and forth but we seem have lost the art...or the time...through becoming more "modern"... And this is not a "new" phenomena, I witnessed this first hand in high school (pterodactyls had just gone extinct) when it was pointed out that I was a better "seamstress" than my girl friend (and future better half)...who in a fit of domesticity had just sewed a "popped button" onto the inside facing of my shirt...(oops!) Later I scored major "points" with my future mother-in-law by "making" her a leather "purse" that in her words was better than anything she had seen in the stores (just a copy of the black powder possibles bag I had made for myself...with a few extra zippers). Like cooking, sewing is valuable to young men but it should be taught in CUB SCOUTS! As equipment/QM mentor for the troop I teach scouts to sew patches on flys and tents annually (we always sew the patch as well ad "glue/seal" it on...the also learn to re grommit flys and do in the field duct tape repairs! (limitations?) Anarchist As a merit badge I am afraid it would be a flop...Now duct tape is another matter...but mlg0171....I was unaware of any limitation of that noble product? ;>)

Boy led instructionals can be and often are disasters...why?...Poor training, sometimes! Poor leadership? sometimes! Poor instruction technique...nearly always! IMHO, mainly 'cause most boys are just (like the rest of us) basically lazy! As "boy led" program adult mentors, too often we "allow" programs to be "planned" and assigned and then go on auto pilot(as do the PLs and SPLs) expecting scout instructors to be natural teachers. I have sat through "thorns and roses" (post mortems) of failed classes and heard (hundreds of times now): "too much lecture and not enough hands on work". But when it is the "complainers" turn to teach -he/they fall into the same trap..."lecture, without hands on activity"! And why? 'Cause "it" is easier to throw together at the last minute...no gear/materials to gather no real lesson plan...just stand up and read from the book ...or pull it from where the sun don't shine.... The number of times I have heard..."well, I sent out an email, but didn't hear back from anyone", when an SPL in explaining another failed meeting is astounding. But the Adult leaders need to remember that scouting has many competing activities and unless we are willing to go the extra mile..with guidelines, deadlines, call me back ticklers how can we expect it to trickle down? Sure it is more work but we must constantly stand at the scouts elbow and softly make corrections, hints and suggestions...even lending a gentle hand occaisionally to avoid setting the troop up for constant failure...as we train the older scouts we may find time to stand back but only rarely do we actually get to sit down to drink our coffee...And yes as it has been said hundreds of thousands of times...boy led is more work and more chaos for the adults than a Webelos III troop program...but if we really believe in the Boy Led idea we need to support it with the extra work... This means the SPL must set out his requirements for completed lesson plans...even virtual scripts and the plans to "make it fun" at a date certain. This has to be early enough in the time line for "needed corrections". It also means the program must be determined literally months before a training class is offered so the instructors can work out the kinks of their presentations-"practice makes, at least a bit, more perfect". It means the Scoutmaster must have his own set of ticklers in order to rattle the cage of the SPL at each point along the program path to be sure the SPL rattles the cages of his patrol leaders and instructors....and thusly, lots of email and phone contacts in addition to meetings....anything less opens the system to frequent failure...unless of course you have a troop of supper teachers... You know, salesmen are always saying, "the secret to being a super salesman is making the buyer think that the idea to say "yes" and buy a product, is actually the purchasers own idea...and not the salesman's" Sometimes teaching is like that also...if we stand back - but close enough to nudge them and make quiet suggestions the teachers can "find" their way more often than not...and if we see a problem developing, often times we can step in along-side the teaching scout and with a deft..."another way to think about______, is to do it this way"...and the "deal" gets done -with just a little extra help.... The idea is much like being a Troop guide for the NSPs...it is not to doing it ourselves, but guiding the boys to be able to doing for themselves...and IF we do "IT" they don't have to do "IT". In a final not, we have found it necessary occaisionally to provide an adult mentor to literally teach the "ropes" to a couple of instructors..leading them through lesson plans, script writing and practice until they are ready to handle and audience...lots of work but particularly effective with younger scouts. and Barry loves this scouting stuff.... anarchist

Eagles...love them all...wouldn't care if we grew another Eagle -ever...IF we could keep all our boys in the program til they aged out... That said, some boys and FAMILIES need the rank advancement part of the program to have a measuring stick...others are in the program purely to get their son's "Eagle Ticket" punched for his resume...what ever the reason, every campout and service project we can keep a boy active on gives us another small chance to mentor, teach, guide, correct, touch the boys heart (is that too much?)and THAT is what WE are about... Every boy who gets into the program has potential to be changed...influenced, if you will, to be a better citizen and friend and neighbor. And you never know what the down stream effects may be... We just found out that the next Troop SM will be the dad of an Eagle who just "aged out". The man has two more sons in the troop. His comment to the Committee Chair was; "ol anarchist" had made the program from Webelos through Eagle a mixture of hard work and fun for his oldest son so he wanted to keep "it" going for his younger sons and pay something back to the Troop! And who knows what else may happen...down stream! Y'all keep up the ggod work... Anarchist

