anarchist

troop24spl, The patrols need to be 'taught' that they can do their own things...This is a prime reason for using the PLC wisely and often (monthly or more)...Ideas need to be tossed out to the boys and then they need to be encouraged to reach higher. It is far easier to 'start' your 'patrol year' with patrol weekends already scheduled on your annual Troop activity planning calendar (example...troop camp, patrol activity, troop camp, district camporee, patrol activity, troop trip, patrol event...(one or two 'events' each month), etc.). This planning calendar may start out to be no more than 'suggested patrol activities' or even just 'open'weekends where each patrol is expected to come to the PLC with an event plan by 'x-date' to be approved by the SM and SPL... Adults need to stand ready to support these activities just as they would a troop activity. The patrol parents are needed to help even more than at troop events...This transition will collapse back in on the patrol if adults are 'too busy' to transport or otherwise support these efforts... As with any new endeavor a considerable amount of subtle guidance and 'failure avoidance efforts' are needed. In the beginning you can not just say to the patrol leaders..."go plan and execute a patrol campout...dismissed"! The troop leadership needs to gauge the skills and 'qualities' of the patrol leaders being asked to do this work and offer support, suggestions, resources and even deadlines for progress reports to assure that procrastination is not allowed to kill the effort. It can be done, after the calendar is set, however it is just harder to do so...family plans are made adults schedules are more 'set' and it is easier for all to say..."gosh, there is just no more time available"...start on a small scale...maybe even 'sacrefice' a troop 'event' or campout and change it to a patrol weekend...but you won't start...unless you start...so get going! good luck anarchist

Seems in this thread we see once again, folks want to overhaul an organization to fit their views instead of going out and forming their own group...the "we want to play in you game... but by our own rules crowd"(?) EagerLeader, I do not presume to invite you to explore or sample religion...of any sort, and I like many here feel some of your pain at feeling the need to leave the BSA family...but it is your choice, one of many we make each day of our existence...BSA has God 'in place' in the oaths and in the literature and in it's program...This should not be 'missed', nor need to be hammered home...it simply is... on a personal note: I left the 'brotherhood of faith' a long time ago (after my scouting experience) and had serious doubts as to the existence of either 'goodness' in the world or a higher power (other than nature or man)... The birth of my first child brought me back,... the hour he was born...I could not deny nor even doubt the existance of something higher...at that moment it was no longer possible for me to disbelieve...and almost 18 years later I still know there is a God...after all, he gave me two sons to punish me for doubting (and to reward me for believing) YiS anarchist oh yes, EagerLeader; as to your childrens desire not to explore religion...When I asked my children to sample religions and faith they gave me a similar answer...'no way, we want to; watch tv, play, go fishing, sleep in, play video games...the same answers they gave about going to the doctor, the dentist, or to school! As a parent, I wonder where the line should be drawn in our obligation to expose, educate and prepare our children for the world and their future...is a child's answer always right?(This message has been edited by anarchist)

Lets see...Well first I would have to find a new home for the troop....then I would have to do some serious recruiting as we would loose about 50 to 60% of our scouts...just on the homosexual issue alone...sad but true if I gage our families well... Personally, after finding a new meeting place..(by the way SemperP, in your dream, does BSA also pick up rent and utilities or do the homosexuals and atheists fund those items?- something to think about ...seeing as how Churches VFWs and American Legion's etc., provide a large % of meeting halls!)...I'd keep on scouting... Scouting has a lot to offer besides God and Sexual orientation but thankfully, I don't see your 'dream' becoming one of our new nightmares... but yearly I have to encourage VERY RELUCTANT young families to send their boys to Summercamp all because they are worried that two deep is not enough! And then to follow up your question...with one I 'posited' before... Is it(?), or will it be fair to cause a large number of families, Churches and others to withdraw from scouting in order to Validate a very few members of our society?... So 'they' can feel good, we make others (already in our program) feel bad??? Interesting 'ethical' choice is it not?

MMEE! MMEEE! MMEEE! I want to be the first on my block to have the official memebrship card and decoder spell check ring and the "BSAlove it or leave it" simulated metal lapel pin (can mine be in gold?) oh no... problem here...can't get my wife to let go of the darned credit card...uuhh....eeerrrrrr, let go dang it, just let go...Bob said to mail the credit card....he'll send it back....really he will....

