anarchist

AnneinMpls, To start one "four" man...then two man, two man, two man...etc... later a second four man ....the four man tent is your fall back tent when you have an odd number...and even four small scouts generally fit well...Many units start small and build up...remember almost no event is 100% attended... so a nice goal is say 65-75% tentage...if you have twenty scouts- say 6-7 two man tents and one three man...have leaders provide their own until you are "on your feet"... Now for a temper tantrum...NO GEAR IN TENTS -NO shoes, NO packs and NO anything with edges -it all stays out- As to packs- build a pack frame or hang them on a rope-out side-then cover with a tarp or a large trash bag- but keep them out of your tents...only sleeping "gear" and clothes go in. Tents will last much longer...twin vestibules are nice ....tantrum over.... see the staying dry thread for some good information... Try to keep most of your tents two man...program wise they are more versatile- you can divide the parts (tent body to one scout poles and fly to the second) and they can "work" as "backpacking" tents...four man tents are burdensome to carry! Last...just a suggestion here...have you thought about approaching any organizations for assistance with gear? We found several benefactors...you might try local Moose or Elk Lodges, Lions Clubs, Church groups, VFW's American Legion Halls, business groups, large companies...on and on (only limited by your energy)...make contact, letters, phone calls...outline your program needs and ask for as much help as you can...Let them know the hard work your kids are doing STAYING OUT OF TROUBLE...and how they can help you continue to offer a better program with thrie support ...with equipment "gifts"...(not cash...some councils get real "touchy" if you ask for money- thats what they do after all and it might hurt their efforts)... good luck Anarchist(This message has been edited by anarchist)

Owl62, Number seven works the most...the best... consider folks...two scouts in a tent...each carries a 'ground cloth' made of 4-6mil plastic (builders fabric) and a small roll of duct tape. If you OVER-SIZE the ground cloths so they actually 'run' up the tent walls ...say, four inches each side (5X7 tent requires a 5'8"x7'8" ground cloth) the only way these boys get wet will be stupidity...er, laziness...er an accident? First, the boys set a cloth inside NOT under the tentfolding the sides up they use the duct tape to 'bind' the corners...making the proverbial 'tub'. pads, sleeping bags and clothes go inside (BACK PACKS NEVER DO)the second ground cloth become a "drip shield" if the tent or tent fly failes to keep out rain...condensation can be a problem but if they only cover what needs to be covered they will do alright... most tents do not need a ground cloth under them if you select/clean your site well.... and as to the "odd stick or rock"...after a week of doing it this way check your "inside" ground cloth...thats where you will find holes...from shoes, zippers, pocket knives, edges of mess kit handles etc...almost all holes come from the inside...very few from the outside...even sticks will not generally penetrate the nylon any more/faster than they penetrate the plastic...if they go through the plastic they are coming through the floor... another thought...for consideration...without an impervious layer to hold water... water that does get under the tent will more than likely go down through the ground rather than up into the tent... been out for five days in a row- in a Eureka Timberline when over four inches of rain fell in a day... only water got on my gear was through the zippers before I 'covered up"...try this system... you might like it... Anarchist

Eagle 90, Yes you can wash them and maybe even get the smell out...but how much pain and time are you willing to endure? the commercial washing machine might work if it has a gentle cycle...otherwise take your tents...one at a time and place in large rubber maid 44 gallon Brute trash can...fill half-full with water add cup of gentle detergent like woolite and aggitate (a new tiolet plunger with a mop handle works well)...about an hours worth of "churning" gently - empty and rinse two times with clear water...with gentle "churning" of about a half hour each....on second rinse add qtr. cup of bleach...to the water "churn" for only twenty minutes. empty water and add new clear water and a box of arm and hammer baking soda....churn well for half an hour and rinse well...dry completely... smell should be tolerable...and mildrew gone...however color may be changed somewhat and the waterproofing will have to be redone...you can use several of the newer "recoating" urethane products on the market (they usually require you to coat the Outside of the tent rather than the inside of the fabric as the manufacturer did originally. Recoat twice...This will also impact the color somewhat... We have three tents that are still servicible that we did this to several years ago before our troop got its feet back on the ground...but it is a lot of work...and still a risk...vs @ $150.00 per tent outlay...value judgement time.... on the "vomit' tent you might try soaking (with some "mixing"/churning time -canoe paddle?)for 24 hours in a can full of water with a couple of boxes of Arm & Hammer...cheap test...and if you are careful the water proofing may "hold" (I would reseal the seams though! I would check your equipment handling methodology...is your QM really checking the tents when they come back? Do you keep a "paper trail" of who used the tent last... When the boys and PARENTS understand that they have a responcibility to return the equipment in good and dry condition and that you have a "list" of the users of each tent at each event and which boys take them home for drying...(boy does that get a boy's attention...as well as a parent's- {and the troop's}...when you ask for the replacement of a damaged tent). be interested in hearing what you finally do.... Anarchist