GaHillBilly, Fun...what I think of as fun (like dropping a deer hair bug next to a log hoping for a small mouth) many scouts find boring so thats why we encourage THEM to build and maintain the program...and then we support it! If THEY find it FUN then there is a chance they stick around longer and absorb more "scouting stuff". Which is not a bad goal?! "Gangs", even todays boy form gaggles of interest and friendship...One of our past SMs remarked as he was about to leave that one of the "coolest" things he found with our program was when he asked a bunch of 17 year olds - boys who has been together (mostly) from Cub Scouts onward (all working toward Eagle)-why they kept coming to meetings?: was they all independently answered..."to hang with my friends". It can and does work! (and the more fun THEY have in the program...the better it works!) feeder packs are good...if you interface and train them as they come up and over- as to what your program expects and what they can do to prepare for boy scouting. And a lot of "truth in advertizing" pays here...particularly for non-feeder pack webelos dens...If they see the "great program" and think it is delivered on a silver platter...you can have a disaster...just watched a patrol nearly self destruct because they expected webelos III...and got boy led instead...a difficult time. Advancement and the Eagle: Boys should be gently "shown how its done their first year...as they are eased towards first class (though I think first class in first year is a terrible goal...). After that advancement really needs to find its place in the heart of the scout...some are driven to achieve rank some are more interested in just camping and hanging together along a mountain trail or along a river...or in a snow hut. Nothing wrong with either. But parents should be careful and walk softly... As a committee member sitting boards, nothing tore at my heart more than hearing the usually sullen though sometimes just disinterested scout says, "I'm only in scouts 'cause dad wants me to make Eagle"...the vast majority of these kids usually come to hate the program and never do make it to eagle...I can't help but wonder if dad just let it be and said "have fun" would the % change? As the father of an "aged out" death-bed Eagle (I know-guys) and a second son who dropped scouting as he approached his Life rank I see little difference in the two boys (not that they are not really night and day apart) but both are good kids,(young men now) both are doing well in college, both still go camping and fishing with me when the time is right (in fact the younger boy camps and does outdoors stuff more than his "Eagle brother". He also regularly goes back and helps his younger troop friends with eagle work progects and goes with me to many Eagle CoRs...Eagle rank truly is great but it is not what the program is really about... As a SM once said to me during a moment of dispair..."scouting would be a lot more fun without the parents"...and to a point he was right...even though he really didn't mean those words... If parents would back off and let the scouts find their own program direction and then jump in and help make it work- there would be many more scouts staying in the program and having more fun...but as parents our natural inclination is "we can do it better for them"...which sometimes is just not the case. Not every troop is going to be spit 'n' polish, or webelos III or baden powell or the U.S. Marines...but with work they can all offer something to the boys if we just keep them working on it. my two cents ANARCHIST

while I feel the pain of the "term limit" crowd, it is just way too individual a problem to hang on term limits...I have seen a 20 year SM who reguarded as a saint by his scouts and the community and only poor health forced him out. Boys in his early years and boys in his later years all loved his program... I have also a four year SM step down and leave such a power vacume that the troop really foundered...this guy was a fantastic boy led advocate but his follow up SM had a heck of a time directing the program... I have seen a two year SM leave to prevent a whole sale mutiny and a six year SM just fade away... I am sure many of us have other experiences but to pull the rug out from under a working program...just be cause...and you have no good reason or even a new outstanding replacement just seem like the Lilliputians want to be in charge. Or perhaps its just the "off with their heads" crowd's only way to win?;>) anarchist

