anarchist

Wiseskier, from the responces...I am getting somewhat concerned ...does your troop have a yearly planning calendar? (you know, the troops outdoor ativities ...from like "now" until August?) Those "activities"( campouts treks etc.), should be the rough theme for most of you meetings. Having boys work on merit badges during meetings kill any continuity in your ablity move the meeting along... Quickly review the "contruction" of a good meeting (CNYScouters "7 parts"), sit down and IN WRITING list what YOU (as SPL) need to get done in each of the meeting "parts". Alot time accordingly. You will quickly see that having scouts working all night on merit badges while you try to help the rest of the troop move forward is going to be conterproductive in most cases. Get together with your PLC and map out the rest of you yearly activities...then in the program sections of each meeting "fit" what you need to accomplish into your weekly meeting structure... Work from a agenda, always! If you have a plan, it makes handling the "unknowns" that do happen ...easier... I'll repeat .."M.B.s" should not be done in Troop meeting- Keeping in mind that merit badges were specifically incorporated into the BSA program to encourage boys to try new things -on their own, i.e.,(boy decides on MB, requests blue card from scout master, gets name of MB councelors and makes phone call...note here; it is the scout, not the SM or SPL doing the deciding and/calling calling)...the M.B. work should usually be done outside of the meeting time so as not to slow down the rest of the troop in working towards the next troop (or patrol) Activity. If some of the requirements "are in common" with your troop needs, great! But it is hard enough getting the group to stay on task without adding in the fact that some boys are not "participating" because they are "working" on merit badges. If you can not find agenda forms PM an email address to me and I'll ship you some formats our SPL uses... finally...while it is probably too late the OA and a WEBELOS visit should not have been scheduled together...the OA election can/will eat up a bunch of time...something easy for the Web IIs would be to have Knot races... (and they might do it better than the boy scouts (if the Web II leader is sharp). set tables with five (or more ropes pieces) each scout or patrol then trys (either against a clock or in a head to head race with other scouts/patrols) to tie five knots (square, clove hitch, bowline, sheet bend, two half hitches, and taunt line) for extra credit toss in a sheep shank, rolling hitch, timber hitch, etc...(whatever turns you on) Prizes of candy or cup cakes will go over big with the Webs (and many of the older Boy Scouts)and If you are smart the cubs will get the cup cakes anyway.... two cents here anarchist

Kaji, have you tried the local thrift shops? Goodwill, salvation army stores? Many times you can find absolutely great buys. My wife loves yard sales...I have a who garage corner full of bargains... I have three shirts, paid full price for the first, $2.00 for the short sleeve and $1.00 for a nice old fashion cotton BSA shirt (but she makes me iron the darn thing!). Pants- BDUs at the surplus store for $20.00 at a yard sale for $3.00 and BSA "designer dress pants" (ugh) $5.00! mess kits- 50 cents! (have five of the darn things) this spring start checking the sales...now-hit the thrift shops! Seek and ye shall find! good luck Anarchist

Wiseslier, First a big round applause for wanting to do something...great to have a desire to improve meetings... but leave the M.B.s where they belong in the program...something for each boy to explore as he find need and interest. I am assuming you have little or no formal youth leader training (Y/N?) There are a host of resourses the troop (SM)and/or CO could help you obtain. The SPL handbook is a great place to start. The next place to apply yourself and get ideas for meetings is pull out your troop activity calendar. One great way to fill meetings with purpose is to pick the next two or three outings and generate ideas on what boys need to know or be able to do to be successful. example: many troops have frost-bite campouts in February and early March...so what do the boys need to know? "everything about cold weather camping"...what and how to pack, cold weather first aid techniques, meal planning for the cold as well as cooking in the cold weather, snow shelters?, wind breaks?, wilderness survival strategies, sleep systems, water management (how not to have to thaw your drinking water)...and so much more. Each of these "topics" can furnish a meeting class (or two) and each can be made into a game or patrol competition...just a little thought and imagination (if you please). What ever is on your Troop schedule should be supported by training the boys for the event (and planned to death). In this process you can teach pioneering skills to train for shelter building and give your scouts multiple opportunities for 'picking up' advancement skills. Spend time at the local pool for swim training and water rescue...for a canoe or white water rafting trip, and you can offer your boys creative contests and games designed to help them learn the scout skills they need to succeed. I was simply amazed, years ago when I watched two older scouts carry two hefty spars off the back of a pick up truck and proceed to "teach" timber hitches by having a "hitch and drag" relay race between three groups of younger boys...The young scouts had fun racing...and probably didn't even know they were "learning" (hitches and teamwork) until it was "too late"... ANY "scout skill" your guys need can be turned into a game, contest or race. Most skill-oriented rank requirement (sign offs) can be incorporated into a meeting filling -class and game... sit down with the scout master and if necessary go on line to BSAs web site and check out their manuals and training aids. Then discuss with him what you think sounds helpful. Don't expect to build rome in a day...we all know it took two weekend campouts. good luck and come back to chat...often. Anarchist