Snake Eater, (by the way they taste like chicken) I like EagleInKy's methodology...most of out boys now have 20 degree bags and nice fleece 'liner' bags...they use the fleece bag for late spring, summer and early fall, (sometimes with a sheet as a topper in sticky heat. the 20 degree bag is fall winter eary spring and the fleece is used to 'pick up an extra 10 degrees' by using the two bags together as a "system" on reallty cold treks... But if its too hot for the 20 degree bag...leave it home! Take a lighter bag (a sheet or second fleece blacket as needed) and a pad...less bulk! size/style bag? One son likes mummy, one likes rectangle...I like my 20 degree coleman nylon and synthetic rectangle...depends on how warm/cold blooded you are (take less body heat to warm up the mummy bag)and how much you like to move around in your 'bed'. Bought both regular adult (not tall) sizes and it has worked well.

First I am not a CPA, (so all you bean counters correct me if I am mistaken)...but you need to realize that a tax ID number (IRS EMPOLYER ID number)...does not convey tax exemptions on any "donations"...You would have to figure out a way to get registered as an educational not-for-profit (501-c3) to be able to 'offer' benefactors a tax exemption or write off....that means, establishing a corporate entity rather than a 'scout troop'... some States exempt Scout units in their sales tax legistation for your purchases but even there many stores do not know how to deal with that issue...but they understand how to deal with a church tax number (if your CO is a church)... For donations under $500 IRS does not usually require a reciepted statement but the troop itself should not imply that donations are TAX EXEMPT...you would be on much better ground to have the funds funneled through your C.O. if that is an option. Getting an I. D.# is a couple a minutes worth of paper work sent to IRS...getting '501-C3' is a different story..as in "you need an attorney or at least a good CPA...or both" As SemperP posted a better bet is use the CO's number if that group is exempt(This message has been edited by anarchist)

Fred, thanks for the input but to clarify...no where in my post did I say (and I am confident no one in the troop SAID) families were not welcome...nor that parents were not welcome... but what WAS said at some get-together was 'probably' (remember, I was not part of the recruiting and I am getting info second and third hand... by a well meaning ASM) was that 'on most of the big campouts, parents could not expect to go along'... which currently is an objective and truthful statement of what we have seen this year... For more "background", we have a very heavy outdoor program...which we 'hard sell' to the boys. Many months there are two events and some months three ...we do several high adventure activities for older boys; (caving, 100 mile canoe trips, rock climbing), several 'mid-level things, short canoe trips, fishing camps and district camporees, and for the NSps intro campouts, bike hikes day events, treks to museums and short hikes. Then of course, there is Summercamp and usually one or two crews (each year) go off to one of the national high adventure programs (Forida Sea Base is our current favorite) But we have 4 or 5 Troopwide "just-plain-ol'-good time-everyone-wants-to-go" events that the kids love ( 11 year olds as well as the 17 yr, 11 month and 29day old scouts) ...and year in year out the boys want these camps on the calendar...but now the numbers don't work if we include a large group of parents...without leaving boys behind... I can fill up avaiable campsites with scouts and have no room for adult leaders and drivers if I am not careful... granted these folks did get a 'feeling' that they were not welcomed with open arms...and I see that as an unfortunate but correctable mistake the troop can handle...I am not sure I would have done any better...(but I know it can be done better)...My underlying question however is still; how can we continue (or can we continue?) to offer what the boys want without turning off some parents...do we really have to break up what the scouts feel are 'signature' team/troop building really cool events (into Patrol activities) to avoid hurting feelings or do you think it can it be finessed by careful measured explaination... thanks for all the 'hits' keep them coming anarchist

before I started my last thread I tried to search also....ZIP!

scoutingagain, and all... program interest is not hard to generate! The boys tell the PLC what they want to try, or to do, and where they want to go! Working with what has generated good times in the past and the new interests, the SM corps sits down with the SPL and the PLC with their observations and helps our boys to design a working calendar... and the Adult Troop Committee 'supports' this effort as best we can...rather than tell them they can't go because "there is no room at the Inn". ...but it sounds like most here, think we are wrong...and should start over? perhaps our campout policy should be....Unless all family members can be worked into the program...it can't be done??? interesting, once again.. keep the thoughts coming!

