anarchist

Thanks EagleInKY, pretty much what I was able to find in my search...you would think BSA would put more thought into a booklet to encourage/sell/educate CO's. From what I have seen over the years (and see in this thread), most troops run their own show completely with little or no input/interest/assistance from the CO's. a lttle paper work here and there...Paper CO's? I know ours did not want to even take title to our trailer (at no out-of-pocket cost)...they didn't want their insurance rate to go up...such support!

Fotoscout, I doubt many 'missed' the scale...most seeemed to feel their CO's were MIA. NOT MEANING TO HI-JACK this thread...but is there a good BSA publication on the responsibilties of a CO vs the responsibilities of the troop to the CO???? I checked National, our council and district web sites and got a big "0". Maybe we need to gently re-educate our CO's...

hi guys! one of the best things we did as a troop years ago was purchase the JLTC package from BSA supply. No not only do we send scouts we do an 'in house' at the start of every year for every boy in the troop who has a POR AND any boy who the SM/ASM corp sees as a 'potential' leader. We cycle 30% of the troop through each year...Part of the 'coolness' of this approach is not only 'training' boys (an ASM and I, a lowly CM, started this several years ago) but allowing a few adult leaders to 'ride along' and in the process retrain them or start most of them re-thinking (at least) what the real program is all about! We now have an entire corp of trained/retrained ASM's.... can't wait to get a copy of the new stuff! (not bad for an anarchist!)

Pack - Elementary School (actually the pricipal) a good guy but only supplies meeting space and signs paperwork...PTA used to do it but stopped... Score- 2 Troop - United Methodist Church - In name only- they talk a good game- then complain about the boys leaving marks on the floor (shoe scuffs),not putting back kiddie chairs in the exactly right space, leaving lights on (when several other groups use the facility), give us no support, refused to 'title' our trailer-didn't want liablity and then moved a rent paying daycare operation into the rooms we used, filled them with toys and kiddie furniture and still can't understand why we are looking for a new CO... score- negative 3

KoreaScouter...you left out us anarchists! anyway BW comeback...remember: it is only those who are right on one side and folks that agree with me on the other!

Eagle 96 First, remember that in most troops you need program for all levels...maybe your older scouts are tired of the "same old, same old!" Sometimes, I can't say I blame them. Some camps/camporees should be expected to 'be' for the boys who 'want to go or need to go'...usually the newer scouts...don't sweat it a lot. But when planning with your PLC adults need to remember; sometimes it is not who is smarter or better or bigger...but really, who is most 'sneakie'. We found out a long time ago that with lots of 'new PLC's and 'planning, we had to "lead them to the water"...and then hold their darned heads in it 'til they drank...or drowned! Not really, but we did find that if you JUST ASK A NEW PLC WHAT THEY WANT...you get a lot of 'don't knows' and 'fun stuff' answers but little real meat and potatos... But if the adult leadership works out a bucket load of activity options (Adult Troop Planning) and then (this is where the sneakie part comes in)'targets' the boys you think might like the different activities ( Jimmy with canoeing, Mike with first aid, Sam for an 'aviation' trek and Robbie for LNT, etc. ) with 'suggestions' or you might 'run into a scout' and ..."hey bud, I just heard about...sounds awesome doesn't it?...you think the PLC might be interested it trying it? Gosh, if you like it that much, why don't you put it on the table at the next meeting???" then let nature take it's course...We have found after 'feeding' the boys a few ideas (gently) before long, the Scouts see that they can 'come up with' an idea and a plan' and more importantly; that the Adults don't 'step' on their planning out of had we support it! (unless it's a campout to Hawaii with dad footing the bill) And before long, they are doing it themselves. Like MANY have said you do not have to go to CAMPOREES...If they don't meet expectations...find a better way to invest the boys scouting experience...After SAYING THAT I WANT TO CHALLENGE you and your scouts...If you think of a camporee program you would like to see...Have your troop "ADOPT" the program and offer to run the camporee for a future date... it will put a good opportunity in front of your older scouts to organize and operate a district event...(they are not required, necessarily, to do the program teaching if they do not have the skill sets or talent to succeed, but they do need to line up the necessary 'talent'...this can be a year long project and can be extremely rewarding...particularly if it requires the scouts to aquire new skill sets to run the show! As to "ordinary campouts"...makeeach one less about work and more about fun and activity. Pioneering...have a race to build two or three projects (say a small bridge, a crain and table then have a race to carry a bucket of water across the bridge cup by cup, use the crain to move the bucket to the table and a scout then uses the waterbucket to 'douse' the SM if they win the race!)..for each patrol...don't want to get wet? give a prize...or take a pie in the face etc. Make it fun and they will come (most any way!)

