anarchist

German_Beaver, welcome, have a cup of joe and put another log on the fire... You may want to look at your council schedule for WELOT training also...since dollars to donuts your gonna be a WEBELOS leader anyway... The parents in your den will tell you what you 'luck level' is going to be...DO THEY WANT TO BE OUTDOORS????cause they gotta be there.... SOME GROUPS WORK GREAT...I was blessed with outdoor friendly parents who wanted to do it... We became a large family of woodsmen and women...Family camping outside of Pack /Scout camping...heck buy the end of our WEBELOS II year each family owned its own canoe...hows that for camp happy parents...but I have seen some dens that out side means the baseball or soccer field, period! Hikes are good, day long fishing trip to the local lake or pond with time for just playing in the "dirt", classes on camping with tent set up and meal prep are also fun...perhaps an overnight in a local back yard might be worked out as a test (under current BSA regs it might be tough but if ALL PARENTS ARE ON BOARD it can be done) BSA wants you in a BSA approved camp, trained etc. so be careful to dot the 't's and cross the "i"s. BUT don't do more than they can handle and don't force the issue...take time to "feel" your group along this outdoors stuff so you don't turn off some kids

We are not big on fund raising and do as little as possible, being "in the country" makes door to door tough! We have a couple of dinners/breakfasts that are 100% troop fund raisers and then shift to scout accounts. The boys opt in or out of these efforts and they get 100% of their individual sales effort if it is "door to door" type program. If it is, say, selling popcorn and drinks at the local festival they get a 'share' of the total profit based on the number of 'shifts' they work. (we allow double shifting only if there are more time slots than there are boys wanting to participate. The accounting system is a toss up...we are in the process of actually spliting these accounts off of the Troop account and starting a second account at a different Bank...just for Scout accounts.

Gosh, They must have used the same PR firm that Lyndon Johnson used in the late sixties! Iraq was not involved in 9/11, did not have WMDs and did not have a load of terrorist until Mr. Bush sent the patriot and brave Sgt Byron Norwood into Iraq. Its sad that we fill our sevices with fine, brave patriots and send them into an unnecessary wars, unprepared, under supported by their military and political leaders. Leaders who then use those dead bodies for political gain. Pray for the men and women in Iraq. Pray for our Country.

BelindaB, relax, you know your son and by this you will know all!...now that the zen lesson is over with...know that there are parents (usually Dads) that simply can't let their kids 'do' it!... Same Dads who will later buy junior his first car (a decked out, over horse powered, chick machine)...to prove their kid is cool. Let your son find his way...if he is very young turn the block into a triangle with a handsaw give him some sand paper and let him round the edges, choose a color (spray paint is better for shine) and have at it... If he is older you might want to let him try to use the hand saw...just lend a guiding hand...check internet for wheel and weight theory...it is interesting... story: I have two sons (both Boys scouts now) oldest is rather 'anal'...as soon as he could handle the saw it was HIS project...sanding, priming, sanding, repriming, sanding, painting, sanding,painting...clear coat, steel wool, clear coat.....weights to the third decimal point, only three wheels touching...smudge on the finish, more sanding...drving dad nutz! second son was on his on form of natural valium...ho hum, cut some corners off, throw so weight on it, wave the paint can it its general direction and put the wheels on...and he is good to go...in fact he did an 'ovaloid' car once and use flat brown paint,cause thats what was 'closest'...(dad has to admit it looked like a...oh well,) but they both had fun and over their cub 'lives' both won a derby and both finished in the top four a couple of times...but they did it the way they wanted and had fun... Years later I am still in the pack, as an assistant CM, and this year we had cars ranging from 'semi-pro' to 'disasters' and I did not see one unhappy racer...I think the unofficial races after the main event are as much fun as the pine wood! If your boy goes over the 'deep end' you have plenty of time to get a Dremel Tool for your birthday or next Christmas! good scouting!

