anarchist

Potato guns are fun to build and to operate...heck they are even fun to watch when they shoot.... that said... I would say (IMHO) the liability to the unit and the CO far outweigh the unit building value...except in that you expect get a 'rush' from doing the "forbidden fruit" thing. The Plastic plumbing pipe may or may not be structurally strong enough to handle the blast generated by a two second "spray" of hairspray follwed by a flick of the installed 'bic' (flint striker). Do you have a plastic expert that can demonstrate the safety of the material? Or a chemistry/control combustion expert who can quanitfy the interior (breech) pressures exerted by a two second burst of hairspray when ignited or a three second burst?? The problem here is one of accepting liability for unknown (unknowable?)loss potential...(risk). As individuals we can readily assess and accept (or reject) risk as a measure of having 'fun'...or doing an experiment...but as Scout leaders, do we have the knowledge or ability to assess the potential risks of experimental explosive devises? Do we have the knowledge or ablity to accept the risks for the unit, CO, or BSA?...sorta doubt it. I like OGEs idea build a trebuchet- set up a real big safety range rope of firing line and chuck "punkins"... anarchist

I am not Richard Dawson, nor do I play him on TV...but THE NUMBER ONE ANSWER IS: "my kid is "out" of scouting...." (sub catagories; aged out, eagled out,doesn't like it...) The Number two answer is: "I don't like the way they (the old gang) run the troop...." The number three answer is: "I am tired of dealing with '---- ---' (you fill in the blanks) parents" The number four answer is: "I am tired of having no help" The number five answer is :"I am tired of dealing with BSA (DISTRICT, COUNCIL) B.S." just a wild guess though.... anarchist

to all: (yes, even you FScouter:>)! May the Great Master of all Scouts provide all the turkey and stuffing you can gobble and the awareness to be greatful and generous...for all your blessings! Anarchist

great topic...will be interested in all the ideas...Does SFF count? This year we have helped on a river cleanup, painted the 'public areas' of a "facility for troubled youths", cleaned up trails in a regional park, cleaned up an area at a church owned farm and started a multi-year effort developing a youth/church members retreat/campsite- complete with a large brick fire pit circle... The guys helped with a community "walk a thon" (Farm Walk), did the set up for a cancer survivor over-night (24 hour)"walk a thon" We also "handle" the put-up/take down of American flags along the local town "main street" (about 100 flags) for an annual Hometown festival, Memorial day, Flag day and the 4th of July (We do this as a service to help the local Ruritans) Anarchist

dan, dan, dan... I never said I was an expert...(quoting BW here-don't put words in my mouth!)...just that I have had my share of first aid training...and I was unwilling to hypothetically "suspend my adult leader status 'cause I had a bunch of answers to FScouters ABCD quiz...and I bet you didn't try to construct the 5X5 matrix...or really try to ponder my posts...I am afraid it seems you, like others simply grab a bone and want to repeat "off with their heads! Off with their heads...!" How constructive is that? Your advice to the scout/scout dad in the second paragraph was much better and right on...however I am not sure about your dismissal of the Board...I have seen a troop turn around...it wasn't easy but I have seen it work in real life...with the troop my sons went through. I have seen both the "lets bang heads" and the "lets work this out method" and I know the "bang heads method" is more wrong and needlessly hurtful. Working within is harder, longer and sometime frustrating, but for the long haul it is better for scouting... And FScouter (again credit for saying "If"... as in "If failure to know the 'abcd' resulted in failure of the review..."(good job! maybe there is hope!) on the ABCD- joeleeper wrote, " My son was told it is important to know but that it is not in his Scout Book" no mention. anywhere in the post of that causing failing the board...just a comment made by a member...FScouter - you have never shared a thought with a boy? something you felt would be good for him to know... that wasn't in the book? some points of the original post: 1.)the boy was very upset and HE said he failed the BoR. 2.) according to what I read the post said; "the Board advised my son that some boys were not ready to advance yet" ...now a question, did the BoR say fail???doesn't look that way to me 3.)father posts, "then he was quized on first aid and CPR specifically..." now a comment...seems like a good place for a board member to introduce the "ABCD (and 's')", to help said boy remember his CPR tasks, after all thats what the ABCDs tool is all about...helping one remember the steps! 4). father posts, "isn't the board...required to give specific items to improve on and set a specific date for another attempt? ...comment- two very good questions...but remembering we are dealing with a very upset (his words) boy here...perhaps he was told and simply did not process, nor retain the information due to his "disappointed" state of mind... and as to the setting a date for a second BoR...for our troop, in our church...we only have the scout room on a repeating open schedule...all other facilities we must contact the church secretary and Pastor to schedule use...and some troops have additional 'manpower' (people-power?) problems with 'staffing' BoRs, so again setting a date before checking is problematic. And once more into the breach..."Mr. anarchist" (thanks Mr. FScouter) knows we get less than perfect knowledge of situations in these posts...thats why "he" cautions against the "Off with their heads!" wholesale condemnations...that some here serve up like mashed potatoes! ;>) good night and good luck! Anarchist