uz2bnowl, the 'vote stuff' is over-rated...most troop committees chew on problems until their teeth fall out and everyone is worn down...in otherwords by concensus...the votes are usually just a formality for the record. Have fun...do what you want to do. I found scouting nervana(sp?) taking SM and committee training, becoming the troop resident trailer puller/equipment/gear head and being the most requested BoR committee member in the troop.(which was the reason I wanted to be a Committee Member-weird huh?) Now in our troop we are multiply blessed. Many of the Committee Members are just as active on campouts as the ASMs many of us are "cross trained". Committee Members however, "know our place" and only get involved in "program stuff" when asked by the SM- and we have a very good notion (training)of where the "line" is. I have more campouts on my "coup stick" than any Dad in the troop... SM included so I get my outdoor "fix", too! I stay away from my kids...One (the Eagle) just Aged out and is doing his thing in college..."divorce" your kid is right on the point! Let them grow...heck if you need to "mother hen" someone (sorry lady scouters) "adopt" a boy to mentor, whose dad is clueless about the joys of watching boys have fun in the woods (or too busy, or AWOL)! Then there is still cub scouts... one of my best friends in scouting, chose to remain a den leader...(His son is now 22). It is his "place" in the scouting world and I know no one better at the job. (He was my Eagle son's den leader). When he "crosses a den over", he turns around and takes a new den of Wolves (he doesn't 'do" tigers) and starts over...A large portion of each group of his boys earn all their Webelos activity pins and almost all earn AoL...his retention rate is wonderful. Life is short, do what you do best...it is easier to love scouting doing what you love in the first place...Review Sempers list...its great...then GO FOR IT! Anarchist

Trevorum, I don't know if we should congatulate you or offer condolences...your next year is going to be real interesting (been there and done that). Such an influx of new scouts really kicked our troop in the pants. WE doubled troop size over night. It was very hard on the adult leaders and the older scouts. It was hard on the budget and it led to if not earth shaking then certainly troop shaking changes. Some questions...do you have a bunch of good troop guides ready willing and able? Do you have a bunch of ASM (also ready willing and able?) You are going to need to pull in as many of the new scout parents as you can...give them applications and get them to training. Impress on them that BSA is not baby sitters of America...(the only good thing I can say about that recruitment year is we picked up a butt load of parent leaders (nearly swept the packden leadership out of three packs). Personally speaking,large patrols are BAD (and not in the good way0. The supersizes patrols are harder to control, harder to keep interested in "lessons" and IMHO harder to instill the patrol spirit...(we tried super sized patrols last year and the guys -all of them- could not name the members of their patrol...they formed two or three "gangs" within the patrols, some boys couldn't even remember who their patrol leaders were...result no unit cohesion...no patrol spirit. If at all possible I would go with three "eights" particularly if you use the troop guide system...Most Scouts even older life or Eagle scouts will have a tougher time with 12 'hyper-wall-bangers' than with 8. I believe that the smaller patrols will also allow you to have more 'controled' fun...with troop competitions and troop challenges...with three NSP you can "pit" the NSP's against each other rather than have them strive against older scout patrols. Patrol activities, hikes and campout (etc.) are easier on parents and the Guides in smaller numbers... Within the patrols, (allowing for group dynamics)- three patrols will give the boys more chances at rotating patrol leader positions, on camps you don't have to put 5 boys in the kitchen at a time to give them a chance at cooking patrol meals... controling rank sign offs (quality control) is better...on and on... Much as I trust SemperParatus' instincts and knowledge, this time I think he missed the mark...a twelve "pack" is great for beer...bad for patrols...unless there are no better options...(been there, done that and bought the Tee Shirt) Best of luck anarchist

