anarchist

What Fuzzy said! Investigate! determine first if he needs help/accommodation before you offer...Counseling sometimes is all it takes, If he can over-come his 'different ablitity' issue and do it himself, think of the accomplishment! Don't be in a hurry to take that away from the lad... MANY BOYS DON'T FINISH EAGLE until the 11th month (or 12th) of their 17th year...I have heard about Eagle boards the night before a boys birthday... Be Prepared, but besure it is his 'difficulty' that is the issue and not just good ol'fashion american laziness! (warranting no intervention) I think FUZZy has it just right! good luck(This message has been edited by anarchist)

I am unclear as to what cubs would need scout accounts for??? Den level activities? Resident camp for Bears and Weblos 1s? Our pack tries to keep fund raising to a minimum..it is such a drag and the kids now days are always selling something for something... so why scout accounts??

SWScouter, don't know your program so I don't know what you offer but I can offer some observations (being in Boys Scouts noe and five years out from my last Webelos 'patrol'. First...many Cubbie leaders have not previous scouting back ground and it appears that because of this cub scouters seem to have a lower % of truely 'dedicated' (wrong word, i know!?) SCOUTERs. No offence is intended here, it is just an observation that the longer you are in the more you seem to 'get with the program' ...it seems to grow on you...(like a fungus). Wanting to do it right I started with the council WLOT training when I was a Bear DL...(my older son had a great Webelos experience and I wanted to try to match that for my younger son...) IT WAS WITHOUT ANY RESERVATION THE BEST BSA TRAING CLASS I HAVE EXPERIENCED...it seemed that for the first (and only) time 100% of the material was usable, and pertinent as well as fun! I was an 'outdoors guy' and ended up teaching more than learning but the material was what a WEBELOS DL needed...( I was invite to staff the next class) Then I went to round table...what a drag...only one or two DLs per meeting! The breakout leaders were un-interesting, only half prepared, and the best discription I could use would be 'office drones'. One woman teaching oudoors skills camped at the Webelos weekends in a camper...with heat! What a sport! What an example! Material was mostly what we could not do and not what we could do! oh yes, and handing out copies of program helps. Knowing that sometimes larger groups generate excitement, I suggested our breakout leader make an effort to sell the program to the Packs in the District. She told me that the people who needed to come... would come...and she didn't have time to spend chasing the rest of us around... Each meeting seemed like a TV soap opera, not he steamy part... the part where each month seems to be the same as last month and if you missed three months...you didn't seem to miss anything... Month five I stayed home for important stuff, I think I waxed my canoe! Never went back... Now that my mini rant is over (forgive me) FScouter and foto scout offer good suggestions: 1). Get District RT leaders to really PUSH webelos leader training and your breakout sessions to the Cub Mastes and the Assistant Cub Masters 2). Get your program listed and detailed on the district web site. 3). Get a list of the Webelos DL AND THE BEAR DEN LEADERS and/or their email addresses (you might have to hit the Pack leaders for this)...then start email conversations with them. 4) Try to rope in a partner to team teach at each breakout...if you have a lot of folks show up you might need to break the group in two sections ...so be prepared...but more to the point if you have to miss a night, you have a back up to keep the program going! It might even be a neat idea to put a copy of your 'lesson' in the Round table month pack mail package as long as it doesn't break the bank. (does your district use this info distribution system at RT?) Then at least, the information gets out to the Cub Master... If you are really pyschotic you might want to start attending some Den Meetings to get the word out... Give the Bear DLs update and get them into training at the end of the bear year... just some thoughts.. thank you for what you do to help.

I like wool also! hats, socks, shirts...its great! I am guessing the high tech long johns you acquired are for active wear (and are good for little but sweat transport to the outer levels) Many high-tech layering systems are made with activity levels 'in mind' some are utterly worthless unless you are doing cross-country skiing or running...and then, seconds after you slow down you start getting chilled...I tend to favor the heavy duty polypro in expedition weight...(for sitting around without freezing ones ...er... buns off) Duo fold (?) also makes a heavy weight wool blend set that is great for light exercise...like watching scouts (and the coffe pot) at play. Gloves, I have a real clunky pair that my nephew gave me a few years ago for hunting. They are polar-tech mittens but the mitten folds back and reveals light polartech gloves...works pretty well for trigger work, opening the coffee bottle and rooting through my pack...and when the finger start getting cold you fold them back down...(you can also slide a small chemical heater ito them and get real cozy...but they do look kind of clunky. for pants you might want to try wind/rain pants like runners use over polartech liners and your long johns...unless you are busting brush ( what kind of k-9 is Rory?) you may find that system much lighter and warmer (almost like wandering around in sweats)and save your gore-tex to boot! If brush is a factor, try upland hunting pants the legs have a front thorn shield/wind break fabric but they are made for walking. filison makes a northwoods style wool cap with visor and fold down, lambs wool lined ear-muffs that is really nice though I usually wear an old hunting hat and a poloypro neck gaitor (its like a turtle neck), that you can pull it up over your ears or nose or up over the top of your head and use it as a hood...I carry one on campouts to wear at night instead of a wool watch cap...they are great...again a little dorky but great in function! Hope you and Rory stay comfortable! hike on!

