anarchist

Wow...nice fund raiser, good cause...with good "community visiblity"...bet the contribution will be "token" size but what the Hey.... In our District, many moons ago, a large very prestigeous golf tourney started...Originally several Troops were approched by club "members" to help out for a "contribution"...The contributions were actually pretty darn good...Then Council stepped in and "took the dough"... seems troops were not approved to "do direct contributions of cash"...but we were still asked to supply troops to hump the trash and do the grunt work...Now many fewer troops participate...and very few are "local/neighboring" troops among those that do help out. I like big events that show off scouting (and boy's) "good deeds" to the public whether is is service or fund raising...you can always tell the organizers to keep your "share" for the "cause"...then it is service work... my 2 cents anarchist

d2smith, members of the PLC should "shoot" all adults trying to enter the PLC outside of the SM or assigned ASM. (just kidding) One adult is plenty to keep the scouts on track. PLC is for the patrol leaders to advise the SPL as to the status of their programs and to seek assistance when needed to further their goals. It is not a place for parent to make suggestions or direct the planning of the troop program. SPL parents, in particular, should be tied to a coffee table in a room way down the hall. Boys need to grow and all too often we parents "hover" too much. The SM should be quite capable to lead the program he wants the boys to experience and help them plan scouting activities they feel are appropiate to take advantage of the BSA program. Early on with new families, we rope them in to adult support programs to keep them out of their kids hair as much as possible. And the parents who demand to be at the PLC??? Roberts Rules of Order are used and they (parents) are reminded that they are observers and not participants and are frankly never "in order". An Agenda is set before the meeting and if a parent has a suggestion they "just must make" they are asked to submit it to their PL son and after he works it through in this patrol-Then if he wants it on the next agenda he can bring it to the SPL for inclusion....Or they (the parents)can bring it to the SM outside of the meeting (the usual suggested course of action as well as the most likely to truely be heard)...All of this is done with a lot of tact and not as brutal as it sounds here. In over eleven years of working with this troop we have had very few problems (and almost all of them have been with new SPL parents) due to driving distances, Almost all of the parents sit in one of the church meeting rooms rather than go home. We discuss up-coming events, sometimes show canoeing, hiking or caving tapes/DVDs or just generally complain about the weather. Boys can not find the "leader hidden deep within" their young bodies if they keep having to act like they think their parents want them to act or "do" what they think mom or dad wants them to "do". Parent can do the parent thing at home...Scouting is for the Scouts. Given a chance and the SMs gentle guidance it is truely surprising what they can accompish over time.

Eagle732, this one is simple...(sorta) There is nothing "bad" about a mega troop. It should be pretty evident that they are doing "enough things right" that a bunch of families want to take part in the "good times". The smaller troop might have enough "issues" that negativily influence scouts or parents to select the mega troop or it might just be struggling and most folks want to go where things are already working well. How can a program that is "jumping" and seemingly offering a rewarding program for 100 boys be considered "bad"??? I know I would not be comfortable there but it would not be my job or anyone elses job to change that program. keep in mind that scouting is (by design) first and foremost a patrol centric activity and the troop is just a gathering of patrols so in theory it should not matter if you have three or thirty patrols. ( though I think 30-40 scouts is darn near perfect) On the other side the small troop might need the help of the district or council. It might be that they simply need to set a goal and build a program to attract more scouts...after all "little" is good for lots of us. If they do not realize they have a problem, perhaps they don't really have a problem and are happy with the basic situation and then, once again, they would be one ones whose business it is or would be to make changes, if neeed. If they feel there is a problem with the small troop they need to get with the parents and scouts to delve into the matter in an honest manner. District might be able to help, heck even a few cups of coffee with the leaders and shakers of the mega troop might be in order to get a feel for what that unit feels it is doing right and what it could be doing to do better. You would be surprised how many successful troops would love to give a struggling neighbor a hand up... AS a side note and example I would submit that in our council recently we had an eleven boy patrol (part of a ten patrol mega troop) all earn their Eagles. Gotta be doing something right, don't you think?! Unfortunately sometimes troops can not be saved, sometimes they just don't have the right group of scouts and families to make a "going" troop and lasting program. Sometimes troops have serious up and down periods when strong scouting families age out and leave and are followed by less than committed or experienced families who think the Scouting programs run themselves...if the troop can last long enough for a new cycle of "strong" families they might survive-or not. But if anything needs to be changed it is the small troop that needs to change and not the mega troop. whether it is leadership, training or program offerings the smaller troop needs to determine it's desired set of goals and find a plan to execute...but it would not be at the expense of the mega troop needing to change.