I am alway partial to smoked oysters and a nice warm mulled red wine...whoophs! were talking about keeping warm on a scout trip...scratch that... try adding a bit more "fat" (butter, oil, etc to dinner and then munching a few handfuls of cashews (with "le voyageurs" cocoa and butter) makes a nice snack (hour or so before sack time)...same goes for a PB&J sandwich...I'd watch the strong tea though...adding caffine constricts capilaries making hands and feet colder, keeps some people awake and most teas are mild to fairly strong diuretics...bladder issues anyone? And many souls have no stomach for eating glops of solid baking "grease" even when camoflaged within a ball of jerky, sugar, nuts or what ever...even though the original Voyageurs ate it by the ton, made soup and even bread from it and never (reportedly) got tired of the stuff...to begin with start with the stuff you know you like and can "handle" ...by the way- as le voyageur notes: cream of wheat, oatmeal and a few other Canadian hot cereals when "loaded" with butter, honey or brown/ maple sugar) and lots of warm milk make a great, filling and fairly healthy hot "drink"... which can keep the home fires stoked all night... thinking about this now I've gotta go find my cork screw...cheers anarchist

folks, how do you folks see an added requirement in the drug program issue? The BSA requirement says school, community or troop program...sounds like they have a "troop program" working here...so I think Acco, molscouter and beavah are "spot on"... and offer much better advice...I keep hearing the "off with their heads" refrain in the background... or is it the SMs seeming desire to see/or motivate better/higher work from the boy that is "conflicting" so many posters...? I can't help but continually wonder at folks who seem (anyway) to want the dumbed down version of everything fed to their children ...so they don't have to strive...or sweat for a single minute and wonder as well at folks who continually brand every SM who does something a parent doesn't like, understand or agree with an "ANTI BSA TWIT"... Personally, I want my kids challenged...Perhaps the reason oldest made eagle and stayed with the program through 18 was it was a challenge and varied and exciting...and not the same old same old... If the requirement says "learn a knot and teach the knot and demonstrate the knot"...I guess we should sign off if they don't complete the knot? or complete the requirements? Just go through it as "best they can"...gets them the sign off? What should the standard be? Again, roses to Acco, molscouter and beavah...and maybe a bunch of golden rod to the seeming "lynch mob".(?) "...and who shall judge the judges?" anarchist

le voyager, et al.... Unfortunately charcoal and zip ztove type burners do not present the "simple solution" either...many parks(places on the 'AT' and Boundary Waters come to mind) now prohibit fires (and subsequent disposal of embers and coals) of any type and in written rules require stoves. Not to mention the bulk and weight of carrying wood (many camps/parks do not want or "allow" you to even scavenge downed wood) then there is the issue of carrying dads charcoal grill and 20 pounds of charcoal for a weekend back packing trek... In the end we have a bunch of "options"...some better than others, but none perfect...sort of like scouting, huh?!? As leaders we need to try to follow the G2SS as well as any local rules as best we can.. Some times it will require a reworking of the "plan", but that I will leave to the trekkers to decide...but todays trekkers do need to be aware that "showing up" at a wilderness (or other) camping area thinking they will simply gather some wood and light a fire each night may not be an option (at least a legal one). was fun... white gas and MSR rules! anarchist

OldEagle4Life, By the book?...scouts may have to eat cold beans... Given that in many areas wood fires are now prohibited and that probably includes charcoal... stoves are the only alternative....most adult leaders lean to propain or butane (or a blend) as a supposed "safety" measure. One I do not necessarily buy into... More realistically we need to train them to appreciate the dangers of liquid gas...it's nasty ability to go "poof" in a loud and possibly disasterous manner -down to the chance of a frost-bite like burn in the event of a winter-time spill on bare skin... I watched a demo once that staged a "controled" (practiced)explosion and a 'spill' on a coat sleeve resulting in a rather dramatic flaming arm (on a 'dummy')...it made a lasting impression, at least on the college student I used to be... I have heard of as many 'canister' accidents as white gas problems...so mostly it is training, maturity and more training...Perhaps you limit patrols to charcoal or alcohol stoves at first and after a few supervised camps with gas stoves you move on...to more responcibility... Liquid fuel (gasoline) is never to be used as a 'fire starter'...and actually just 'splashed on'... its not the best anyway. There are better firestarters out there...and if a camp fire is permitted...they can cook over fire or coals...so the problem doesn't exist in that case... If the Scoutmaster is confident in his trust of the boy's training and maturity, their "going out" for a "patrol only" camp is his call. but I am not sure it meets G2SS...guess we could argue what actually is "adult supervision" (or what "is" means?)...but I have things to do...now where is that belly button lint picker... Anarchist

summertime! summertime! sum, sum, summertime! The bulk of our troop will be "doing time" at Blue Ridge Scout reservation, with about 75% doing the mountain man camp and 25% doing the water thing at Claytor, we will also have a crew going to Seabase (Out-Island Adventure) and a crew doing a week-long 110 mile James River canoe trek... the more "out" in scouting programs the better! anarchist

