anarchist

rpushies, I am glad this is "working out"...I too, as a boy found a safe and nurturing place in scouting. I was blessed with a "nature" that helps me deal with my problems (for better or worse) ...and I have learned to understand that even scouters aren't perfect..."mistakes" are (or seem to be) a central element of the human condition. I hope you know that I didn't accuse you of calling nldscout names ...I was just asking you (in a somewhat lefthanded way) not to think he was a bad guy ... and "little" Rickie... about your Anger ...I was I not offended, by the time I jumped in you had gone on record with an understandable reason for your "outburst". Anger from a "victim" should always be understandable...and once recognized acknowledged and soothed (as much as possible) I do not look for any great "growth" or break-through from this thread. I only hope that we all contine to see that some times unknowingly we step on toes - but it does not mean we are bad people, sometimes we need to apologize - even for unintended harm,... and we always need to forgive. YiS anarchist

NIscouter, Bravo, (I said your instincts sounded right) About slowing down an eagle...just have a talk with you son, let him know your concerns ...that he may be missing out on some of the fun in scouting, some of the personal growth by just knocking off "sign offs" and merit badges...but I wouldn't be concerned with 'slowing' him down. You might want to suggest that now he has reached well into the "higher ranks of scouting" it might be a good time to strengthen and polish his scouting skills but perfecting them, buy teaching them. Perhaps he could help the new PL be a better leader. Maybe he could lend a hand to others in his patrol reach a higher rank...you could even suggest that he offer to help "Ralph" engage in the program. indoing that he could teach skills, help scouts advance, maybe make a friend or at lease figure out whats eating Ralph...and in the process he will learn alot about service to others (and learn alot about himself). the "mission" or as some called it Bullying- I think you saw two boys with perhaps typical "issues" between them and as you noted above, not to the level of requiring serious intervention (again, those instincts!) Dealing with rejection and diappointment...we all need to learn how to "get over it". Any one who says rejection does not hurt is a liar or a sociopath...but these are teaching moments for our boys. We need to help them deal with the matter... not learn to blame others or run away (again your insticts are right) Use stories, parables, the experiences you and those you know have had to teach about dealing with let downs. Help him come up with ways to change the situation and not blame others. At this age (12 1/2) there are (or should be)lots of "Beer moments". That is where you two crack open a couple of root beers and find a wall to sit on and kick your heels for a while, or a porch swing or a drive down a country lane...and just talk about what is going on in his life. Living in the country, when my guys were small we did not subscribe to the Sunday paper...I drove to the little county store every Sunday Morning to get a paper...before breakfast, before church (but not before feeding the horses)...with one of my sons (whos turn is it?) and we would talk...it was only seven miles but some times it took more than an hour to get the paper... heck sometimes we even missed church...( I think God understood...wife on the other hand...). The point is we made some time to talk about our troubles and how we were handling them...it was a good "mini" tradition and I miss it. I hope you have some time set aside like planting the acorn, it is worth it. YiS anarchist

I almost did not post here because it is sure to go bad (as it were) An now from the otherside of the planet... FScouter has posted well, and insightfully... But that being said, humor is often wrapped around tragedy...someone once said humor was mankinds way of keeping from going crazy... rpushies great pain is clear, but the respect FScouter asks for has to also extend to the general membership (society)...is joking now forbidden or just limited to "knock knock who's there?". People make innocent comments for grins and all of us have to understand that for each joke there is probably someone's dire experience being give the short end of the "respect" that was due... That anyone (except an abuse survivor) could not see the humor that was offered is hard to imagine. As Venividi points out however,consideration needed to be acknowledged...let me appologize for the pain you felt...I am sure harm was not meant. Every day we say things that have little real meaning ..."I'm gonna kill my son when he gets home" or "I would like to use that boy as an anchor" (overheard on my last canoe trip)and someone might take offense but ...It should be enough to know (I think) no one was trying to tread on toes (here). and yes rpushie, Nldscout did probably mean it (chill pill) but him not knowing your history, I would not hold it against Nldscout. That such a comment would bring out such a strong reaction shows your pain has never been overcome. I would hope you are still working with talented people to learn to deal with your horrible experience. You live in a society that habitually treads on toes and you need to continue to develop the tools to help you deal with that. Humor touches on all facets of the human existence and it is not going away. starvation, murder, floods and famine, and even child abuse, injury, it all finds away into humor ... into "jokes"...sometimes the laughter is a salve on wounds that can't be healed, sometimes it just helps us from going crazy...there is usually nothing meant by a joke... anarchist

NO, NO, NO! IT's OFF WITH THEIR HEADS! OFF WITH THEIR HEADS! BW nails it again...drat and confound it! You might also want the PLC to take back to their patrols during "patrol time" a few words of wisdom 'bout respecting the positions of rank and what was noted by the SM about the un acceptable behavior...if the PLs understand and reinforce the "quiet-respect" principle, peer pressure will also grow... if not ... OFF with their heads!(This message has been edited by anarchist)

FScouter excellent post, good, sound well grounded.

"Same thing with the Ralph scenario. I am not condemning a particular boy or SM. I'm stating that bullying in a troop should not be tolerated. It's up to the original poster of that scenario to determine if bullying has taken place or not and decide his course of action."(FScouter quote) FScouter...but you did condemn...YOU took the posters words (actually perjorative characterizations) "mission" and "miserable" and YOU labeled "Ralph" a bully. "When people post questions and scenarios in these forums, rarely do we get all the facts, all the background, and all the details. Our conclusions and advice cannot be based on details and circumstances we don't know about." (FScouter quote) Good grief! If we all "know" and aknowledge knowing that we don't get all the facts... isn't it incumbent on us to temper our advise? Here, I think of the economist's answer "one the one hand...but then on the other hand..." And Finally, Venividi...in the long lost old days a man or woman who freely gave hours, days, weeks, even years(!) of his or her time to help kids grow character and honor, a person who usually spent untold and un-repaid personal funds to help out the boys, the troop, gas and driving to heck and back for campouts...as partial repayment, "we" used to give those persons some measure of respect and some benefit of the doubt...but seemingly no more. Mr.Smith says jonnie didn't get his sign off- its the SM's fault... and BAM! it's off with the SMs head! Venividi...I take it that's what you are sensing? If so I am afraid...at least in these forums...You are right. Just another bomb thrown by anarchist