nldscout, interesting concept (that the Council would have last word on a 'scout readiness' determination when council is not leading the Trek) but I doubt if you are correct on this one. I called my council office and the adjoining council ofice for a hypothetical...both answered with a few reservations (about talking it over throughly)and the old "it's hard to say 100%", that they would never force the leaders to take a scout deemed by the NJS troop leadership to be unable to perform, a danger or and undue liability to the unit. And my council office says it would consider itself to be a CO in the hypothetical "noted" example...same purpose and liability.....I wonder what other council folks would have to say...and as to your comment about having the jambo SM resign...hardly think Councils would go that far...those guys are not found hanging on trees! I for one, would not lead a trip to the bathroom with a scout I felt was not up to the trip...The other scouts and my family assets are too important to crash and burn for the sake of a bureaucrat...

What kind of institution is your CO??? What sources do you have for recuits...schools local churches etc.? That may be where you have to begin. How about the current eight boys have them make a list of their firends who are not in scouting...have an invite night, treats snacks, scouting presentation, show and tell stations (with typical crafts, activities pine wood cars etc and a typical craft activities for them all to try...can't hurt, takes lots of work... god bless and good luck

Foto- Our pack had the same reservations about fire sharp sticks and 'nutzo' kids (and Parents). We found that we can hold the pack campfire with skits and songs but without smores and sticks if we hold it early enough after dinner so the kids can then retire to den campfires... Then we can have their own DLs and parents watch over their own. We find that the smaller den fires have less of the 'hyper-kids feeding on hyper-kids' and it seems to work...just make the Pack camp fire a little earlier and a little shorter. Try it, you might like it...and after the little monst...er kids are safe in bed, the adults can gather around the camp fire and vote on whose kid was the most nutzo...(usually one of mine won)

Chicken Ranch, (forgive this long post) One of the toughest problems in scouting is training boys to be good leaders and it is especially true for the SPL/ASPL. I am sure you will (eventually, in this thread) hear a lot of...'if the boys fail the adults/troop failed the boys." So lets get cracking... BSA will not be nailed down to 'participation %' questions...nor will many of the members of this forum. But you have a problem you want to solve. Your troop committee and SM corp will need to agree that a problem exists and on the eventual solution. If they will not back the SM nothing will work... The SM along with a couple of ASMs will need to meet with the SPL and ASPL. A set of written goals, objectives and bench marks should be laid before the 'slackers'. The SM will have to work harder than just telling them what is expected, though. It should be made clear to the boys, that the SM will not sign off on their rank requirement (the PoR -Position of Responsibility) for these positions unless they meet the goals...make it a contract that they sign! If they will not commit, the committee should be prepared to back the SM if he finds need (for the good of the program) to remove these two young men from their positions. Keep in mind that they really may not know what is expected of them... First and foremost in our Troop is these POSITIONS (your two guys) have to coordinate their schedules to be sure one of them is at virtually every campout or activity...if your boys can not agree, they need to step down... NOW! We require every boy who stands for election to the green bar corps to agree before hand to make the commitment. I assume (?) you have, at least, a monthly PLC with weekly "tune-ups" 15/20 minutes before each troop meeting...if not get cracking! These allow the SM to keep the PLC and the Troop on track. For the day to day operations...make a list (it will be tedious), a step by step list of what the SPL and ASPL are expected to do for each meeting and activity. These 'what to do guides' are to be constantly acknowledged and progress reports relayed to the SM (email in our troop) or the phone works ...if the activities calls for two meeting worth of training the PLC sets up those meetings, instructors are appointed by the PLC and the instructors give the SPL written lesson plans in advance and the SPL updates the SM that he is meeting the 'schedule"...It is a pain but it works. And eventually they learn to do it...and the younger boys in the PLC see how it works so the next SPL knows more about what to expect. Set up this way, it is almost inpossible for the SPL to 'blow it', unless the SM doesn't keep the boy focused... We know it works, 'cause we had to do it after watching a series of 'lazy', failing SPLs and a burnt out SM...just marking time til his last son aged out. But it is critical that all youth leaders, PLs included, know they will be expected to participate in most activities and do their job or they do not get credit for being dead wood. One of our band new Eagles was shocked a year and a half ago when the SM showed him a list of their meetings and the duties he was asked to handle (and he had accepted) for his ASPL job... that he neglected, and a list of the meetings/campouts he missed...and further that due to his lack of interest, he was not getting a sign off for that PoR...Boy did he have to scramble like mad to find a new position and, by george, he has been at most of our activities, his attitude has changed and he has done his job! It can work but only if the ADULTS DO THEIR JOBS WELL. good luck! keep in touch!