gee, dan, calm down, put the whole 5X5 puzzle together and see what it looks like or PM me with an email and I will send it to you...If you care to look again at my posts- my first post was fairly tame and while long, non confrontational and hopefully instructional. The second was again mainly informational... for the group(still no ABCD "stuff" because I took joeleepers 'question' about "d" as really a non-issue, and 'cause it was not really pertinent to what I was trying to get across..the ABCD "stuff" (third post)was aimed at our friend FScouter who tossed out the left handed challenge that any Adult who didn't know the answer (to the ABCD "stuff" should perhaps be willing to be suspended...(hypothetical?) (a negative impact like the young scout experienced?) And I was demonstrating there were lots of answers (and correct I might add...if you really read the post). AND FScouter- we have only part of the story (unless you have more than we do?)... the original post was written by a dad who was not there....day after the BoR. DID he fail or was he not ready? Did the board not know when the next available board would sit? Sometimes these things are not as easy as you seem to think they are. DO you really know the boy was not told what he needed to do? We only have a third party story...(remember the whisper game from cubs scouts- what we hear is not necessarily what was said) and as far as the "no letter issue"- FScouter- For gosh sake how much time did you give this "rogue" Board to write a letter before you condemned them?...lighten up for crying out loud...the board may or may not have done everything the boy said but none of us were there ...so rather than condemn; why not try to guide the father (who intelligently, I might add, did not want to over-react to all this) Direct him towards not only diplomatically "advocating" for his son but also mentoring him to be better prepared in the future...If done correctly the whole troop can benefit! If done the way some here seem to feel is "the one true way"; it may lead to a raft of hard feelings and a power struggle that benefits no one. In plain language...it might not be as easy and it is certainly not as fast as some here would like, but working within a troop is almost always better than going "head to head" with an existing power structure...Being "right" and having to leave a troop your son doesn't really want to leave because all of the old guard "dislikes your insides" seems somewhat of a pyric (sp?) victory. nuff said Anarchist (and to give credit where it is "do"- FScouter, I did notice the modifier "(apparently)" in your earlier post...good for you! heck, I might win you over yet!....(or not.) ;>)

spinnaker, ScoutNut has the right Idea...If needed point out to the old CC that the faster he signs the faster you can find a replacement (one of those newbies). A question...how big is your troop? what is the percentage of parnets supporting their kids? I might be time to ask each family to sign up one parent as a committee member or ASM!!!?!!! By the way you could gently point out to the COR('cause the COR is obvisously wanting to follow the book), that the CC resigned and that it is the CO's (and by extention the COR's) job to recruit the next CC (just for laughs, that is) good luck anarchist

dan as I said it was the first part of a teaching tool, the last two lines and the ones most of you know are: A- Alert EMS B- Breathing? C- CPR D- (blank again) S- Spinal Injury and finally what you are used to: A- Airway-(open) B- Breathing (rescue) C- Compressions (circulation) D- Defibrillation S- Shock management makes a nice 5X5 visual on a powerpoint teaching screen for a near total assessment of the situation...thought it was kinda neat when I was first shown it...probably someone out there could come up with a memory tool that filled in the blanks but I never saw a need it worked for me when they taught it to me.... and as most of these folks know the "ABCD" was not the jist of the original post only a part...and I was "dancing" with FScouter...its fun and informative. anarchist