so? what we have? is a policy of letting units fend for themselves, and then when (in fairness to the boys following 'the unit rules') a unit tries to hold a scout to 'those rules', National pulls the rug out from under them?!? great system... perhap the sports coaches do have it right...show up 100%... or you are off the team! better idea?.. give the boy his money back and tell him to find a new troop?...both leave a bad taste don't they.

ScoutMaster Ron, National? Answer in writing? What have YOU been smoking?...and if it does respond chances area second responder from National would give you a different 'interpretation".. good luck! Active ain't just paying dues!

Balderdash! Eamonn, you are not a traditionalist...you are a good scout and you are right! Knots are not old school! And should never be allowed to be forgotten! Eamonn, in First Aid and wilderness training the bowline is the primary rescue Knot...Thats why it came up! (it is not the knot of choice for pioneering)...It is a truely life saving tool to have! And while I wish i could write like Fuzzy Bear (man he's good) but we don't allow 'no little metal things' on our campouts! ...our boys use tautline (or a 'pully knot") on dining flys and tents at every campout and canoe trip! All scouts first class and above should know the basis scout skill knots, period. And while our BoRs can't test... the SM makes sure that no STAR, LIFE or Eagle candidate is presented unless he knows the knots...cold cause he tests in the SM conference cycle. I do not agree that we are adding to the requirements for rank rather we are simply holding the boys to that standard...in and by ... the book! and Fuzzy Bear, Go build your log cabin...find a piece of land about to be paved over (progress don't cha know) and ask the owner for his permission to take a few trees...many will let you thin the place out (we do this for pioneering staves). Farmers can usually be talked into it also...it is then not about conservation in the outdoor LNT sense but conservation of wood that would be used for other purposes! Let me hear you yell TIMBER!

guess BSA marketing would have to place ads on Will and Grace??? though my vote would be for 2&1/2 men...or is that too politically incorrect? (JUST JOKING HERE!)

BEANS ....good old green beans... and use clear plastic 'old fashion' style 'glasses'. have each boy plant say three bean seeds 'equi-distances' around the side of the glass so they can see the seed as it sprouts and even watch root growth...my den loved it...might want to put a table spoon or three of fish tank gravel so the guys don't drown their beans.... and they can set them out this spring and eat a few beans this summer!

Balding Leader, How good is your SPL? Four years ago I watched one of our SPL's handle this problem...without any counseling fom our SM...he invited the patrol to the next PLC (without the presence of the ostracized scout) He allowed the patrol to participate in the meeting and when the new business section came up he asked the biggest and most likable boy in the partol to wait out side and 'sent' the unaware SM to keep him company...for the next three or four minutes nothing was said...at all...then he started a discussion about what the boy in the hall might be feeling, having been sent out of the room and not allowed to participate...He let the boys know that they had let not only him (SPL) down but let themselves down by not living the scout law and by not coming to him when they felt overwhelmed...He then brought the boy back into the room and continued the discussion... He finished by letting them know in no uncertain terms that this was HIS troop and they could not 'kick' the boy out...and he expected them to think of the boy as a little brother who needed help...and he then offered to spend as much time in their patrol as needed to help...it worked for many months. The boy was still a problem but the scouts knew they needed to step up to the plate and try to be a friend not a judge... I was astounded and awed by this boys ability (he suffered debilitating headaches frequently and still had the compassion to help others) However, sad to say, at summer camp that next summer their 'little brother' pulled his pocket knife out and threatened to 'stick' another scout... but try to help these boys see the effects of shunning...and that there are better ways... Incidentally, my oldest son was in that patrol the SPL had to 'work on'...and they learned well, especially my son...when later they were faced with a 'problem' child...they elected him patrol leader (even though he was really not running) that way he had to 'answer' to the SM, SPL and others... actually turned the guy around! good luck....