FScouter...take all the umbrage you like...(its particularrly good with vinegar)...but you were the one who jumped to a conclusion...I simply demonstrated the objections to your sweeping indictment...But I also offeredwhat I felt were constuctive first step suggestions to mediate NIscouters son's problem. You, with 1 only one side of a story, allegation with only one real incident noted, a parents take on a situation (objective?) concerning a young scout who (perhaps) needs some help maturing ( distressed over lossing an election) and painted a boy and later the SM with a very wide tar brush... So take unbrage all you want...You were wrong to dive into water you hadn't probed first...Like too many others you instantly became...Judge, jury and executioner or perhaps it was just a lynching you wanted ....and if you can't see that I am sorry ...for you. nuff said anarchist decafe if you please

Capt'n, Please be careful. Keep your goals in mind as you review these posts My opinion of many...What a bunch of clap trap..."toss it out", "put it where the sun don't shine", Why fight this fight? What, in any of the committee divel is so alarming? (BW, I am heartened by your restraint...seriously) Folks lets drag the old dog out on the table...along with your BSA policy and training manuals... Who is the "power" in the troop...Hint - its not the SM! They (the committee) have made a fairly positive gesture...and asked the Capt'ns opinion and thoughts...(it was not an edict, it could however become troop/CO policy), I think I would brew up a pot of joe and have chat with the committee and scope things out...Why the need, discuss how some of the drivel is counter to the way BSA wants the program done...Whittle away what is not needed...let them have what is not important...Perhaps you even "wow" the majority of the committee with your knowledge of the BSA program and your wholesome desire to see that "for the good of the boys" all adults should be trained for their positions... Wouldn't it be better to sit down and negotiate? Try to use honey rather than maggots? If the goals are: 1)get the committee trained and 2) ease them into the Boy led program... I would be willing to bet that blowing off the committee (and a new SM doing it)is NOT the best way to accomplish these goals... Perhaps, look at the training classes offered by not only your council but all neighboring councils and offer to drive a bunch of folks including the CC for a unit wide (your troop scouters) leaders training day/weekend...which ever council offered the "rightdates" to rope in the CC... Start your presentation with the old "what I have learned in ScoutMaster Fundamentals and outdoor leader training has really opened my eyes to the complete BSA program...and there are several leader courses we all should take in fact a series of committee challenge classes are being offered next _____. I think it is really important for all of us to be trained in the BSA methods"..... I would try to drop this on them in a committee meeting with the COR present...put the CC on the spot in a quiet, gentle, sly kind of way, with the COR looking on...It might be real difficult for the CC to turn it down...And I would go take the "challenge" with the CC (your excuse for this besides making sure the CC doesn't cut and run... is "SM should understand and appreciate the CCs job as well as the "view point" from the CCs side of the table." let us know what you end up doing...and if it works... anarchist

Welcome aboard Capt'n! Question? You said you were a new SM...is this a new troop? Many troops have "troop guidelines" and "policy statements" or "Parent handbooks" and some of them actually do a nice job of informing the troop, the parents and the CO of the general goals, methods and expectations of the program. I am guessing that something motivates this work in progress... any idea as to the background or are they just trying to "get it right"? my thoughts (coming from the committee side of the fence): "A minimum of one overnight adventure shall be scheduled for each month except November, February and April." ***{this is not a bad goal...but what is special about these three months? Our troop schedulesat least on adventure a month - year round and many months two activities} One parent from each family must participate in an overnight adventure as a chaperone or driver annually. This does not include Summer Camp. ***{not a bad policy if you can get the parents on board with it... fexibility for some? ...like our troop has a hearing impaired couple... } Each trip shall have a stated purpose and be approved by the Troop Committee. ***{sort of "tense" but most committees approve the troop program annually anyway} At no time will there be two outings scheduled on the same weekend without the approval of the Troop Committee. ***{this is a bit short-sighted... I can think of several times we have one activity aimed at younger scouts and a second activity aimed at older boys...High adventure like caving for scouts 14 years and older} Should the Troop Committee approve two trips on the same weekend, Scouts may attend only one outing. ***{question as to why...next weekend we have a flat water canoe training campout (very popular) nearly the whole troop will attend...Friday night and Saturday...breaking Camp early Sunday Morning...Sunday afternoon several of our boys are taking a trip to the C&O canal and doing a 20 mile bike trip for part of the biking merit badge)why should they be able to do both??? Isn't that a parental decision? All Trips require the attendance of one Trained BSA Leader identified as the Tour Leader for the duration of the adventure. ***{necessary for a tour permit in many/most councils) The ratio of 2 adults for every 10 Scouts shall be maintained for all trips. At no time shall a scout be denied attendance because of an excess number of adults. *** I can understand 2 for ten on water, but say for a hike???two adults for thirty boys is not a stretch...we however usually book three adults for all events (even one with five scouts)...so that if one adult gets called away for a family/work emergency, gets sick or just bails out at the last minute, the activity is not forced to "cancel" Should it be necessary to limit attendance on any trip, the specific limitation will be communicated in writing and adhered to unless the Troop Committee approves a change. ***{seems a wordy way of saying the rules are the rules, I guess if the campsite only holds 25 campers and you 'advertize it to the troop' thats the way it is????} One month prior to any scheduled event, the Tour Leader must be identified by the Scoutmaster and drivers recruited . *** heck, we do this in our adult planning meeting each summer, when we approve the PLCs annual activity calendar...At a minimum we know in August who is "on the hook" for September through December and by December we have planned and identified "activity" leaders through the summer. Why so late? Many events take months to set up and the tour leader should be working with the PLC as early as possible...we already know who the "tour leader" for summercamp 2007 will be and who is running our two canoe trips next June. Drivers are another thing...they are pinned down in the month or so before an event} Permission Slips At a minimum, permission slips shall be distributed three weeks prior to the scheduled event either at the regular Tuesday Meeting or electronically. ***our permission slips are on line (on our web page) and the SPL starts collecting them after our sign up sheets are posted...usually in the last two weeks before an event...the tour leader always has a few for the "stragglers"...unless there is a deadline or it is number critical event} All permission slips must be returned no later than the next Tuesday. All permission slips will include a notation indicating the date turned in to the Troop. Scouts who do not submit their permission slips by the required date will not be allowed to participate if the trip is full. If the trip is not full the Scout must have the permission of the Tour Leader and Adventure Coordinator to attend. ***little tense again Planning The weekly meeting prior to an adventure shall be dedicated to Trip planning. Scouts who are not attending the adventure will assist with planning where appropriate (i.e. checking equipment, rank advancement, assisting with menu planning) or complete another task assigned by the Scoutmaster. ***again kind of wordy...this is PLC/SMs area...and a week before a trip should be patrol planning but troop planning should be done much further out and on this stuff the SM should have a better handle than the committee and the PLC should be doing most of the troop planning... The Scouts, with the supervision of an adult leader, shall be responsible for developing the menu, and preparing a shopping list. The Scoutmaster shall be responsible for determining which Scouts shall complete this task based on outstanding advancement requirements. Each Scout is also responsible to complete the shopping for one adventure which is required for rank advancement to First Class. The Scoutmaster, or hi designee, shall keep records and determine who will be responsible for purchasing food for each trip. ***{if this is a boy led troop the SPL, PL and PLC should be assigning this with the SM looking over their shoulders helping them get it right. Troop should have an advancement coordinator keeping advancement details in a troop record not the SM. Patrols should determine who the grubmaster is and do their own shopping...SM should stay out of that picture as much as possible...SPL can or should be able to guide his boys with the advice of the SM} At the conclusion of the trip, and on the weely meeting following, the Quartermaster shall be responsible for checking in all returned equipment and determining that it is in good condition. Scouts who do not return troop equipment in satisfactory condition will be held financially responsible for the equipment in question. ***{ Not bad proceedure...Unless the gear is wet what is wrong with checking most of it back into the trailer or back in the scout storage area at the end of the event? Who is responsible if the patrol stove is messed up, a single boy or the patrol???? WE believe in responsiblity and that boys should take care of gear...but this needs to be monitored to be sure gear is in good shape when it is checked out} Keeping in mind that your committee wants you to look it over and give them your feedback seems like a good start...a two-way dialogue. At least they did not hit you over the head with carved in stone rules before you even got to see them...Sounds like they need to take some training...and we have found that at least a few of the committee members should go through SM fundimentals to know what the SMs job is supposed to be as well as what BSA requires of the program guys/girls. Which ones give you heartburn? hope it helps YiS Anarchist