Scouting for Food is very big in our council...last drive collected over 822,000 pounds of food thats over 411 TONS of food for areas food banks...the districts all participate and generally approach 65-70% participation (based on registered scout numbers)... generally speaking the food is "gathered" to a site selected by our District and after beinging weighed is sent to different food banks in the district. Most of the boys really get jazzed by helping others in such a visible (and heavy way). In recent years we have been coordinating with several cub packs where they distribute the bags in a mapped out neighborhood one Saturday and the troop (with some energetic Cubs) spends the next saturday collecting...Some units set "manned" (scouted?) baskets outside of grocery stores (with permission) for shoppers to pick up a few extra cans of food for donation...and really gather in a haul! If you are just starting the early years tend to be "light" but it builds as the community "learns". And remember...ADVERTIZE! ADVERTIZE! ADVERTIZE! Flyers, news stories, posters, door to door handouts with the bags!The public has got to know what you are doing for it to really work! BTW...as a local unit, we did a similar thing for "Katrina" but added a plea for cleaning supplies (bleach) and hand tools and gloves....we helped our church fill a tractor trailer with supplies...again the boys really liked to see what "they" could do! Good luck Anarchist

Dug... a swing and a miss! you missed the point completely...you must stay after and re read the whole composition for context and meaning.... anarchist

gwd-scouter, fire up your computer and surf the net...check out all the BSA camps withing driving distance of your unit...no rule says you have to go to your council camp. Fact is we have found that we are treated better (much better) when we go outside of council. We decided years ago that "camping around" kept the boys from getting bored...While we have some favorites we research and provide the boys with many options for their consideration(including Sea Base and Philmont). Interesting observation about pool vs lake...year in year out the percentage of scouts passing swim tests, life saving and life guard is always higher at the pool camps vs the lake camps... Just guessing here, but seems to be something to do with being able to see the bottom and/or the lack of "unseen" monsters...that give the boys a better chance of succeeding (less fear?) Most of the camps we frequent have large pools and lakes or river fronts. Dining halls, nice (hot/cold)showers and pit latrines (outhouses). A few offer the otion of cooking your own meals...all have wall tents on raised wood platforms. (we don't do cabins for summer camp) for the last four (maybe five) years we have chartered a bus...which the scouts and parents love. Generally we travel up to four to six hours (one way) to regular summer camp. On the bus trip home the scouts are given surveys to complete (by the SPL) These surveys "grade" the camp experience and also give a sense of what activities the scouts want the PLC to plan for the next scout year. Try to get your SPL/ASPL to do some "net research" about different council camp offerings...its good practice for trek planning anyway. good scouting Anarchist

gwd-scouter, The COR really needs to be (actually has to be) from the CO...not the troop. He is the voting member from the CO at Council...and needs the authority to "speak" for the church as well as for the troop...more importantly he is your 'inside' man (person?) with the CO. You need to cultivate that connection to address your troops needs with the church...as you said the IH is a busy person...and the COR is usually a more accessible person charged by the CO to coordinate scouting for the church. Over time, if the COR is from the church, you stand a better chance to gain more assistance and support if the COR is not a troop person...This is not to say the COR can't have a scout in the troop...he just needs to be "part of the church" from their point of view. (An Associate Pastor, Youth Program Director,church finance committee member or business committee member etc.) Get the PLs making those contact calls every week...it does help! Anarchist(This message has been edited by anarchist)