GernBlansten and taamland, G2SS (Guide to Safe Scouting) under "Youth Protection and Adult Leadership" says (see section ****) "Leadership Requirements for Trips and Outings Two-deep leadership: Two registered adult leaders, or one registered adult and a parent of a participating Scout, one of whom must be at least 21 years of age or older, are required for all trips or outings. ********************************************* There are a few instances, such as patrol activities, when no adult leadership is required. ********************************************** Coed overnight activities require male and female adult leaders, both of whom must be 21 years of age or older, and one of whom must be a registered member of the BSA. During transportation to and from planned Scout outings, now that said...keep in mind adults are usually terrified at this prospect and there are transport issues...like scouts can't drive other scouts...etc. So you may have to work into this slowly...say the first time on a family property (large back "40") or a friends wooded lot...After working out a really good plan, you sit down with the SPL and the SM and work through the details and the potential problems...If you are getting static it helps to be totally prepared with the best plan you can write up and after a couple of "easy", well done activities it gets easier for adults to loosen the reins a bit... You might even consider inviting two adults who would camp "way the heck away" from your camp a few times just to give them a level of confidence and the knowledge that while they are "forbidden" to come to your camp...if you really needed them they are "available"...just an "ice breaker" suggestion, if you know what I mean.... It also helps if the Scouts asking to do this type of camp are highly active in the troop's outdoor program and have demonstrated through hard work and experience that they can handle such an activity..After all, if you were a Scoutmaster would you 'approve' a 13 or 14 year old boy going out in the woods who has never shown you he can be "counted on" in the woods on a campout? I wish you every success it is a great thing you want to do! An excellant patrol identity building tool and a bunch of fun! Anarchist

FScouter... again way out in left field..... just for the record (in short form)it's now:"ABCDS" not "ABCD" A- Always B- Be C- Calm D- During S- Situation a step further it's: A- Assess the Scene B-Barrier Use C- Circulation D- (no term for this letter) S- Serious Bleeding It continues (as a teaching tool) as a visual 5x5 "block" and I won't waste more time on this unless others here want to see it...so, no I won't have to give up my position...I earned it...with CPR, Wilderness First Aid, Defibrillation training...etc... What I tried to say in my long post was the boys perspective of what went on may not be comeplete...or correct...and that several views should be considered...and as I have said before...we (in these forums) need to be careful about giving out "black and white" answers to subjective (very subjective here-no first party "witness")"situations". IMHO we are better served by saying something as simple as -"well gosh, sounds kinda harsh, on the boards part, maybe you ought to have coffee with the CC, the SM (and others?) to discuss the things the boy needs to work on...or what they felt the problems were" every problem does not have to be a confrontation...and we (here) seem to see every issue as a nail and the "book" is the hammer we drive it home with....I wonder how many kids have gotten "pulled" from programs they could have thrived in because we adults just had to go head to head over "pride" or some silly rule??? (and BTW- as a "rescue knot" all boys should learn to tie "it" around their own waist as well as the waist (seat or upper chest) of a "victim") IF THE SCOUTS ARE TRULY PREPARED THEY SHOULD NOT HAVE MUCH OF A PROBLEM with BoRs...is that so hard a concept to understand...or do we all just say "read the book - get the rank patch"...is THAT what you are saying? FScouter? (calm down-just showing you the "mis-understanding door" can swing both ways). Anarchist

gosh, in reading my post....so many errors...sorry for not proofing...only excuse is I was in a hurry...halfway through my typing our neighbor called needing help...his son bagged real nice 8 point buck and need help dressing it out... again sorry. Anarchist

"I find it difficult to hold a boy accountable for retaining something he never is given an opportunity to use." two problems with this statement- "never given"? do we want a program where we must "give" the boys everything? Just a question... then the sentence point...which seems to be they never HAVE the opportunity to practice something...thats programs problem. We use knots at every camp... the dining fly, clothes line, hand wash station, flag pole and camp gadgets, bear bags. We tie down our canoes for travel with rope on water trips...why would have no opportunity...to practice, go figure... no offence here...but it seems a "cop-out" to me. Last camp I was the first in camp so I started setting the adult tarp...in drives a parent with his son asking to help...not a problem- I had young scout (second class) a line and take the pole in hand..."young scout, put a taunt-line on that end" scout replies..."I'm not very good with knots," after a few half hearted attempts he wants to give me back the line..."nope, just take the end and....", still we are not making much happen...Dad "Chimes" in "Son, let (the old guy) do it", old guy laughs and says "nope, got no where to go in a hurry anyway, so lets trot this horse around the ring 'til we get it right"... twelve taunt-lines later he "had it"...and after dad went home he came back and thanked me for making him learn a knot...and asked for a sign off! If we want them to learn we present the opportunity to practice frequently...it is really not rocket science on eather side of this particular matter... but I do stand by my point, if the scout is truly prepared he should have very few BoR problems. And if he is going for a BoR in any of the first class to eagle ranks he should KNOW his stuff cold...just the way I see it Anarchist Anarchist