Our Pack gives 'I did my best' ribbons and patches for many things...PWD car constuction, regatta contruction, first long hike, cake baking(for the Dad and Lad auction at the B&G)Gooosh think of the possiblities! den craft making on and on!

here i go stepping on toes again! Speaking of the Boy Scouting program (not Cubs)...yes, the uniform is a problem...MANY boys would rather not 1-wear the whole uniform, 2-wear the green pants, 3-wear the neckerchief (both my guys hate the neckerchief) or 4-hate the hat....does it matter? probably not much... Program, Program, Program, put a good one together, tell them what the requirements are, and most will, at least, grudgingly comply....some will even like it. Militarist?..whats wrong with the military anyway? If you want mushie..join the glee club (sorry to all you singers...and before you scream, yes, I was a Scout and a chorus/glee club member). As I tell any boy who will listen, the uniform has a place in their(our) organization, and just as in team sports... it is important for many different reasons. Unlike others in this thread, I know there is a loss of a certain % of boys because of the uniform. I make a point of asking many boys as they start 'falling away' from scouting and the answer frequently is "my friends think scouting is '___' "(you fill in the term used here), or I don't want anyone to know I am a scout... This is a shared problem... BSA leaders, the parents, the society as a whole AND the BOY share equally in the existance of this problem. In the end, NOT every boy is ready for the challenge of scouting...I hear it 'from district' over and over..."scouting is for every boy but not every boy is for scouting"...I wish there was a good way to overcome this issue...but all we can try to do is; keep on trying.

I am toying with the idea of 'gifting' a software package to the troop for generating Topo maps (orienteering, hikes, canoe trips etc.) Having looked at TOPO, National Geographic, and Delorme, have any of you done this (been there and bought the tee shirt)? Pros ? Cons? Best? one of our weekend canoe trips takes seven USGS quads! have one or two good maps is the goal!

I was just gonna let this one go but there are some things dribbling about that I want to point out... first Vicki, I was not shouting, I was emphasizing... Re-read your first post, quoting here, "I came up with...how BSA might accomodate ...diaAbilities, for my diversity ticket...for example lifesaving would probably not be possible....I already have the technical path to get alternative merit badges worked out..." Seems to be lots of "I's" there for a boy who is not even a Boy Scout yet... what i was trying to say is -slow down, don't take the low road first...(is that quiet enough for you) and see what he can do before you tell him there is a easier way...but you seem (by your post) to have the easier way worked out already...five years before it is needed...thats all. ALL dwarfs are not the same and if and maybes are not relevant. What is and what can be are what is important. Get the horse before the cart... Do we need to assume that if the program can not be molded to accomodate an EAGLE outcome for this boy the program is a waste? seem like it...If he can do several great years of scouting and only make star or life..its a waste of his time??? Is that from his parents fears or yours??? This country is full of well meaning educators and parents who want everything dumbed down so that perfectly normal kids will all excell ...not do alright but excell!(at least in the i feel good department). Many of us feel that is not in the best interests of scouting...so if we mis-read forgive us...but before you give the kid a break give him a real break...let him try to work it himself... you can help, if he needs it, but Boy Scouting is boy led and advancement is boy led and motivated...adults need to beware but also stand back a bit. Recall the admonition about the road to 'heck' and good intentions... Semper Paratus... your hit on foto was also off base...being surrounded by teachers i see it almost daily...there is a difference between most 'parents' and parents of 'differently-abled' children. Most of the later are great advocates by necessity...for their children...if the question has come up a year plus out from boys scouts do you suppose it was dropped on vickie buy a driveby rabbit? While I admire the intent, I am worried about the results of prejudging the boy before he has had a look at the course... Just look at what has happened in the inner city (and elsewhere) education system in this country... know I stepped on toes here but it seems to need to be done sometimes....And the ticket punching love fest is just too sweet! (sorry, couldn't resist...but i did'nt shout!)

LOVE THE RAIN GUTTER! TAKE LOTS OF PICTURES...easier to do than the PWD. UNLESS YOU HAVE A VERY SMALL PACK SET UP AT LEAST 4 if not six gutters....more time for more racing! check the web sites and see which elimination or rotation your parents feel most comfortable with before you select...at least get several points of view before you decide... Over the years we have settled into a double elimination by dens to get the top eight boats or ten boats and then run a second set of races for top in the Pack...(this is a SATURDAY activity with family lunches etc...not normal pack meeting!)