Just guessin' here, but it sounds like you are 'offering' to merge the dens ? yes? I agree that you should talk with the CM and the other DL...so you don't step on toes...but some times there is a 'critical mass' factor and small den/patrols have trouble surviving without the 'right' number of scouts. Den of 2 or 3 boys have a harder time with games and activities, camping when they become WEBELOS will be more difficult and a merged Den of say 10 while big is still managable...particularly if the other Den leader comes along to help out.

DANGER! DANGER!, Will Robinson, DANGER! HAVE NOT SEEN ANYTHING IN THIS THREAD ABOUT THE TROOP THESE YOUNG SUPER-SCOUTS (SUPER SCOUT PARENTS?) (no offence meant) are looking to cross over to...??? Just as age, maturity, peer advancements and skill readiness are important factors perhaps more important is this simple consideration...will the troop be ready for your young scout? MOST IF NOT ALL troops plan their year and their activities to embrace the new scout patrols at a certain time in their "Scout Year". If your boys crossover on their "own schedule" they may not have a NEW SCOUT PATROL to move into...Our Troop (for instance) plans on crossovers from February to March, as most Packs in our district seem to follow this kind of program schedule...In the last two years we have had boys "show-up" in MAY (their Pack only meets 'part-time' and advancement follows suit) and in almost all cases the transition (only two months difference) has been more difficult and in EVERY case Summer Camp has been a big problem. There is a lot to be said about joining as a group, with your 'buds'...rather than being the newest and the youngest and being 'shoe horned' into a group of older boys with higher skills. The New Scout Patrol system is meant to ease Cubs into BOY SCOUTING and jump start them towards first Class. There is plenty of time to get to be a boys scout and earn an Eagle...and Uncleguinea aside, REALLY YOUNG EAGLES are generally not well respected unless they are exceptional young men. And this is not an age 'thing' so much as an experience 'thing'. (I recently heard two of our seventeen year old Eagles talking with one of our newly minted 18 year old ASM/Eagles about a 14 year old 'soon to be Eagle'..."yeah, he did finished the requirements but would you want to take him on a trek?") PLEASE, Think really hard about an early cross over...For my money I'd finish the Webelos II program, Have fun with it don't be in such a hurry, let them grow up a bit more. Over the last 12 years, I have seen more young "go getters' become "burn outs" than I care to think about and most of them were "doing it" for their dads! good luck, slow down, and have fun, they grow up way too soon!

eisely, Eamonn nailed that sucker on the head! (as usual) Critical elements for most insurance coverages are dates, destination and activity. Minor changes...number of scouts /driver changes (as long as the driver has appropriate insurance etc) do not cause the heart to burn as do the other noted factoids. Major Players...CPR, Safety afloat, Life Guards, and Trek leader should all be noted in a "corrected" Tour Permit Application if if it occurs the morning you are leaving! The FAX is a perfect way to do that...most Councils routinely handle Tour Permits by FAX so it is better to cover your...er bases...that way.

nldscout, Is there something special about a council troop going to Jambo??? The Trek guides always leave final make-up of the crew/team to the Trek Leader!?! are you saying that Council can force the participation of someone the leader feels is not up to a trip??? That seems to place unacceptable liability on the trip leaders, the troop and the CO?!!

DO the letter do the show! We do a parents meeting right after crossover and show the tape and the adult Youth Protection video to the parents. We have never had an opt out. The next week we show the scouts 'a time to tell'and have a discussion lead by a teacher (asm) and the SPL/ASPL...We do this every year and require all registered adults to view the tapes and do the Y.P. online...before they can go on an outing...