FScouter, no it is not necessary to preface every post... it is also not unreasonable to expect posters to keep an open mind, to be skeptical of absolutes and to be wary of unwarranted condemnation... But you seem bent on hosting the next set of trials in Salem. In another thread you jumped (figuatively) all over a scout (remeber "Ralphie") and an SM for bullying based on a couple of sentences and a notation from the poster that there was more to it, but the writer was trying to be brief...What "facts" were given? Perhaps you meant allegations (?) or assumptions(?)contentions(?) accusations(?) but certainly no facts. Thoughtful dialogue requires information and answers should usually be tempered by the knowledge that you and I and the rest of the forum will never have all of the "Facts" nor necessarily even some of the facts...we can only be sure of getting the posters view of the situation from one side... Instead of posing questions, offering ways to mediate and moderate both the "bullys" (your label) behavior and perhaps even the "disappointed 13 yr olds behavior...your short form answer was a sort of "OFF WITH THEIR HEADS"... I think you need to watch some of the old JLT training tapes... to see how we ask the boys to handle conflict...would you like me to send you my copies? Probably wouldn't hurt to switch to decafe either...it's doing me a world of good...:>) Anarchist

FScouter... Such leaps! your definition of bullying is so expansive as to take ones breath away...NIScouter attributes a "mission" but from what evidence...Did "Ralph" stand up in front of the troop and declare such a mission? ...(probably not)... Did a sorely disappointed 13 year old declare such a movtive (we don't have the info)... Would you like a swing at the answer?...You appear to be in the mood for leaps of faith (No offense)or did a distressed, good guy father assume and characterize the motives without first hand knowledge? (perhaps?) Elections are interesting human (societal)constructs. Movitives and reasons are not always apparent. I am thinking of the youngest boy in my oldest sons patrol...a patrol with a good number of excellently skilled, athletic, intelligent young men who had no doubt they were pretty cool (if not the coolest)guys, who were also somewhat...ahh, boisterous and most of them had been together from tigers on up. One year they elected the youngest and newest in their patrol(a nice boy)a year younger than the rest of the patrol, considerably less mature, and "markedly less cool" than the older boys. I was intrigued as to how or why the older boys had voted for this young man...(when the votes were counted he had ALL the votes...even his opponants...answer? It was a form of punishment...they, the older guys, knew they were a handful to "control" and thought it would be funny to hang an "albatross" around this boys neck for a year...not very pretty but an interesting take on boys and elections. Bullying? I think not, Painting the SM with such a broad brush...unkind, unhelpful, unfriendly..should I go on? Next thing you know someone is going to use the dreaded HAZING word! Having a dislike for someone, is not bullying! Giving someone a figurative thumping in an election is not bullying! Regardless of the motive...Is the winning side in every troop election a bunch of bullys? Please try to be honest here... (think thats another strong scouting concept isn't it?)...you have no information except your own prejudgement that you can not truely hang a charge of bullying upon, do you? As has been noted in another current thread, we seem to like to take gratuitous pot shots at troops and SMs with just a few lines of information...It would appear that for many of us everything is way too "black or white". 'Course I would like to be so sure of everything...just can't look at my feet of clay and muster up the chutzpa to think that way. and OGE, I love you so much... even in a scouty platonic sort of way we'd still need three deep leadership! YiS. anarchist

