anarchist

Active...don't ya love it! As the Bad boy of the week I'd like to jump in here... If I vote once in a while, am I policically active? If I watch Sunday football, eat wings, drink beer and scream alot...even toss a ball around occaisionally, am I active in sports? If I drive though town back and forth to work each day am I active in my community? If I go to church occaisionally, am I active in my Church? So why then , if my troop schedules 45 meetings, 12 camps and a 5 service projects every year, and I make only a few of them... am I to be considered an active scout? 50% sure seems reasonable to me. If I miss 50% of my sports practices or band practices I am out. If I miss 50% of my work I have no job. If I miss 50% of my classes I fail. If miss 50% of my guard drills I'm in trouble (unless I a Bush). If the BSA Charter agreement says the responcibility of the CO is to encourage active participation in an outdoor program why is it wrong to set some troop activity participation limits? Why should our boys who spend 7 or 8 years hiking, camping, sweating, teaching, sharing and striving have to contend with a "paper puncher" who does the minimum requirements and is never around...unless it directly affects his advancement? why shouldn't they know and expect that each scout will participate fully in the program rather than minimally? Unit spirit is bred and strengthened by its members facing the same challenges, sharing in the same trials and succeeding together. Allowing the "slick willy" to short change the troop program damages team building and patrol/troop identity. Years and Years ago in a Star BoR the candidate ask me to explain how a boy, who had never been seen by, quite literally, half the troop, could drop back into the troop (after two years awol) for a few weeks to "do" an eagle project and "earn his Eagle"...To him it was not fair...Where was this boy when the younger scouts needed a mentor? Where was the boy when the boys needed help on campouts? Where was this boy when we were doing service projects? How was it fair that he could get his Eagle and not participate in the troop activities...I talked and talked trying to explain "not adding or subtracting" requirement but I never convinced the young scout that what the troop did giving the young man his Eagle was right...somehow "following the BSA rules" just didn't cut it as an answer. Active is more than a word and I have doubts about leaving it to the scout to determine his own answer as to being active enough for rank advancement(as much as I love the idea of the wonderful theory of 'asking' the boy if he thinks he was "active" at his SM conference)...I have serious doubts if a boy with the brass to ask for a SM conference when he has not been active will answer "honestly", having just witnessed an eagle candidate self-destruct after building his own "house of lies". And Love ya OGE as much as I do...boys/parents can shop for troops...and they do... some like merit badge mills, some like eagle mills, some like hard working troops with challenging outdoor programs...As long as going in everyone knows the rules...then yes, telling a boy that he was not active enough for advancement in your troop is fair...if he wants a B.S. eagle...let him find a B.S. troop and program. Right now I am truely in pain because my youngest has just dropped out of scouting...he told his mom that he didn't want to be a scout any more because so many scouts he knew in school (other programs) were getting rank and merit badges for showing up and having a pulse...and in his opinion scout ranks were therefore a joke... so why should he have to work for it...it was working for nothing...( BTW this one is really lazy... great scout skills and was an excellent guide but if breathing wasn't automatic he'd stop because its to much effort)Scouting cuts into his computer gaming... even now however, I would still not change our program to a "feel good - hand out the ranks for breathing" one...just to keep him or any boy in the program. Active is Active not just being around. just rambling along... gh

gee and gee whiz lisabob, since you tarred me with the brush lets bring it out... I PM'd you to inquire why in your post on a cub scout matter...you seemed to say that a pack policy was "law" but in this thread the "mentioned" troop policy (if it was ever a policy)was seemingly out of line. I used the PM method because I did not want anyone here (in "public" so to speak)to think I was trying to indicate that, perhaps, I saw some hypocracy in you positions...I was just trying to sort out,again in private, the differences in what I was reading...intwo different threads. In the future please feel free to block my responces...and sorry, I didn't mean to be nasty, I actually thought I was trying to be more like... ah, discrete...and honorable. and condescending? hardly...perhaps exasperated with parents of young scouts who think the bright sparkle of scouting as seen in the eyes of an eleven year old just has to continue unabated for the next seven or eight years or there must be a problem with some poor twits program and with yet another example of how we in these forums are so quick to find fault with programs we have no real information on... but then I am not the one who started her post saying about a CC opinion/policy; she didn't know how he "could get away with it" and the policy was "nuts"...when, it according to the original post it was a CC stating his opinion in a troop committee meeting (not at a BoR)and not and as far as the post went it wasn't a stated as a troop policy...The committee is the place to hash out opinions and develop with the COs direction the policies or philosophy the troop will operate under... and beads comment...simply my version of your "with due respect" I am not the one denoting woodbadge with every post, now am I? oop, sorry guess that wasn't scout like either, huh? RedHonorScout-as Ed said...it's not easy to advance if you are not a member of the troop...participation as a CO policy could be a membership requirement and it would stop advancement...but IMO with out adding or subtracting....just a point of fact nothing more... nuff said Anarchist

hops_scout, athlegeek?! Love it! anarchist

yep, its true we are geeks...and scoutldr, isn't it cool! last year we had a parent "drop in" to give the troop an update on one of our Eagles who enlisted after high school...he went through basic and started training as an intel specialist...he told his mom everything was soooo easy and he was impressing the heck out of his instructors...He had done much of it as a scout...then the best! They had recommended this young man be accepted to the next class at the Naval Academy, don't cha love geeks! anarchist P.S. this kid ran state level cross country...geek?...NOT!