"a totally volunteer system"...??? Please try to remember the "law of unintended consequences"...CO's will want certified units. Then you have the real 'leader material' DL's ,CM's etc. wanting their sons in certified units and so won't join a troubled troop...thus sucking the chance of change out of the programs...and not necessarily killing that program...just 'institutionalizing' it's leadership structure with a continum of renegade leaders. Certified troops will want other troops certification pulled cause 'they don't do it right".....then the troop police come..... and for "commissioners with real power"? aren't we just looking for moving twits up the line...who does more damage; a twit as a cub master/ troop master (note lower case) or a twit with 'real power' as a commissioner? Thank you, but I would rather keep power decentralized... 'damage' is done to fewer boys. And finally, I would like to return to a line of so called 'thought' that I have brought up before... We need not always jump to the conclusion that every problem or twit we 'hear' about in these forums is/are accurate discriptions of the situations or that we ever get the whole story and background data... What do you say to the 'twit' that has a boy in scouts and steps up to the bar to be an SM,(cause no one else will?) and then can't make the 'BSA way' work...either the troop elects the 'wrong' leaders, (he is not skilled enough to teach the 'wrong' leaders to be leaders) The boys can't be motivated to do it right, CO and parents don't support...but he is trying...and 'settles' into a 'system' that works for most of the current boys and families? Maybe what 'works' it seems is the way he remembers scouting??? Some may be distressed that it is not the 'BSA way', but is the program then not worth anything? Would the boys be better served to simply not have a scouting opportunity... Gosh, there are whole volumes of 'what if's' and 'renegade twits' that we can only seem to condemn ...I wonder if, in many of these cases, we would rather see no scouting program at all rather than a 'non- by the book' program??? Folks, I speak from experience here...many moons ago my guys joined a troop (our lil' county pack was the natural feeder to this troop). It was apparent soon after, that the troop was 'SM led' even though the committee said otherwise....the program had an "older boy only" slant and the older boys while friendly and great kids, where off in their own world when it came to young scouts (unless they needed eagle project labor). Several of the new dads suffered in moderate silence for a year to try to change the whole program...At several points we were seriously looking at starting a new troop...and sucking the life blood out of the existing troop, Two of us were Cub Master and ACM of the 'feeder pack' at that time . If there had been certified troops this one would not have made certifcation...certified eagle mill, maybe... but not certified troop! Many of the current (real world now)leaders of the Troop would not be here today they would have gone to a 'certified' program...less hassle up front. Instead we infitrated the leadership, started offering more program, more structure, NSP... all to the younger scouts in a parallel sort of program, inviting, but not telling any of the old guard to come along....some did, some just faded away. One thing I can tell you is that if the old program had been radically changed (forced) three or four boys who eventually earned Eagle would have dropped out...They liked the old ways and never did embrace the 'new troop'. OGE...they did what the BSA manuals told them to do...fulfilled the requirements... got their ranks and left... I am glad they got their Eagles (it would have beeen terribly wrong to change the rules on them at the end) but their program was not the true 'BSA way'...are they less 'Eagles'? If the older leadership hadn't offered some kind of program...these boys would have had no program at all...and no Eagles...I believe in fighting the good fight, but I also believe that we can not change the whole scouting world...and like government...BSA can sometime do more harm than good with paper work and rules...so 'be careful what you ask for'is always a good caution. Let us all foster the best programs we can...and help others...but be cautious in looking 'down' at the twits...it may just be our own reflections... thusly ... anarchist

Troop trailer... BIG BRIGHT TROOP IDENTIFICATION, BSA LOGO and TROOP CO and LOCATION! BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA, 'emblem', troop ZZZZ', 'west some town', 'some state'! BIG and Proud! That said, then hide it!...If you can not secure the trailer where vandals can't get it...(ie. no 'on street parking'), IT WILL EVENTUALLY GET TRASHED, BROKEN INTO OR STOLEN! Sad to say but truer than not. We tried leaving it in the well-lit lot of our CO (a church); one paint job later it is now at a leaders house, in the country next to his garage, nearly a mile off the road...but safe...sure looks great roll'n down the road though!