Amen, Hunt and Venividi... the whole story...we rarely get anything approaching two sides and we seem to take pleasure in judging others which is perhaps the worst part of this... This last week I have been dragged into a minor troop crisis over what appears to be a difference of perceptions of what went on in a BoR... Being the oldest active troop committee member, I seem to be viewed as everyones father confessor, referee or bartender (I am not sure which or even why...my people skills are severely lacking). In this case; lad's dad (an ASM) heard from his boy that he "failed" the BoR 'cause of uniform issues...unfortuately, dad then went off on one of the BoR members in full view of half the parents (and some of the boys) in the troop...to further fan the fires, another ASM acting for our SM and doing the boys "introduction to the BoR" actually went back into the board and tried to change the vote...result -four very active committee members now refusing to do BoRs...one refusing to be in the same room or event with one of the ASMs! I was not on the board...I did get calls from the dad, and all four board members...after the meeting. All hotter than hornets...and all with a differing view of what happened as well as several assumed motivations.. Relative truth appears to be that the prospective Star Scout (a good kid-I have known for six years-but the baby of the family and very inmature), did not take the BoR seriously... He stumbled through the oath, law and outdoor code, did not answer the majority of board questions without an "I don't know" or "I don't remember", plus a host of other "I forget" issues about his rank accomplishments, merit badges as well as his goals and his activities ... This left all four board members wanting him to return in two weeks to give it a better shot...all feeling he had not demonstrated Star "qualities" -again to all four board members.... I might follow this with the information that (IMHO) two of these board members would usually (and have done so in the past) "pass" a scout as long as he had a pulse, if the SM said he was worthy... So, Obvisously, for whatever reason the scout had a bad night...which was exasperated by the father and the other ASM both of whom crossed a very bad line that evening. The only good part of all this was after the dad scooped up all his stuff and ordered his son out of the hall ("we're going home")...the lad walked back into the meeting room and finished the meeting...somewhat red faced but he sid not run from the problem...(I did tell his dad I was very proud of the boy...and "dad" acknowledged that his son was a bigger person than he was that evening) Now the repair work begins...and it is mostly due to a lack of maturity and patience on the part of the two ASMs...the dad got overly tied up in his sons advancement/achievements and further complicated things by "going off a very deep end" without good, or complete information...he did not even try to get the whole story... Sorta like we do all the time in these threads. Most of what some of us are saying boils down to: Try to remember, when answering a "are these guys bad guys or what?" type of question, is that the "petitioner" usually already has a dog in the fight and rarely gives the "other side" a fair "reading" and we can and often time do more harm than good buy issuing wholesale judgements and "rogue troop" verdicts...much like giving a child a loaded gun and saying now go to school and have fun...just try to be kind and well reasoned in your pronouncments... finally- I have met all kinds of scouter "twits" in the last 16 years...(of which I am surely one of the greatest) but I can honestly say not a single one of these folks could be honestly thought of as wanting to "hurt" the scouting program or the boys...they all think they are in some way helping and really mean to help....that has to count for something. anarchist

After 12 years working with a troop, 16 with a pack and having taken hand in a slow take over of the troop program I can say it is hard work that is not done over night. And if the program has any portion of "boy led" operating; the boys can be the greatest hurdle to overcome...Strange as it may seem; the boys themselves can be the single largest barrier to change..."we have always do it this way" means a lot to boys...Change can be seen by boys as very unsettling. Of course, Adults can be real pains too! But over the years I have seen a lot of newbie "suggestors" -who when asked to take their "helpful suggestion" and "make it so" (our troop practice is if you want something to happen- you had better be willing to roll up your sleeves and do the grunt work)...these folks generally have run for the hills. Maybe not at first, but most have over-time left or stopped coming to meetings... It is easy to say "do it this way" and walk away 'cause you don't have time...or job commitments, or sports etc., but it gets harder when you have organizational rules to follow,a C.O. to answer to, numberous personalities to deal with, and 40-60 boys to convince that your change is a "good thing". Many newbies do not understand realities of current BSA risk management...as in ; "what do you mean I can't let my 12 year old operate the ski boat with two young scouts in tow he does it all the time with the family"...or "who says my son can't go on the white water canoe trip if he has not passed his swimmers test?" or "who made the stupid rule that my 11 year old can't go caving with you?". Some want to change troops into merit badge/eagle mills cause their sons would advance "so much faster" if every thing was taught in large group/troop meetings every Monday night and then get mad when they get no support. Some newbies ( and I use the term with the utmost of love and kindness)just want to hijack the boy led chaos and have every scout sit on their hands, be quiet and play nice...do the shopping, set the camp for the boys...(as in third year webelos) but you name the issue and we have seen most of them... Most parents (note parents here) after choosing the troop program for whatever reasons fail to appreciate that in most stable (dare I say even successful)programs the "current troop family" has found something that "more or less works" and as we all learned in high school physics (or on jepardy) inertia means stationary stuff takes more energy to get rolling...and sometimes you just have to "pay your dues to play". How long before you are listened to? guess that depends, maybe never...Experience has shown me that many suggestions are made in the wrong venue or at the wrong time, some with the wrong tone of voice or mannerism, many are made "off the cuff" and appear to the "oldies" as just "flinging stuff against the wall to see what sticks"...To often the "suggestors" just toss out ideas that have been heard by the "oldies" before, maybe even tried but that didn't work or were not interesting to the boys and so not supported by the boys (PLC). We had a discussion recently about a 3rd year parent telling the SM what was wrong with the advancemnt policy in our troop. In that talk with our CC, the comment was made that this parent has not lifted a finger in three years to help and has no credibility with the folks on the program side so why should anyone on the committee listen to him tell them how it should be done?! Entrenched leadership? "term limits"? -interesting thoughts...but frankly I have seen more troops go through serious even existential problems just after adult leader turnover/change outs because the newbies didn't have the legs (staying power) or knowledge or skill to see "it" through. I have seen older boys drop out of scouting when the SM they all love leaves cause he is just "burnt out" and no new guys can measure up. Let alone when a troop finds a SM with several scout (sequenced) aged children who is just great with the kids and the program (and willing)...you tell that person to step down??? And as Beav says...would you want your son following a guy on a wilderness trip...who had never done it before? And frankly as one of the oldest adult leaders in the troop; it is really funny to hear a 4th or 5th year dad called part of the old boys network or one of the good ol boys...when four years ago he was a newbie railing at the entrenched leadership... my two cents anarchist

