anarchist

CO is a Methodist Church... We ususally have a large (uniformed) group attend, even though most are not members of this church. We do a short flag ceremony and sit in the front row of seats. The SPL/SM present our charter to the IH at this time.

EagleInKY- love the dumpster dive MB! Parents (most of them) can be retrained. In everything you hand out in all your newsletters, emails, web pages and parents meeting constantly repeat...If A BOY CAN DO IT...PARENTS DON'T! We try to remind adults at every opportunity...On activities, I have even been known to run up to a parent, gently wrap a arm around them and laughing all-the-while, guide them back to the parents play-pen area...can't take your eyes off of them for a second! We try to keep parents thinging they are transport, and not themselves working on advancement...(tell alot of stories about "boys who's parents do their SCHOOL homework for them...do you believe it!" some of it gets through.

It must be understood that the whole program is junior training. From the APL's,PL's ASPL and SPL, Troop guide, they are all on the job training and as you move from one to the other you gain knowledge and give knowledge...trained and training. In addition to the COUNCIL JLT we run a weekend in house JLT to work with our green bars. The SM works with the PLC in a year long monthly training on operational skills. The troop through it's high adventure patrol activities and monthly training for each activities give Scouts on going skills classes. Some of our older scouts take part in outdoor leader skills training offered by different outdoor centers (REI) but that is pricy

Trevorum/SemperParatus glad it worked out! Our troop, like wise, takes all comers, only question is ...ASM or CM? SM runs it all and is fully supported by CC but we find a use for 'every seat' in the house... biggest problem I have seen with this is some of the 'newbies' question the BSA way and sometimes feel we don't 'listen' to their new ideas...like when one asked 'who was I to require all scouts on our canoe trip be recognized BSA swimmers and wear PFD's (after all isn't that a parents job?...no really he did ask that question) Mostly it works well and with some TLC you grow new adult leaders

Religion...someone once told me that more folks have died in the name of religion than any other cause...that should give anyone a reason to be cautious in such discussions...and amply demonstrate that it is ground that should be walked upon lightly... more than feelings get easily hurt. Scouters have absolutely no business discussing religious subjects with Scouts unless it is about the BOY's religious requirements and only the BOY's religion...period, not the scouters. Scouter on scouter debates, while most likely acceptable, it can be so much worse than politics. The unit itself can be damaged by the results of a debate 'gone bad'. You have to weigh the risks before going far down that road...best bet is take it outside of scouting! In the example EagleInKy cited, I hate to say, I am not sure the group was showing tolerance towards the lady's religion so much as accomodation to the Muslim practices. More telling was the notation that they had shown her tolerance and she should do the same...but I saw no intolerance in her example but a definite display of compassion for a person who may (or may not) have been feeling lost. I think she was very perceptive in noting that the 'drop out' catholic needed to find something that he 'needs', not what her Christian friends felt they needed...ie. to save his soul and place him on their road to salvation. Coming from a family with a nearly (professed) aetheistic father and an evangelical Mother, I know a lot about tolerance...in religion anyway. Most of my evangelical friends only see a one-way street and due to their need to spread the Good News, frequently step on the 'toes' of other creeds...and sensibilities. Good deeds and good works should be used to demonstrate ones values, but they do not entitle one to prosilitize! The poor/sick/weak/disposessed human beings in recent world events (as an example) need practical help, not sermons...and if, by your Christian/Muslim/Buddist/Hundu/Wicca (etc.) deeds, your faith touches someone, he or she will seek out the source of your faith and goodness...but it (your help and assistance)should never be a bribe, a thing of barter, or ....a hammer. faith and peace!

Religion-see below(This message has been edited by anarchist)

scouterfly, why just once a month?....In our troop, we ask ALL COMMITTEE MEMBERS to attend the first meeting of each month for multiple board sessions, then we try to have at least three committee members at every other meeting for needed BoR's.... seems to work well...in your case, you could do the boy in question over a three week period...or do tenderfoot/second class one week first class the next...good luck but I think he should have time to think about each board...in between

troop251scout may I suggest that you also take a page from your school book. Treat much of this as your history or english teacher would a major paper. When you assign a task give the PLC a schedule...outline, resources and first draft dates...all of it, back to you by...date(?). this gives them short term goals that can then proceed to the next step/goal in a logical progression and gives you updates on prgress. Always give plenty of lead time (proper planning requires this)and follow up on everything until you have trained the PLC to do it correctly. NO SURPRISES- it helps to have a few minutes of email, phone or 'face' time with your ASPL/PL's each week outside of the troop meetings so you can get progress reports and make adjustments... Failure is way 'over-rated', especially when someone elses failure seems to reflect on you. If you keep to your plans and require updates you can make adjustments as problems arise and keep failure rates low. You can also build a better team by lending a hand or offering some additional help when you see it is needed. Don't allow a PL's screw up to ruin an event for many others, stay on top of it (the planning/exicution) and use your ASPL as a resourse... help the 'failing PL see what failure could lead to...them help him succeed. It is all about learning and teaching, and you seem to be on of the 'keepers' good scouting.