joeleeper, sorry this will be long and 'dry' Not to start a fire storm here, but your troop committee needs to sit everyone down (who will be sitting boards, anyway) and teach them what a BoR is about and drill it home that it is not a re-test! That said, Monday night I sat a BoR for first class that ran 45 minutes! We always start asking the boys to recite the law oath and outdoor code...which this boy did poorly... but 35 of those minutes were consumed by silence and yawns (the candidates'). The board asked questions and got nothing back, almost all answers were I don't "remember", or single words...example -question; "in learning lashes you tried several different lashes, how many different lashes did you use for your camp gadget?" answer: one.............................................yawn" BoR "Which one?" Answer; "square"........................ BoR "what was your gadget?" Answer; "tripod"............. BoR "what did you use the gadget for?" Answer; "...I forget"........... change tack.... BoR "we see you had to learn about first aid for first class, what did you find interesting?" Answer; "I don't know..................." BoR; "well, you learned about heart attacks, why is that important?" Answer; "yawn,.........umm, well for first aid and stuff...........yawn." BoR; "what are some reasons thats it's important for you to know how to identify a heart attack?" Answer;"..............................................yawn" CC (somewhat laughingly); "are we keeping you awake?" Answer; "no........I, forgot your question...." It was truely 'breath-taking'... in the amount of "pulling" the board tried to do to get a conversation going, we even double-checked to see if a SM conference had been done....(due to a work committment the prior week, the SM was unavailable, and an ASM did the Conference...). We asked the boy to "go find" the SM and return. All four BoR members agreed without any hesitation that something was "wrong"....the boy was not prepared for the BoR (more?). The Board gave a long list (to the boy), almost every question we had asked so he could "prepare" for next week... including taking a nap (in a light hearted way) The SM was allowed to conference with the boy (damage control? -additional instruction) but was asked to return to the BoR for a chat... We were surprised to hear that the boy when sent to find the SM answered "how did it go?" with; "fine - no problems". We also asked him to reconference with the boy (and to also be prepared for a discussion the following night at the Troop committee meeting). Meanwhile, the boys father was downstairs having a real problem with the "rejection". He left before the meeting was over, taking his two boys and did not show (he is a new committee member this year) the following night for the meeting. I go into to this to 'show' that in this case the boy was "clueless" as to why it went badly...he thought there was "no problem"...while the board thought he was the least prepared 1st class candidate we had ever seen....His father seemed to feel we were being unfair but I don't know why (as yet). When his father has time to digest this it will be interesting to hear what he heard from his son... I am not saying your son is not being truthful...but there are "sides" here, at least two of them , if not three or four. And what perspective we have on what was asked varies...some times a single question becomes ten... In our case we did give a date but we also requested the SM conference with the boy...and we will "postpone" until he feels the boy is ready. Tuesday night was a real pip...,we all seemed to agree the "yawns" were an attempt to cover a case of the nerves, The ASM who did the SM conference admitted the boy was marginal but was 'feeling' pushed by the young mans dad (to get him through before the younger brother asked for his Board)...ASM had to pry each answer and use leading questions...but hoped the boy would "get through". BTW-younger brother is a new scout, really into scouting and burning through the requirements while "our" candidate is in this third year, participates only when dad goes along or 'makes' him...ahhh, the webs we weave..... So SM is "retraining" ASMs so we get no more "maybies", Committee is trying to figure how we can get through these without being psychologists and family counselors and..... we still have a scout to "get ready", who probably really doesn't want to be advancing (or in scouts?) I am not sure what the 'total' answer is but advancing and unprepared boy was not "it". STORM TIME: The easy answer (for your son and all scouts) is to be truly prepared for the Board. I know we are not to retest...but, if every boy was ready to be retested I wonder if there would be any problems? As most of you know I am one of the forum members who feel "if a boy is to learn a bowline for first class them he should at least remeber it long enough to pass the board", further, I feel scouting is cumulative, ergo; an Eagle candidate should know his first class skills, they are not learned to be forgotten...thats for school lessons. just my ramblins Anarchist