fgoodwin, the greeks (not geeks) were right..."All things in moderation"! I personally never thought guzzling was appropriate for water! Branch water should be slowly sipped, after carefully purifying with quality Kentucky Bourbon (can't have anyone getting a dose of guardia, now can we). anarchist

jblake47, Fuel stoves vs wood/charcoal is not just a national park problem. Many state and local parks now do not allow 'policing up' wood for fires...last year in Virginia there was a state-wide fire ban that included charcoal (even in grills) in state and national parks! No stoves meant cold meals. And your "in the box" comment is just plain outa line...try doing the boundary waters for ten day on a no cook menu...not too many happy campers I'll bet! But then maybe all your AARP body can handle is a weekend trip, so two cold meals and some gorp is all you need...(I know, not kind nor friendly...just a wee taste of your own medicine) Using "go green" as an excuse for talking down "stove use" just does not work...many areas are beginning to talk about the pollution caused by burning wood and are slowly thinking up ways to ban even fireplaces or stoves in our homes from burning wood! Many areas do not allow you to bring your own wood (bio-threats). And this doesn't even touch on the vehicular pollutants we all spew out...is every one to hike from home to camp? Of course not. We do the best with what we have. And no one thinking "in the box" here said stoves were the "end all" simply that they had to be part of the plan...I think you know what a plan is...right? (I know, just another taste...if you want to talk down to the "inside the box'ers" expect to get some of it back. I love to camp and use wood and charcoal whenever I can; but I have also learned that we have to be ready for all the possiblities. Stoves are a part of what we do, sometimes an essential part. In the end I think we can all (or most) agree, that part of our "job" should be to teach and familiarize our scouts with all types of cooking systems so they can make appropriate and safe decisions and so they can learn to enjoy this outdoor stuff as much as we adults do! (This message has been edited by anarchist)

uz2bnowl, wow! chill out, don'tcha know todays problems are the direct result of the over active right wing reactionaries who hated loosing even the appearance of control and power...Why, they even embraced the Comrade V.I. Lenins favorite mantra..."If you tell a lie long enough...it becomes the truth"...think george and dick and donnie and alberto...after all did the "flower children" ever torture anyone? (except their parents!?) I'm with OGE...if you did the '60's right it's really fuzzy....man peace Anarchist

Gern... wanna really blow your budget and maybe your mind take a look around to see if you can find a MSR Hubba Hubba...I love mine...40 inch height, just over two pounds ..but really pricy... I looked at the REI tent last week... they had one set up without the fly...it seemed a bit "less than wind proof" sorta shaky...Maybe with the fly "on" it firms up a bit but I couldn't get anyone to install the fly for a non-buyer...(made the mistake of saying I had all the tents I needed and was just curious)...They were too busy (in the middle of a store wide sale) to locate the fly and asked me to come back later...Havn't had the time to finish the quest.... but there are lots of toys out there...and so little time.... Anarchist

missing profiles?? I just checked mine which I filled out in 2002 and it is still up and running...wonder whats up? Anarchist