First and formost this is a CO and COR issue...if it is an issue at all... In many units there is a family that 'takes over' and runs things the way that is most appropriate for them...is it right? no but it is more common than we like to admit and when the super family finally moves on these units often fail and fold up tents... If the SM (hubbie) and the CC see no problem you have a major problem...If the COR and CO see not problem you are 'DOA'...So I would count number of families on each 'side' and if you have the 'numbers' ask for a meeting with the CO...be prepared to find another pack... numbers do count but to win you generally have to have numbers on you side when you start...The CO owns the Pack...if they are happy the row you have to hoe is exceedingly long (and HOT!) best of luck.

Keep them coming... but don't miss the point of the problem...(BW) why is it a bad decision? (OGE)it is not that they can't help or be trained registered leaders... the more the merrier...it 'is' that they can not be assured to go on any particular campout... and sorry to say, we can't take every one on every event...many campsites have finite 'body'limits ...and (acco40)... I am happy to say that on most of our troop events many of our older scouts want to come too! Most of our troop events are exciting and fun... Example: Assateague Island National Seashore has 5 (FIVE) group camp sites on the beach 'side'. Each 'site' is limited to 25 (TWENTY FIVE) campers. They start taking reservations on "X" day and by "X" plus ten minutes 'half' of the sites are booked for any given weekend...(Sea Base anyone?) Last Year we had a 'limit' of 50 bodies...(two group sites booked)! So do I take 25 scouts and the 25 parents who wished to tag along? Do I lie and put 75 people on a site designed for 50? Are you really saying that our older boys (or our younger boys) don't want to be together at Assateague? Or don't go? Gettysburg, McMillian Woods group camp- we would need to win their 'lottery' for about half the campsites available on any given weekend to take all the parents who would like to go... Same way with our white-water rafting weekend (and few outfitters could handle 100 folks from the same unit....) Or the Marine Corp Base/lake we visit...or our AP Trail camp weekend.... We should break the boys out (for remember a troop, not patrol event) and do smaller(?) troop activities for the benefit of adults who want to go camping with the troop...interesting?!! like I said keep them coming(This message has been edited by anarchist)

howdy folks... While the title is a "little over the top" I hope enough read and respond to give me a host of ideas! Situation: Our Troop has just taken in nine new scouts, three boys (each) from three different packs...A good thing! A bad thing?.... One of our committee Members, who was also the Cub Master of one of these packs, was surprised (shocked was more like it) when the other five boys in his younger son's Webelos II den 'elected' to go to a newer troop...closer to their homes and a natural 'graduation' troop for their pack... at the last minute...even though the boys themselves all seemed to want to come to our troop. (note: last three out of three Cub Masters from this pack have become Adult leaders with our troop) Situation: Last year (March 2004), our troop grew from 30 to 65 boys and it opened a host of interesting logistical problems...available camping facilities being one of them...We are a very active troop (two outdoor offerings per month is routine) and successful in the participation department (we usually take 30 to 45 boys on any non High Adventure trip and summercamps are 80%ers) Taking 40 to 50 boys to the beach to camp or to Gettysburg or even summer camp became a real task. For the first time we found ourselves telling folks(not only parents but scouters too) that they would have to hang back or camp elsewhere...That quite simply there was no room. The 'feed-back' my friend recieved from the Webelos II den leader this week was; that while the boys did want to join our troop...the parents of these boys did not like being told 'by troop leaders' that they would not be able to 'continue to enjoy the scouting experience with their sons' ...in our troop, that is, and that they probably could not go on many campouts with the troop... I was not incharge of the recruiting program this year and I know what my feelings are on this.... but I was wondering what other units do...and how you would respond to this as a recuitment issue? Batter Up!

why on earth would you charge a dollar to borrow a three dollar book??? If it is a matter of them not bringing books back thats part of the librarians job...and "A scout is trustworthy"... If it is a matter of income... find another way!(This message has been edited by anarchist)

You know I keep gett'n a little bit kornfused here...I keep see'n posts about March and April and even May Blue and Golds (and Cross-overs)... Seems the Blue and Gold is supposed to be Cub Scoutings Birthday Party... right? Cub Scouting was 'founded' in (if I remember right 1930) taking BSAs February 'birthdate... ergo the recent 75th ANIVERSARY ...why are units having 'birthday parties' months and months late?? Cross-overs do not have to coincide with BLUE and GOLD but as EagleInKy notes late cross-overs put the young lads at risk of a bit of 'camping shock' to have to face a whole week-long camping experienceat Summer Camp with little or no 'preparation' time...Just curious as to why???

briantshore, just quick post...Are you using the instant recognition kits for your den??? It was the single best recommendation I recieved "my' Wolf year...After I started handing out beads...my den took off!