Hey Prarie_Scouter! no-names are not bad as long as you know what to look for, what you get, and whether or not the dollar paid equals "value"...and BTW- Jansport was not a no-name. For a while they were as good as kelty in serious camping..fact is I used a Jansport internal frame backpack last Monday night in a "backpacking for Moms" a class for new adults with boys in the troop (I called it backpacking 101- one of the moms asked for "Back packing for dummies" and I was elected to teach it). This bag is my favorite "grab, stuff and go" pack for more than a day but less than a week. I too, have a couple of cheapies...but both are South Korean knock-offs of the first 2 man timberlines (no vestibule, several inches shorter and more narrow but shock corded poles and 'knuckle's-no part to 'lose'!) These are actually nice tents (for $35.00) and after seam sealing the heck out of them they worked fine for years ....until I got old and stiff...now I use a 4 man (if I don't have to carry it far) I also have a neat coleman canvas "pop-up" dome tent ( get inside, 'kick the sides out where they belong and pull down on a handle attached to the center of the roof and it "POPS"-about 40 years old... and a coleman sundome family tent 10 years old, and a sweet Marmot two man ultra light -3 season that is almost all "netting" and floor for summer with a heavy duty rain fly for the rest of the year...3 years old... and 1 "marked" 1944 GI two section pup tent...thats a hoot -as long as you carry a bug net -toys, toys, toys good chatting and kenk...bungie cord is really cheap at REI and replacing it much less embarrassing over time than forgetting poles and giving the other scouters another story to tell around the campfire. acco 40- orennoah is right - have aluminum poles made for you tent...fibre glass just can't cut the real cold and it seems that the so called replacement packs for making your own fibre-glass poles use a lower quality glass than the original poles...Some of the new easton aluminium is incredible. Try contacting < tentpoles@comcast.net > they can make about anything and have the manufacturers specs on many bands of tents. You save on weight and don't shatter poles... grins anarchist(This message has been edited by anarchist)

1). Uniform is not required to be a scout...so how can you require it to travel? 2). two deep is only applicable in transport if driver would be alone in the car with the scout (a single- not your own son passenger)(good 'catch' FScouter) the uniform while traveling serves two purposes: 1).Advertising Scouting and 2). Boys in uniform are ever so slightly more aware that any "bad" behavior may be more noticed by the public. Trevorum- did I get that post right? You tell lies to your boys to get them to travel in uniform? Interesting idea but I am not sure I like it... anarchist

Sorry long post- Ed-Bingo...go to the head of the class! Lisabob- camping req. 9 is very clear you may count a week...not two or three long term (summercamps)..towards the twenty days and nights the rest camping are outside of Summercamp... thus... there is a restriction...as to what "counts", and my point was if BSA can determine what can be used for credit for a merit badge, so if the attendance % is troop/CO policy...whats the fuss? Ya don't agree with the way things are?, roll up those sleeves and work towards a change...but just don't expect a working (successful?) program to change just because the forum members are on your side....or some "book thumper" says its not the "BSA way"...cause ... the BSA folks can't have it both ways...if the CO "owns" the Unit...(by BSA own words and policies)...the CO can have its own requirements for membership... back in my younger days I kept hearing "love it or leave it" maybe I am finally beginning to understand...(naugh... just gas). and Lisabob...beads and all, ...with all respect...you have a lot to learn about boys and Boy Scouts...My comment about "Cindy lu" was both fair and accurate...having "followed" my now 18 yr old son and six of his Webelos II den-mates through scouting (and attending 5 eagle boards this past year and many before...)I've seen it -(heck I did "it"). I have also seen young boys "bail" on a campout while loading gear in the church parking lot because it was raining "like heck" and the weather man was calling for three more days of rain...it happens! But please, Please print and clip this thread..particularly your words... put it on your mirror so you don't lose it and if you "stay the course", look at your words when your son and his "buds" are 17...wanna bet what you will find? PM me and I'll tell you...from my experience, anyway....and it won't be the "programs" fault! FScouter...(sigh)...another BW type answer...look over the charter agreement... They differ very little council to council but you will find one of the COs responciblitiies is: to "conduct the scouting program according to ITS OWN POLICIES AND GUIDELINES as well as those of BSA" (FScouter-note whose policies come first? -COs...hummm) then there is the responciblity for the CO to "encourage OUTDOOR EXPERIENCES, which are vital elements of Scouting" (direct quotes, again) so if a CO takes that "requirement" "to heart" they are wrong? It also states "The Council agrees to Respect the Aims and objectives of the of the organization" , so logically if a units wants to have boys "active" in an outdoor program; expecting - requiring participation is not much of a stretch...it is not adding or subtracting it is an article of membership...check and mate? Once again we fall back into the "its not fair!" arguement...and as I have said before...it's the existing troops "game"...If I wanna play in it; I play by their "rules", or I can find a "better" game...or I can try to change those rules but I have to be willing to work hard and take my lumps...I can not expect to throw a "its not the BSA way" or "who are you to make those rules" tantrum and expect everyone to change for my own "gentle sensibilities". I try to tell my boys to make lemonade out of the lemons you get...it is not as easy maybe as buying a bottle of minute maid but in the end it is more satisfiying. last (for now) ...RedHonorScout...you are only right to a point; BSA, usually council, approves 'adjustments' for special scouts...but again NO UNIT or CO is required to accept, continue or renew membership of any scout...be it a physical, mental or 'participation' challenge...it is the CO/troops decision to allow membership not "BSA book thumpers"... and while I can not speak to scoutmoms5's troop retention rate... our membership numbers (excluding the NSP who join)usually hovers around 96%. Boys who join as NSPs (11yr olds) for the last six years- 83% age out at eighteen or Eagle out and become less active after they are seventeen...and we require 50% attendance...we also get about 60% of our NSP to first class by the time of their second summercamp...(85% of our boys take part in summercamp or high adventure camps annually - some do both.)33% of the NSP make first class by the end of their first year (March-March) Last year we lost five scouts who eagled and then aged out...three are now registered Scouters...so attendence requirements don't seem to make a big difference do they? anarchist and the darn shame of this subject is; not one of you would fault the high school coach for "benching" a boy for missing 50% of the practices...would you, but "scouts" is different...right? ;>)