SMT224, think bamboo sled plans will be few, at least in this county...you might try some asian sites... Without knowing where you are my advice is guarded...having recently 'finished' our district Klondike in the MUD, I am hesitant to say "lash up a sled"...while a great idea on the face- (I love lashing projects)...if you are having (as we do)a typical snowless Klondike, the tourque and drag on the sled will probably do a real number on the lashes- requiring many "pit stops" for "repairs". So, if this will hurt your competitive chances or the 'spirit' of your sled crew, I would consider a traditional sled (or one of 'welded" pastic pipe.... I watched several seemingly well-built sleds 'come apart' under the load of their gear and the forces of "mud suction" and boy "jerking"...wheels or runners or even skis didn't seem to make a difference...even saw some tears...So be guided as much by the team "working" the sled as the handicaps you 'build' into it... This is supposed to be fun! So if lashing makes it more fun go for it...if on the other hand, it will add to the frustration level...reconsider...give the guys the facts and let them run... snowless klondiker Anarchist

gwd-scouter, now we are getting somewhere... As kenk notes; G2SS does not prohibit liquid fuel stoves...in fact a quick "look see" at most of the BSA literature shows pictures of small white gas stoves for backpacking (example-see page 253 of The Boy Scout Handbook...its a "naked"-ie. minus reflector and windscreen, MSR whisperlight). Many districts are so "scared" they try to pre-empt units from doing anything that increases risk...and many units "buy into it"...but the real task for us is (and again kenk is "spot on") -training the boys and practice, practice and more training... and then supervision by unit leaders (adults). Many outfitting stores (REI for instance) have set up areas to demonstrate not only how to use these stoves but to allow you to compare stoves before you buy. Check with local stores first... Which stove actually "cooks your goose" in many cases is a matter of personal taste...for ten or twelve boys you should be able to do ok with two stoves to start...ideally as you go along one stove for two boys is about perfect. Cooking is then done by tentmates (buddies) rather than by patrols ...before the boo bears start up - cooking for six boys on a small stove is difficult for most scouts and leads to using pots too big for these stoves which may lead to a tipped pot at best or an over-heated stove/fuel bottle at the worst (bad). Face it these stoves are not built to heat a 6/8/10 litre pasta pot... As a practical matter, whatever stoves you decide upon...buy the same kind...it makes keeping repair kits and spare parts simpler and if necessary it allows for canibalizing one stove to keep another working! I would read the reviews on the various internet sites and packpacker magazines and try to get a few demonstrations before making a final decision. I would be willing to bet however, that for pure value and ease of use you will end up seriously looking at the MSR whisperlite (international) or one of its cousins. Be careful whichever way you go... not all white gas fuel bottles are compatable with other companies' stoves. BTW-The hobo/cat food can/pepsi can/ alcohol stoves are fun to build and warm water on...but not to do serious cooking...check out the older threads here for a thread on soda/pepsi can/cat stoves for more info. One last plug...using separate, reusable white gas fuel bottles allows you to spread the fuel "weight" out among all of your backpackers. It also allows the stoves to be separated and stored inside the pack-protected from damage while the fuel bottles (not canisters- "canister" usually refers to a prepackaged 'single use' container -such as the one pound (heavy) propane mini tanks)...can be placed in large zip-locks then into nylon bags and lashed to the outside of your packs...or stuffed into a outside pocket on your pack...well away from clothing, food and water. On some stoves, (coleman feather-lites for instance) the fuel tanks are part of the stove and unless you drain the stoves after each use they are packed with fuel and are more liable to leak...if damaged or if the valve get 'accidentally' opened. Hope this helps. anarchist