BSA stats show that the largest % of boys leaving the program are doing so from Cub programs meeting only twice a month. Dens in our Pack meet 3 or 4 times a month plus the pack meeting (some dens do not meet the week of the Pack meeting. Our Troop meets weekly plus our weekend activities (@2 per month). WE DO FIND THAT CUBS (and families) show meeting shock when they come from less intense programs and many do not adjust well. By meeting weekly I found that I had time to work on Arts/Crafts and advancement (meetings were 1 1/2 hours long) and have an opening game and a short ending game. All of my WEBELOS recieve AoL and most did 20 activity pins. I can say the same for my older sons Webelos den (I was not DL) and of those boys three have finish all but the letters and final write up of their Eagle Project and one is staring his Project in the face.

DEN8113 Hitting is not allowed...not even by the DL's son...and self defense is not a valid excuse. Unless you are prepared to hold your son to the same standard do not suggest or tolerate the use of force by anyone. As a Webelos DL I had two 'best' friends go at it at a campout...Hitter actually broke his hand on hittees face... We had a pow wow with the dads and the boys... apologies offered and accepted and then the Hitter was sent home. (we knew/figured his hand was broken.. wrapped his hand with a bag of Ice sent him on his way with a distressed Dad)... he thought I was too harsh...Boy is now a Boy Scout knows I do not tolerate violence and is frequently rewarded for showing Scout Spirit above and beyond"! After the appropriate 'first aid'/ blood staunching, was the time to address this matter...I hope it was. The 'hitter' should have been sat down across from the victim (assuming there was a victim) and the matter discussed with another adult present (and since your son was involved...the second adult or another DL should have been running the 'show' at that point. The boys should have been encouraged to find a solution and an appropriate way for the 'aggressor' to apologize. I would hope that the 'hitter' spent some time in the 'penalty box' with the adults -then and there(?)... Next, a meeting with the "hitter" and his Mom/Dad...and the Cub Master with the DL and ADL present...to make it absolutely clear that hitting is not an option and the next occurance (if there is one) will be cause for more drastic action. Document this with the CC. In our Pack (and Troop) the next step (sanction), assuming we are talking about 'the one hit' type fight and not a brutal pummelling... is a requirement that mom is at any and all meetings and activities the boy attends. No Mom = No Boy. But please never encourage your son to resolve conflict with violence...it just has no place in scouting... just walk away and find an adult or in Boy Scouts the SPL

Tmillerfamily, these things are never easy.... Sorry but there is little in the ASA to help you in this...the location of the event seems to have nothing to do with your 'problem' It appears that the 'unit' is making the decission...More important, and I know this is hard to take as a parent; Your position and tactic on this is wrong. Advocating for ones children is important, but at what cost to the others? What if the trek leaders do not feel if they can accept or handle the added responcibilities? What if a problem does arise? Should the other boys on the trek have to endure the results? The Adults leading a trek have plenty of problems and pressures without the added issues they may think will need to be addressed if your son attends. Now before you take offense, have you volunteered to go as your sons "AID"?...it could be all you need to do to take the weight off their shoulders. If you are unable or un-willing to assist your son, why should they and the others on the trip need to take on the extra responcibility? Sometimes in our quest to squeeze the most out of life for our children we forget the other children in the situation. Our troop has several ADD scouts (including one of mine) Sometimes this presents a problem, many times we have lots of parent aids going on trips...with bags of meds). There are things some of these boys can not do.... But let me flip the situation on you...Last Year our troop sent a crew to SEABASE, I really wanted to go...but due to some health issues I could not really pass the Class III physical...though I could have breezed through a local clinic to get the form signed...(All who went said I could have breezed through SEABASE...) but my answer was, and still is the same..."the chance of an unfortunate 'event' ruining the trip for the crew simply was not something I had a right to 'impose' on the rest of the guys". Give it some thought...are you right in this?

Being big on training, our troop purchased the VHS and then the DVD (before the council scout shop knew it existed on DVD). We show Y.Protection videos at parents meetings and for troop leaders annually. New ASM/committee members must watch soon after doing the paperwork. Our CO has a video 'set-up' in one of the rooms we can use...(DVD has some glitches but it's ok. Additionally we REQUIRE all Scouters to do the Youth protection annually on line. The boys (once a year) also sit through their own version of youth protection while we show their parents the tapes.