Scoutmom, lisabob, and all, The scoutmaster has a lot to say about the program as should the scouts...but, as was said in one of the posts...the CO owns the troop and can have tougher membership requirements than the BSA. The CC "works for, and at the pleasure of the CO...as does the SM...they do not work (technically) for the scouts nor the parents (though thats why we do this)...if the CO agrees with the policy (or made the policy)...guess what...thats the policy... On "outings"...they are activities in this case it sounds like camping(?), so helping with younger kids is not "outings"...that should be easy to understand. Helping...may be considered in other advancement requirements (teaching younger scouts) but not as an "outing"...activity... Summercamp: funny, I don't hear anyone saying the BSA Camping Merit Badge which restricts the use (counting) of summercamp nights for total number of "camping nights" credit is crazy or not right? This type of "Policy" is designed by the Co(?)and/or troop committee to meet the needs and desires of the CO's program...(at least one would hope so) So for laughs, lets assume the CO wants the scouts in IT'S UNIT to be really active...therefore, they can set the policy for troop membership and level of activity whereever they like...no? yes? Is that unreasonable? It is their troop isn't it? No one forces any of us to join a particular troop, do they? So if you think its nutz...find a new troop or work within the existing framework for change...but don't be surprised if you get static. All that said, in our troop we have a written troop policy of 50 % meetings and 50% "outings" for advancement consideration(we call them activities and events) If they (outings activities, events) are on the PLC calendar they are counted...and Summercamp is counted...as 1 activity (not two or three or five or six...just 1). If a scout wants to do less than 50% thats great but he should not look towards advancement...(one of my sons found "this" a perfect fit-for a while, he loved to camp but not to "work" and "advancement" was not his thing...other son "Eagled" this summer and is now an ASM). If a scout is big in football (Soccer/band whatever) and has missed the last five camps for "sports, etc."... that's ok...but he will not get a SM conference for rank until he makes it to 50%...so it's not really a big issue...and if it would someday become an issue with a scout or his family...the CO (a church in this instance)showed the committee the location of all the doors in the scout area...just so we knew where they were...does that sound harsh? I don't think so...We give each scout and parent an orientation or three, a troop policy handbook and a good Q&A session...we do not sugar-coat things and it has certainly cost us some membership in the recent past but we have grown over the years from 15/20 scouts and are currently at 58 boys and seem to be doing well. And no, lisabob, not all campouts are fun in some troops...some of them are work and some of them require intestinal fortitude and after a few years some of them can be down right boring to the older boys who "have done it all" for four or five years...Sometimes it's the troop leadership's fault (program failure)and some times the boys are just going through the motions to last long enough to get to Eagle... And lets face it, a cold, wet camp is nowhere near as exciting as cruzing the local strip with Cindy-lu in the shotgun seat...staying home looks awfully good from a 16-17-18 year-olds perspective...which is great, (trust me, it is!) but if "it" becomes an issue the scout shouldn't expect the troop to advance him...just for being registered...In the end the CO determines the policy for membership in their unit...where is the problem in that logic? (or should I say let the howling begin?) anarchist

Great sized room! I would make shelf units for everything. Put content cards on the boxes and get so anal about organizing "stuff" that I'd drive our QM nutz! anarchist

Kittle, coleman is nice for summer...not much for winter...most have poly floors adding to the weight and the fly is a rain shield for gentle showers...not much more... $200 works but now the hard part...choosing a tent...I say that because opinions are like... er... "noses"; everyone has one...Are there any "real" outdoor outfitters near you? Reason being, its nice to touch and feel look inside even watch 'em put it up...(even if you buy on line). Kenk mentions some fine tents...our troop uses Eureka timberline XTs with built in vestibules and they are nice (I have two myself)but there are better true four season tents. The back country outfitter is an great tent also. Does his troop do back packing? if so you need to consider weight in the equation... too heavy and he can not carry enough gear...Mountain hardware and REI have some good equipment as does Marmot and Sierra look at their offerings and PM me if you think you have a couple you like...bit of advise- beware of "odd" little conectors on the poles of some tents ...your boy loses a little piece and he got a big problem. Kenk was also dead on as to venting...we leave the tops of our "A" frame doors open a bit in freezing weather- two of you sleeping in one tent can "put out" a quart of water vapor overnight just breathing...it can end up on the inside walls as ICE without venting. In winter camp "two to a tent" is critical... particularly for younger scouts. If one goes out for a "head call"- his buddy goes along to help avoid "getting disoriented and lost" or worse. And if one boy is having "difficulty" his buddy can alert the SPL or SM to avoid frost bite or worse. And two boys do create a little bit of heat (think I saw somewhere ...about 2-3 degrees in a good tent). Sleeping system- he has a good bag- 0 degree-(mummy?) He should also have a 1-1/2-2 inch self inflating mattress (r-value 3.5-4.0) or two closed cell mats. He should also be prepared with a "sleep set" consisting of a knit cap, light mittens (not the ones he wore all day), wool or thick synthetic socks and fleece warm-up suit to sleep in if he does get cold...and towo sets of chemical toe warmers with a second pair of socks as a back up emergency plan...(If he is freezing , he activates his warmers and puts then between is two pairs of socks -not directly against his skin...)with this system he should sleep well to -10 degrees. If you can not get a hands on a couple of tent "demos" locally get back to me and we'll work on it... anarchist

scouter 659, hate to say it son, but except for tossing around the term insuboordination and a "general" side of "dicipline"...you have not given anyone here anything to think about...let alone comment upon....and then there is the "Keep him" comment? Whos gonna fire him and for what? Are you afraid of or just confused about "boy led"? the SPL and the PLC are the first line for unit dicipline. sorry anarchist