gwd-scouter, not to be a picker of nits but the Charter Organization Representative (COR) should be from the CO not necessarily "from" the troop... On the problem of attendance, today we have a lot of 'activities' available for our kids to do...(not to mention school work). The meetings, therefore, must be interesting and fun in order to have any chance of motivating scouts to come on nights where there are other "opportunities". Then (and some will really scream at this) the PL(s) should be calling each patrol member the night before the meeting to 'remind' his patrol of the meeting and if "johnnie" does not 'show' he should get a call from the PL(s) asking if 'everything is OK' and telling him what he missed... SPL should be 'encouraging' his PLs to do this "member retention" activity, at least weekly! The PLs need to have significant consequences for not doing their jobs...After a time it becomes second nature...and attendance will improve at least when the boys don't have anything "better" to do. After a few heart to hearts with the ASPL a "change" might be called for...only your SPL (and you)will know for sure on that call. Most controversial...if you plan "patrol only" campouts the "troop" or herd instinct will not be as pronounced....cause there are no other patrols to mingle with... On "troop" campouts, if there are no "program activities to keep them busy it is only natural for guys who like each other to "hang" with each other...That does not necessarily mean just "your" own patrol. The presence of a good program...scout activites that can be 'worked' as patrol units can help you with your "patrol/unit identity crisis". Say patrol compass races, pioneering projects for patrols, camp improvement plans, cooking contests, patrol area inspection contests, races stressing -first aid, team building, rope skills etc all... "by patrol" can help. As for the adults...phone trees and email trees can also help remind busy people that they are "needed"...chin up It is alway a new day in scouting...and that just means a new place to start again! Anarchist

Folks, Just to pipe in here... As a method; for the last five years our troop has taken the troop youth leadership corp and a few other scouts (Identified by the SM as potential leaders/interested scouts) for a weekend retreat. TOTALLY paid for by the troop. The troop has secured a campsite (usually cabins) and the scouts are treated to a weekend of leadership training with the adult leaders providing outrageously good camp meals, between "module" snacks and lots of "bug juice" to drink. They are "led" into lots of team building exercises and games...(after all they are the troop leadership team) and fed as much JLT and other leadership ideas as we can cram into a Friday evening/Saturday/Sunday. This "event"(for them) is a "low drag" campout where they feel (we hope) as "important" as we can make them feel...the adults 'serve' the boys (interesting idea for many adults?) As much as possible we try to instill the idea that the success of the troop is in their hands and they have the duty to do their best to take the information and techniques given to them back and let "it" work for the troop. PLC then tries to polish the techniques and reinforce the ideas. We use what is "given" by BSA and add whatever info we can find that helps us get "the job done"...many boys are repeats and we need to add things each year to help them over the "been there, done that, problem". A few years ago we even brought in a "professional employee trainer" from the restaurant industry (want fries with that) and the boys loved the "service" module he added that year...he specialized in motivating teens to work hard... and it seemed to charge up that years leaders.One year we brought in a trainer whoadded a conflict resolution module...too "adult"... "too boring" said the scouts.... so we 'returned' to the BSA material. Keep your "EYES" OPEN. Sometimes WE have to take the ball and run with it even if BSA stumbles...gripe all you want but pick up the pieces and get back to work! (

Good Gosh...what is so difficult about hanging a mosquito "bar" in a wall tent...takes five minutes, is smaller lighter and less expensive than bringing troop tents. Many (most?) camps here 'bouts use canvas or nylon wall tents on platforms and advise to bring netting ...its no big deal...privacy? at summercamp? (sounds boring!) lather up in deet and enjoy the mosquito song.....buzzz buzzz buzzz buzzz whine buzzz buzzz! anarchist