Lisabob, If he can not use a D.O. for the corn bread...(and BTW D.O. corn bread can be heavenly...) the corn bread can be cooked in a heavy Iron skillet just as you would a bannock (portage trail bread)and without a reflector oven with some before hand practice... I am sure if he checked the net for "bannock" he would get "the picture" -But basically, you cook the bottom of bread over low heat (coals) and after a while you build a dare I say "roaring" fire wall"- a "wall of fire" made of large-kindling sized wood (splits)'standing nearly straight up' (leaned on a spit of wood or metal)at the edge of your baking area...The "nearly" formed- half cooked loaf (in the frying pan) is tilted and "propted-up" toward the fire to "catch the reflected heat of the "wall of fire". The pan is turned after a five/ten minutes and rotated over the balance of the cooking time so that the top is heated more or less uniformly. This is a cool- "no extra equipment" type of baking but it usually takes a few loaves to get it right. He could also just "flip" the cornbread after it sets (like a pancake) "frying" both sides. In all cases, have him use a real recipe (eggs- milk- shortening etc) for corn bread and not a "jiffy mix". (not that I have a problem with mixes). He will find if he cuts in the shortening to his dry mix and "heavies up" on the sugar (say 25% more than most recipes call for)and lards his pan real well the bread will be great and clean-up so much easier. good eating Anarchist

t'was a slow weekend for us... we had 15 boys helping with an Elementary School Festival and 13 boys helping a local church with its fall harvest festival (homecoming)...couple of D.O. demonstrations, good community relations...etc. Getting ready (next week)for a Caving/Hike campout (climbing and crawling under the mountain for the older scouts and Hiking on the mountain for the younger boys)

nothing wrong with old aluminium D.O.s wish I could find a few of the old sruare and rectangle ones! newer Aluminium D.O.s tend to be thinner and smaller... if you have worn your fingers to the bone and still want to get it "even cleaner"...and do not want to use chemicals...which can be problematic. Put lots of hot water in it and boil the heck out of it...then while still hotter than blazes...hold steady with D.O. glove and "scrub" with a paste made of baking soda using a cheap electric tooth brush (and if you have one- a dental water pick)...if nothing more you will have sterilized anything in the "taste pits" and folks... old Aluminum D.O.s are fine...they can even make a short back packing trip more fun if your into cobblers or bread...they are great on canoe trips when you are cutting weight for portages! Still love my Iron wear but wish I had some of the old Alum. D.O.s anarchist

Ah, it's fall and the "everyones a twit" birds are out again... so let me get this straight...troop doesn't trust merit badge mills??? wants to make sure boys actually qualified and were not simply "signed off" for having a pulse and finding the merit badge class??? gosh, sign me up! Of course the tried and true "its the book and the book is law" types..reguardless of the real "on the ground" will brand the troop and SM a rogue organization, but that just makes me want to love the guys even more! Guess Fscouter still believes that no scout program is better than one that has its own quirks...sorry, but I think I would rather have a son in this troop than FScouters... And the "newbie" (sorry Foxpatrol- I mean it in a friendly way)is told run away, find another troop...bad, bad scout master! Well I guess that just depends on what you want for your son, now doesn't it? I did not read that this troop wanted extra work...just that they wanted "proof" the work had merit...wow what a concept?!?! Most, (dare I say all?) substantive merit badges "taught" (given away?) at summercamps are IMHO -worth less than "road apples"...Our troop has been in and out of council camps and camps in all surrounding states over the last 12 years and while some are better than others the quality of the "learning that goes on" (not judging the teaching here)is dismal. As a MB councelor for canoeing, camping, cooking, horsemanship, fishing, flyfishing and First Aid I have found very few merit badge awards valid...Valid, that is if you expect the boys to know or remember anything they were "taught". FoxPatrol, you pick the subject...time and time again when I am working with Scouts who have gotten "that" MB at Summercamp or some other "mill" they are almost uniformly clueless...I get "I don't remember" so much it is very disheartening...Face it (or can anyone here be truely honest?) with 20-25 scouts in the room or on the water front how many boys actually do the work or answer the questions? In a traditional "1 or 2 scouts and the councelor" situation the scouts are actually responcible for their own work and progress...and some measurable amount of "it" does "stick" inside their noodle! So FoxPatrol, It may just boil down to whether or not you want your son given awards he really did not earn (learn?). Or would you rather know that when his troop hands out rank and merit badges that they have quality over quantity in mind? Frankly, I would rather that our boys select a summer program that was fun over the "merit badge mills"...cause I would rather see them "chase" merit badges where I knew they would be challenged and not just given a piece of paper for being alive and present... But hey, you might one of those parents just interested in getting your son his Eagle for his college resume just as fast as possible, without worrying about "work done well"...But, then, I guess, that kind of "judgement" on my part, like the others in this thread would not be Friendly or Kind...now would it ;>) For what it is worth, when joining a troop you should ask questions, read literature talk to the leaders and senior scouts about what the goals and philosophy are like and after choosing watch and listen a while before judging others. It is amazing how "reasonable" some of these troops seem ...after you know what they are about... Anarchist