OGE I spent 15 years making my mom miserable, but was it was bullying...Not getting along is not evidence of bullying...or I have three younger sisters who bullied (bullyed sp?) me for a much of my lifetime! My son had a patrol mate he "hated" as much as any 11/12/13/14/15/16/17 year old could "hate". They did not get along and early one they badgered each other without mercy... SM and dads told them to get over it and find an accommodation...(work it out) or he would have them tent together...darn if it didn't work...they still didn't like each other but they knew they had to "work together" cause the three dads were on the same page...we understood that conflicts arise and running from them is usually not an answer. One boy is an eagle the other is close...but the situation was not bullying. Unless there are charactoristics of intimidation just being a pain in the AHH neck does not a bully make. "Ralph" deserves a fair trial...not a "lynching" in the forum "press". nuff said (still love ya OGE) anarchist(This message has been edited by anarchist)

Venividi, Dead on! (for the most part) I am constantly amazed that we in this forum are ever ready to read a few lines and label the SM/guy/gal a twit or worse (and usually with no ifs or buts about it!). Perhaps its 'cause we want to help and feel most posters are in some "pain" and being sympathetic seems the right thing to do. Maybe they really are twits... Hummm, 'course could be that we are the twits(?) More likely its a little of "all of the above", with a bunch of "lack of understanding" thrown in for good measure. People all come together in scouting with different objectives, goals, experiences, and to use a popular term..."baggage". Many want their sons to be super stars in everything they do (sometimes even with minimum effort) Some think if you don't sweat blood you haven't worked hard enough and conflict is bound to spring forth from such a divide. Since it sounds like you have been program side (SM? ASM?) Maybe you ought to give being a committee member a try...I have found my "warm and fuzzy hole" as the equipment guy for the troop committee (chief equipment scrounger, fund raiser for gear, primary hauler of the trailer - {does that make me trailer trash?-probably} and QM mentor? I don't have to deal with parents or politics, I get to go on any camp I wish, drink lots of coffee and folks don't mess with me cause they might have to haul the gear or raise their dues ...a joke folks!). Best of all, I get to sit on as many CoRs as I'd like (SM and ASM can't) and I get to ask questions and probe minds that are almost as warped as my own...not to mention practicing mild forms of what I sure some folks would clain to be mental child abuse...(another joke:>) BTW in our troop, Committee Members frequently help the SM with camping and program training (most of us are trained for both types of jobs (SM fundamentals, outdoor leader and committee training, SSD, Safety Afloat, CPR) We have a training coordinator who is great, keeps the adults records of who has what training (when-expirations)and badgers everyone to go get trained or get more training!) After a bit, you might wish to get more "involved" or you might stay as A committee member...slow and steady is not a bad way to start back into things. for the record...I have had many of the same thoughts myself... I have an 18 yr old who "Eagled out" this past July and a 16 year old who finished "his" year as a guide, likes the outdoor activities but could care less about rank...may even drop scouting...for me the Committee is a nice place to be.... YiS Anarchist

Juggler...best wishes and good luck...I hope it works out for you...If it does, Please work with your ASM towards "playing well with others"...we all can use a refresher course from time to time. Torveaux- "for the best of the boys or the Troop" is an important factor but in the end it is really a guilt trip ploy. People who take on the SM job are, in the vast majority of cases, good folks who want what is best for scouts...for the troop from the start. They would not and do not quit for minor reasons...heck, in many threads we read of SMs not wanting to quit even when they are not wanted by nearly their whole troop! But if the SM truely believes the CO and the CC/Committee: do not trust his judgement, methods, technique, program goals, do not want to support the people he thinks are best for the program , etc...how can that person be "asked" to stay for the "good of the Boys" ...would you want an unhappy SM working with your son? Would you want your son led buy a bunch of clueless leaders whose primary qualification is they play well with others, or good Scouters who take it seriously but step on some parents toes from time to time? As was said (sort of)by another in this thread; some of my most fond memories are not of the teachers who were nice to me but those who made me work, who held me to a higher standard. I can say the same about the "Major" (my first SM)... anarchist

OGE and FSCOUTER- (disappointment abounds!) Bullying? Bullying? I saw not a single reference to BULLYING. Do you have more info than the original post? NIscouter wrote: "Ralph" has made it his "mission" to make my son miserable in many ways"... reading the post again... I can (personally) see no "bully" comment...unless persuading the majority to vote a particular way is bullying...(Is George "W" Bush a bully???) Democracy in action can be a dirty thing to watch, but lets not jump to conclusions...there could be(probably is) more here than meets the eye...but what leads you to bullying? No offense but, If being "turned down" by a patrol has made the boy so dejected that he is looking to leave the Troop, I think I would be working to help the youngster to grow up a bit...(in a nice gentle way, of course). Life is going to heap a bunch of disappointments on the boy and how he learns to deal those set-backs is part of character development...(think that's still in the BSA program, right?)... Being miserable and/or quiting over an election is not a good start...does not show any rudamentary leadership skills nor maturity but it is a good place for the SM to start...not NIscouter. NIscouter...your instincts were good on this...share this matter with the SM and the ASM in charge of the Patrol. Give them your thoughts and back away...Give them a chance to work on it (hopefully with their SPL). AS a Scouter what could you do? What would you do that would be different than a concerned parent? Gonna throw "Ralph" out of the troop? Going to intimidate him? I am curious..just because he (RALPH)is not motivated to "Eagle out" a 14 or doesn't get along with another boy in his patrol he is less deserving of the program? I assume he pays his dues, seems he comes to meeting...He might need scouting more than 50% of the boys in the troop... who knows. Another question: Doesn't he have a right to "work" the election process? (just being an advocate here...no offense intended)...now that said.... As a dad, try to help your son work through this...Unless violence is "pending", time is not real critical here...given time, (heck most of the time) the boys will/may work it out themselves. Making and adversary an ally is always a good thing and can be lots of "fun" at the start...in a "gaming" sort of way. Learning to coexist is also an important life skill...He is not going to be able to pick his classmates, teammates, those he works with or the people above him on the "food chain" in the real world... so now is a good time to start working on those skills. Having the SPL mediate between the two is a good thing... little NIscouter-who-is-Star can/should ask the SPL to help with any issues between the two scouts. Keep in mind guys (girls), there are always more than one "take" on any story (the participants usually can only see one side, however). And always counseling to "get out! Run to another troop" is not always the answer...sometimes it is just plain old hard work. How many times have we read that "the First troop was bad, thought this one would be better, little jonnie is still unhappy, we now see the scouters in the new troop are worse than the last twits, the next troop is a longer drive...like the next planet (exaggeration mine)" Goodness, while leaving is sometimes the ony way I feel it should be a last resort...I wonder how many times just rolling up the sleeves, finding a middle ground...compromising some and working hard could just be the real answer?...but hey, I just a progressive at heart... my $3.12 a gallon worth Anarchist