Involving and informing the CO is always appropriate. They might even want to link their web site with yours...It is also a good way to communicate with the CO... Releases are a good idea, along with the Pack committee's blessings for the endeaver...do not surprise your committee...they may want to see a pack web policy developed first...(been there and seen that) they might also be more cautious that you and you should work that out first. BUT WEB SITES ARE VERY GOOD TOOLS

Hose should not be used! nor do you need to construct a station. Depending on the numbers involved...(do you need one two or three stations?) The easiest solution is three large (or small) dish pans from the dollar store or walmart etc...and a plastic table is nice but you could build a saw horse table if cash is a problem. HOT water is best. start by having everyone whipe out their dishes and pans with a rag or paper towels...dishes should look nearly clean before they go in your first soapy wash tub. Second tub is hot rinse water (bleach is optional or no needed depending on third pan) third pot is the charm... on some of our camps we use boiling water and plyers or 'dunk bags' on some we use bleach added to the third pan and probably best choise, if the cubs are doing some of the washing, is to use sanitizing tabs...3 to a pack from BSA for about $2.25+/-. These tablets disolve in the last pan you soak you pots and dishes in this solution and allow the dishware to AIR DRY...no 'bleach spills and/or spots on Cub uniforms and clothing. gray water (left over dish water) should be handled correctly depending on the camp requirements... broadcast, poured in a 'filtered sump' or disposed in a sewer hook up at the camp or park...but never put in the latrines or outhouses. Bleach does work however, for the last three years at Sea Base we have used bleach in cold, dirty seawater and no one has gotten sick yet! If you really want to spend money several suppliers have prebuilt 'kitchens' with wash stations that can be used or copied....

We try to avoid bogus awards also...we have gone to a weigh in the night before the race...during this parents (from dens other than their son's) judge the various cars for a den by den I did my best award...the main criteria is that they should try to pick a cat that really looks like a boy did the work on it...the top three in each den have a quick 'interview' conplete with 'pretend microphone' like it is being done for "TV"...the interview allows the bot to tell how hard it is to build one of these "FINE" racing machines...for the last three years almost every winner has been a kid whose dad couldn't or didn't help...some of them were pretty sad looking but they were done with heart and effort... some however are really nice, put together by hard core perfectionist kids (like older son was 10 years ago) but most are rough runners like those put to gether by my younger son...you know take the block out cut the corners off, spray paint it and put at least three wheels on! Design is great, just be ware that dads do most of the design work...

SemperParatus, I like the third option you noted...but maybe add this... assumming the CC has not done paperwork on this 'volunteer', have the CC approach him, Adult Volunteer form inhand, with the 'gee wiz', we need you to fill these forms out for insurance purposes and charter reasons' line... at the same time give him a list of Council or district training events and ask which classes he can attend (soon). Then have the CC give him a list of jobs you need volunteers for... (and a job discription for each), and a list of the next three campouts on your annual plan and finish by asking him which ones he can help with! Use an 'assumptive close'...everything in your (CC's) words, smile and body language 'assumes' he can't help but say yes and see if he high tails it for the hills. If not you may have picked up a 'utility man/special projects' ASM...good hunting!

fortunatly for PETA... Shark can be very fine eating...most bad culinary encouters are due to the poor handling and care of the shark after it is killed. To enjoy, you have to immediately bleed the beast from both ends: Gill area arteries and tail area...the shark needs to be comletely 'dressed' SOON after the bleeding and iced immediately. Soak a steak in orange juice overnight and grill with spices of your choice...it is very good...and has a firm texture... but perhaps if we left the sharks alone they could eat more PETA's...???? BUT, let's not belittle any religion...to sharks, they all taste like chicken.

most reusable warmers can be taken apart. Some of the lighter fuel burners, if you separate the fuel wadding from the wick they will go out...some can not be separated... but it is combustion so try this: wrap in some insulation...old glove(?) and put in two nested zip locks...insulator is to keep from messing-up your ZIP LOCKS...should starve the wick for Oxigen ...will go out after several minutes..... try it an let me know most folks I know just let them burn out...this way might save fuel...but...?