Again...it seems like a communications problem..."amouse" says SM was 'going to do Cooking MB"...perhaps (?) as part of his troop meeting program...which is discouraged (greatly) in many councils...(again right or wrong!?!). Many feel that troop meetings are for training and planning of/for upcoming activities and that merit badges are 'extra' outside the troop/meeting endeavors. Many SM's, CC's and people at council offices feel MB's should not be troop activities at all! MB's should be worked on in small groups or individually (or by "2's" with youth protection and two deep etc.). Perhaps the SM told his plan to a 'drone' at council and was given a flat response, without any backup reasoning ). Keeping in mind that some well meaning volunteers at council offices 'hear' only parts of 'proper' answers 'during training' and outside, ongoing discussions... but then start 'distributing' what they heard as policy, believe me, just because someone says 'it is a rule' doesn't mean they are correct!Research is always inorder! Council+New troop+new Scout Master+ new scout... = lots of chances for info to go goofy there. A quick call by parents to council(or email so you have answer in writing) should help clear this up...probably not 'sinister' just short-circuited info... "amouse", what merit badge do you want to work on??? Here is an exercise...first get the requirements for this merit badge Buy the book... or go online...(remember this is just an intelectual exercise ...you are not 'officially' working on the badge...yet)...and make your own 'plan' to see which of the requirements you can do... or have done before. Look at the advancement sign-offs you have accomplished and those you will be working on towards second and first class ranks...are any similar? Will any 'count' towards the merit badge skills? Then look at your troop's program calendar for the next year...which of the activities can be used for that badge...(hummm, if none seem to fit(?)...can you think of a way to help 'plan' the activities and add 'fun stuff' in order to accomplish a task or two that will help you towards your merit badge? If so make a suggestion to your partol leader, the SPL and the SM!) You now have the start of a plan to discuss with your merit badge counselor! AND after your answer from council...you should be ready to ask the SM for a blue card... Also, 'amouse', check the district and council websites for merit badge 'days' held (usually in winter)usually at some church or school site...sort of like a seminar. Many, many merit badges can be earned by 'signing up' pay a few dollars for registration and getting your parents to spend a day 'outside' of your council or district at 'open' merit badge classes. Web sites are great for getting this information. good luck and good scouting! anarchist

Boys!... boys! Try to remember who the program is for...not us old fat guys...It is for the scouts and whether or not we think we 'can' do it, the question is should we...for our own reasons (good or ill) chance screwing it up for a crew by keeling over dead on them??? Last year, I had to 'pass' on a High Adventure Camp. I had two son attending and I REALLY WANTED TO GO! (since my Big "C" surgery, My doc won't sign me off on a Class III Phys). Every adult on the trip said I could have 'handled it'...And even though I could probably find a 'doc' out there, somewhere, who would 'sign off', even the smallest chance that I would/could ruin eight young men's summer was more than this 'osfg' (old slightly fat guy) could risk. Like some others said... in the high adventure treks...the heart attacks are almost always adult leaders, not the kids...so, my feeling is, as my boss loves to say, "If ya want to die...do it on your own time". The one (maybe) exception, I could see, would be if you routinely participated in 'higher altitude' treks...say 5 or 6 times a year, or more... maybe, then, you would have an argument....but if it is once a decade or once in a 'recent' life-time adventure...do it on your own time...don't chance giving the scouts a life-time memory no one would want... huffing and puffing along anarchist

We do 'it' once a year in April, after all of our N.S. Patrols are set up at a troop/Family meeting ALL of our SCOUTS sit through it with the SM/ASM corps, while upstairs, the N.S. parents and others are indoctrinated and hopefully hog-tied into helping with various Troop activities. WE ALSO require thr Troop Committee to sit through it once a year and all leaders do a youth protection training course annually. VHS and DVD's are available to check out year round. The troop has a leader training coordinator who makes sure we all renew training and gives us a heads up when additional training classes are offered. have fun!