Gosh, rules need not be tough length -not to exceed total length of the kit (7 inches?) height off track- (practically it has to be able to run... be the same as the official kit block of wood, weight....5 oz (not to exceed) preshaped vs orginal block if it is no more than shape???...who cares wheels and axles must be from the BSA official race kit...period. no custom wheels or prepolished axles...bearings etc. We adopt basic "rules in the box" which are our district rules... so our participants can go to district races.... been part of 12 of these now, and I can not remember a totally preformed car ever winning...some with added fenders and decorative parts but never a straight out of the box car...(lots of "dad work" but not preformed) We insist on the BSA wheels and axles...and have only disqualified two cars in 12 years for 'super wheels'...most problems have to do with over-weight cars or cars too "low" to run on the track... Keep it simple and fun...we have several heats (flights) and an elimination heat (with prizes)also, so the boys get lots of racing ( makes loosing easier) and interestingly enough,some of the real fancy cars (ie "dad cars") don't "hold up" (wheels usually fall off) to the continuous racing and its a gas to see a "blob on wheels" beat the "super dad" car...and it almost always happens.... round here anyways... good racing and good luck Anarchist

SR540Beaver, I wonder if using a GPS is like using four wheel drive...you just manage to get stuck in rougher places.... Really, while I love playing with my GPS-a great pedometer...(BTW, there is a great protractor -$6-7.00, for converting as well as a plotter 'bout $53.00 for the seriously "ill"), I would never hit the woods without my two compasses, watch...and a map (if I was in real "unknown" territory....do I really want to trust the energizer bunnie ??? don't think so.... We have used it to plot river courses and campsite locations for future river runners and we always do this with two different model GPS's to be sure we are within a reasonable range...sometimes there is a significant difference (usually due to number of satelite "hits" at the time...). And truthfully I just always worry that the little gremlins running around inside the darn thing may just have it out for me on a given day.... anarchist

Charter organization agreement and COR training are consistent...the CO must provide one COR for all units chartered by the CO, Cubs, Boy Scouts, venture, seascouts...no matter how many of what type...only one COR per CO....serves all of the CO's units. sorry Anarchist PS you can have partner CO's but they have to agree on a COR (who/which appoints)

acco40, Pack packing meal...meal you would eat on a backpacking trip???? Oh gosh, I just cooked and ate my backpack and the zippers were really hard to tenderize!...don't ask about the frame...(I guess there is something to say for internal frames after all....) :>) anarchist

mom162, First and formost good luck! Having gone through an extremely similar situation (but with space use not diet as issue) I would like to offer some practical advice. First you need to have a lang number of the Committee and SM/ASM corp in "your" corner. Then you need to find out a very critical piece of information: what is the actual (real) control structure of you CO. This is extemely important! You may find that the "IH" is not really the power in the CO. Example: in or case after being seriously impacted by a financial-space decision made by the IH...(both the IH put his foot down and the COR...basically said the troop would leave over his dead body...not a good sign! However, during a major set of meetings with church members we found that the real power in the CO (church) was the church board of trustees NOT the "IH" (who was really sort of a CEO serving at the pleasure of the Board). Our CC and SM (our whole committee in the wings)requested a meeting and sat down with the board after finding out the real power structure.And this was after nearly six months of getting very little (no) real help from the IH. After giving "it" the old 'college try- a true attempt at "making" a bad situation work, and having several church board members visit our meetings to witness the impact of the new space "restrictions"... we were able to find a new CO, leave the CO of 19 years on respectful terms that allowed for the transfer of the troop number, equipment and bank account. But the CC and SM worked really hard at keeping things professional, honest and most of all respectful and even acknowleging being very grateful for the past assistance the church had given us (a room for 19 years but really nothing else). The tact we took was the space use decision "they" had taken affected the health and future growth of the troop. What we found was sore feelings on the church boards part (not at us, but at their own IH who had assured them the troop would not be affected) These feelings were actually lessened when they were reassured that we were not moving "out of anger or spite", but to keep the troop together and growing. It just may be possible to get in front of the real power and speak your piece...and hit a home run. While the COR may be aware of the BSA-CO relationship, I have been surprised by the number of COs who did not understand the gear and bank account let alone troop number actually belonged to them. If handled well you have better than a 50-50 chance of walking away with all you need. But keep it as friendly as possible. YiS Anarchist