First.... repeat after me..."No kid ever starved on a weekend". Fact is most folks in extreme situations can go several WEEKS without food... If a scout does not want to partake...why not let him bring his own food...outside of "no food in tents", we allow scouts to provide their own eats if they want..But they still pay a food share, just in case they forget their own "special" grub. Then the patrol does not have to "suffer" on shared short rations and the grub master knows everyone is provided for. Usually after a few camps it dies out...We do have a "soda and candy" tradition..if you bring it -you share with your patrol...(jerky and trail mix are personal items)...but all food must be kept out of tents... Have the patrol keep doing the patrol thing, be sure "Mr. picky" does his turns at grub master, kitchen duty and clean up and he will more than likely slowly come around...then again he might not...but who is harmed by his "issue"? One small detail, however- these guys sometimes try to consume other scout's "share" of cobbler, cookies, cocoa -whatever, so just be sure that they only get their fair share of patrol goodies...(had a scout once who would eat (not drink) as many cocoa packets as he could get away with leaving the patrol with out cocoa halfway through the weekend) anarchist

as one long time growing, small town troop to another...food sales and drinks are great small town fund raisers... pasta and salad dinners have raised $1,000 per supper in profits, pancake breakfasts $7-800...pop corn and sodas/ water/ cocoa/ coffee at local parades, civic events and flea markets clear two -three hundred...We took on the job of setting out American flags for the local ruritans because their membership was no longer able to do it and they reward our boys with $200-$300 per year for equipment....we also have been paid by local clubs to direct "field parking" at carnivals and large flea markets, sold fire wood, and mulch and hot dogs at the county fair...just dot your "i''s" and cross your "t''s" before you dive in.... Anarchist

All, been thinking about this thread a lot...been thinking about all the less than "good" training I have taken to be a troop helper person...and truthfully most of it stank to some degree or another...but in the end I can not see it changing in any great or real way. As they used to say a few years ago time for a Reality check... (and I hate to defend BSA on any issue) The Facts: Most of us pay peanuts for training (Woodbadge being the exception perhaps). Most of us pay peanuts to "belong" to the organization. Most of us complain loudly when BSA sends around the FOS guys and Gals ''cause it takes more than a few dollars to keep the councils coffers out of the red... Followed by challenges: On the unit level we are constantly fighting and begging to find really good volunteers. We have a tough time finding key people on the level of direct service provision (...just the place where we should expect the best results) Most good volunteers, at the troop level, duck and cover when district or council volunteers are "called for" (especially me!). Most District and council volunteers hear nothing but complaints (from folks like me)or worse... District Volunteer corps tend like old troops to form into "old fa_ts" cliques...(after all when you are in the trenches and all the folks outside are tossing grenades at you...you tend form a defensive unit...) Then, we expect BSA/council/district to wave a magic hiking stave and provide energetic, engaged, enlightened, up-to-date, open minded, unbiased, "no-baggage-here" motivational superstars...who offer to hold courses that fit our every whim and schedule need, right in our back yards, while cooking brats and brewing joe....and working up a couple of cobblers on the side... Chorus: OF COURSE WE DO! Reality Check: I just finished taking a professional training seminar...Only offered a couple of times a year. Only offered in a few cities on each coast. The speaker/instructor was great! Cost was $350 for the day. Treatment was first class! How many moms and dads would volunteer if we told them...Well let''s see; "Basics" will cost $200, YPT- $75, Safty Afloat/Safe Swim $75, New leader fundamentals $200, Outdoor training $400 for the weekend, CPR- $75, First Aid $100, Wilderness Leader First Aid $450 and then you will know what you are doing! (and you will be treated really really well!).... I Think in the scouting world we tend to forget a little about reality...(how many of our gangs complain that $250 for a week of summer camp is extravagant?) When in fact unless you are ready to pay for a service it is difficult to provide a service for free or nearly free. Just thoughts -not an arguement! I still think if you want to wear the patch, you should be willing to do what it takes...