OGE...you know I love your depth of knowledge... but I see in your 'Modest proposal' the formation of the "TROOP POLICE" and like others in this thread have said a one size fits all template. Lets look at your 'renegades'...are all of them bad? I don't see it, some maybe truely bad but most are just different. So what if they don't offer a gold plated 'BSA -by-the-book program'...they are giving 'some' scouting to 'some' boys...aren't they? If their programs don't meet a need they will die...its that simple...capitalism is the American way.(?) Usually, the case is (unfortunately) they (the renegades) like 'their' program and they are going to do it 'their' way, like it or not...but you know, OGE...no one else in their 'area' has the brass to take over the 'renegade program' or offer a competing 'troop' that may or may not survive against the renegades program... And if the new "TROOP POLICE" say "our way. or the highway"...guess what? A true renegade is going to tell you just where to stuff 'it'. I write this (knowing that our troop is striving hard to do it the BSA way) but thinking about a small troop in which a long time friend's son is a member. I have seen them at a few District events and most of the boys can 'camp circles' around other troops! Most of their boys advance and earn buckets of merit badges and yes, some times I seem to hear martial music in the background when the SM or SPL 'bark' out an order. They do not follow 'boy led' or NSP program to the extend you (or I) would like. Many boys (or their parents) do not 'fit in' with this small troop and relocate to another troop or drop out of scouting (sad)...but the boys who are there will walk through fire for their SPL or SM. Would I like to see them follow the 'rules'- yes! Would I rather see that troop disbanded or be labled 'officially' a renegade unit? ABSOLUTELY NOT! And in the end, if BSA started a "Certification" program, you and I both know the Lawyers would soon move in and the 'TROOP POLICE' would soon become the "STORM TROOP POLICE": for the sake of BSA all troops would have to be certified...period! OGE-Nice thought, but just keep chipping away one unit/outfit at a time. One size fits all will just lead to more boys leaving scouting. my 2 cents anarchist

OGE...BTW... don't wear no stinking red berets.... amouse appears to be misunderstanding something... it simply can't be council policy. Virtually every council summer camp operates a "Brown-Sea" program to load new scouts up on merit badges and advancement opportunities (towards first class)! Perhaps, the SM was discouraging spending time on merit badges that could/should be used for advancement goals. Or perhaps 'a mouse' is looking to tackle merit badges SM feels should wait a bit (not necessarily correct...but still a SM's program "fact of life"). In our troop we know that the Brown-sea program almost always leads to a swimming merit badge (and others), so the time (March to July) can be better used on other areas of scout-craft...(unless we know swimming will present a major problem for our 'scout' at camp)... or perhaps 'amouse' is pushing the envelope with this SM and for what ever reason SM thinks the boy needs to slow down or redirect his energies...Many of our 'new scouts' want to jump in with both feet and then find it hard to advance and do merit badges and that equals frustration and lots of started but not finished blue cards...We offer a strong first year to first class program and our latest crop of New scouts (30 boys) about 75% are on schedule to be first class by March/April of '05...and almost every boy has three to seven merit badges... It's hard to say, but it seems like most of the posters have concluded that the council or SM are "WRONG"...go slow guys...remember the 'whisper a message game'...you whisper a phrase/message to one person who passes it down the line...almost never gets to the end "correctly"... what is said is not always what is heard! Perhaps amouse needs to talk to his SPL and has his parents conference with the SM if the matter can't be cleared up...but we can't assume that the Council or SM are wrong on the face of this...only that amouse thinks they are giving out incorrect or unfair(?)information. I would look at the last sentence of the first amouse post...interesting conclusion..no?