WE try to be multifacted and program for all ages of scouts. For many years now our troop has done a bunch (three per year)of camporees (car camps) and several drive in long distance (i.e., Gettysburg, Assateague Island National seashores type troop car camps but only one true multiday back pack trip. We also usually plan three or four canoe camps and one bike hike camp. Much of the program was driven by a group of older scouts (boy led remember) who simply didn't want to hike -so when the annual planning meeting came around- they (As active PLC members) didn't schedule backpack trips...hikes were ok...but being a pack mule wasn't high on their personal hit parade...Not bad guys or couch potatoes mind you;(5 eagles,who were mullti-sport H.S. atheletes-including two football players, several cross country runners, wrestlers, and many soccer players)...they just didn't like 'packin'... This year we have scheduled two backpack trips-one weekend and one four day A.T. trip(older boys only)...(this is being driven by two adult leaders and a more maliable(sp?)PLC)and I hope we do more next year. We are also "leading" the patrols to "double up" on their own outdoor programs so we have even more opportunities for "packin" to catch on! My personal preference?- canoe camping -hands down! Having only one lung...it simply allows me to have more fun camping. Anarchist

gwd-scouter good story! ALL- NETWORK- NETWORK- NETWORK (even when you don't know your doing it) As the Equipment Guy and QM mentor for our troop I am always looking for "toys" to make the "Game" more fun! It is funny how one thing leads to another...Whenever I can I let friends and neighbors know (without being a pest of course, that I work with the Scouts... The number of mess kits, lanterns, two burner coleman gas stoves, pots and pans, Dutch Ovens and old but still usable back packs that have been 'dropped off' with a comment like "ghee, found this stove at a yard sale for a buck...can you use it?", or "Gosh, my father has this old lantern...don't think it works but it looks brand new could the scouts use something like this" ...is unbelievable. over the last ten years I have help two other B.S.troops and a G.S. unit with a few of the the basics until they could buy better...just asking that they pass the gear along when they "upgrade". Most recently, a local civil engineer who had seen our troop's canoe trailer crusing through town many times on its way to and from outings, called and asked us if we would be interested in fixing up and old sail boat he had purchased "a few years ago" as a fixer upper...and just never seem to have "gotten around to it"...He figured (seeing the canoes all the time) that we liked to play in the water, so heck, we might be agreeable to moving a tarped eyesore from his back yard...as it turned out an old Pearson "hawk" 16 foot sailer...It WAS a bit rough, had a good size fracture in the (fibreglass) forward bilge area some rot here and there but it made a great "project boat"...gave some of the guys some boat repair work and one of our leaders turned out to be an pretty good sailor...we floated her last fall and while she still isn't pretty...she is a lot of fun to take on the lakes when we put the canoes out...looks like a mother duck and a bunch of red ducklings... point is- let people know you are out there...tell people what you do (gently now. Write up your own 'news' stories about your activities -for your local paper or neighborhood newsletter...even for the church bulletin...take every opportunity to get your scouts out in the public arena...doing good works (in uniform if possible). You do not have to beg...good people will discover ways to help... and never turn down anything...if you can not use a servicable item (have enough stoves?) take it; fix it up and offer it to a unit that can use it... or sell it at the troop yard sale and use the profit to buy tent pegs! Even rotted tents can be "gleaned" for poles, fittings and patch material. Some times we forget with all of our own personal 'challenges'...good things do happen and flowers bloom in the spring! Spread the good word Anarchist (was this too nice? feeling weird...oughta go take my meds)

CA_Scouter, easiest first almost all major retailers will extend a 5-10% "goodwill" discount to a scout troop...Dicks, REI, Campmor... now which stove to chose is more difficult...how are you going to use it...what does your troop use currently for car camping (what are you used to) what temps are they likely to be used in...where you may use them (way out in the boonies...overseas...just local jants? then are you planning to really cook or just boil water? are you planning on two or three boys per stove or four or more per stove? (many are designed for small cook sets (one to two litre pots (max) and get "tippie" when a big pot is placed on them (bad) or over heat...(really bad) with said big pot... my personal favorite is the MSR Dragon Fly -multi-fuel...It's a blow toarch with simmer control...handles bigger pots well...though I am looking at a new primus mulit fuel ...gotta love gear! toys toys toys give us some more info and stand back....It will all start to flow down hill.... anarchist Personal preference