Eaglescout316, Yeah, what EagleinKY said...you are looking for a covered or enclosed utility trailer...emblems come from a sign making company....Unless you have a bunch of trucks in the troop try to keep it as small as possible...even thinking that two small ones can be dragged along by two cars but a bigg'n may need a pickup truck...all tow vehicles need a hitch/receiver and light hookups.... You may even be able to find a used one..a little paint and polish can save bunches of bucks...You might even be able to talk a local "club" like the elks or mosse or VFW into donating one...its been done! Give serious thought to keeping it secure after you get it..Lots of "bad guys" out there wanting to drive away with other peoples trailers...locks chains, anchors, lights, fence...there can be no parking a SCOUT trailer on a public street in front of your house if you are not willing to see it vandalized, broken into or stolen...find a good secure place well lit with a fence if possible to park and lock it doen! good luck Anarchist

gwd-scouter, like the economist says..."well on one hand..." what type of fuel do you want to use? How serious is the need for a backpacker stove...is it going to be used once a year? Is it going to be heavily used? Is cost or weight a factor...? do you want to us it in sub freezing weather...going overseas with it...on and on and on... you could choose a simple "canister" stove that used propane, butane or a mixture. These stoves are usually fairly small to tiny... but you have to contend with the fuel canisters and their disposal (LNT). Some fuels don't do well in really cold temps, some stoves don't stay lit in hard wind, some stoves boil water in 20 minutes some in 4 minutes, some can be repaired in the field some can not...cooking for one or two or four or five? With some more info - we can offer better suggestions...Personally, I don't think the average treker could go wrong with any of four or five stoves by Optimus and/or MSR. Price range $60.00-$150.00. I am a white gas/multifuel advocate - so keeping it simple I might go with the MSR whisperlight international...I have one and it is a nice stove. I also have an MSR dragonfire that I love...but it sounds like a jet taking off. I then have a thirty plus year old Optimus expedition stove that burns everything from jet fuel to unleaded gas and kero...but a similar stove today would cost $150-$200.00. I also have a single burner propane stove that is just fine for a scout on a five mile hike, but he has to lug a cylinder to camp and back...and it has stablity "issues" to deal with. let us know what you think you need! anarchist(This message has been edited by anarchist)

bizzybbb, some absolutley great information...the best is to get out of all your day clothing including your long johns...We just came back from a 24 degree camp with sustained wind of 25MPH and frequent gusts to 55mph. (Talking some good wind chill here!) the kids did great! only one that had a problem -an adult, who was in a great big, cabin tent, on a cot trying to sleep in his day clothes (cause "they were warm when he went to bed")... As part of our shakedown in March for new scouts we spend several nights on gear and preperation with both the scouts and their parents...Some of our shakedowns have had snow and rain on the same weekend! We do not allow them to participate unless they are "gear-ready"...buddy system rules, Senior patrol leader and the troop guides inspect packs for necessary items, and they are "charged" to see that each new scout "changes to dry" before climbing into bed. Seems to work. (we also hold camping seminars for the new scouts parents) Our adult leaders teach parents while the Scouts teach the new patrols...adults take longer to learn! Secret...dry bed-clothes and socks, good pad, good sleeping system (bag+ fleece liner), wool watch cap or neck gaiter pulled up over head and ears...and even light gloves...(I tend to stick an arm out during the night...darn hand gets cold)....has worked for me in a 20 degree bag down to a sustained 5 degrees. good luck on your next try! anarchist

Seabase is great! Out Island is... as both my sons said AWESOME...but is getting old for the leaders(we have sent at least one crew for 5 of the last 6 years) The yaks are not hard unless you have the misfortune of wind and tide working against you...the new War Canoes are wonderful and the boys seem to 'bond' more as a team...In the past we have seen some unit's adults need to be motored out to the Island but we have not had problems ourselves...If you can paddle into a wind on a lake for 7-10 miles you can handle the ocean (no sweat). The food has been great but I understand this year they are going to change to dehydrated...(?)(thank god I'm not going)..Check your dates and see if you are there during "lobster season" -catching your own to add to your meal is really great! So is the Shark fishing and the "Deep Sea" trip... If you have never snorkled, put in some time at the local indoor pool (if you have one getting used to it)...it takes some folks a while...and DO make a night dive on the reef if you have the opportunity. Most of the junk you take down ends up staying at Base...you only get a little dry bag for gear. Shoes...we have adopted...neoprene zip booties for the walk into the beach...the supply boats do not land and the grass and muck tends to suck off and "eat" water shoes and flip-flops...as you carry your water and food ashore... Have some stomach meds (pepto)-over the years the sulfer smell of the rotting sea grass has put a few of the guys off their feed for a day or so. Sunscreen, lip balm (lots) and some aloe for sunburn.... have an AWESOME TIME. and civies are the uniform for the day for Key West...totally correct.... some of the more flagrant folks there give scouts a hard time...just keep the boys out of the "clubs" and dives...if you can! anarchist