CPR vs. CCC (aka CCR) current research led by University of Arizona cardiac researchers has prompted American Heart Association (its not just an AP story)to endorse dropping the rescue breathing portion of CPR for continual chest compression at the rate of about 100 per minute...current evidence shows a tripling of survival rates... Which even with CPR were dismal (usually 5% or LESS). There are lots of situational differences, but for adult victims who are observed "going down" the survival rates have risen from just over 5% to the neighborhood of 16-17% when continual chest compressions are used. This recommendation appears to be for non- EMT/hospital staff types (like the general public with basic or no CPR training) And even then the general feeling is once an EMT type is on site ...a defibrilator is to be used to jump start the victim. I'll be interested to see what the recommendations are for those of us who are two hours or more from "jump start" assistance... During my last CPR recertification class we discussed mental health issues experienced by CPR givers who "lost" their victim and had hard times dealing with the "failure". It was noted by the instructor that many members of the public would probably not finish CPR training if they knew the actual statistical success ratios...I wonder... In any case keep your mouth shields handy; they are still warranted if the situation is "right".... Anarchist

Kenk, A lot of it has to do with adult support and troop finances. Our Troop has the luxury of doing it either way- but it was a long time coming and a lot of work. Light and lean has it's own set of issues...most expedition stoves are twice to three time the cost of a coleman "double burner" and even the much loved MSR Dragonfly is really only a three person (maybe four) stove...and meals for more than six people end up being time killers and usually fairly un- inspiring... If you have a few hundred dollars to spend on kitchen gear for each 6-8 scouts go for it! But keep in mind you will need several fuel bottles ($10.00 each) and two Dragonflys ($100+ each) and two smaller cook sets at$50 each (Even the "fly" has issues with an six to eight quart "pasta pot")...to do the same job as a coleman stove ($39.00) and a ($70) patrol cook kit. We were mainly a truck camping troop excepting a couple of pack trips annually where the troop borrowed my gear...We branched off to do Canoeing and started to slowly pick up expedition equipment (stoves, water filters, super light nylon flys, etc.) now the patrols can take their pick if they want to go light or go dutch oven crazy.... The thing I have noticed in the last 11-12 years is the ebb and flow of adults willing to support hiking...some years it is not a problem other years the same leaders are over loaded meeting demand...having options is nice. Anarchist

It has been said that we laugh at some humor...to keep from crying....

us3packrats, What scoutldt said...check out the first class scout section of the hand book...our CC asks scouts to identify the meaning of each "part" of the badge in BoRs...no one "fails" but they all know what to expect next time... Anarchist

trout on the middle James??? smallmouth, rock bass, blue gills, pickerel, catfish,even long nose gar...but trout???? (don't think so...unless some one drops them in) great river.... but trout are up in the hills. Anarchist

Joni$TA, I wouldn't think a thing of it...not my business...or yours, frankly. The Eagle is not a "troop rank or award" it is the scouts award...first and formost. (though something could be said about all the folks who helped him get there...). Make the offer and move on. Our troop will provide the site and set up/ take down labor, and we pay for beverages and a large sheet cake but the real size, shape, and timing of the event is left to the Eagle and his family. Many times it is delayed so important relatives and guests can make the trip...It is the boys party and he can do what he wants...within reason. On a personal note My version of SWMBO'ed was somewhat hurt when our oldest decided he didn't want an ECoH. He wrote a few letters to Scouters who had helped him along thanking them for their help and that was that... When I asked him about the lack of an ECoH, his first answer was; "I did it to prove I could do it". Then(somewhat later) I asked him again (SM was really wanting an ECoH for him)...my oldest boy thought for a few seconds and said simply, "dad, I was proud to finish the Program but I did not earn an "Eagle" for a medal or a certificate. I worked at it to prove to myself that I could do "the thing"...the prize is in the trip getting there...not a badge at the end." I had not understood when the Committee Chair had commented that "this boy" seemed to have the best grasp on the meaning of being an Eagle of any scout he had ever sat EBoR for... Guess he got the blarney from his Mother...she's the Irish one in the family.... P.S. my boy got scarce at meetings also...but he turned 18 a week after his EBoR and college (and a new phase of life) became more important... chin up...life is short Anarchist