OGE, (god I love this guy!) you are very very muchly right on on this subject! We are in process of correcting this issue right now... multifacted problems have complex solutions. The easiest is M.B. counselors...as a troop we encourage the use of "outside" counselors...from the district list. When we get feedback that one is a "zero" he is dropped from our copy of that list...and since the scout comes to the Sm for a list of counselors he is the gate keeper..we don't control district but we control our list... (IMHO merit badges at summer camp and merit badge days should be totally trashed or totally reworked...they are almost always (at best)- terrible jokes). Bad sign offs and poor Scoutmastering is another problem. With our recent crop of New scouts (and a new scoutmaster) As a committee we started seeing a "host" of poorly trained scouts...everything, it seemed, was put in short term memory...excuses were made for "learning" problems and eager troop guides (and NSP ASMs)-the SM, (nice guy...but relatively new to scouting) was taking scouts "word" that they had done the work...and actually running the SM conference like a one on one BoR. PoRs are tougher...we have the material that tells the boys what there jobs are but unless the SM is willing to act it is hard to correct...This year has been a tough one for us...new SM, Five Eagles ( super patrol) aging out and a new crop of young scouts (and parents) wanting to advance without effort. We have recently allowed the reorganization of patrols and an out of sequience election of new PLs due to a "creaping malaize" that was dragging the program down. The committee felt the PLC was ineffective and the SM (new guy) was not being as 'forcefully guiding' as he needed to be...Now part of this was due to his being (literally)- afraid of stepping on some 'dads' toes as he "instructed" the PLC in doing their jobs or even being 'present'...He let too many things slide...His patrol ASMs were way too 'hands off' and his SPL was practicing "deligate and forget"...allowing "failure" was an option...no matter what the cost. The committee had a major melt down and stopped BoRs until the program boys (and gals) "cleaned up" the act. First we called a committee meeting with the SM so he could rework his techniques and program. Then we had a meeting with all of the ASMs to be sure they understood the issues and the requirements of being a ASM. As a troop, we stopped allowing sign offs by mid level scouts...All sign offs had to be approved by the SPL or an ASM or delegated with the SMs approval. No more squiggley initals and illegible dates...full name and date of party signing off are now required...if it can't be read...it is not a sign off...by demanding a legible signature we have the ablity to stop "social advancements", the parties on both sides of the 'transaction' understand that there are consequences. WE have taken the terms "learn", "show" and "demonstrate" to heart- no more "first instance" skill sign offs...(i.e. for knots- teach, demonstrate, then students teach and then must demonstrate at two subsequent meetings or camps...)WE are not adding or subtracting...we are simply requiring that they learn the stuff and demonstrate they know the stuff...that they are professing to know. And in the end, OGE, "A Scout is Trustworthy"...the young men must accept the ownership of the truth (or the lie) of presenting themselves as worthy of the rank they are seeking...Our most difficult job may be in leading them to understand this... the job is never over...it starts anew each year... anarchist

funscout, well mom taught me to cook the basics...so I would let them sleep in on weekends...(Dad used to work the night shift)... But scouts is where it took off! Most of the guys liked to eat, most couldn't cook (at the start, anyway) so I got "elected" for that slot in the patrol duty roster...and why did I like it so much???(you ask) Well in out troop if you cooked, you got a pass on other chores...especially dish washing...which I still do not relish... It (cooking) served me extremely well in college, where I discovered women liked a guy who could cook almost as much as the guys with money...heck I do most of the cooking at home...wife loves it! It carries on today...our troop (scouts and adults) cooks up a storm...we have enough "iron" to ballast a small ship and our older scouts even compete in a "scoutmaster challenge" cooking contest each year... anarchist