I am a big fan of going with the boys gut feeling...if he has one...its his Scouting career and he needs to feel good about it. Being fairly active in our troops on going Webelos "recruiting" program I agree with Semper...cubs should be recruited over time. While we have a traditional feeder Pack, (@100% of the boys crossing over join our troop) it is a small rural pack with a very weak program...(yes, we are working on it...) Several years ago we began working with two other packs with quite a bit of success. We start with seeding a few Den Chiefs into these packs. Then in the fall we do a pack visitation and set up a demonstration/activity of some sort, (this year it was a couple of "klondike" sleds and we let the different dens "race them to a "station" and "set up" a tarp -lines and tarp only -no poles... we then "rewarded" them with gold coins (chocolate candy). Later in the year we set a demostration camp at the webelos wood-smoke so they (rising bears and Webelos Is)can see us and visit a bit. We follow this by hosting a camp later in the webelos II "year" and invite the Web II dens to camp or at least visit for the day...During this campout the Boy Scouts run four or five stations (rotating the Webelos through) teaching scouting skills (fire-building, first aid, map & compass, cooking, team building "games/drills", camp set-up-tents and tarps etc.) Webelos dens who stay over act as their own patrols but the troop provides a group lunch for all. Parents during this "day program" are allowed to migrate around the stations, get fed and supplied with camp coffee, tea or cocoa. They are also introduced to troop adult leaders the patrol method, troop policies, our equipment trailer and good fellowship... Throughout the year we "communicate" with the packs as to our schedule and events to avoid conflicts and to allow them to plan visits to our regular meetings. The first two years we did this were very successful for our troop, but hurt two other troops in our area tremendously (and IMHO had at least some negative impact on our own program) ...so we sorta "toned" it down a few decibels... Now we sell "Boy Scouting" more than "Our troop" to Webelos families- on the belief that three strong troops are more important ( and healthy) than a super troop and two struggling programs...We actively encourage families to visit multiple troops, multiple times and follow their hearts...(gutz?) We still get plenty of boys (too many?) but hopefully not to the detriment of the other programs. If a dad (or mom) asks me what he should do when he wants to come our way but "Jr." wants to go elsewhere...the answer is easy...follow "Jr.s" lead...if it doesn't work...give us a call. hope it helps! Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all... Anarchist

me five and working with dial up its a real pain...

hey Prairie_Scouter, As a nature photog...what you do ...is Take pictures...not hunt...you are a visitor to nature: a voyeur if you will... In my world... hunting has to include the ability and the will to Kill. Kill...not harvest or "take" or even "cull" which are politically correct terms to avoid further inflaming the tree huggers and others who have more than a slight tendancy to look down their noses at hunters (as well as taking actions to take away our rights to hunt)... I hunt with shotguns, black powder weapons and rifles. I used to use a bow, until surgery screwed up my ability to "hold" the drawn arrow for extended periods. I would hunt with rocks if it was legal... I eat what I kill and use the hair for tying flys...(I fish, too!), the hides for leather and antlers, if any, for buttons, making 'rattlers' for my friends and yes sometimes barn decorations...no heads hung in my house as an accomodation to my 'bunny huggin' wife". what is the attraction? (not necessarily in any particular order) 1. being in the woods (and "in" nature)in a way where my mistakes and/or lack of skill, caution and stealth "mean" no deer (or bear, or squirrel or ducks, or ground hogs..or etc..) 2. being out of civilized culture even for a few hours...and a real part of a predatory world. 3. the thrill (yes, thrill) of scouting, Stalking - quietly approaching, taking aim and finally if everything is 'right'... killing my diner. 4. making some effort to connect with the (my)past...with the few drops of native american blood passed down through my mothers family, that still course through my veins. 5. connecting with the generations of Virginians who did hunt both for provision and for social sport - (getting together after harvests were "in" for the season)...people who walked and hunted the same land I hunt for hundreds of years. 6. demonstrating to myself that I can provide for "my own", and add abundance and healthy variety to my diner table... and to the experiences my children can have! 7. to sharpen my senses and skills 8. to take part in the cycle of life where what some Native Americans call the "small death", feeds the family and then life thereby continues (it is mystical and spiritual so many of the tree huggers wont get it). 9.To support wildlife management in my state (gun, ammo, archery sales taxes and license fees pay for game management efforts not general tax dollars- and so the nature photogs have a free ride ;>) 10. To teach my children and some of my neighbor's children a valuable skill set and a way to spend more quality time with each other and foster (I hope) their ability to appreciate life and nature. As to many of the 'examples' you cited...we all recognize them as "bait" and in most cases "evidence" of some moral failing ...at least according to some (your?) particular value set. Most of them would not fall into my world view of or as hunting but I would leave the judging to others more pure than I... though... I would like to know if you could kill a deer at 200 yards or an elk at 400? or a charging wild hog at thirty yards with a handgun? It might not be hunting but it is certainly good shooting! and finally to S_P, I am not aware of modern sportsmen having hunted any animal to near extinction? we are good but not that good...and to the best of my knowledge, in this county... no legally hunted animals have been hunted to extinction in the last two generations??? Do you have other information... most "near" extinctions come from poisons; (chemicals)required to keep feeding you city kids or loss of habitat due to population expansion and pollution not modern hunting and certainly not to the so called "sport" hunting. Interestingly most conservation efforts are funded by...(drum roll, please)'sportsmen' not city slickers and nature photogs... and the endangered species efforts funded by federal dollars are the results of harm caused almost exclusively by "progress" impacts not by sport hunting...just as the depletion of the oceans is being done by the factory ships feeding the "cities" and an ever increasing population...not by sport fishermen. To all of the "cello wrapped, meat eating" anti hunting folks out there -that say "MMMUUUMMM good!", when they chew into a good steak...The 'pleasure' we hunters "get" from killing game animals is a much more ethical and morally justifiable pleasure than that which you express when eating beef or pork which is over-medicated, over fed, supported by the pollution of our waterways and groundwater, produced by an industry which is "energy" (use-wise) inefficent and requires billions of tons of excess fertilizer to be used and food grains diverted from feeding people to fattening cows and pigs...Hows that for a morally 'laden' arguement? now, am I having a deer steak or roast beef for dinner tonight??? gotta go check the freezer. anarchist