ASM416, 8x2???? the plastic bins you have are ok for storing stuff in side but you want to look for the snap-lid (solid-no over lapping joints)for things that go out doors with you. if you can build some shelves (even cinder blocks and board)you can get it off the floor and you can remove the box in the middle or on the bottom without moving the upper layers. On the GI tents and artic shelter...don't know where you live but if you have a Fourth of July parade/small town type festival, or Veterans Day event you might think about your boys using the old stuff set up next to new "stuff"- sort of "then and now" display...could be real 'cool'. remember to keep air circulating between stuff, it help fight mildew and mold. I hope it's well lit - makes finding stuff easier. When you do figure out what to keep and where it goes... do up a "placement plan" (a drawing of each wall/shelf and what goes where)...keep copies on file but post one on each wall or shelf unit (use plastic sheet protectors). That way almost anyone can figure out where to put something so you can find it next time it is needed...no just tossing stuff back in the room. good luck and let us know if you need more help! anarchist

Kittle' Without knowing what he has now and where he camps its hard to get real specific. BUT....generally speaking a true four season tent has certain design features built in that make it more winter friendly. they are usually "pricy". these can include: A rain or weather fly that completely covers the entire tent right down to the ground on all sides.(some high $ tents have two flys -one for mild weather one for winter) Poles designed to take a heaveier wind load or snow fall (shed snow better). More tie down points also called storm ties. The "shape" may addd to wind stability on sheding snow. Heavier stitching and seams. Thicker fabric less mesh (makes for heavier tents for carrying. Better water-proofing (thicker mls tighter cloth). Equipment space- real vistibules not little 'porches'. Some have two doors and two vestibules. But...many have single fairly small round doors.... Many are smaller than you expect for "two man tents"...larger is colder.... some may even have a large enough porch area for "cooking" in cruddy weather...though most Scouters really discourage flame and tents....or flame in tents.... mesh... is not the problem if he has a completely "closed" weather fly. though many four season tents have less than three season tents....but it (mesh) makes the tent usable in summer.... I think to be "specific" requires you to know what price range are you comfortable with? Are we talking $150, $200, $300, more? Two man? One man? REI, Eureka, ALPS, North Face, Kelty, Mountain Hard Wear, Big Agnes (yes, thats the name)Marmot, Sierra Design...all make good 4 season tents... be glad to help if you need more... gear head and loving it....toys! toys! toys! anarchist

ManassasEagle, Glad your boys saw through the smoke and mirrors! Tell them to keep those eyes open and scouting will be a great lot of fun...and a life long run of memories and activities... good luck on three and four! The merit badge "system" doesn't have to be "broke" if we parents and adult leaders will make just a little more effort...it might be a bit different but it does not have to be "group think and group speak"...it can be very close to one on one...with effort! heading just a little south of the junction... anarchist(This message has been edited by anarchist)

Manassas Eagle can you say "merit badge mill" Bull Run District has "better" troops than that keep looking! I frequently took my son to meet councelors at the library or at at Mcdonalds... or two scouts to the counselors home...heck, once I even waited at the mans home (playing pool and losing to the guys ten year old daughter)while he ran through his program with number one son... We routinely find two or three M.B. counselor names for our scouts to call for their merit badges...sometimes even in Manassas...and I can recall only once bringing a counselor to our troop meeting in nine years...look hard and long at that troop...and check out a few more! (probably run by a bunch of yankees) Anarchist in the Commonwealth(This message has been edited by anarchist)

Fleetfootedfox, Gosh, your wife wouldn't be one of "THOSE" women jocks would she? (you know ...one of "those"...?) Man, don't you just hate stereotypes... Cubbing is hard for many guys...too much nurturing and arts and crafts...in the early years. I guess when you are not confident in you "manliness"...darn, there it goes again, you know, that stereotype thing! Me, heck, I just wanted to share some really good times with my boys. And I wanted to help other boys (whose parents were too cool to get dirty in the woods) "grow" an appreciation for the outdoors and their country...real geeky, I know. 'Course Boy Scouting isn't quite so geeky, but it's close... I am sure that she will find rapelling, cave crawling, white water rafting, 100 mile canoe trips and fifty mile hiking trips, sailing, horseback riding, archery, rifle and shotgunning just "so un-cool". And the fact that many troops have "real hunks" (as my Son's girl friend likes to say) who play soccer, football, baseball, track and field, cross country runners, "rasslers", national honor scholars and yes even a few geeks, it is just plain embarrassing to think of her son (and husband, heaven forfend!)associating with them... but really, when I do finally grow up I'll come explain the real world to her...if I can pull myself away from my horses, canoes and my sons...(take a deep breath and repeat 100 times..."she's the mother of my child...shes the mother of my...." Anarchist (oh yes I make a killer sour dough dutch oven bread!)

watercub, All you need is to format an excell spred sheet to suit your needs...but if you have a QM (I hope) it should be his job to design and implement...you can give him ideas of what you think might be needed but it will/can help him "own" the QM position...if that is not an option let me know I can send you what our QM has used.... anarchist