sunsetandshadow, Find a new CO- staying with your "current cub CO" ...as you form a new troop is asking for more pain than it is worth. Second, what you are starting is not a troop...it is the local chapter of Baby Sitters of America...Parents don't want to be involved and you don't want the kids to suffer...Get real, grow up and save yourself a lot of burn out...Starting a troop is hard work! Starting a troop with your "proverbial hands tied behind your back" is just plain stupid! If the families want a Scouting program, they must make minimal commitments!Serving on the committee is pretty minimal. You mention sports is big in the area...how many of these families would make the extra effort if Junior was a football or baseball "star"...yes I know ...that would be different...I mean going the extra MILE for a sport is, like, TOTALLY different, man... (yes I know I'm sugar coating 'it', but I am the shy, retiring type) Isn't there a church, or Lions Club, Elk or Moose Lodge, FOP, Fire Hall, Ruritans, Grange heck even a Chamber of Commerce you can approach? The old guy who is wanting to ruin...er, I mean run your show is just way too much trouble to mess with...(face it Scouting has changed since 1492 er,.. 1945 er,...1980...even) And next, the CO should not be "banging" you up-side the check book to register their members as troop MCs (members of the committee)...They should pay their own way if they want to run the show. FIND a New CO for the Troop...say thanks but no thanks... with some luck you might be able to find a better meeting location...so more folks can join...or come to meetings...regularly. "tag along sibs"...find a way to "untag" them...maybe share or rotate child/sibling sitting duties...Boy Scouts need "away time"...time to be Boy Scouts and work on boy scout "stuff" without 4,5,6 or more sibs hanging around, and/or taking time from the program. Some kind of sitter-service trade would open up car seats to help scouts get to meeings, too. Maybe it (child care) will be a planning nightmare but scouting in a daycare setting just can't be easy. The sounds of this "birth of a troop" has many of the same "notes" as a train wreck...(I know, there I go sugar coating things again). Pour a cup of coffee with the other parents and do some rethinking and soul searching there has got to be a better way. good luck anarchist

sunsetandshadow, not meaning to rain on your parade but the "reason" for the fund-raiser you are thinking about planning has some "issues". The first is you are raising funds for what is personal property...boys clothing...not a scouting activity or even troop equipment. I can see some folks having dificulty with the concept...Then I am not sure BSA will sign off on such a purpose...Your scouts would not be able to honestly say "it was for scouting"...for the scouts yes but for their personal use... I will be interested to see others take on this. "Uniform cost" is a false argument for all but a handful of units...while there are some comunities (gulf coast strikes me as a prime example) that have wide-spred money issues, if you look at the situation in many cases its just plain 'B.S." (no offense for those out there who are having money 'issues'). It is money the parents/scouts are chosing not to spend....a value judgement not an economics issue. Having come from a family with an alcoholic father, no extra money and having to pay for my own uniform and gear... I can "talk the talk and walk the walk"(etc). Boys can do odd jobs to raise money for their gear. Two large bags of crushed cans now brings $10.00 from the "junk" folks...collecting cans can buy a pair of pants in one or two months...They can ask for help from family members at birthday and Christmas time. $36-$38 for pants is not alot of money in this day of $135.00 sneakers and $399.00 game systems (that are out of date four years later). Many of the families not wanting to spend the money for pants think nothing of buying $55.00 skate board pants or other pricy "urban wear". Last year my sons travel soccer team "charged" each family for a new uniform, socks etc- $230 not including shoes... and this has been a near constant every other year for eight years! $100 for a uniform that lasts 6 or more years seems like a value to me... As to the shorts vs. long pant battle...if the boys are going to grow out of the uniform it will be in the waist line...BSA puts about six or seven inches of 'extra' pant leg on those pants...you just let out the hem a couple of inches each year...(thats not to say I like the pants...they are poorly designed for out door play...but thats a fight for another day). Finally if dollars really are the issue...there are alternatives...ebay, salvation army thrift stores, yard sales, family contacts, other troops...and yes even this web site...several of us have sent our son's out grown "extra" uniforms to help other units. I am a firm believer in the uniform... I think it helps the boys see themselves as a distinctly different "group"...but I tend to agree it is "all or nothing"...A troop adopting just a scout shirt and jeans does not build a sense of "unit" or "belonging" ...just going half way seems to be the message. talk it out with the parents and good luck anarchist