Think Gunny2862 has it about right. Our troop has timberline XT 2''s and 4''s (fours are definitely less than perfect back packers but the two-mans, split between two scouts results in each scout having about 4 pounds or less to carry in the way of tentage) Damage occurrs, these are KIDs after all, but most is horse play or bags tearing...not willful misuse. We loose the occasional stake or tarp line but it is now a rare occurance. We instituted troop dues a few years back and one of the componants of those dues was repairs and replacement costs of equipment. Its just good planning. So repairs are now in the budget. The QM is very good at checking in tents. He has a form for everything...pretty anal! If weather is appropriate we let the tents dry at the camp site Sunday AM (troop/patrol protocol is to have all personal gear packed and sitting beside your tent when you exit Sunday morning for services and breakfast...Tents are opened up to start airing out. Before the tent is bagged the QM visits each pair of scouts and physically inspects that all poles, lines, pins and parts bags are present and only then will he approve packing the tent away. If there is a problem it is noted on a tag and if not a "quick fix Item" he deals with it later. If Sunday weather is wet....Scouts are sent home with the tent and it is expected back Monday night... After campouts, the QM makes an anouncement to the parents picking up their scouts, (yes, we require scouts to "check out" before they leave -so the SPL can check them off his list) that "all tents are to be cleaned and "arranged for dry-out"" before the scouts be allowed to get their showers that night...Don''t know if it really works, but we have only one "wet tent" issue in the last four years... If for some reason a scout does not return a tent or tarp on MOnday night he will return it no later than the following Thursday...so it is ready for use (if needed) by patrols on Friday. If a scout can not have it dry and ready to inspect Monday he must physically deliver it to the QM (at the QMs home) for inspection Thursday night. The QM will make a call on Tuesday (to Check on his missing tents)... to the scout(and SM will make a call to parents if necessary) to be sure the tent is not being left in a dark corner to get smelly. Boys who are felt to "need a lesson" in the proper handling and care of gear get "detailed" to the QM and the Adult QM mentor (me) where he will spend a day, maybe more, patching tent bags, cutting, whipping tarp lines, cleaning/repairing canoes, sorting stakes, repairing or re-bungie cording poles, cleaning stoves, washing/inspecting tents -whatever lessons he might need help with...between the QM, the Patrol QMs and the grumpy old guy these lesson usually "take". Like all boy led efforts...equipment "troop/scout" ownership issues take way more work than the alternatives...Teaching them to be responcible is much more time consuming that just letting the parents deal with juniors wet tent. And face it most boys who own a nice tent usually are willing to "leave it" to dad to take care of...at least until dad tires of the game...And now days we see a lot of dads...still picking up after junior long after he started high school. Finding and training QMs is a whole ''nother bag o worms... Troop tents can lead to unit pride, (particularly with new/ younger boys), can help the troop offer high quality outdoor experiences, and even provide a "level" playing field for boys coming from families unable or just unwilling to invest in good equipment. I think they make good sense. That said, I have seen troops with heavy troop tents (poly floors, etc) that can not backpack with troop gear...so it is always wise to investigate, hash out what you are doing, what you want to be doing in the future and then make the best judgement you can in order to get the best bang for your buck... AvidSM...boy dragging tent...HE should spend several afternoons or even meeting nights patching bags and repairing gear...until he gets it! Like all things respect for equipment has to be taught and re-taught! Your scouts have to be inculcated with the knowledge that they are borrowing tents from past and future scouts...if they don''t take care of the gear- future scouts pay the price...(and of course, being stupid does have a price...they get to work with grumpy people instead of playing video games). We now have 15 Eurekas that are 7 years old! and 6 more that are 5 years old. Repaired lots of bags, patched a few tent flys and doors, even replaced a few poles and bags but the gear is still good looking and in great working order. This is with 12 or more multi-night camps each year, at least 7 week-long canoe trips (annual event) and many, many small patrol camps...but it is a lot of work....a lot of nagging, and a lot of coffee! It can work... Anarchist