talk about beating a dead horse... I am a non- smoker-cancer surviver-with one lung...but I don't agree with Acco40 on this. I take the meaning of the quote used to be that since I am to support the notion that 'young adults are better off...may not allow....to be that, no young adults (scouts) may smoke... not refering to my crusty old friends who are trying to race me to the grave... One of our old scoutmasters smoked, he just took it away from the group...in away, I think that is the more powerful message...SMOKING SUCKS...What young person would want to have to 'hide' his habit....? keep smilin'

Good luck... on thing you might as the SM to try with the sour apples in the troop...I saw our SM, a RGG (really good guy) do this at this years NSP shakedown campout... Our troop has a special campout just for the NSP's in April after their crossover...This past year we gained 31 new scouts. We had nearly 30 parent sign up to go along on the campout...I was terrified...RGG had a plan. The first morning had hardly started before parents were trying to 'correct or over-rule SPL plans and instruction for new Patrols. In jumps RGG and herds all the new parents over to a side camp sets up tables and chairs, handsout some BSA literature and starts training the new parents as a new scout patrol...electing PL's, setting duty rosters, planning meals, estimating shopping costs, planning what to pack etc. after lunch he starts training them as a PLC, doing the annual troop plan...over a weekend he retrained about 50 % of the folks there, 'cowed' 25% of them and had the other 25 % muttering how he "would not listen to a better way of doing things and just because BSA said so, didn't mean it was right...." It was masterful and impressive...your SM might want to try it! anarchist

We are currently going through this...finding a new meeting site has been very hard in our small community. Having out grown our current room (along with having to share it with a day care operation has been trying) we are faced with moving our troop which has been in this town for 52 years to a nearby town and a CO which has a nice facility and really wants a troop to use their building and wants to finacially support the troop or 'sidling up' to a new CO that has an OK facility and who wants to help the boys out of their 'jam'... but in the end, will not really be a true CO...no interest and no real support. Our committee is leaning toward the latter, inorder to maintain the troop in the original community. As you go about the process try to stay on good terms with the current CO...and try to get your council to 'allow' troop tenure to continue...other wise you may have the same troop number but be in effect a brand new troop. Also ask each question two or three times...as eammon notes some times the experts don't know all the right answers...and the second or third person you ask might know of a 'loop hole'... try to get letters from the CO/IH/COR to the effect that they want to transfer the troop to the new CO, not just drop the charter and strat a new troop....It helps!

SemperParatus- good clear effective way to handle subject... We used to do a paintball day...long ago...but as we wised up to the BSA way it had to go...now our older boys plan and organize it themselves, outside of scouts...sort of like scouting...they learned they can do it themselves...and they can.

Gosh I love this stuff.... dan, (and SR) long reply...and Moderator if you want to move this off somewhere...we are getting off subject a bit.... I don't really consider... 'master' thats BSA language... I consider KNOWING. We use knots at nearly every outdoor event our troop does. Our troop/patrols use a rain fly at every camp-rain or shine, we also lash a flag pole (even if one already exists) and at least one or two tripods. We have our own set of canoes (EZ-Ups take too much space) and canoe trailer that we use at every oportunity, so ropes and hitches are are important to us...We do not even let the boys leave their tautline knots in their lines, so that they have to tie them again and again and again... dan, I did not say the troop did not re-teach, we do it constantly! We also have the boys teach others until it becomes conter-productive. What I said was don't blame the adults or the troop if a boy forgets... (as I have said before, maybe because we see so many 'complaints' posted... we seem to always 'blame' the troop...the twit SM but never the 'plaintif'...) In our troop, we offer the opportunity the boys must do their part and learn, if they want to advance. Our SM is a Really Good Guy (RGG) He spends lots of time with the scouts, one on one in many cases. He also wanders through camp sites constantly challenging the boys to show him something...While he does not test on every thing in SM conferences he does talk the scout through every requirement and if he senses a problem, he very well may test and schedule a secong SM conference the following week. As for me and Eagle Scouts remembering ist and 2nd class stuff...yep, I truely feel that the 'best of the best' (MIB I)should be able to demonstrate a sound knowledge and understanding of all rank required skill sets up to and including EAGLE...(dan to add "without the troop giving him any chances to utilize..." again places all the blame on the troop...what ever happened to you gotta play to win???) Less than a strong knowledge and ability to demonstrate the material, to me, equals a paper eagle...and that's another thread... A story: I run or support a shakedown campout for NSP's every year. The only older scouts who attend are the guides and a few instructors...Cooking, camp set-up, knots and whipping (rope-not boys although....)first aid and lashing gadgets all figure in to our weekend schedule. One year, I roped a Star scout from my older son's patrol to teach...I had watched him struggle with Knot-tying since he was bear cub scout...in the few weeks we had prior to the shakedown, as we passed around the lesson plans most of the boys just sort of naturally picked what they wanted to teach and finally it was down to first aid or knots and he went for the first aid packet...Being the mean old guy, I got there first tossed it to the other scout and let "J" know he was teaching knots to 21 boys rotating into his area three or four at a time. I thought he was going to be physically sick...( a fouteen and 1/2 year, old 6 ft, 180lb. boy hurling on you is not a pleasant thought). He pleaded that he never really 'got' knots and his mates sort of helped him out...My reply was; well he need to get cracking! Review the lesson plans and let's get together next week...it was painful...he was one who put every thing into short term memory...everything! We worked and worked and he came through the weekend nowing how to do it, and how to teach it ...but being in a very strong patrol (6 of 9 guys just short of eagle...legitimately, skill-wise, good scouts) had allowed him to coast. for years...We went back through his entire set of basic scout skills and made him learn and teach...It was not always pleasant (he even put the cake mix in the D.O. first then the fruit for a dump cobbler-can you spell concrete!) but he finally did it and now he is the seventh out of nine...writing up his final report on his Eagle Project. I am just a firm believer in hard work being worth while...lets have fun but some of this stuff is serious learning ...and can fun if you do it right and if the boys have the desire! Let's stop boiling every thing down to the lowest common denomiator. If you set the bat high these kids will surprise you...every time. Left to their own desires many scout would like us to just give them a rank patch every year...just like kiddie soccer! Do we want that for Scouting?