GREYING BEAVER!!! GREAT CEASARS GHOST! YOU HAVE TO WARN THOSE POOR GIRLS TO WATCH OUT! STEADY DATING AT 16 CAN LEAD TO SOME BAD PROBLEMS. I dated a girl steadily when I was in the ninth grade, and tenth grade, and eleventh grade and twelveth grade, and through four years of college... I stopped that steady stuff though... Married her, and she hasn't be "right" for the last 341/2 years... not saying to relax totally...but its not really your job! Sounds like you have covered the bases...You are "program"...let parents be parents...life's too short... wish I had another 34 years to go, would probably, finally teach that woman not to date steadily at such a tender age! anarchist

HI folks, First, this thread started in another thread with a request for Ideas for energizing a high adventure program for "older" scouts (here it was actually "middle aged scouts"...13-14 yrs old). some of the posts that brought the blood to a boil were: "Canoeing on moving water without prior training or planning is one of our Troop's most popular events," and "Seriously, an outfitter canoe trip is better than postponing a canoe trip until an inexperienced PLC somehow figures out how to plan one." We were not talking about the whole troop or young scouts; neither were we saying if it can't be done "in house" don't do it... What posters on the "G2SS or training-planning side" were saying is that for a high adventure program, training and planning is a must! It is part of the H.A. program. Of course you can use, and should use outfitters for many activities...even high adventure gigs...but you should not "do" a H.A. activity without training these boys both in skills and planning... High Adventure trip example: (from one sited) White water rafting class IV, V, VI rapids...Outfitter is almost a requirement! planning activities: (by the scouts) Choosing a river and outfitter; Reading the literature; Checking references (yes, it should be done); Getting prices/ quotes/ contracts, Reservations,(made with adults assistance); determining and arranging transport needs, food, finances, equiptment (even if its just a first aid kit toted along), permission slips, tour permit, parent contact tree and scheduling appropriate skills training "classes" for the activity are just some of the things scouts should work on in Planning any High adventure trip (or do the adults just do it all?) Skills (again using the above example in which an outfitters services are being used) general water safety, SAFTY AFLOAT, buddie system, first aid- (water appropriate emphasis) dislocated joints, drowning, hypothermia, broken bones, sunburn etc. water rescues, knots, use of 'pully' type systems, fire building etc. The point being, we were/are trying to help One Hour see that High Adventure Programs by nature require that that boys who are "ready" for H.A. treks are ready to learn to work, train, and Plan...not be spoon fed. We can not and do not expect scouts or scouters to be able to have the skills and equipment to handle all activities...but training (for life) is a major part of what we do... Or,if it is "difficult for the boys to learn" or do...we should just hire someone to 'run it' for them? or... do you think we should just be running glorified play-dates for our children ...but thats grist for another forum topic, I guess.

organizational clap trap! don't cha love it? there is probably on easy way out, here. 1. "hire-fire" is not the SM job- your job is to lead, motivate and teach the BSA program to Scouts. If they are going to "fire" the ASM it is their job. 2. COR and CC hold the high cards here. 3. You can either choose to either stay or go and that's the rub... Your ASM is valuable to the program...so says you... Are you willing to walk away... if she is asked to leave? Is the ASM's work strong or important enough(program-wise)to "choose" this fight? Then there is the ego and/or honor "card" that has to be looked at... I tend to come down on OGE's side of the calculation here...but unlike OGE, I tend to be one of those abraisive folks myself. If she is important to the program you are working within, you have to decide how important she is to the troop...will it be worth taking a stand...walking away from your program to "defend" the ASM? Is the fight worth the damage to the troop of losing an SM (also)?...a very tough call. but in the end if I felt that her work was good for the boys and that the committee was being ...ahh,... stupid...I would have to tell the COR and CC that I could no longer work for them and that I was returning to "just be a scout parent" again ( and then of course assess the pros and cons of finding a new troop for my sons....)