Our district has three camporees each year- Fall, Winter (klondike-even without snow), and Spring. Planning and themes are important...First Aid, Leave No Trace, Air flight, Cooking, Canoes/Water base, Mountain man, and Orienteering, Search and Rescue and Teamwork, are all topics we have seen in our region. Success usually revolves around good planning/planner and communication to the troops in the district... It also really requires the planners to give up a few days for 'on the ground operational details'. Making sure the site viable before you book it, lining up the necessary help ...in advance, rather than just drafting participants to 'help-out', setting up check-in and basic infrastructure...in advance, assigning troop campsites...in advance rather than winging it, (being ready on-site for the first arrivals) requires, maybe taking a day off (I know it hurts but...) and finally with a large bit of luck thrown in for good measure it might go off well. These 'events' are usually on the "charts", in our district, for the comming year by the 'end' of our scouting year (summer camp -though the year never really ends ...does it?) or right after, to allow troops to start planning their calendars (though it is not always in time). Some times conflict do arise and participation suffers unless troop get flexible. I agree that it becomes almost a full time job and like all jobs/projects, sometimes it fails due to a less than stellar planning/execution effort. Good topic, greating planning and some 'seat of the pants' operational creativity can make these things absolutely great...leaving the event up to luck and 'quick thinking' means less success or even failure. Are three - too many? Not really. One per quarter means; one month per quarter the troop needs to plan 'around' district...so you only have one outdoor troop activity that month...no biggie...what? you only plan one campout per month...tisk, tisk, tisk! If these things are done well our boys talk about them for weeks... (months?) And boy do they talk about the 'less than successful' camporees! A scary thing to think about..all you district types listen up... the kids know who the camporee planner(s) is/are...by name! They read the newsletters and they start wanting to avoid events planned by the 'parties concerned'. It is scary sometimes to listen at PLC when they hear that so and so is doing the first aid camporee this year...and he 'blew it' on the scout craft camporee two years ago 'even the campfire was a flop'...So, lets go camping on our own that weekend,,,anywhere but the camporee...or 'WOW! Mr. wonderful did that awesome camporee at the Airfield in 2002 and he is doing "On the Water" this Spring?....LETS GO!' Camporees aren't dead...just some of us planners seem to be.... good scouting!

Just Asking... my Webes still talk about the plaque I did for them and it took a only a couple of evenings to do for seven boys. In their last couple of meetings I had each Webe II 'craft' an arrow (BSA catalogue/scout shop) under the guise that we were going to give it to their parents after crossover. Now, rather than use the plastic point supplied with the kit I had a friend ship me real stone points...bit 'classier' than colored plastic. Local craft store supplied plaques, (I used ones that had rather fancy routed edges and were roughly rectangular shaped) stain golden oak (or whatever suits you) and then I drilled a 1/4 inch hole, near the bottom, (centered), and put a small piece of stained 1/4 inch dowling into it. Next procure round wooden balls 2-21/2 inch diameter (craft stor again) and drill dowel sized hole into 'back' (centered) of wooden ball this becomes the sun symbol in the "arrow of light" by drilling a series of seven small holes around the upper circumference (see AoL picture) and using a few small diameter brass rods cut in appropiate small lengths to 'make' the sun rays...(shortest pointing up, progressively longer as you move 'out')place brass rod pieces in holes with little glue/epoxy and paint wooden ball brass/gold color or stain 'golden' oak and you have the 'sun'. Finally, the arrow will go above the 'SUN' on the plaque...bend two small pieces of the remaining brass rod (for each plaque)into "U's" just large enough to 'hold' the arrow shaft and extend far enough behind the arrow (1/4-1/2 inch) into the plaque... sort of like staples...and drill two (sets) of appropriately spaced holes for these "brass staples" in order to balance, hold and keep the arrow attached to the plaque. It sounds harder than it is...but it looks really cool... and I have been told most of the boys still have them hanging on their walls I also gave each boy a small medicine bag containing a small 'lucky stone' (the earth and our foundation) a very small feather (future adventures...supplied by one of our barn cats) and a large pinch of fire ashes in a small plastic vial (for remembering the good times we had...from our last Webelos 2 campfire)kind of sentimental but powerful... good luck...and thank you for your efforts in scouting!