As my username 'implies' I don't particularly cotton to rules... My two cents...change or rewrite your rule a bit. Our troop only requires uniforms for SMs, and ASMs. It encourages Committee members to 'wear the colors' with the offer of free patches (committee chair, committee member, COR, unit numbers, council patches, knots etc.). But we don't require registered committee members or merit badge counselors to wear uniforms. We have never had to deal with the issue of an unregistered adult wearing a uniform...I probably would just slide up to the person and hand them on of our applications and a pen and offer to help them fill 'er out!... and keep doing that until the victim gave in or gave out! I can be very annoying...just ask my boys.

baschram645 what they all said! though, I would hate to be a SM and have to find time to vist the homes of our 30 new New Scout Patrol Members last year. Plus do the troop thing and have a family life... nice for a small troop hard for a larger troop unless you delegate... PM me and I'll ship you a few letters and equipment lists that we add to the packet... We do our 'official' info swap at the first parent meeting rather than the boys cross over although we have most of the infomation on our web site and will give parents temporary pass-words to check us out (and we have been working with the Webelos at several events so must of the 'work' has been done already. At cross-over, we have already gotten back the Scout application and fees...to be ready for recharter and we have found that the material packet seemed to get lost in the one week between the two meetings!

not to rain on your parade but concentrate on rank and arrow points first belt loops are extras...you don't want to short him on rank progress...we have seen boys suddenly find their Wolf or bear year ended and not nearly finished with the requirements...and depending on the pack they then do not get the patch...ever...also make sure you don't make it a burden on the boy...keep it FUN! good scouting

Heck guys all that shirt is ...is a middle quality fishing shirt...I have four that are for flyfishing (non BSA) that now go on all my camping/canoe trips and this Christmas was give a camo version...for Summer. They are the most comfortable shirts you can own... get the long sleeve variety! They have sleeve tabs so they will not 'unroll' on you... but if your arms start feeling a little burned you can roll 'em down and prevent further 'damage'...something a short sleve shirt can't do. I doubt if they are the uniform shirt of the future...just something for taking a few more bucks from your wallet....

Vickie, Before you sell this boy short (sorry, I couldn't resist)...remember he has lots of time...He will grow in strength and maturity if nothing else. DO NOT LIGHTEN THE LOAD IN ADVANCE! Young men continue to surpise me year after year. Let him determine what he can and can't do...as he progresses. He WILL surprise you. If you start lowering the bar early and needlessly you short change the young man before he even finds out what he can do...give it time...he does not have to earn his EAGLE in one or three years...let him tackle what he can early and then make adjustments. NEVER SET THE BAR TO LOW...if he does aim high he may be able to hit the stars, but if you aim low...can he do anything but follow your lead? GIVE HIM THE CHANCE.

ehcalum, I think you need to trot over to the University Book Store...Francis Scott Key penned 'One Hundred bottles of Beer on the Wall' in 1812 (using a well know British beer drinking song...He didn't write "Take Me out to the Ball Game" until the eve of the 1822 World Series, when the Georgia Plow Dogs lost in extra innings to the New York Bankers) Has the U stopped teaching History or what? anarchist But I believe fairness...if you can't insult everyone, insult no one!

Eamonn, Glad to hear you are shaking the 'blues'. Try to remember...the boys are why we do this and keep you 'calendar open to get a healthy 'dose' of kids, frequently..... when you fly with the eagles it harder for the turkeys to get you down! anarchist

We have a great deep sliding, mud crawling, chimney climing, rappelling, bat dwelling Caving trip, a 100 mile canoe trip and two crews going to Florida Sea Base Its gonna be a great year!

I have pitched this one around the diamond a couple of time and see both sides...However I am gonna give the 'economist answer'...on the on hand...and on the other hand.... I have seen many, many of our scouts finish in the later months of their 17th year...and wanting the 'max' out of their CoH with family attendance etc., hold off for months when scheduling their own CoH. The result is most of these boys never officially wear their Eagle patch on their Uniform...They age out and/or become ASMs. So (on one hand) if the Scout has many moons left in his scouting career...let him wait for his CoH...if (on the other hand) He is a short timer, give him the patch and either have him take it off and re-attach his Life badge or just 'award' him his certificate and medal... what ever the case...I don't think he should be denied, however, if he wants to start wearing it as soon a national approves what ever his situation...its his EAGLE!

Boys can get two awards at one Pack meeting ...plus loop and arrow points etc... In our Pack awards are a big part of every Pack meeting. We rotate dens but typically we give any awards and patches to the tigers, then the wolves, bears and Webelos... Den Leaders have notified me the 'awards guy' (I am not the advancement chair...but I go by the Scout shop couple times a week due to my work). I have the awards bagged in snack-size Zip Locks (to help the boys not lose everything from the meeting to home) and the CM calls each boy receiving a rank award and their parents (den members are called up with parents...pictures etc and dismissed...boys recieving awards from the next den are called up w/parents etc....) we then give out miscellaneous patches individually or den by den as called for... you call up the boys who earn special We make a big thing of advancement...it is good for the boys to know their work is appreciated (it is the main reason I started being the "awards guy"... so they would get their awards). Are you using the immediate recognition system? It's great for motivating some boys.