Welcome ASM416, as a bonifide troop gear-head, I'd like to help you out...but what is the size and layout of your room? Does it have shelves? can it have shelves?.. and what does "50 years worth of stuff" look like? My troop was nearly fifty when we joined and didn't have many pots...to carry water with! Lets start with the easy "stuff". You need to have a gear day and pull everything out. Make a long list. tents and tarps and ground cloths- set em up/roll em out, inspect for damage, missing parts and usefulness...best thing for tents are bags...and a trip to a discount fabric place can set you up with cheap material (mill ends are reall cheap...) if a parent has a sewing machine you are "home free", if not some heavy thread and heavy needles and the boys can have a "sewing bee"...paterns are easy. Tarps can be just rolled and "roped with pins and ropes in-side but bags are best! Depending on the material of ground clothes you can roll em tight and use rope or large rubber bands to "hold em tight" and store them in the tent bags or in a separate large bag (old duffles work)...PM me if you need help... Any tents that are determined to be junk...junk them, but not before canabalizing anything useful...poles, rain flys even hardware (like hooks or pins) if the tents are all the same make this is very important. You can also cut some tent material, "free" for future patches... ground cloths..repair holes tarps check for missing grommets and repair if needed...may need to re-waterproof... shelves in a room make life easier- you do not have to move the junk on top to get to the junk on the bottom. plastic "totes" are wonderful...you can store kitchen gear by patrol in one box. Wooden patrol boxes are my favorite! As you list every thing that comes out of the room...give every thing you keep a good cleaning and make sure it operates...clean and fire up each stove or lantern...or recondition and repair. suggestion...if you have propane lanterns like the coleman two mantle units- the small two gallon plastic paint buckets (with snap on lids), you can get at hardware and paint store make great storage containers. By drilling an appropriate size hole in the top of the bucket and laying 'round the inside a "top to bottom" coccoon of thin foam rubber you have a great way to transport the lanterns with less globe and mantle damage. The "hole in top" centers the top "threaded nut" and keeps the lantern from slopping around...the hole should be large enough to fit over the "nut" or knob without dismantling the lantern (ya don't need to undo the nut to open and close the lids...) If you have less than 'lovable' stuff that is still usable... either put it in the back of the storage room for future "emergency needs" or think about donating it to a less well equiped troop. We use a trailer for our outdoor gear and do an annual inventory - tents, tarps, kitchens, lanterns, first aid kits, poles, ropes, axes, saws, and files, hoses, propane tanks, distribution "T's" water cans, gray-water cans, fire box contents, canoes, sail boat, flags, etc.-results go on paper and are transferred to disk and soft copies are sent to the committee. QM keeps a master copy as do I (QM mentor-equipment guy). QM has a lap desk style clip-board with repair tickets for each piece that has an "accident" (and is repairable) I assist him in these repairs as needed. This clipboard also has "activity inventory sheets". AT each campout tents are issued to scouts and recorded by name. Wet tents go home to be air dryed and returned at the next meeting. Scouts "sign tents in" as dry and complete or "noting" any damage or missing items...(for which they are responcible- ie. repairing or replacment) QM starts making phone calls if equipment is not returned. This system also "allows" for the next campout when "scout johnnie" returns to the trailer after opening up his tent, and says..."my tent is missing a pole or has a tear or has no lines and stakes", QM can open the clipboard and "get up front and personal" with the scouts who borrowed the tent at the "last" event...or at least the last time that tent was used any event. Each kitchen (wooden box with fold-down doors -work areas) and tarp is designated (named and numbered)for a particular patrol...pheonix, disco donkeys, scorpions, tiberwolves, etc for as long as that patrol exists...thus, if it's dirty or something's lost... they deal with it or replace it before the next inventory... QM makes sanitation inspections every so often to make sure stuff is reasonably clean...BTW- EVERYTHING IS CLEANED on the CAMPOUT! Nothing goes home for Mom to clean. In the end it (tossing stuff)will depend on your future expectations and goals...(going to grow?) and your perceived financial ability... Can you raise money for what you may toss aside now, but decide you need later? If not, store it in the back of the room (with the spiders). Word to the wise -old is not necessary bad! I picked up two white gas lanterns and two white gas stoves at a scout troop yard sale...They were old, dirty and didn't work...you know "for sale - for parts"- for a dollar each...Put all four appliances in working order for under $25.00... grand total under $30.00! The Coleman single mantle lantern (classic red) puts out more light than most double mantle lanterns and only needed the old leather pump oiled and stretched plus a new mantle! One more thing...if there are more cub packs in your area. Go talk to them about checking out your troop...troops do not have monopolies on cub packs...Our Troop now gets more new scouts from "other packs" than we do from our historic "feeder" pack! shine on shine, shine on lantern light ... anarchist