This thread truely was a set up for a BS session...no one can win and while it makes a great read... its is like me; a pinko, commie,mealie mouth liberal democrat trying to get some of my neo con, facist, GOP friends to vote for John Keary...'taint gonna happen... but I do feel the need for a factual correction; Eagledad, your statement about our laws being derived from or Judeo-Christian driven... is unfortunately, untrue. Most of the concepts of even the ten commandments were/are found in other cultures and religions. Most American Christians fail to recognize or believe this but it is true...just like the Christian 'co-oping' of holidays...That does not mean the rule or law is wrong just that someone worked it out before Christians did... Many instances exist of these codified rules long before Moses climbed the mountain...so please refrain from repeating...a non fact.(This message has been edited by anarchist)

see below(This message has been edited by anarchist)

coed Explorer Post, river trip...now thats a scary thought! as the father of a girl crazy 17 year old, show-off...I'd be terrified!

Youngest son was a dragon...before he was a invisible indego flying squirrel... WE are Dragons, we're the best We breathe fire on the rest!...followed by a roar flag was easy....

Our bears started with showing knowledge and demonstrating safty requirements then with lots of space between ...onto opening and closing and oiling and then sharpening in about February... Just before the Webelos 2 cross over. (all of this had to be done outside of the normal meetings because we normally met on school property and knives are a no no... the sharpening is important 'cause some of the crappy knives couldn't cut butter and a dull knife is much more dangerous than a shape knife so the DL gets to see what they are working with. then we did some 'one on one' using BOY SCOUT mentors (the troop Den Chiefs and some of their buds) s l o w l y doing things to a couple of bars (per boy) of IVORY soap (best for carving). even after earning the card they could only bring their knife if the activity called for it (like practicing cooking and Food Preparation) and NEVER to regular meetings. time enough for cut fingers when they are boy scouts!

mjengels, are you ready to become defacto den leader??? that maybe what it takes...I stepped in when my younger sons DL could not control the little angels and parents (those who stayed)just sat down and watched and chatted... Get the 'program helps' for the den from the Cub Master or District level if CM is clueless and make out a calendar game plan... sneak up on the DL with an offer to be the assistant and 'oh by the way let me plan the next meeting'.... use the meeting/rules making but have a game to play both during the before meeting 'gathering time and near the end of the meeting and have an appropriate rank related craft or activity to do ...and and the candle method is nice I had forgotten about it (five years out of 'Denning')...the 'quiet technique I used , and it was part of the relationship I built with the boys, was to stop the meeting and ask the boys to 'drop and give me ten '(or twenty as they got older)... The boys actually thought it was "kinda cool", in fact the first night back their Webelos 1 year, when I called for the pledge, oath, law etc. as they finished... they all dropped and gave me twenty as an 'inside joke'...I was impressed..though a couple of moms were distressed...oh well

little grasshoper I feel your pain... part of BSAs 'policy' is philosophical...about put boys in the situation of practicing to hurt each othe (see paint ball) Mostly I think it is a liability issue...you know the lawyers.... On the demo side...be careful! About 12 years ago I set up a demo at a non-scouting event.. and the 'crowd pleaser' was to be the old 'breaking the planks' with arms/hands/feet etc. Long story short...a fluke...a piece of plank shot out like a knife and hit an onlooker in the face...$15,000 settlement later was very painful... and shooting sports are limited to archery and BB's...with a rated instructor and safty range.... no?

Aardvark, Actually, you have given me a good place to jump in here...And I understand your reading of the thread though it not what anyone intended. Having one son teetering on the brink of Eagledom and younger son (star) just looking for a way out of scouting...it appears that I am on the cusp of having no boy in scouting...but wanting to continue...my version of SWMBO thinks I will be viewed with the "evil eye" a few years down the road with no boys 'in' the troop and most of my contemporaries having left when their boys "aged out" and I am sorely conflicted...