about 7 oz. it's the fuel thats the problem...

Transpor? Why would they need to? I don't believe they make/sell underwear and if your feet are 'active' enough to need a wicking material you need liners (cool max etc.) and while they may sell some of those in some scout shops, most outdoor stores sell better - cheaper....Don't think I would pay 20% more to have a scout logo on my long johns... As eisely said; BSA is slow! With BSA supply, it'll be some time around 3027 A.D. before they get around to looking at it....right after they adapt a new action pant (BDUs)....

dan... we really do disagree on this! first it's not my thought on 'mastery of a skill, it is a direct quote from the BSA handbook... And this is where I whole-heartedly disagree with many posters on the subject of rank, testing and advancement. I believe if a boy is challenged to learn something and you let him slide by... with him looking at it for five minutes before he shows you he "knows how to do it"...You are wasting his time and yours...lets just give them all their Eagle patches at the first meeting and start a game of capture the flag! And dan, blaming the troop for a boy forgetting a skill in three months?...Gosh they don't even tolerate that in public schools, do they? If a boy wants a rank and has not finished it...(ie. his SM conference) what is wrong with expecting him to stay on top of that skill set for a few months? good gosh, merit badges are the area for trying and forgetting, not rank skills. this is not Cub Scouts. and JLTC staffing.... been there, done that, and had same great experience but it does not change the bottom line scouts need to grow, mature, take responsibility, and learn. If the house we are building is good citizens and men and the pinicle is the EAGLE, don't you think the foundation should be rock solid rather than mush?

Cheffy, love it! two years a go we had a boy (in the lone scout side of the contest)build a 'smoker' on site with a 'table top' $7.00 charcoal grill (smoker lid was a leaf covered 'basket' made on site with small saplings) then he proceeded to smoke three trout, roasted potatoes in a D.O., steamed fresh green beans in his mess kit and produced a pine-apple upside down cake in a second D.O. As I mentioned before this is done at the church community picnic...Members of the church are "drafted" by the pastor to be judges...Our little 'show off' then proceeded to produce from his backpack a checker board plastic table cloth, table setting for four, plastic wine glasses, two small candles, cloth napkins and a semi chilled bottle of sparkling cider (white)... Since I was not a judge I could not deduct for the plastic nor the cake (my favorite BTW), but too heavy for the trout.... Don't you just love this stuff when the boys reach higher than you expect!

acco40's answer RULES! t'was the way my mom did it exactly.....back in the good old dark ages... course then oldest son discovered scout shop patch glue (smells like silicone caulk?) Younger son went to beige velcro...matches nicely

And I thought this was gonna be a fun thread... R7...BSA says all of us believing in a religious system have standing...if you want to argue semantics of morality...get a Sunday morning TV show and have at it... 'All who have faith, will come to the light' has a sort of nice moral ring to it. If you insist on making morality a solely religious province, I would have to ask you to explain religious immorality, evolution of religious values and the biggie... to prove the existance of god....For me I don't need ( no stinkin')proof (that was a joke line, by the way)... but then I also try not generalize the motives or morals of a society 'at large' that allows me to believe my way and more importantly lets you believe your way...most of my evangelical friends have trouble with that one...think about it...let's make nice and and get back to the fun in scouting!