Lisabob and msnowman, Well lisabob, your row is gonna turn out the easier to hoe...it sounds like you have a fairly progressive (no, you conservatives out there; it's not a dirty word)troop. they seem to be active (outdoors wise) and at least have a program for NSPs which gives your scout many more opportunities than Michelle's nephew... so lets start at the top...inititive- ask yourself...when 'boy' wants new game...does he have problem asking? Not hardly. When son wants a pizza...any problems asking? probably not. The bigest difference is "strange" adults and older boys...who need to be asked. Your scouts need to understand that asking for opportunity is not a challenge to authority if done properly...And the handbook helps here. If scout has "book in hand" (it should be nearby at nearly all times) and says, "wow" I need to build a fire... can I build our fire on the next campout? The answer is likely to be yes...and if said in front of the ASM/SM the yes is a near certainty. But from years of watching this unless you "force" the boys to "own" the experience...they get real comfortable waiting for mom or someone else to do it for them. Next...I said he could/should learn a lot at home...not be taught at home...fire for instance...the Handbook has about 8 pages...of material that he can practice at home with out striking a match...practice building the different lays, identify and collect a good supply of different tinder types...he needs to be prepared so when the chance to learn and be tested presents...he is ready for the opportunity. Parent support and encourage...it is his job to be ready... Since you (lisabob) have an ASM to work with do so...let them hear that "discouragement" is popping up. Ask right up front what progress he expects from the NSP and what the assigned DL is supposed to do (duty wise)...from "vast" experience (four years as NSP mentor)I find many guides/ DLs become just like some Moms and Dads...letting the New Scouts do "it" (whatever "it" is) is so mentally painful and so much more work...it is just easier to do it himself and let the new scouts play or maybe watch. This can be brought up easily by your scouts in an I "need to cook" (pick a site, whatever) discussion. And you can buttress the request in the committee room and in coffee breaks with the ASM/SM. Michelle, unfortunately if the only camping your troop does is three or four camporees and summercamp...you have a lot of problems. For starters Most camporees are so "program heavy" there is almost no time for "non essential extras" Last year we had a camporee with 16 skill stations that the boys had to visit and participate in, over the course of a day (and still eat meals and clean up)... It may be time to see if the troop would support some targeted patrol campouts...designed to help fill advancement requirements...ask the ASM?SM and suggest to the DL but be prepared to have to support the "program"...if they don't come up with an alternative. When we jined our troop it had a good outdoor program but it had no provisions for young scouts they were left to sink or swim on many activities...our solution was to help enhance the program...we started looking for ways to give a better program mix to the younger boys...since we were not messing with the older scout program and were willing to do some of the heavy lifting we were left to do nearly anything we wanted to do...before long we had other patrols asking to go along on some of our adventures... Lets get creative with the hike he needs...did you really read the requirement?...It does not say it has to be in a wilderness or even the woods...in fact it says using a "compass and a MAP YOU HAVE DRAWN"...not even a professional "Real" map...now how is 'junior" supposed to draw a map of a area he has never visited? I do not know where you live...urban, suburban or rural but there are several ways of skinning this particular cat...if you live in a subdivision get the car out and drive through your community with your nephew. Figure a street route of five miles (odometer) then have nephew draw a rough map...street "A" is .71 miles, road "B" is .20 miles, "C" boulevard is 2.75 miles...etc. til he has five miles on his map. show it to the SM and ask for approval...maybe even ask him to assign an older scout to show your nephew the compass techniques...but in the end the buddy system is not required (though he could show a non scouting friend his compass skills during the walk)...have him "shoot" and record the directional bearing of each "turn" on his map...and he is ready for the sign off... your boys need to look out for opportunities to advance and be ready (prepared)...when they are presented. One point I really want both of you to try to understand...Older boys are ...er.. boys, and even the best of them get tired of "baby sitting and always teaching the little kids". I learned this from my Oldest (now an Eagle chasing girls in college). When he was a new scout (a real competitor...driven to be the best...very anal) he was always... ah,... lets say "griping" about the OLDER SCOUTS never being "there" for him and his patrol and that when he was an older scout he would help the younger boys... Some how he got through...and as he matured, the SM and SPL would ask him to teach, to demonstrate, to mentor...and darn if he didn't start "griping" about 'having a life' and wanting to hang with the older scouts and not baby sit....thusly giving me the opportunity to remind him of his words and finding some of those few wonderful "parent moments" of "helping him eat his words". WE expect a lot from these older boys, sometimes they need motivating and they always need a pat on the back when they do well. I have no problem with "newbies" asking questions and wanting changes...as long as they are willing to roll up their sleeves and work for the program...but they must understand that boy led is nowhere near as efficient as adult led and most days we seem to take two step forward one step back and some days its only one step forward and two steps back...these boys are learning the system, learning to think for themselves, learning to teach and learning to lead...now thats a lot to ask anyone to do...and have fun while doing it! walk gently and carry a big coffee cup anarchist

lisabob, see my posts in the "dumb question" and "another stupid question" threads... I am too slow to type it again today... On "inititive"...how long did it take "junior" to ask for a game boy or nintendo or play station or an i pod???? when he got the game did he have any problem teaching himself to play? not to be flippant here, but on "initative" I rest my case....unless of course there is an intrinsic difference in the posession and use of toys vs something that smells strangely of education, knots and work... the rest I have answered for you as best i could not knowing these questions were coming... but i ask a return set of questions- What does the troop do ...that you are unhappy with? why did you select this troop? Do they have a troop policy document? Have you read your sons Handbook? Do you know these (difficult?) skills and(tenderfoot/second class) requirements? Are they beyond the measure of an 11 year old? Did your son go to summer camp with his troop this past summer? Are you a registered scouter in your troop ?(sorry loaded question) I will be interested in seeing the posts...from all anarchist