God Bless you! Man do you have a bunch of hard work ahead of you! First, meet with all the scouts to see what they need program wise to restart them and get them addending more. Then with the SPL sit down and put together an outdoor program for the rest of the year...Keep in mind the program has to be targeted to get and keep the interest of the group...As SM you will need to get to know these young men and find out what "buttons" need pushing to engage them and win them back to scouting. Try to find a few activities for the comming months that will blow their socks off! I would follow (if you are infact gonna be the ne SM) with a parents meeting ...with 13 or fourteen dads (and moms?) you should really ask...(beg/demand) them to step up to the plate and dig in...You are not running a Baby Sitters of America branch. Show them the plan for the rest of the year (Summer camp?) And tell them you are going to need their help...like starting now! All the while I would really put a full court press on the "good" ASM and mostly on his young Eagle...(as in... "its time to start giving back!)to get them to stay for a year to help things settle out. In your "spare time" start contacting (recruiting) the Webelos dens in the area...It helps if some of the scouts in your group were past members of the pack but it isn't truely necessary. Volunteer your troop to help with some of their activities (District Webelos Woodsmoke?). Offer to do demos invite them for a camp visit...sell! If you can reignite the fire in the old scouts the new scouts will come along for the campout (so to speak). It will take everyone to make this work, throw another log on the fire and perk up some more coffee.... good luck Anarchist

lynncc, not to be a picker of nits...but you have made a common mistake in the recall of the "ditty" to I.D. corals should be: Red on yellow, dangerous fellow" "Red on black, friend to Jack" "Red on yellow, kill a fellow" "Red on black, venom lack" please review your source material...such a poem could get a boy bit....('course,... with some kids it might be...well no, I guess we need to tell them correctly) for further ID...all corals start with black nose.... best of all just don't mess with them...sort of like Texas (huh?) guess I'll just shed and run... Anarchist

EagleinKy, Hah! our guys eat tarp lines and tent stakes as appetizers...but they take pretty good care of the tents...and since we started keeping a running record of who is issued each tent- on every campout (in is kept in the QM "clip board" with the trailer) things have gotten pretty good... 'course the 'boo birds' are gonna get mad when they read that our SPL and PLC have set up a "negative outcome program" for boys who lose troop gear...but then a little extra work never hurt anyone and boy it sure seems to be working. gotta run and buy some more tarp line...its almost supper time! Anarchist

Sir_Scoutalot,(and eagle90) guess it depends on what you what the information to "do". first we have (all) 'identical' troop tents -either 2 man or 4 man Timberline XT's by Eureka. Each tent, rain fly, bag, pole bag, and pin bag is marked with the troop number an then a designation 2-1, 2-2 or 4-1, 4-2. These numbers tell the QM first; it is a two man or four man tent the second number is the sequence number of the tent. For instance, in our troop we have 21 two man tents so the second number in the sequence ranges from 1-21. The quarter master has a computer based inventory that tells when each tent was purchased and any significant repairs that might have been done. Actually every piece of gear we own is numbered, lanterns, distribution trees, kitchens, kitchen rain flys folding tables, pots and pans, dutch ovens, stoves, just so we can keep tabs... Old tents are canabalized for any good parts which are kept for field repairs...flys, poles, 'knuckles', bags etc. We also purchased a few spare poles (etc) for such contingencies... The numbers on the bags comes in handy when a bag of poles or 'pins' suddenly turns up when we are "policing" our camp site before pull out or is 'found in someones garage or basement after a 'wet' campout...We can easily identify which tent will be missing something "next time". The formal inventory is simply invaluable for planning and for accounting for equipment after a camp. The inventory is down loaded to the adults (CC, SM and adults mentoring the QM) from time to time for updating purposes and when the QM changes he gives his paper work and a floppy or CD/DVD to the new QM...smooth transition. (eagle90) and Scoutalot QM issues tents to pairs and we keep tabs (written check out form) on who has checked out which tent...next month when tent "4-5" gets checked out and the boys return to the trailer five minutes later saying they only have two tent pegs (pins) the QM can quickly tell which two scouts had the tent on the last camp out...he and the spl can then have a "chat" with the two or three scouts who 'left' eight pins behind last time...(the chat usually involves some extra troop "service time") Same holds true for tents returned muddy or wet...seems to work. hope it helps anarchist(This message has been edited by anarchist)