Good post OAK TREE! We don't sign off on 'multiple cook events' for the 1st Class, the boy can and should have a large number of assistannt to 'direct' it's good practice...and if they know that later they are gonna be in the 'kitchen patrol' for the same purpose they are usually kinder and more thoughtful to the "help" But each boy has to be the lead cook for three meals...no sharing of credit. But for gosh sakes! why do we adult leaders get sucked into a 'troop campouts' mentality....We need to be doing lots of extra patrol camps...You can usually do more program work, have more adventures and do way more fun things as patrols than you can as a troop. Hikes, canoe trips, climbing activities, caving (for older guys)... almost any activity you can think of is better by the patrol... Cooking- first class- start early have a couple of patrol camps in addition to the troop schedule camping and bang! ...three to six months later its done. We start doing these type of events as soon as they are well along towards being "tinderfeets"....if you limit it to troop camps you really need to get active and creative... nine boys equal nine monthly events. OR... A new scout patrol of 9 boys makes two patrol camps and a troop camp, split as if they were two patrols...and you make it a contest SM and ASM's get to sample at adult kitchen without knowing who cooked...its great the boys really work and the SPL loves orchestrating these things and six boys get sign offs in one month...adult intensive? yes? but loads of fun! NSP system with good ASM's can really be used by a creative (some say sick) mind to train a boat load of boys as well as finding lots of reasons to spend lots of time in the woods.

we really beat up our eagle candidates.... our Eagle Advisor (an ASM) first 'instucts and advises' the boy to make it good! a BOR type group of committee members (usually 3) make the guy do a presentation and "defense" and then the poor kid has to present to the committee at a regular committee meeting...He then (if he survives), (just joking) presents to the District coordinator...few day later its usually approved....Usually by the time it gets to district there are no questions left.... In reality we are trying to have enough 'seasoned eyes' look over things so we can show the "lad" support and make him really think it through before he goes to district. It helps to have a good, well district intergrated, Eagle Adviser (not me).

Packsaddle if you don't mind me jumping in several water proofing products (water based polyureathanes are sold by good outfitters. If the old tent has peeling material be sure to coat the otherside...not the side with the peeling material (iusually old polymers of varying types) if it is the floor that sould not be a big appearance problem... A better solution (from my experience) is not to worry about the floor...make a 'ground cloth' from 6 mil Poly and cut so it slopes up about 4-6 inches up th walls and place it INSIDE the tent...no seams, four pieces of duct tape can be used to pull the corners tighter and make a solid 'bathtub', absolutely water proof and does better than any chemical you can put on nylon...give it a try...if you want to keep the floor 'underside' clean, you can use an old sheet, really(it lets water 'perc' through - not up) or another sheet of 6 mil. my 2 cents anarchist ps... was not my 'original' idea..got this out of a book 10-12 years ago...one of the best 'bad weather tips I ever got!

UUUUUMMMMM FOOOOOOOD! 1. Adults eat at adult kitchen...and they eat anything they darn well want! 2. Scouts can too, at their own kitchen, and only if they all (not mom and dad) come up with the extra money...we have general guideline of $15 per scout per weekend or less and the parents are told this at each parent meeting and it is in the parent info package. Parents going along for the shopping trip are reminder of the money thing and that they are not there to do the shopping...that is the scouts job. Generally scouts eat for $12-$15 per weekend...and they can eat well for that. Patrols develop menus and their 'work/duty details/rosters, make shopping lists, collect money (in advance-don't pay don't play) and explain it all to an ASM. They generally do well after a few minor mis-fires...Each patrol aways has PB&J for 'emergencies' ...and remember no one ever starved on a weekend campout. Most are not interested in the extra time to do the elaborate and expensive meals. That time honored scout custom of 'mooching' is not simply permitted from the adult kitchen (and chief adult cook lets all new parents know...scouts eat with scouts, period...)only two exceptions SPL and ASPL can eat with the adults if they would like... (and They Always Do) . The ASM's also redirect the younger scouts inclination for burgers and dogs...towards stews, roasts, and/or one pot meals. D.O. cooking is really encouraged unless time is a problem (district camporees etc). By the third year most of our scouts can cook along side most of the adults...when they really want to, in any case. We also have an annual Scout Master challenge cooking contest with a really nice prize held at a community picnic event. This demonstration 'camp' cooking event really excites a lot of our scouts... and the meals produced are truely fine!

easy solution?...quiet talk with driver about example and liability to the CO. Give him a chance...if there is an attitude problem.... recruit a new driver and let 'offender' think about it while only transporting his son... That said, two years ago I was riding in backseat of a vehicle returning from a ski weekend and this (ASM)driver got two speeding tickets within seven miles of each other...(WEST by god Virginia -State Trooper and then a local officer). The recorded ticket speed was less than five miles above limit (while going down steep grades) for each citation...and trust me the driver was really watching after the first ticket...so it is hard to be too tough without the particilars.