Eamonn. try: http://www.sailingservices.com/running_rig/splicing/3strnd_back_spl.htm or http://www.neropes.com/default.asp most rope manufacturers will have a web site with some info also... there is also a neat little tool called a Fid (i think it was...modern version of a splincing spike (tool) good luck Anarchist

F Scouter...the Requirement does not say you can use a week long camp in a cabin...You have showed nothing from BSA besides your interpritation that denotes a cabin camp acceptance...it says you can use a week long camp... and I still think it excludes "pitching the tent" tent not avoiding a tent... this is an outdoor organization...Yes? (or ) NO? What purpose would be served encouraging the use of cabins...? Particularly in a merit badge aimed at showing camping experience...can you really look in the mirror and say cabin camping is camping outside (with a straight fase that is?) The "inculsion" of "extended camps" can/may encourage summercamp camping ...in tents.. and even then, note it limits that use to a week! So they are not trying too hard to "encourage" summercamp in this Merit Badge...try again? Question ...is there a scout (boy scouts)camp in the country that has a summer cabin camp (not just cabins for winter use) but a long term summer camp 'cabin' operation? anyone? anarchist

Whoa FScouter...cite a BSA source that proves Ed is wrong... I think hands down it is your interpretation that is wrong...and the majority of the posters here are right... first, it is a camping merit badge...not the log cabin lodge merit badge... then; the requirement starts..."Show experience in camping by doing the following: Camp...at least 20 daysand nights under the starts or in a tent you have pitched"... and the modifier (long-term camp excluded) is adjacent to "pitched" and not adjacent to tent. IMHO if they were excusing tenting for long term camp the requirement would/should read inpart {...sleep under the sky or in a tent (long term camp excluded) that you have pitched...} 'course I could be wrong too... we could discuss whether cabin camping is "camping" or just roughing it a little more than we do at home...but this is about a camping merit badge, in an organization that professes the desire to foster out-of-doors experiences that are "vital" (BSAs word -not mine) to the program. as they say in the mid west ..."show me" Anarchist (This message has been edited by anarchist)

chicken - egg, egg-chicken??? ummm, how can a boy "do" a requirement that does not exist? Not to pick nits here, but the requirement seems to say that the boy "will do" the requirement, not "will have done" (in the past so to speak). Seems to indicate to me anyway that: 1) if the boy has not achieved 2nd class by Jan first he has to "do this requirement" not has to have done it in the past...and If he has passed second class before 1/1/06 he is "grandfathered" for six months (towards finishing first class without having to "do"...the requirement... once again BSA could straighten this out with a few quick lines but..no....frustration abounds.. Anarchist

Kahuna, Discipline...are we talking storm troopers stomping on active boys? I see nothing in the opening post that allows any real suggestions...remember the best position for a SM is the "standing back hands holding a cup of coffee and watching..." Scouter659 gave no concrete examples of the "slide" or the insubordination going on so what "may" youthful exuberence (appearing to many of us old geezers as chaos) may be a slide in discipline to scouter659...we don't know, do we? Yes there are times that the Adults may have to step in but we have no "bill of particulars" to address in this thread and it would help as far as giving advice to know what constitutes "insubordination" and lack of discipline. The only time I have heard the word used in our troop was when (years ago) a committee member tried to influence a patrol election (purely, in his mind anyway, for the good of the troop) by "guiding" the nomination process (suggesting qualifications that were not endorsed by the PLC guidelines )and was asked by the outgoing PL to leave the patrol room because "thats not the way we do it here", IMO the boy might have been a touch inpolitic maybe even a tiny bit rude...but he was "correct" and his action was confirmed by the PLC and the troop committee (cost us a troop member and scouter-pride is a terrible thing sometimes), anyhow, my long winded point is unless you have examples why feed the unknown fire? two cents worth anarchist