First to John-in-KC Horse feathers to your horse hockey...;>) You are playing at semantics ...(and loosing I might add) "To Volunteer" only means you have taken a JOB without pay, perhaps for some private motive (you get to choose here) but you have still taken a job...yes a J O B. By volunteerism one does not become a minor saint nor does one have claim to any golden throne but as a volunteer you do make a committment to do the necessary work...and you also get the worms with the apple...and since this is not a perfect world you should expect lots of worms... And of course, I could play the "Volunteers - you get what you pay for" card but that would be just for grins, now wouldn''t it. Sure Volunteers are wonderful folks (we truely are) but taking the position of "someone refusing to take training because the district or council can''t afford simply wonderful Dale Carnagie (sp its late) type instructors" and so district or council doesn''t treat volunteers well is pure bunk...;>)(and if they are gonna take their kids and go home- please do?) Most scout training, nationwide, unfortunately is done by volunteers...and gosh, "stuff happens", don''t you know. For instance, I took a bunch of folks to scoutmaster fundamentals a few months ago to get some new troop adults "trained", (sat through the course again so they would have a friendly (ha!) face in the room)...heck I even paid the course fee again cause I am such a wonderful guy...Unfortunately, the scheduled trainer had an emergency and at the last minute (literally the night before) a new instructor was roped into doing the training...He was unfamiliar with the class set up the video equipment didn''t work right (there was a special way the gear had to be coaxed into action). Was it that volunteers fault that he was pushed into the fray at the last minute because another man had his back broken in an accident? Hardly. Should everyone have thrown up their hands and left due to a poor trainer...should they decline to take further training...please, give me a break! Face it, as you already know, most of us volunteers start this journey at least somewhat selfishly (in my case because I wanted a great program for my two sons...and I knew I could help deliver it) rather than from purely altruistic motives (all saints please raise your hands- Michael is handing out halos). And while I cherish Volunteers, unless you live in "never-never land" you do the best with what you have and strive to make each year a little better. Sorry if you feel I stepped on Volunteerism toes. Lisabob, I appreciate your position and fine words...I love teachers, feel they literally saved my life, married one infact and got a certificate myself 30 some years ago though I never used it...And while, as you say, teaching is not rocket science (it is far more difficult to do well) perhaps being so close to education you under estimate how difficult it is to find the hundreds of volunteer instructors (or even paid staff) with the spark, literally, the gift to excite others. True teachers are rare. And expecting BSA to provide more than most of the schools and universities in this county can provide does seems...I am sorry to say, like an unreasonable expectation. And this doesn''t even allow nor cover for instructor burn-out because replacements are not constantly fed into the system to relieve even the best instructors and the material also tends to be pretty dry..at least for most folks... Perhaps I was trained poorly by professors who expected me to meet them more than half way...professors and teachers who asked more questions than they gave answers? Perhaps I am truely a dinosaur. But when I made the committment to help my sons troop I undertook to learn all I could, by myself if necessary, to get the JOB done. And finally, here is a real bank shot of an arguement...consider if you will, our scout parents are not the classic volunteers...they are taking benefits from the program they volunteer to be a part of (unless you think the program in which their kids are participating has no value) One could even say our "volunteers" do not even have completely "clean" hands...They won''t pay the freight to have lively, good, engaging paid instuctors...and so they refuse the training from lack luster volunteers...hummm....How''s that for a wrinkle?(just gets better and better). Both of my sons are in college now and I am slowly winding down my scouting career. But I take training; at the very least the basics for troop level activity as very important stuff...important enough to learn on our own if need be...even though the coffee always tastes better around the campfire... Anarchist

I love the idea... In our Troop ALL ASMs and of course the SM have all taken the basics Youth protection, SM fundamentals, Outdoors Safety afloat/ safe swim defense trainng or they are not given a patch...Troop not council policy. Many also have CPR certs, and back counrty First Aid classes. Almost all of our committee folks are also district trained, and many are cross-trained as SM/ASMs with outdoor leader training. Gonna wear the uniform? Then you''re gonna know what it is about... As far as the "push back"...that''s where you really find out who is "with you" or who just wants to run a camping club called boy scouts... As to the point of dealing with poor trainers...Its a "Bogus" excuse...and I would respond the same way I do with my sons when they "don''t like a professor"...or the give the "prof is a jerk" speach... Get a life, your "job" is to learn the material no matter how poor the "teacher" is. Are you an intelligent adult or do you want to be thought of as a bottle-fed infant with a soiled diaper? Sure its more work and effort to dig out the info when you think the teacher is a twit, but Life is not always what we would like it to be...if you have been given broken eggs - make an omelet! And folks none of this is rocket science...Like Scouting itself, with the proper materials... this stuff could be self-taught (if you had to). So sit through the classes and study hard! It''s and investment in the future and way more important than a few weekends and your impressions of poor trainers... Anarchist

Don''t you know that its always the scouters fault for not nursing a scout through at the last minute to Eagle...never the scouts fault...:>) That said, If the young man still desires to join I would have a full blown BoR outside of a normal troop meeting night...complete with your CC and the SM on the side. I would make it a real job interview...If he can not answer questions such as "Why should the troop expend energy and assets on him?"... (after all he was the one who said he was "done with Scouting"), Or "What (efforts, energy and time) will he bring to the "table" (troop)" if your committee allows him to join...If it is, as I suspect really about punching his ticket and filling out a line on his college resume it should become fairly clear...If when you ask him about is readiness to attend meetings and campouts you get "yes, buts" or other evasions I would not waste any more time. If he does not commit to doing more than just working on his Eagle requiremnts I would hand him back his application and suggest he find another troop...At this stage you are not adding to his requirements after all -he is not one of your scouts. And assuming that you only have a finite amount of time and energy; he is, after all, asking that you "take away" from the others in the troop...for his needs...he should be willing to pay it back...right? In the grand picture of things, I have come to see the whole process as using your troop assets where they can do the most good for the most boys...It is probably wrong (and others here will tell me so) but I no longer feel an obligation to go through the work and effort for "fakes, frauds and lost souls", when there are plenty of hard working scouts who need, appriciate and deserve my time and attention. must be getting old... Anarchist