SctDad, Real cowboy coffee...for truck camps the Adult kitchen (mine) puts on a 40 cup plus coffee boiler (throw away percolator parts...just added stuff to lose! Fill with cold water, add one handful of grounds per two cups of water(fresh is best...folgers or maxwell works almost as well). Place on fire as it reaches temp (for your breakfast coffee) put in a few left over egg shells (the calcium carbonate helps tone down the acid in the coffee). Gently boil (not rolling) until the aroma covers your camp... hint...just before serving- pour one cup of cold water into the spout...this will settle grinds nicely...then after every one has a cup filled add water and more handfuls of coffee as required to keep pot on all day...just remember the cold water for subsequent cups and you can have good coffee all day...fact: unbeknownst to folks is the addition of flying insects, ants and bits of wood-bark improve the flavor beyond anything you get at "yuppie-bucks" and similar clones.... drink up Anarchist

Longhaul, the patrol method is what BW is try to get to...not the troop method....and in most cases the Guides do "give up" a certain amount of older scout involvement as a cost of being Guides. Just as the SPL is no longer in a patrol, the Guides are guides not members of patrols for their POR time. In our troop we encourage our guides to participate in high adventure program as long as they have their NSP activities covered. It is why we try to have two guides for each NSP. That way one can take some time "off" for older scout activities or school sports etc., while his buddy guide takes over. NSPs can camp along side older boys and frequently do but there are some events and activities they in which can not take part. White water, caving, rappelling, among others. More to the point, with the NSP, their program is more concentrated on basic skills and advancement than the older scouts (1st class/1st year). Even in a troop activities (say a District Camporee)the NSP may actually be doing more Scout skills work than the older scouts in order to take advantage of the time afield. Even troop meetings are more detailed for the NSP as they use much of their time learning scout skills and weaving their needs into the troop program and schedule. If your older scouts are fed pablem year after year most will drop out. They need more challenge and more variety to keep growing...so a multi tiered, multi-purpose program makes for longer retention and a more energetic program. March crossovers in our neck of the woods are almost a necessity, that is if you feel summer camp is inportant to new scout retention. Leaving aside acclimating new scouts and their parents to the troop and camping in general; most of the nicer East coast summer camps fill quickly and if you are taking 40-60 boys to camp and call the camp in May to "add on" another 7-12 new boys...all you hear is uncontrolled laughter on the other end of the phone...(ie there's no room at the Inn!) anarchist

wow your council won't sell rank patches without advancement sheet-go figure??? Then Call another scout shop! We keep a whole parts box of "expected to be needed" patches for all ranks (except Eagle of course). Our Council is tight on the rank pocket cards but sell us patches (and pins) all the time. The SM or NSP ASM will let the "patch" guy know what they think we need in the up coming months and the order goes out... In our troop almost without question if a Scout "passes" a board during a meeting (and occaisionally at a campout) he is given his rank patch that night in front of his peers. He is then expected to go home and sew it on.."no stinking plastic holders" allowed! Scouts mothers sew it on? Are they in Boy Scouts? ...At the next general CoH (usually quarterly)he is given a parent (Moms) pin and his rank card. All boys should know how to sew! And cook, and clean a fish, and skin a deer and change a tire and the oil in moms car!! Anarchist