and I thought we were the only stakeless souls out there... Semper Par., we go through tons of pins every year...tents rain flys...doesn't matter they are digested and left in cat holes throughout the east..In committee We have discussed a 'pin charge' of what ever replacement cost was..which I felt was fair.but it did not go anywhere...(nixed by the CC). The only thing that works is checking in the pin/stake bag separate from the tent then the QM places the pin bag into the tent bag...(royal pain-labor/time intensive)) and when the adult equipment guy (QM mentor) is not on a campout or when the QM is AWOL (just joking) the system returns to chaos...and lost pins...and we still have boys say they didn't have all the pins when they set up (lots of our camps start after dark on Friday nights so setup can get hectic)we are still looking for a good solution... With the dining/Rain Flys we tried to maintain separate pin bags...issue tarp, then issue pin/line bags and when QM or Equipment guys is not present...hole bags sets vaporize... This scouting-school-year(September to December so far) we have spent $34.00 on pins... not a lot but still ridiculous... Currently we have complete sets in each tent/tarp...and we are now keeping the checkout sheet from each campout so when a tent is issued with no pins we can try to track the last user...bet it will cost another $30-40 between now and summercamp...but CC won't hear of charging for lost pins... Only thing that works is ..the 'show me' technique...at check in they show me or the QM they have their 10 pins/stakes ....good luck

Troop Tent wise, since I don't hike anymore (can't keep up with the guys after they cut a lung loose) we are using Eureka Timberline 2XT's (21 of them) and Timberline 4XT's. (8 of these) For hikes the scouts can use their own tents or 'break up' a 2-XT tent (tent body with one scout poles, fly and ground cloth with his buddy)... Usually, our scouts use troop tents, they now love looking like a unit. We also use 6mil plastic as ground cloths and on hikes we encourage the 'ground cloth' be installed inside the tent not under it. When 'wet sleeping bags' are a true potential 'long term' problem I find the waterproof plastic is better acting as a 'boat' (tucked up the side walls of the tent a bit)at preventing water from oozing up from the floors... or down the sidewall seams...and it seems to work really well. When I hiked, I used a tarp (first canvas then high tech nylon), a ground cloth and a mesquito net...Now most of my travel camping is by Canoe and I use my own Timberline 4XT... (sometimes I even allow another Scouter to share it (though my snoring is said to keep the bears away) We have found that with proper scout training (in set-up and take-down and using both hands to work zippers) and good QM-troop care (not allowing wet tents to be 'turned in'), these tents are good for many years. We have also found Eureka very good about standing behind their product if there is a problem. And having a 'uniform tent style allows for keeping on hand readily usable spare parts as well as the ability to canibalizing tents in an 'emergency'. No doubt there are probably better tents out there (?) but we think our 'system' works! anarchist

box heading your way tomorrow... waiting for a ladies leader shirt that should be dropped at our troop meeting tonight.

interesting... first to FSCOUTER...While NO Cub should carry a sheath knife, Missymoose71 did not say that the tiger or his dad ever misused the knives...so your comment about 'boys and the knife spending more time out of the sheath' was both wrong and gratuitous...(example - I have guns...'boys being boys...they will play with my guns!?!'... both my sons were taught gun safety and have never touched a weapon without permission...so much for boys...). that said...If this is truely a problem, the Pack should send out several messages to all the parents that knives are unwelcome at activities...Scouts do not carry them ever(?) and if the are brought to activities by scouts the group leaders will ask that they be left behind or locked away in a vehicle. Play by the rules of the pack or don't play at all. Or what ever policy the pack feels is appropriate. I am drawn to the comment about being uncomfortable about confronting the offending parent...jeeze was he a ranting rabid neo- conservative or something. He may have just never heard of the BSA "policy"/reservation on sheath knives (as was our troop CC on his first campout with us years ago wearing his Navy K-Bar, though he still does carry it and still has not turned into a slasher or cut off any digets). Perhaps a quiet, 'off to the side, information sharing' moment with the 'knife dad' would have resulted in an immediate solution...however I would be just as worried about a group of tiger/cubs folks where the parents were so afraid of each other they couldn't even share a safety concern...goodness! and I don't think I'd give these folks knives as prizes. (just a joke)Make a call, send a newsletter, solve the problem...