Slouchhat, Public transport in the U.S. is primarily a "city" thing. Outside of the cities, trains are mostly set up for freight (US policy makers deciding decades ago that we (citizens) couldn''t afford a top-notch passenger train service. When I was a scout in the days of the wooly mammoth, our church supplied an old school bus which could carry the whole troop to events...it was great and we could even drop scouts off at their front doors on Sunday Afternoon...NOw days with Federal and state passenger vehicle drivers licenses, multiple insurance policies and disengaged Charter Organizations such a boon is nearly unheard of. Thusly parents must be involved... Hope we helped... anarchist

CA_Scouter, I''m with Hunt on this one...almost any project can be written up to make it sound like another group (COR in this case) is benefitting, but in the end the "smell test" for me would be that this work will be for the troop to use primarily and the F.D. should they want to...I have no issue with Eagle Projects benefitting the COR...but this seems like a "troop first" project...worthy for that purpose but "iffy" for an eagle project! my two cents Anarchist

to me it sounds like packsaddle wins the prize, though at 1 and 1/2 inches he sounds like he needs more grasshoppers and horse flys...underfed, don''t cha know...Would guess you have an average speciman of "Lycosa tarentula"...a wolf spider to most of us...BIG HARRY Tarantulas from the south west and South America are often kept as pets and are actually quite fragile...easily injured. Spiders are cool, and beneficial... pick up a few books at the local library...Like snakes, most folks'' "fear" is totally unjustified...healthy respect, perhaps, but not fear...Spiders just want to eat bugs and procreate...like a lot of folks I know...;>) Anarchist

Slouchhat, (thought ouly us southerners wore slouch hats?) Adult participation varies from troop to troop. In ours we have 47 registered scouts (''bout 42 really considered active) we alo have 12 registered and trained ASMs and 12 registered and trained Committee members-several of whom are also cross-trained as SM/ASMs. Most Camps we have 5-10 Adults. They are generally the transport for our scouts. On any given "troop trip" (we have several patrol only weekends in our program)...we may be traveling two to three hours from home (one way). We need car/truck seats for 30-40 boys...Any way you slice it that could easily mean 10+ vehicles and it would be plain "stupid" to ask parents to travel 9-12 hours per weekend JUST as transport...so they stay, camp and make their own fun. Generally adults unless they are part of the active program for the weekend busy themselves with Adult camp/kitchen duty...like making the coffee disappear...We set a separate camp off to the side of the troop camp...scouts must request permission to enter the adult camp, and like-wise, most adults must request permission to enter scout camp sites (that alone keeps many adults out of the wat...who want to ask a kid for permission to enter or even cross over a camp site?) Occaisionally committee members sit BORs for the scouts. We do not let parents "hover"...We find work for them and when in doubt; pull out the committee challenge "game" (which fits neatly behind my truck''s rear seat) and start training... Last weekend we had a flat water canoe training exercise, fishing classes and open water rescue training for the troop. The newer boys were learning the facts of life in canoes...At the same time one of the Adult leaders was giving flat water canoe lessons to "newer" adults...After all, we have to train our own replacements to keep the troop healthy ...and not everyone knows which end of a canoe points down river! Adults are resources, when needed they become part of the weekend plan; when not needed they drink coffee and make great meals. At our shakedown camps for the new scout patrols, (and the camp most "newbie" parents want to attend...cause they have separation issues), we don''t let them hover...the SM takes all new parents in camp off to the side (again adult campsite) and they do almost exactly what their kids do including planing meals, shopping trip exercises, knots, fire building, toten chip and buddy system training...its a hoot! And after that weekend, many parents really start to understand what the program is striving for. On our truely "family camps" like our annual Asseteague Island encampment, we include family in the whole "shebang"! They can surf fish, do the nature hikes with the scouts, looking for Sika deer and wild ponies or just sit on the beach and watch "lazy" kids dig "miles of trenches"...and drink coffee.... Only at meal time and patrol time do the parents have to "not hover" and return to the adult camp...however we find most stop "hovering" when they see the beach... A small troop might get away with two or three leaders per event but as the troop grows it becomes impractical...that is, if you want to offer more than the same ol''trips to your local campground...or you can keep the main part of your program centered around patrol only activities...then two adults works out fine... hope it helps Anarchist(This message has been edited by anarchist)