Lisabob I am not trying to talk down to you (either of you)here, just probing the ground...your boy has been a scout for 8 months (crossed in Feb?) has not reached Tenderfoot... some informational questions... Does troop have a NSP (new scout patrol)? You mentioned an assigned patrol leader, is he the troop guide? Is there an ASM assigned to the NSP (if you have NSPs)? How many campouts has your boy been on since February? What does he do on these campouts? Have you and your son read the Scout Handbook together (or even alone/separately)? Does he carry his handbook in his pack to every campout? Did he go to summer camp this year? What skills is he not learning? specifically? I ask these question because I just finished this same discussion with a mom and a dad-who is an eagle, (different families- same concerns)at back to back committee meetings. They both thought our meetings should be little factory floors... churning out requirements for rank and merit badges...it was a very long night. Neither boys or parents had done more than flip through the book...(one noted her son was ADHD and had problems with books) -thus my question about parents reading the book... If these boys are participating in an active outdoor program they have probably done most of the tenderfoot and some of the second class work...if you look at the requirements these are not hard skills... examples- Tenderfoot- requirement 1.) Present yourself to your leader properly dressed...show your camping gear... etc... 2)Spend at least one night on a patrol or troop campout in a tent you have helped pitch... 3) on thecampout assist in preparing and cooking one of your patrols meals... 4.whip a rope and tie a tauntline and two half hitches.... and it is all in the book... This is not graduate level calculus...with just a minimum amount of "assertiveness" like ah, just... asking, he (they all) should be able to do this... the "test" is usually a demonstration or a discussion. More importantly, if he has been active, he should be able to sit down with his PL or the ASM / SM and get lots of things straightened out and signed off by presenting his book and telling what he did in many of those camps...As a scout your parents don't have to be eagle scouts...but you have to want to do the work. If the boys carry the handbook and KNOW what requirements they need to achieve for the next rank (you do have to read the book, not just look at the pictures) they can do something in camp and "whip the book out" for a "sign off". Or, on the next car trip home from a campout, if he knows that he needs the Buddy System check off...(requirement 9), he discusses it with a ASM or PL or older scout on the ride home, and..."out comes the book" for another "sign off" Much of the first several ranks is "regurgitation" of stuff they learned as Webelos with just a little more detail...much of it is just "read and repeat" what's is in the book...requirement # 7) "repeat from memory the oath, Law and slogan and explain in your own words what they mean..." And again, I am not trying to be disrespectful but I find a big disconect between Cub parents and the Boy Scout program. The program offers a trail towards Eagle and some of the support to get there...not a nightly class room...and the boys have to be ready to learn, even eager! But in the final analysis, our boys have to do some growing and accept a little more responcibility at each level...most of all they have to start taking on the responcibility of knowing where they are at in the process and what they need to do to advance.... Classes at troop meetings are generally prepatory to troop activities in the coming months not individual rank advancement classes...and the individual scouts need to be awake enough to see when there is an opportunity to use the 'prep class" material for advancement potential... like first aid for the next hike gives the new scout an oportunity to learn the first aid for most of the tenderfoot requirement (which also has a lot of the "readyman" requirements from Webelos...) We need to be aware that the troop has to guard against becoming a week night class room and taking the "fun" out of scouting for many more boys... Now that you hate me more than dust mites... If your troop does not have a New Scout mentor program of some kind - you might volunteer to help here. Just repeating your concerns at meeting and at committee meetings can help...but do so constructively and as in our troop any time someone has an idea or a problem thay can expected to be asked to help solve it...No experience needed! We use troop guides- Older scouts who "mother hen" (sorry) the boys through their first year- (the new scouts all rotate as their own patrol leaders in two month assignments -including attending the PLC meeting)and we have an assigned New Scout Assistant Scout Master to watch everything and monitor progress. Just having a registered leader looking over his shoulder (without saying a word) might energize the young PL into working harder to get his boys "going". I look forward to more information if you are still "talking" to me. Anarchist

CNYScouter, hi, wasn't trying to bust your chops just addressing the spin-off question with limited knowledge of your situation and concerns... Your last answer was about troop requirements rather than about what do we look for in (good) Scouters. so lets look at your "troop requirements": SM - Woodbadge Trained...Why? Is it a "magic" type thing? Lets see...in nine years I have seen four SMs one was burning (burnt out) when we came to the troop, one was just a fill in 'til someone else stepped up('bout 13 months) and the last two have been great...our "newbie" SM only six months on the job is being mentored by the last SM, who I would "stack" up against any Woodbadge trained SM in the country...I truely feel my boys were blessed to hike along-side this man for a while(and if you knew me...you'd understand the word "blessed" rarely rolls off my tongue). Is he perfect? ...no, but he is great with boys and Eagle himself and a realist...(and he loves to be outdoors.) Really uses and understands the patrol method... great! we have been working on this for nine LONG years...and it is still hard...but would I let that stop me form joining a troop that was working well and most important that my sons felt good about...probably not...and besides, you could always slowly educate and influence the troop to evolve...unless you just need everything "handed" to you...painlessly. (wouldn't it be nice!) Has 20+ active scouts... many many troops are small..it doesn't make them bad The first few meetings My sons attended had a grand total of fifteen scouts and that included the five boys that crossed with my oldest son...we are now 58 registered scouts (it was sixty but one left for martial arts and my youngest just resigned from scouting after "star"...'cause he doesn't want to do the scouting thing... go figure). Point is we (together) built the troop up (so much so that we created a whole new set of problems and we had to find a new CO...)So IMHO Size does not reflect quality... Is boy led- admiriable...and a lot of work...we started in this troop "that was boy led"... if having the SM do all the work and planning then dictate what was going to happen to the SPL for execution...it seemed to work, but heck, we slowly changed that also... I will say that the Old troop's "Boy led" was a whole lot less work than our current version...each year we sweat bullets training the new SPL and the PLs...and scouts. I just sat in on a PLC and it was painful watching the SM have to drag out each point of the monthly plan from the new SPL and hint and suggest and walk this young man through the meeting...the old way was SSSOOO MUCH easier...but it is not what we wanted for this troop so we train and train and train some more...some years are better than others but it never is "easy", and you are never really finished. has a good outdoor program- best requirement I can see here...My kids both loved the idea of the troop's canoe trips 12 to 15 campouts and camp service projects, and especially the annual PAINT BALL WEEKEND... Man! Did I become "Mr. Hard ---" when we deep sixed the Paintball...but we added caving, hiking, long distance biking, beach camping a couple of new canoe trips, acquired a bunch of our own tents, canoes, trailers and a sail boat...but, again it became what we were willing to "put into the program... And CNYScouter I am really notbusting your chops here, I am just trying to say that (I think)you needed to look at everything and look hard before asking the DE for a "perfect" troop to interview. Most of us "scouters" like our programs have warts...but we still can be darn fine friends. If it is not perfect(the program) can it be made better? Are you willing to put in the time and effort? Of course some of us just can not do the work and we really need the BSA program to be a "Baby Sitters of America"...spotlessly clean, a corporate model of perfection, wrapped in a uniform delivered on a silver platter...god, I wish! Anarchist (and the rest of you get off my side...it makes me real nervous)