One Hour, (sorry another long, wordy post...the rest of you can skip it if you like) Ok what have you "learned" so far... (besides that we can really fly off on tangents)? If I read it right, you have a small group of real "older" scouts...maybe hanging on (or hanging around occaisionally) and a group of soon to be aging /higher ranked scouts 13-14 yrs old(Star/Life?)... and you wish to prepare in order to keep most of the up and coming scouts active and engaged. To do this you need to follow (eventually) two tracks. The first track is to incorporate tougher/more interesting(?) activities into your current campout schedule...without knowing what possiblities are on your schedule (do any of the camping opportunities have cope courses available, water for canoeing? etc.) it would be hard to offer direct suggestions. Keeping in mind that what is cool and interesting to 11 year old is a "been there done that" for a fourteen year old... You might have the older boys build large pioneering projects at a camp so the younger boys can "ooh and ahh"...towers and bridges come to mind. Then there are Night hikes - fun and can be done in most places. Camping near any "wild" caves (not public caverns but crawl on your belly type holes? If you have access to a "grotto" ( a cave club) or a local spelunker, a camp nearby could be a base where the younger boys work on skills while the 14 years olds get down and dirty! A low 'drag' event is a family setting camping trip (close to home, where families can visit and even camp if they like). Here, the older scouts spend the day demonstrating cooking techniques (including meal planning and kitchen hygiene) to the younger scouts and the parents...our older guys loved it! (The troop funded the food bill) And the Parents were fed some awesome meals. It finished up with a huge camp bonfire where the older scouts did almost a hour and a half of skits, songs and ghost stories...the parents of younger scouts were blown away and the older scouts were very excited about the job they did. Then you can build the "second track"- a separate "out-side the regular progam" - program. First, as was demonstrated by your last years High Adventure trip to Double H ...even if it is "given to them on a silver platter" it does not necessarily work... The boys really need to "own" the trips ...to be interested in the schedule...To do this they have to want to do something and do the work necessary to get there. This takes a butt-load of work by the adults...'cause the adults have to sell the program and motivate the boys. I might suggest here that you check with council and see if they have a BSA high adventure program spokesman. Several years ago we made contact with the gent in our council who visited troops around the council "selling" the High Adventure Camps like Seabase, Philmont, and the Northern Tier treks. He came to a troop meeting with an energetic discussion, a short slide show, handouts, and photos of our council's scouts having a blast at the different H.A.camps. That seemed to perk up a few scouts when they saw that the adults were willing to help plan and make a commitment -several years out, towards a super trip. We sent a small contingent to Philmont, then a small crew to Sea Base then a larger crew, then two crews...on and on! Believe me, boys coming back with pictures and "war" stories help to energize other scouts to "jump in". This brings to mind something we do after every event...campout, camporee, service project or activities. At our first meeting after any activity the SPL (sometime during his program...usually just after opening) asks some of the participants to tell the troop (the boys who did not participate)what went on. He usually selects a younger scout (participant)first and after that scout is finished, the SPL asks an older, more verbose scout to tell the guys what they missed (more selling the program). With digital cameras we can now even do a quick slide show on the TV in the meeting hall during the discussion. It seems to help keep participation up. I woulds suggest that your new HIgh Adventure ASM (you have one now, right?) draw in the new older scouts (13-14 yr olds) for a special meeting. It might be during a regular meeting but I would suggest it be done out-side the normal schedule. At this meeting the SPL, SM and the new H.A.-ASM should explain what they want to do, and a thumbnail of what the goals are for a more challenging program. You might want to open it up for a brain storming session. What might interest them... what they would like to try. At first do not discourage any suggestions...(the kid who throws out a trip to Hawaii for surfing should be allowed his "fun" and just add it to the list the SPL is "making" (he will have a pad of paper, right?)With 10-13 boys there will be some ideas... and don't be afraid to toss out a few...in fact be prepared to "salt the mine" by planting suggestions with the ASM the SPL and even encourage a few of the scouts before the meeting to toss in some of their favorite "cool" outdoor activities. Make a list of interesting activities and then let the boys start molding it to suit them...("Hawaii, great idea..let's see... air line tickets $1,200 each hotel, cars..that should be about fifteen fund raisers... it can be done...if you do the work...or maybe we could look at Joe's idea of learning to scuba dive? couldn't we?" quotes the ASM) Maybe add only two H.A. activities to your schedule this year and maybe more next year...You might even find that your group of 12-13 soon to be older scouts self-divide into a group that wants to go caving and a group that wants to rock climb (much the same activity just in a different "place"). Next the first group wants to learn to operate a sailboat (skiff or day sailer) while the second group wants to learn white water canoe skills... This is fine...let the boys signing on board for the different activity "own" the planning. That does not mean they are left to themselves to screw it up...it means they sit down with adults and are taken through the motions of successful planning and implementation. We can not expect boys to know what to do simply buy telling them to do it...let them see you doing it...walk them through it...ask them questions and patiently answer their questions... Keeping in mind, if you just do it for them they will never learn...and if you don't show them how to plan they will never learn either. As a start and a game...have the ASM pick an activity...you can even pick one you will never do (a hike on the moon, for instance), sit down with several (all?) scouts and start the plan; What is needed? How do we get there? How much Food? What equipment? Who needs to be called? What special training do we need? (Is Mr. Smith certified in BSA Safe Space Flight Defense?) How much will it cost? How do we raise the money? I know it sounds wierd, but it does start them thinking...and at the beginning you (adults) will probably need to "pull" the information out of them with a host of questions...like a lawyer leading a witness ...it is tough work but it will get the juices flowing and you will find interest increasing. Heck, you might even start with one patrol of "older scouts" (remember, it's the patrol method not the troop method) and do a patrol-only High Adventure. The smaller group makes things easier. Take six or eight boys on a cool adventure and report back how much fun was had... Finally the real "older" scouts...if any are left...you know the guys who hang together in the corner...not participating...invite them to join in...when they see that something new is happening they just might want to tag along...it is worth the effort. anarchist

Why web site? are the boys lacking imagination? I don't think so...soap is cheap! let them decide what they want to carve...and if you really expect Michaelanglo... they better have really sharp knives... start by finding a really good deal on Ivory soap (it carves nice). If you let the boys bring in what ever (mom usually sends what she has in the pantry or goes and buys really wierd soap that carves like rock. Get several bars for each boy so you can do it for part of two or three meetings. If they really need help suggest easy stuff...pictures can oft times lead to unrealistice expectations... Then make sure they have real knives that are sharp...too often they show up with dollar store folding knives that could hardly cut warm butter...I collected the knives from the bulk of my boys ( some kids already had good sharp knives)and a couple of dads sat down with me and we put real edges on the knives...carving is so much easier and safer with a good tool. Let them carve simple shapes a boat, canoe, an out line of a dog, or a horses head, a small house, dare I say a gun or a knife (which is exactly what five of my 9 bears did carve)...one even told us of a TV show he saw where the good guy carved a gun out of soap (blacked with ashes) to get out of a jamb...to go along with his carving...One boy tried to do a face and was very disappointed with the outcome...one of my more creative imps carved his soap into... "a stick"...so he would have something to whittle on when he got his card! The best was a fish... the kid did a pretty good job...but he had been using a pocket knife for a while (farm raised kid)before cubs...don't make it work and don't make the carving itself the point of the exercise...SAFE KNIFE handling and carving technique are the goal here not the finished project. I like to sit with the boys in small groups (each with a couple of adults...to watch and offer technique suggestions... Too often, this is treated as a one evening activity and they 1). never learn to use a knife properly and 2) never get to understand the pleasure of whittling...back in the dark ages we whittled several simple wood projects after the saftey class and soap carving lesson...(moms/dads had more time to sit down with us while we piled shavings on the front steps, I guess) before we got our card... (and my favorite was a wooden eagle-handle knife/letter opener that my mother used for a long time...'course the eagle head probably looked more like a buzzard with a broken nose...)Have fun with it and try to make it a skill they use... not just a pass to carry a pocket knife! anarchist