ConnCM, "nix" on the cleaning...first unless you really know what you have to work with the "printing" copy on each ribbion may be 'cleaned' right off the ribbon. Leave what you can, in the "conservation trade"- old is old and new is BAD...unless the cords are no longer strong enough to secure the ribbons ...leave them on. you might want to "scan" each ribbon and make a 'show me' book scrap-book to display at pack functions...rather than having the boys/parents 'handle' each ribbon to see what is there. Finally, just 'cause something is old and faded is no reason to feel it is "ugly", rather say your "topper" is a classic, historic or just full of "character" and pride!. Best of luck...(our troop started in '51- some faded and all proud!) Anarchist

baden, hope your search goes well...a couple of years ago I was looking for the same thing...I found one company willing to sell plans for about $50.00. We even traveled to several outfitters and took measurement and photos of their gear... In the end the Troop committee decided they did not want the liability of having a strut break off and eight thousand dollars worth of canoes flying down the highway at 65 mph (looking for cars to hit)...so we cranked up the fund raising machine and raised the money for a bright red trailer...do wish it had a lockable paddle box though...we store paddles inside when not in use. good hunting Anarchist

firecrafter, sorry for the long post.... If things are as bad as appears in your posts... and the problem ASM can't be brought into the fold by diplomacy...it maybe time time to "fire" him (the ASM that is) plain and simple. Some questions: Who appoints your BoRs? Sounds kinda "Ad Hoc"...Suggestion: CC and SM (COR if necessary) should approve your Board members... What qualifications have you set for participation on a board? Comment: In our "gang", we have at least three trained, "rock solid" committee menbers..We then allow "newbies" and committee "trainees" to sit in and participate...sorta see how is is done... Then, if they go all "stupid" on us; (you know the "well, back in my day we....")the assigned members (3) all sign off on the BoR advancement form and there are no "problems" to speak of...(I mean, whoops...there are only three signature lines on the form). Do you have enough caring parents to pass over the offending CMs? Comment: may need to recruit and train more- we have plenty of Committee members (about 15 who are trained- though probably not house broken) specifically to avoid BoR issues...We have BoRs scheduled right in our monthly troop calendar for the first and third meeting nights each month and the CC sends email reminders ...for Adult planning purposes (to be sure that we have enough level headed folks to "man the boards"). We also as a general rule have enough committee members who are active enough that on most other meeting nights if the SM requests our time we can accomodate... (only hang up is meeting room availability-church is sometimes very busy). Do you have written troop BoR policies? Comments: I know many "here" will say we need no more rules than BSA gives us but it can really help explain the COs expectations for its troops and Scouters "direction" and actions...Per our policy, the BSA BoR guidelines and sample questions are printed and our BoR membership requirements (trained and active and usually not stupid) are set out for all Scout families to see. NO BoRs are held without the SM and CC's approval of the BoR makeup...one of our ASMs or "pushy parents" simply can't pull it off. Also helps that only the CC, SM and Advancement chair have "access" to Advancement forms. As to the mater of the CM-who is the MBC for Cit./World; First to play devils advocate (her side) since we were not there...just maybe she was "wavering" on signing him off for his MB... 'cause he wasn't handling the requirements as well as she wanted... lets say, requirement 3b or 7 and he really needed it (MB) for his SM conference and board...so maybe she wanted him to firm up his understanding with a report??? But then she agreed to sign him off... if he would enlighten himself and her a little more clearly with the "horror of horrors" offending report(?)...Just a "what if" here, but not unplausable and not really adding to the requirement since "tell" can be done in many cases, in writing...some MBCs prefer it actually... Further, since he was able to blow the report out to her immediately it seems it was hardly all that difficult a matter...we don't really know the specifics though, do we? We do know,however, that he "promised"...