(boy oh boy, he says as he warms up his two typing fingers) I wonder, (a lot of things actually, like has FSouter become Mini-BW), But in this case perhaps we have entered into the trap of "real world" vs the "BSA perfect world". Personally, the farther from unit level scouting I get the less reality I see. (like all piramid schemes- the closer to the top you are the farther from real work and the real world) Gosh, it would be nice if everything worked by the book and if every young man could/would be entertained and engaged by simply standing infront in a full "Class A" Uniform...reading from BSA manuals...but it doesn't "always" work that way... I tend to be a "big tent" kinda guy...Each unit is gonna have its "warts" and if you overlook the twits you can usually find something of value in almost all "scouting programs". And when reading forum posts I am usually quite skeptical of the "facts" presented and the intention of all parties, I try not to try, convict and execute with my reply but probe the situation and offer real world ideas for working through the problem. The troop I am involved with generally operates the same way...so it's a nice fit... We deliver a heck of a program, but I am sure we cross some lines, miss some methods and bend some rules as we go along...but I would go "head to head" with anyone who said because we missed doing it the way it says to on "line 47, para 12, page 10, of publication 1073 dated july 2004"...its not a good scouting program...thats just B.S.! When listening to the "holier than thous" spout off about the Aims and Methods being the true path to the holy grail, I usually just grit my teeth and think..."that's nice". Perhaps CNYSoucter (in the originating threat for this thread) can't find any soul mates because he expects perfection (I don't know?) which (news flash!)usually does not exist. More likely he is still suffering from the increased blood flow from his BSA training and hasn't settled down yet...(who knows?). But I continuely get a kick out of folks "newly arrived" into on going programs who don't like something, someone and stamp their feet and want it immediately changed to meet their expectations...and when it doesn't happen the BSA AIMS AND METHODS MANTRA begins....and its always the twits fault for not following the methods...And trust me, I have been there, done that and bought the tee shirt! I have spent the last nine years helping in a major effort turning a program, not around maybe, but certainly into a new direction. We rolled up our sleves and went to work from the inside and helped drag our troop into the 20th century (maybe soon we will enter the 21st?). Unless I missed something Scouting is a volunteer "movement" that "owns" only the "program", not the units. And that it franchises out to Charter Organizations to run units as extentions of their youth outreach programs... I would think, if you want perfection, you would put a paid BSA trained "robot" SM in each unit...Otherwise we are dealing with the short comings and flat out failures of the human condition (multiplied by a factor of two for each unit member). Delivering "THE SCOUTING PROGRAM" in many cases is doing your best (even if it doesn't meet the Methods and Aims police muster), to engage 10, 20, 60, 100 young men of wildly differing back grounds, ages and interest levels in a game of "how do we grow up Trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly ...etc.", while building great experiences and memories and instilling a sense of patriotism and character...and having fun...(something BSA seems to be forgetting more and more every year). Is our program BSA perfect HECK no! But we try. Are we delivering the scouting program...I think so, but some of the members of this forum might not. But as long as we continue to help "grow" good young men, and a stronger local scouting program, I am happy; (satisfied? no, but that's human nature), gotta go...is that the sound of the BSA Police knocking down the front door??? Anarchist

Eamonn, The desk sitting Dweeb is a distant relative of the classic Twit. The Twit being far more active and having numerous and loud vocalizations sounding like ME, ME, ME. The Twit generally displays many more color phases, with numerous patches of bright color, particularly during the mating season (where the usual object of affection is a large rock or perhaps an old log). The Desk sitting Dweeb presents usually a more drab display in the various color phases and tends to blend in to the environment. They can be found hiding behind phones, computers and adding machines. Vocalizations are usually limited to croakings that sound something like, "you can't do that", or "it's not allowed" and sometimes the sound is something like "NO!". Dweebs do not breed atleast they appear to be sterile but scientists believe that a phenomena much like that of cow birds inserting their own eggs in the nest of others operates in the dweeb life cycle. Both the dweeb and the Twit can be found in the same evolutionary lines as the dodo bird, Neanderthal and ACLU attorneys. (see I was listening in Biology class at University) Anarchist

CNYScouter, Thought about your question a bit...I like Eds words. In our troop we have 60 registered Scouts and 28 registered Scouters...not all are REAL "leaders", some are "worker bees", some are gap fillers, some are utility players, and a couple border on...(er, whats the technical term?)...NUTZ...But they all give their time, efforts, money and hearts towards making our boy's BSA experience the best it can be and to building an "institution and tradition" that will last beyond their tenure. Wood Badge...Sue most likely is closer to the mark...some exceptional Scouters have the time and money to do it...but you would probably be impressed if you had met them prior to W.B. (some, perhaps not). Sometimes a landslide starts with the movement of a single pebble...and I do not discount the contribution of a single volunteer...In the end, it's what's in the heart and what a Scouters abilities allow...(we have an old guy who shows up at the committee meetings and monitors District Round Tables for us...his Health allows for little else)...but his desire to help is "there" and his willingness to go to roundtable gives a more "active" scouter a breather...Is he less a scouter? I don't think so... So maybe it's like the cliche about "art" ..."I can't describe it, but I sure as heck know it when I see it!" just a thought... Anarchist