Understanding the spirit of scouting and "Canoeing without training or planning".... Kudu, was offering One Hour a "short cut" to a fun activity... (in my mind, a diservice to the boys needing to "own" their program, and a legal and ethical quandary for their leadership). Show them the way, help them plan, sell "the plan"! In many areas outfitters offer fairly safe, group-rate canoe trips on mild rivers (the south Fork of the Shenanndoah come to mind in my neck of the woods). For the most part these are rivers your grandmother could float (sorry, Grams) with little "normal" risk. Like outfitter-run white water rafting everyone signs a release and gets a video "training session" and a short speach, is issued a paddle and PFD, then hits the water. The outfitter transports boats, maybe even provides lunch, or a campsite and picks up boats and gear afterwards...clean, painless; sorta spoon-fed "adventure". I understand much of what KUDU was offering to One Hour...I just don't agree with it...and some of it was just "said", (I think), to needle the rest of the posters... The young men who don't know how to plan...need to be taught and led, not spoon-fed activities...And as it has been said before "it is not so much what you are selling as how you sell it"! Boy led is not always "ADULTS- HANDS OFF!" Sometimes, adults need to sell the program and sell the "planning lessons". In many cases it is not so much as directing a PLC as taking the SPL aside and selling him the program then backing him up as he leads his troop to a higher level...with our guidance! Philosophically speaking, many who fancy themselves "real men" (calm down KUDU this is not a slam)wish the world (BSA) wasn't rushing so headlong into "dumbing" down the outdoor program. They (we?) lament the good old days when "boys could be boys" and adults could play along...When capturing a snake for study (and release) was not prohibited under the ruse of leaving "nature in nature" -rather than careless young men get bit mishandling snakes. They long for the days before "couch potatoes"; when youngmen, "made their own fun"...yes sometimes STUPIDLY, as in jumping into lakes and rivers before SSD or Safety Afloat came along, or maybe even jumping over fires (thought KUDU NEVER said anything near that), paintballing "B-B gun Cowboy and Indians anyone?. Eamonn has taken that discussion to heart and seems to view any digression or even musing as a nefarious effort not only to distroy Scouting but as a dark endeavor to wantonly injure the young men in our care. I doubt if it is nearly as bad as that on any front. The present day prohibitions are nearly all the work of liability lawyers...but in todays world they are not necessarily bad. There are few things harder to deal with than having a lad in your charge injured (or worse)on an adventure. The pain and recriminations, dealing with parents who want to know how you could let "this" happen to their son and then the law suits... And as I have explained to both my boys...We may not agree with the rules BSA has laid out for us to follow...we may attempt to change them (fat chance)through discourse with national BSA. But, if we do not follow the rules of our organization what kind of example do we set for those looking up to us? And sadly, (my boys understood this reason even more), If a lad is injured and we have not followed the rules BSA insurance does not cover our actions...our family could lose everything, money, house and certainly bank accounts...Both boys even the one that says "the adults have taken all the fun out of Scouting", understood that ramification... I fully agree that one way to demonstrate "the spirit of scouting" is following the BSA rules...(a hold over from the 'military' beginning of scouting?) Just as importantly, if I want to play in someone elses 'house' I play by their rules...I am not sure, however, that I agree with following those rules blindly, unquestioningly, nor quitely, "protecting" or not letting our charges hear the occaisional "grouse"...about "stupid lawyers and their rules"...Its part of the American experience; a healthy scepticism of unnecessary and/or abitrary rules (sorry Eammon, it's what we do). And, finally, once again I fall to the defense of the "bad guys"... the rule breakers...Without being there and "seeing" the whole story... we here in this forum have a tendancy to paint "those people" as twits (I love that word) or worst. (BW, the "death trap" post was WAY over the top!) When we have differences, lets discuss them and try not to take so much to heart. Passion is good...in fact its great but misplaced or unchecked it can distroy much. Try to keep in mind that very few men and women become scouters to distroy the system or hurt our kids...the vast majority started because they wanted to help and while we may disagree with their actions or methods we should not let it disrupt the flow of ideas. You can not educate or change anything with silence. Anarchist

NOTICE: Training and Planning are not dirty words! And we should not let the Scouts think that they are. Quite the opposite. Planning can be a very big part of the fun and excitement of a trek. But proper planning skills have to be taught effectively... Training is not a burden; training for an adventure heightens the appreciation for the activity and gives you something to do at troop meeting rather than just work on merit badges and rank requirement or offering up disjointed skills classes just because thats what lil' johnie needs...for first class. KUDU- I am hoping some of you comments are either mild frustation, resignation or even slightly tongue in cheek but I have to say I am rather distressed that a canoe trip is "better" by engaging an outfitter because " who wants to plan or train". Good gosh! Thats a large part of what we do with these young men. Planning a canoe trip, tracking down maps, reading elevations, locating campsites and rapids or fall, figuring out packing, food, water, transport shuttles, boat aquisition and hygiene requirements can be as engrossing as the N.Y. Times crossword puzzle (or perhaps trying to determine what your wife really meant the last time she said "fine, everything is just fine"). Training can fill your meetings with instruction that has a point...a purpose...water safety, first aid in the wilderness, fire building for cooking or LNT with backpacking stoves, river rescue techniques, Knots used in boating and rescue, pully and winch systems, let alone real tandem paddling skills that most summer camps never come close to teaching effectively... We start our first and second year boys at summer camp with swimming M.B., canoeing M.B., and lifesaving (if possible), then the first few meetings in September we work on skills and "waterless" techniques. We will start training on flat water in two weeks with a lakeside weekend camp and continue to build throughout the year. We will have two short weekend river trips, a white water rafting trip, and a monster 100+ miler (for only older scouts) and by the time we get "there" these guys are pumped and trained... IT IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT THAT the PLC (and many of the participants) be brought into the planning process. Sure its harder on the adults to "put up with the learning curve, the constant digressions and the normal, sensless stupidity of teenage boys learning to plan for real...but hey, that's why we get paid the big bucks. Handing over the sixty dollars per scout for something we can do ourselves is pure abdication of our duty to these youngmen. That is not to say every canoe trip can be done without a guide...just that if you have done a trip ("Its our favorite activity") and you know it to be safe, the boys should take over the planning and arrange the training schedule for future trips. Even on rivers you have not run before, a 5 or 10 mile hike alongside the river may be possible to scope out possible problems and potential camp sites... as well as filling another weekend with a fun adventure (fishing?)with a purpose. my $3.56 per gallon worth anarchist