Son, Looking at your plethora of posts, this older scout crap has really stuck in your craw.... First, unless the troop committee, and SM/ASM corp are going to back you...you are not going to change the older boys 'marking time' until they 'talk' themselves into Eagles...As OGE (a senior poster) says all the time... if they do the 'requirements' (and someone has to check them off) they get the rank...tough life ...deal with it...many of us have to...and have. Depending on how long you and your son are going to be with the troop you have two choices...continue butting your head against the wall or build the program for the future. I been part of a change...it took a good four years (heck nine years later we are still fighting the good fight). Are you up to it? Knowing, that you will pick the second choice but not knowing your position in the troop, my advise is locate a corp of parents of younger scouts who feel that something is missing from the scouting experience...then change it. These parents have to become committee members and ASM's (if not CC and SM)or this will not work. ONLY AFTER YOU HAVE A GOODLY NUMBER OF CM's AND ASM's on board you start... If necessary, you 'write off' the older scouts...let the existing old guard' leaders know that you are going to raise the quality of the troop and if they want to keep advancing the dead wood they can 'have at it'...just don't get in your way...within the new 'corp' of interested parents you start, patrol by patrol, working on skills and attitude. New scout patrols and the parent who come with them are indoctrinated with the "new program" protocols (though 70% pariticaption is asking for older scouts to drop scouting like a hot potato...suggest you look at that)... You help the younger patrols plan patrol events (additional camps, trips and work projects out side of the troop calendar) You do not depend on the older scouts...you can envite them along to enjoy the ride..and you might even turn one or two around (we did), but don't count on it. Your parents and the few older scouts mentor and teach until you grow some good scouts. Plan, teach, repeat...over and over...It won't be long before the younger scouts know way more than the older scouts and start feeling like older scouts (and then acting like older scouts should. Remember however, sitting around at every campout tying knots is a program killer...true scout-craft is not necessary every minute of an activity, go fishing, canoeing, hiking, hike hunting- (small groups (no guns) try to find 'game' birds and beasts and keep score), play capture the flag, climb trees and rocks (remember LNT), cooking classes where mom and dad are guests, first aid class practiced on local EMT's (good guys). And testing...make every oportunity a teaching-testing one...pull out a small cord and challenge boys to tie knots. On campouts pick different boys to build fires, even if a fire is not needed (where permitted), Fall down and 'require' the scouts to get you back to camp...they love that one...(watch your head)! Let the newer, younger, more interested scouts and their parents know that a new day is slowly dawning, Most will be glad, and many helpful...but it is work and you (with many others)better be willing to step up to the plate... And you will have to be realistic...many boys will not stay with the program after 14/15...it just doesn't fill the needs they have...you will not change that...ever. The 'fumes"...Perfume and gasoline fumes just get too important in many boys lives...all you can do is make the best program you can and encourage them to try it on for size...only 2%(?) make Eagle...most drop out. Our job is not to make it tougher to be a scout only better to be one... One further point...when I started my 'quest', my first Boy Scout was outspokenly disappointed that there were no older scouts on campouts...('cept SPL)... now I have to remind him, frequently, of his past gripes, because suddenly he 'has a life other than scouting'...even though he is only a 'project' away from eagle...and with my second son, nearly life,...scouting is okay but it not what rings his bell...so don't be surprised if your own son(s) discovers other adventures...its not the end of the world... But nine year later, the dead wood including leaders is gone. New families, more scouts and with a better outdoor program we have a strong troop with almost a built in 'quality unit attitude'. We have problems and we work constantly to keep it going in the right direction (whatever that is)... good scouting! oh yes, not to pick... but as far as teaching at troop meetings... I hope your SPL has lessons worked out at (and through) the PLC. That way he knows, as do his instructors,(well in advance)who is teaching and what is the approved the lesson plan...Then he has no 'older' scouts 'bailing' on him to play football or whatever. It should be part of the troop policy and practice that instructors are not shanghaied at the meetings and told or asked to teach unprepared. my two cents Anarchist