eagle90, The "professional recruiter" is a good idea. For many years now our troop has "sweet talked" three scouters, usually fairly new to the troop to act as coordinators with their son's old packs...In our case this works particularly well as we seem to get more than our fair share of Webelos II leaders and Cubmasters following their sons to our "gang". These men have lasting ties to their old packs. Their job is to set up pack visitations for a patrol from our troop to go say "howdy" and do demos and then to coordinate Web II visits and activity observations. BTW we would rather have Webs visit the troop meetings in small groups of two and three. In this way we do not have to alter our program, we simply insert the Webs into our NSPs and let them follow that patrol through its patrol activities that night. Parentsa get to watch and nothing is staged...having 8 or more boys and parents can simply crush a meeting. For years now we have combined a service project campout where we help "close down" a church outreach summercamp by doing clean up, taking down wall tents and huts, painting metal work, etc., with a "camp along" for any webelos dens who would like to participate. The web dens are invited to set camp in the next campers village (or just do day visits)and see some of what we do. If they camp, (and the campground lets them do it for no cost on this occaision), they are in a separate site with their parents and leaders but close by our troop and Web IIs get to interact all weekend with our guys...some where in there we usually find time to teach a few knots and feed them a meal... The coordinators are literally "worth their weight" in keeping problems like those faced by ciderscouts unit from happening...Is it perfect? Nope, but it sure beats the heck out of waiting until late October to try to insert your unit into an active schedule. of course we are assumming that the boy scouts are NOT sitting around playing "texas hold em"... ;>) Anarchist

Darn it, stop for a second! Why is everyone so ready to Jump on this poor SM...or "go over his head" to the commissioner... He is following proceedure...the Patrol Leaders Council (PLC) has a program to run. In all likelihood they have meetings and training planned for weeks if not months in advance. The PLC should be advised that a whole den and parents and leader(s) want to decend on their meeting so they can decide which meetings can handle disruptions better than others. One Webelo and parents, even two are fairly easy to handle...six eight, ten Webelos, plus parents, plus leaders can swamp the best planned meeting. or maybe you think the Boy Scouts just sit around playing texas hold 'em? They might have skills classes or klondike derby station competitions to train for... or even a district camporee to plan and arrange (like our boys are presently doing) Is it too much to ask to allow them the courtesy planning when is best for their schedule... Currently our troop has been asked by the District to plan and run both the winter camporee (klondike) and the District Webelos I camporee we call Woodsmoke...it is quite and honor but a lot of work for our scouts (not adults but scouts) to do. Can't you give the troop the benefit of the doubt?... as to visiting troop outdoor activities...its hard to know what they might be doing or even where they might be going... Example: our next outing is three hours from home, the one following that is the Klondike where we will busier than fleas at a dog show, then we have a ski trip in another state and that is followed a "lock-in" at a local sports complex...not much for Webelos to visit...until the lock in and that is questionable. KoreaScouter nails it...WEBELOS leader should be up close and personal with the troop in September or earlier. Our troop actively recruits from three local packs. Next week we start pack visitations aimed at the Webelos I (not II)dens, station demonstrations and gear touchy feely stuff. Last month we had a campout in a local setting dedicated to teaching scout skills (five rotating stations) to Webelos II dens from the different packs. They got to tour an active scout camp setting, see cooks getting ready for dinner etc. Parent got to "see and ask" and drink hot coffee...In September we had a semi-local camp that was dedicated to flat water canoeing and small boat sailing so visiting webelos could have watched but little else participation wise... October we also took part in a district camporee with cubs doing a day visits...but all this takes plenty of advance planning and if the Pack and troop are not coordinated "just dropping in" is a hit or miss proposition...and not necessarily the troops fault... It might be that you should plan on, at least on boys who "miss" the group visit, trying to do a solo visit or visit other troops...and why is that awkward? They don't have to know anyone in the troops they visit, in fact when we started stretching out to other packs we "reeled in" several boys who knew absolutely no one in the troop... but they told their parents that the older boys in our troop made them feel welcome and not like dweebs! We hand out contact phone numbers and locations for the three other "local" troops to our Webelos visitors so the Webelos can shop around...Why do we do this? Competition is good and we do well enough, but finding the right troop for the boy in question is more important. We would rather help match a boy with the program and boys he feels best with than just "win" the competition. Also having three or four strong troops in the area (which is growing rapidly)is far healthier and more fun than being the single "power" troop in an area with weak or struggling troops nearby. for goodness sake give them a break and a chance. anarchist ciderscout, you know your options,(knew them before you posted) so use them if needed but don't "see" hostility or deception where it is not really present...try to keep some perspective...there are two programs operating here... the scouts and the webelos and if there is "blame", seems to me there is plenty for the den leader to share. He certainly knew the requirements for AoL, I assume...(This message has been edited by anarchist)