One Hour, (please forgive the long post) In last 12 months our troop produced 6 eagles. 5 of these young men were 17.999yrs old as they "eagled out". One of the young Men (number 6) is just 17 and is now our SPL the others are off to college, though three of them are registered ASMs and when school allows them to help, they do. What kept them in scouting, our "RGG" (really good guy)disguised as a mild mannered SM, during their Eagle SM conferrence, asked all; What kept them in scouting...answers- (all the same by-the-way, though in somewhat different order) 1. "to see and hang with my friends" (not the younger scouts by-the-by - their older friends); 2."A challenging older scout program"; 3. "committed, active and supportive parents". Think for a minute...six boys at different private meetings came up with the same three reasons. 4 of these boys were all from the patrol...We use the NSP system and "try like heck" to keep the patrols together throughout their scouting career. They might change names, but they rarely change patrols. This gives them a support system of long time buddies and allows for friendly, peer pressure to encourage success. The old "I/We did it...and so can you", is really a good movivator for most boys. Our program is extremely heavy...most months we have two activities/events and only one is necessarily a "whole troop" activity. We send 75-80% of our guys to summer camp and at least one sometimes two crews to one of the high adventure programs...Seabase is the current troop favorite destination. The troop participates in most district events (camporees)...particularly if there are scout-skill contests involved...these guys love to compete and they do it well. In August of each year, the PLC "sets" the new annual program calendr after handing out an annual program evaluation survey on the return trip from summer camp. They statistically compile the results and do a rating of the past year's events and add to it a section compiling "new" wish list ideas from the scouts...(Giving the survey out right after Summer camp allows our first year summer campers to draw on their summercamp experiences in making suggestions to the PLC of what they would like to do or try.) For the older boys, we have caving, rock climbing, a 100 mile canoe trek, 10 and 20 mile hikes, 50 mile bike hikes and of course the High adventure summer trek for them to try as well as a klondike derby, beach camp, couple of weekend canoe events and service projects...(real physical work by the way) and white water rafting in the regular program to also interest them. And remember even "regular old campouts" should have a "program attached". They should not be just "hanging in the woods",(although thats nice too, on occaision). Too often, I hear of Scouts who quit because they were 'tired' of the "same old, same old" at campouts. When you asked what they did as a troop on campouts...it was -set camp, sleep, fix food, watch a fire, fix more food, sleep, break camp...but little or no 'cool stuff' (PROGRAM) going on! No wonder they get tired of scouting! Our ASMs, committee members and the SM all stay on them (older boys) like "flies" to keep them engaged...remember "Newton's First Law"... (a body at rest tends to stay at rest). We found a long time ago that you have to keep challenging these boys or they will simply "settle in" (inertia) and nix everything that's thrown at them...They teach their share of scout skills, but no more...lots of first class and stars can take some of that duty (and do so gladly with preparation and assistance from the PLC.)Some times they spend troop meeting time working on gear in the church parking lot(inventory, repairs, maintenance) and getting "paid" with soda and pizza (giving the younger boys subtle encouragement for what lies ahead). The "tougher stuff" actually gives the younger boys something else to look forward towards, as they gain skills and experience. And many, many new scout dads (and moms) are disappointed that they (and their sons) have to wait for a few years to participate, There are High adventure program/trek guides in the BSA literature that are great, the BSA field book is also a wonderful resource Merit badge subjects can be converted into adventures, and web surfing to see what other troops and venture crews are doing is a great way to "waste time" rather than mowing the lawn, taking out the trash or painting the kitchen! But it does take work...a top notch ASM (specifically for the older boys)and a great SM to train the PLC and "light fires" when needed. AND YOU NEED TO HAVE ACTIVE PARENTS FOR YOUR OLDER SCOUTS! IF they are not 'engaged' in your troop; call them in for a meeting and let them know the "score"...They need to support the program...even if it is just showing their sons that the family supports scouting and their scouts efforts...That the skills and experiences of scouting are valued by the family...Let them know, if they would be doing a "hand-stand" if "little Johnnie" scored a touchdown, a home run, a goal, a "pin" or a three pointer at the buzzer...then by gosh they ought to do a hand-stand when Johnnie makes tenderfoot, or builds his first fire, or makes Star, or earns a merit badge...or teaches a skill to another scout! That support is as important as helping with the troop work load ...(well ok, almost as important). Maybe they could see their way to doing both? Boy led does not mean adults have to cater to inertia...Train the PLC, retrain your older scouts and remember: some times several good figurative kicks to the backsides are needed for scouts and adults (parents and scouters alike) good luck and a good 'scouting year' to you! anarchist

Bob...lighten up no one talked about anything but cash money until I mentioned uniforms as is start...not ship...give some of us some credit....

My small office is matching our (the employees donations) and we have just hit $4,700 for the Red Cross! Also, though the Church and this week the troop is brain storming for a good helping hand project! And Folks, we might also want to start looking for old uniforms and checking with some of those friends who left the scouting trail to snag a few left-overs...gonna be a lot of lost uniforms out there! anarchist