BW as always is closer to the mark perhaps than I was...Council is the yea or nay sayer rather than the Irving boyos.... However looking at the back of my Council fund raiser approval form it clearly states that 'the uniform may be worn for Council sponsored product sales programs (read popcorn) and scouting shows, suppers and similar events.' It further states that 'if a commercial product is to be sold it will be sold on its own merits and without reference to the needs of scouting.' Last year when we tried to sell wreaths and candy bars we were told 'no uniforms' twice... so just be careful out there boys and girls...

Oak Tree, don't get me wrong...I hartily disagree with the 'he paid he is active' but that is what most Councils and National will say... Our troop uses 50% as a goal with the SM being the final decision maker based on what was going on that may have made a lad miss 50%... (but I will tell you that we have a BoR over ruled on an Eagle board that found a boy who was AOL for 1 1/2 years (and had a list of problems with his eagle project a mile long) they did care about anything - he was a name on the charter and the SM had signed him off....end of discussion give him his eagle...) given my druthers in a perfect world I would define active the same way I would be able to define beauty or a good hunting dog..."I know 'it' when I 'see' it!" And I think most of us, looking in the mirror, would admit... that just being registered is a far cry from being active...(that dog won't hunt!) nuff said!

OOHH! OOHH! MEE! PICK MMEEE! ROPE LOOP - OVER ROPE ENDS IS TO WEARERS RIGHT! hey BW I got one right!! see I can learn too!

ScoutMomAng, 1)- BSA describes active as having paid his money... 2) - "how is this different from letting a bear work..."? 'guess cause you are doing the 'letting'... Cub scouting is grade and age secific...Tigers-1st, Wolves-2nd, Bears-3rd, Webbelos I -4th, and Webelos II- 5th. The Bear Cub Scout Rank book ends with 'when you have completed the 3rd grade or are 10 years old you can join a webelos den..." So unless it has changed in the last few years working over summer for bear rank sign-offs is... er....problematic at best and maybe just wrong at worst....most loose no sleep over it. In a Bears case, he is in the 4rd grade when he passes the 3nd...unless you believe in an educational purgatory... Technically he should begin working on the Webelos 'stuff' the summer between 3rd grade and 4th...After all he has passed the 3rd grade... I guess if you believe in ..."what the meaning of 'is' - is" type arguements, you could wiggle some room if his birthday is delayed... But if you look at the bulk of the Scout programs in this country most Webelos IIs become Boy Scouts in or around the early spring...sort of leads you to believe that BSA feels the boys should be done by the end of the school year at the latest doesn't it? In our Pack we leave the Webelos II chairs 'in place and empty' for the Pack meeting after cross-over (April) and At the Start of the May Pack meeting each den 'proudly' moves to the next 'level'... Webelos I up to the Webelos II chairs and Bears to the Web I seats on around the room. They still work on the current ranks and extra activities but that stops when school is out. Mid June is the end the school year and work done in the summer is geared to the next rank... BSA BOY SCOUT JOINING REQUIREMENTS- age eleven or finished fifth grade or AoL...(for young over-achievers?) He is already eleven...if he can make the 6 months by the end of school...(but it sounds like now, that that is not the issue...he was "on the books'... right?) If he visits the Boy Scout activities during this time and has completed the other AoL requirements he gets his patch...'can't add, can't subtract from the requirements...but if he has not done them, he has not earned the award... I have always thought being fair meant fair to all participants in an activity, and not being 'more fair' to one who has strayed slightly...most will say its your call, but as long as he has all the sign-offs; he has 'earned' the award... Good luck and thank you for all you do!