Lisabob, food waste is sorta natural with groups of boys...check out not only the school cafeteria but watch the plates coming off the table at your favorite restaurant...lots of waste going in the garbage.... That said, I agree that your son should have the issue brought up at the next PLC... In our troop (we push hard for good meals that are appropiate to the weekends schedule), our SPL checks and approves all menus at our last meeting before each campout (or before). Since he does not have to prepare meals or clean up (he eats with the adults as a perk of office)...One of his tasks is to float through the different patrol campsites to be sure they are getting meals done in a timely, semi-healthy manner. He frequently is invited (as is the SM) to eat with the patrols (his/their choice). This keeps younger boys on task and older boys from being too lazy. Sometimes he (the SPL)details a troop instructor to help a patrol having difficulties... On some campouts our guys do really involved meals, on some its one pot. But on all we try to be certain the boys are learning that cooking can be part of the fun and not a drudge. Apples are great! but when I supply them, for the adult kitchen half the apples come home...but dehydrated apples are consumed like candy... as are most dehydrated fruits...I generally stock up on a large bag of dried fruit and nuts (Costco) and suppliment with a few bags of dryed mango or apples or cranberries. You should suggest to your son he might want to take a small "offering" to his patrol meeting to see how it goes over... Pack212Scouter...I believe the egg in a bag "trick" the folks were discussing above, is classified in most training books under the heading of "gimmick"- cooking over fire meals... and not the boiled eggs in a plastic bag omelet. In this meal you use a "hot coals" fire and a Paper Lunch bag. Generally, you cut the bacon in half so one piece/slice covers the bottom of the paper bag and then break open one or two eggs and drop on top of the bacon. You fold over the top of the bag once or twice and poke a small hole either through the fold or just under it. A green stick is then used to elevate the bag over the hot embers until the bacon (and eggs)is "done". Regulating the heat is the trick. If done correctly and not placed too close to the hot embers, the grease and liquid from the eggs will prevent the bag from burning (like boiling water in a paper cup)...It takes the right "touch", and some luck or experience to work well... but when it does you simply tear off the top of the paper bag and use the bottom of the bag as your plate and eat up... Later the bag is burned in your fire and you have only your fork or spoon to clean. but generally it takes longer than just frying the things up in a mess kit... good scouting Anarchist(This message has been edited by anarchist)

CaveEagle, As has been said there are allergies and there are ALLERGIES and for some reason the nut allergies seem to frequently border on death sentences. For some folks the slightest exposure can result in a massive reaction. So as a unit you need to investigate all there is to know on this boys problem. Your unit needs to understand that sometimes eating food from a really well scrubbed and well rinsed pot that was washed in the same hot soapy water used by the scouts to clean a knife used in a jar of peanut butter can kill some folks...and the picture gets just gets plain scary. At the minimum, the scouts parents should provide 5 or 6 epipens for campouts...If this boy has had life threatening "events" the patrol may have to start with all new (peanut exposure free) kitchen gear to even hope to be safe...having the scout scrutinize what he eats just does not cut it...if he is one of the "really" reactive sufferers. You need all the information to make an informed decision. Sadly, Sometimes the unit might have to say "we can not manage the risk"...and wish a boy and his parents well. good luck anarchist

Welcome pixiewife, agree with B.W. on the cocoa...kids get enough sugar don't they? Try tosend a few packs of lipton or knor instant soup (not "cup of soup"). Try for low sodium (he probably gets enough salt in his regular menu...)You are looking mainly for tasty broth that he will drink and take the "chill off" without a salt or sugar over-load. I would also encourage the use of two piece rain suits rather than ponchos...better in storms, more comfortable and they can act as wind breakers in a pinch...even though I usually have a poncho stashed somewhere! love my headlight...so much better than flashes or lanterns! tip- have your scout flatten a partial roll of TP(enough for a few trips to the latrine) and put it in a ziplock...If he carries it on latrine calls he will not be ...um, disappointed if the camp staff underestimates the TP usage of hundreds of boys.... always a good idea to place two large plastic garbage bags in the bottom of his pack...work great for soaking wet items that might end up in your car for the trip home...and they are pretty good for camp trash if the patrols forget (works as a passable poncho in a pinch). by the way the pillow can be dropped...send a pillow case if necessary, and your boy can stuff with clothes, coats, sweaters etc.( he can even stuff his coat (probably 'wet') in a plastic bag and wrap that in his sweater or sweatshirt and have a nice pillow. Always look for ways to reduce bulk/weight and double utilize what you take... good scouting anarchist