(perhaps, even under 'duress'(?))and did not keep it. That said...now back to the program...this is the SM's ball to "knock out of the park". He should be keeping a list of all District/Council approved MBCs that your guys are likely to use... When a boy expresses an interest or need for a few names the SM sits down and chats a bit (we do try to "guide" our boys to use MBCs who are "outside the troop" when possible). If you come up with a one of the "Twits of the World", a simple line through that name crosses them off your book...They don't 'mess' with your scouts again...SM, if he feels she was out of line after looking into it, should notify your "problem child" MBC that she won't be doing Cit./World for any of your guys in the future...It is just not that hard ( in most areas) to find a replacement (or "grow" one if needed). On your RGS (really good scout) ...I am bothered somewhat by the fact that some of the questions you have "issues" with(uniform wear, length of time to reach life and future rank time goals) are not "on the face of it" bad questions. In fact, I have to say, they are typical questions that can help get a handle on the scouts personal direction, involvement in his own improvement and even his ability to handle peer pressure. And the fact that they seem to cause you distress is somewhat disturbing. I wonder why? As far as your 'exclaimitory' excuse ie. "HELLO... he was really busy for the last year and a half"... I must wonder about what is not being said here...After all Star to Life is not that tough...at least over a year or a year and a half...busy or not...So is your reaction just a personal thing because you were angry or is there more? The scout needs to be counseled about how adults make as many mistakes sometimes as kids do...He also needs to be guided about handling disappointments, even stupidly unfair disappointments...It should be one of those "Teaching moments". Not being there to actually experence the atmosphere of the BoR... I wonder if such ill 'treatment' is the whole reason of his disaffection with scouting...could burn-out also be a factor? Again, "Teaching moment time" might be here. Good luck, hang in and work it out! It sounds like your core group of leaders are on the same page...you just need to show a few lost souls ("twits"?) the light or maybe the door. Anarchist

13% -and the compasionate conservatives in the "House" just cut more funds from the social safety net...just so in a few weeks they can pass a few more tax cuts so I can have a few more dollars next year ...and Dick Chaney's friends can have a few million more...sweet! Is it just me... or do we have our priorities screwed up? Anarchist

welcome Huntr, you might want to consider an "email meeting" with all of your parents...I ran dens in the dark ages and am still a ACM (though I have not had a boy in the pack for five years now) I always had a snack for the guys ( yes even webelos enjoyed)...we set up a parent rotation schedule where each family was responcible for a light snack and some fruit drink at each meeting...that parent became my "assistant" for the night (since they had to be there anyway). we allowed substitutions or "trades" as long as I was kept in the loop...I generally called the night before den meetings to "remind" (and to be prepared) I also always had a set of snacks in the truck-only used them maybe two times a year... chew on it a while, it might be something you can use...if we can give 1 hour a week surely families can give one hour every two months...don't cha think? remember, we can not save the world...though we try...we in the end must only do our best. best of luck anarchist

folks, This is the "wave" of the future for park use...Boundary Waters (US side) has had limits for more than ten years (number of people and number of canoes in each "group" and campers at each "campsite". AT has rules about where how and when to camp...these 'rules' are all designed to lessen the 'impact' on the area envrionment as well as the other users. So it goes with out saying; if you are using a city county state or national park, retreat, wildlife area, wilderness area or even a private farm you should contact (well in advance) the "authorities", explain your trek, including number of trekers , method of waste/trash disposal and itinerary... ask for written or email copy of park regulations... what was that saying I heard once a long while ago...oh, yes ..."Be Prepared", (sorry I couldn't help myself) Anarchist