Don't have a plan for it but it is not hard to build. less than one sheet of marine plyboard, eight nut-bolt-washer units and primmer and gallon of exterior/marine gade paint. Build a trestle table - two leg units (top piece with two legs bolted on -two bolts per leg member) and the trestles are 2 long 'plywood boards' with two angled-slots ( sort of like .../ \...) cut slightly more than halfway through the boards 4-6 inches inside each end. These angled slots (30 degrees?) are cut only slightly wider than the thickness of the plywood itself, and they fit down on the cross member of each leg unit to make the table top support. The distance between the two 'trestles' needs to be 2-3 inches wider than your dish pans because you need the pans to fit between the trestles and have enough 'table top' material between the hole you cut in the table top (for the dish pan) and the actual edge of the table top to make a sturdy enough 'board' so it doesn't bend, split and break when the boys go to pu it together or take it down( I know this sounds confusing but it is actually easy...If you can't find the diagram PM me and I'll draw one up on a word document and email to you) I prefer what Linda J was aiming at but in most parks now-a-days, the Rangers get a case of the nasties if you tie or lash anything to living trees.... You can however make a Chippewa kitchen modification to do a wash station and each time you set it up a scout or two gets credit for a camp gadget... and this is easy... two large tripods each with one or two with stablizer cross bars lashed to the legs table top high. lash together a ladder and lash it to the stabilizer on each tripod. if you build your ladder with 4-6 cross members (small spars)just wide enough for you dish pans to fit in and the width of the ladder just wide enough for the long dimention of the dish pan to fit...you can just drop in the pans and fill them with water. If you make the ladder members long enough and leave some space beside the last pan you can chain lash a table top so you can dry your dishes... It more fun and neater! part of the remaining plywood and you need to play with the layout to avoid wasting board becomes the table top and you cut out spaces for your dish pans to fit into (sabre saw)

interesting Eamonn, Lpasn, I agree with the 'helping scouts make choices'...but.... If I read the post right the boy has not been active or registered for almost the entire scout year...Correct? He wants to come back but is not in the pack now...correct? And the other boys who have followed the rules, and made the right choices are told ...what?.... when the lad is allowed to receive the AoL... The rules only apply to them? Its only a patch...get over it? We are being nice, friendly, kind ? Just to someone else.... We are showing the lad that he can do as he pleases and some kind soul will always be there to bail him out? Not trying to be a hard nose here, but good gosh the boy is not and was not a registered scout for a full scout year (correct?)... Why don't we just start telling the boys work real hard for your first webelos year...then mail it in for a year and you still get the top award in Cubbing? What is wrong with saying "glad your back, here is the Boy Scout Application...Lets go visit some troops and get you working on the B.S. Promise"...etc. Crossver is in two weeks. Note: Most Troops have a New Scout Program that starts for these boys in March-April and is geared to get them ready for the 'Brown Sea Programs' at summercamp...part of the 1st class-1st year effort...Summer camp reservations, payment etc. have deadlines, price penalties for late registration and many camps will not 'add' boys to troop rosters after certain deadlines... Waiting to cross him over just for the AoL seems fraught with problems...he will be two or thee 'camps' or activities behind his pals, Depending on the size of the troop, and number of New Scout Patrols being formed, he might find himself placed in a patrol without any of his friends, he may (probably?) miss summer camp (putting him even further behind in the Boy Scout advancement schedule)... I think it is more than a "to be (nice) or not to be (nice) question.

Cave Eagle, Bet his knots are really right side up! It's his uniform that is upside down! He probably spends most of his time standing on his head in the corner...LOL

two Webelos dens? april, may, june, july, august... seems to be a month shy even if you stretch the program and play pretty loose by the rules. In june (around here anyways), he gets a piece of paper that says (one hopes) "advanced to the sixth grade" at that point he is a sixth grader...so summer work for AoL even if you had a full six months, would be bending the requirements to the point of Clintonian semantics...is that what you want to demonstrate to this lad? The lad can crossover a join the Boy Scouts...but the AoL?? AoL is not the goal...building character and citizenship is... I would rather work with the boy on lessons of; decision making and choices vs. consequences, Adults making judgement mistakes (his dad?...we all do), always asking for more information, setting goals for the future and following the rules...(good citizenship, sportsman?). No Aol..It's not the end of the world, but what lessons do we teach by making exceptions and what will that tell some of his peers? just asking? two webelos dens... oh my gawd!

DANGER!DANGER! Will Robinson, DANGER! just to be a spoiled sport... Gopherjudy posts " I took Mark around in his uniform...and 99% bought..." The uniform is only approved for fund raisers while selling the majestic, the wonderful, the spectacular, the BSA approved ...POP CORN...or have the rules been relaxed?

Cajuncody, Bob White gave you the scoop...check your district schedules and your adjacent districts (training outside you district is OK if it fits schedule needs!)...and get'r'done...the pack can buy the committee challeng game and use it over and over... In out troop we cross-train (that's TRAIN!) a lot! Most of our committee members have had at least half of the SM training, so we are sure that we not only understand our committee responciblities but also the SM/ASM corps duties and challenges they face. Troop also retrains by sending at least one experienced adult leader along with our newbies (as a friendly face)... as always YiS anarchist