Missing arrow, If the "set" includes the D.O. shown when I checked your web reference....that D.O. is problematic for outdoors chefs...the D.O. shown is a typical indoor (for oven use) piece of Iron (seems to have Lodges self-basting lid)...to be really useful, an outdoor D.O. needs a flat lid preferably with a raised lip to hold your coals....Just FYI anarchist

how many parents? As many as we can lay hands upon! As long as they get the training and "buy in to" our program. We are a medium sized very active troop. 40-55 boys currently our troop does: - a week at summer camp (30-40 boys including the New Scouts/brown sea program) - a "week" at high adventure camp (philmont/seabase, etc.) - a week long 100+ mile canoe adventure -several weekend canoe trips -a white water raft trip -two real cave crawling trips (courtesy of our grotto member dad) -three district camporees -three patrol only camping weekends (times 4/5 patrols) - two webelos training camps ("get to know us" events) -numerous eagle projects -on average 7-8 community service projects annually -6 troop car/truck campouts -two long distance hike camps -two fund raisers and I am sure I am missing somethings... Just one or two adults...simply could not handle it all...and keep a job and family together! A poor SM/ASM would be worked to death just attending these things let alone working with the scouts to deliver a good program...so our parents all pitch in and help...most wear ASM/Committee patches and have been through district and council traning. so I guess thats a good reason as any for adult help.... Anarchist

fundraising is getting old... on an average year our boys are asked to do two fund raisers for scouts (not including the FOS dance)... -then there is the candy bar sale for church -and the wrapping paper for PTA -then the fruit for the FFA - then the discount cards for the wrestling team - then the band dinner - then the christmas "stuff" sales for the high school "class" -then the work session in the stadium kitchen for the football boosters -then the mulch for the atheletic department -not to mention the donuts for the soccer team -or the drinks and popcorn for the cross country team... and of course dads check book for uniforms, shoes, new pads, travel and overnoights... families get hammered more and more to raise funds for the activities...is it any wonder why some of us would rather whip out a check book than face one more weekend (or longer) sales effort...frankly, I would rather be out camping and ask my sons to do extra work around the barnyard to pay dues (and other things) anarchist

JeffD, another way to do the "top" is cut in a bit of shortening, some brown sugar and "mashed" nuts (pecans, walnuts, almonds) into your cake mix -then sprinkle over fruit as before...yum... a fine and safe Thanksgiving

points to ponder... we ask each family to provide a few boxes of pasta and several homemade deserts...several scouts usually make a few cobblers out back, also. we hit costco for price breaks and buy sauce and meatballs and rolls in large sizes. we approach several large restaurants for "help" with industrial sized bags of salad...some is discounted some is "gifted". -local newspaper runs a story for us (we usually write it)-just before and usually afterwards -sandwich board advertizing out front two weeks in advance. -flyers at local stores, schools, churches, meeting halls fire stations etc. -fliers and pre supper newsletter story placement at the local Moose, Ruritans, Lions, VFW, American Legion and business/chamber of Commerce offices/halls -presales (tickets) in the communities and schools (we give top three salesman prizes). note: we use computer generated- two part tickets. The part returned to the troop with the payment has a salesman name blank to be filled in as well as a "customers" name/phone number...and is used to credit the "salesman" for the sale and is placed into a jar for a small door prize for the dining customers to win. It does seem to help with controling "lost" tickets. SPL works up the afternoon/evening duty roster (usually 2 -hour shifts) from the "volunteers" who sign up. Older scouts do the "at the door ticket sales", "host" and table assignment with escort service, younger scouts act as waiters, drinks and desert servers and bus boys and "spill getters"-(all in uniform -but without neckerchiefs) Parents and a few older scouts do the "cooking" and "dishing out"... Last shift is clean-up crew...while many of us work the entire afternoon and evening...Interestingly enough we never have trouble finding Volunteers for the clean up gang...scouts get to clean up leftover pie and lemonade for working the late shift and adults have quite a coffee "buzz" on by then and spend many pleasant hours in joint character assassinations (of folks who aren't there ;>0 )as we clean up the friendly mess. By the way we have more fun in the "clean up detail" than the other shifts and we always leave the fellowship hall better than we found it! good luck Anarchist