Discussion of coral snakes seemed appropriate since they were mentioned-lots of scouts go to Seabase etc.. Coral snakes (two "kinds in the US-Eastern and western- red and yellow kill a fellow!) are native to the southern United States (south East N.C. to Mississippi, Florida keys and then to the deserts or Arizona...etc., as ManassasEagle notes not native to Virginia nor seemingly to West-by-god-Virginia. And as an informational point Manassas Eagle; the cotton mouth/water moccasin is only native to the far southeastern portion of Virginia (Dismal Swamp area and somewhat south west) though lots of poor norther and southern brown watersnakes get killed "as" water moccasins by our fellow northern Virginians. slithering along anarchist

to all webelos parents and especially Den Leaders: As many of us have said and "vmpost" high-lights again if the 'game' is fun, if the lesson is interesting scouts will do the work (and not burn out). My eldest son Webelos leader was a gem of a guy (still is actually). He had the boy set their goal on the activity pins for AOL. Thats what they usually "worked" on in den meetings...But, this guy was willing to go the extra mile...he challenged the boys to earn the others 'on their own time" and he set aside a weekend or two each month where the webelos who were interested could gather in his garage and work on "extra" activities. Interestingly, there was no trophy, no extra effort certificate...just the challenge of doing something few others could or would do...Luckily, there were plenty of supportive dads and moms so he had help. Five of the six boys earned all twenty...Burn out?...Didn't see it. One of the six webelo's family moved away just after crossover,one boy left after first class -because of "school grades/family/girl"issues... one boy was a multi-sport (4) high school athelete and dropped scouting after earning the Life rank, three boys aged out- after earning Eagles. Not a bad record...burn out is rarely due to the challenge...it is almost always due to the challenge not being fun anymore. two cents... Anarchist

Lexington76, ...Confused as to what the term "inside" tries to convey? First, Whose left and whose right? In Us Flag code the U.S. Flag is always on it's (own) right... in church that would be the congregations left... the "multiple flags" help confuse the issue particularly from an asethics point of view... If you only have two sides the church flag would go to the congregations right and the US to the left (Pastor/Rev./ Priest's right hand side. so if the end result was that you had the unit flags to the right of the US flag in more or less "equal" prominence the display was incorrect. (see poor diagram below) (wrong) crew: cub: BS: US ]STAIRS[ Lutheran Flag (correct-but lop-sided) US: crew: cub: BS ]STAIRS[ lutheran flag If they are in a line the US is on the outside "right" side. But that is going to look strange...four flags on one side one flag on the other...assumine you do not wish to divide/separate the unit flags you could post them behind the US flag...with the US flag centered... (again a poor diagram) crew: Cub: BS ]STAIRS[ US Lutheran flag I am sure with enough brain power someone here might have a better idea... anarchist

high all, First- Kaji...good to see and old OCCOQUAN scout on the forum (Woodbridge Va ca 1963-66) both Beavah and Calico have great info...(CDC approved stuff) most recent studies are at best dubious- that any usefull amount of toxin can be evacuated with the current civilian suction devices...are doubtfull...washing/letting it bleed a bit are safe and at least neutral if not somewhat beneficial. mild imobiization (splinting), shock management, (trying to keep victim calm is the real trick) and heart level 'elevation' are appropriate. light clean bandage is appropriate from a wound management perspective ...a swig of wiskey, cutting a "X's"nd sucking out poison, tying off the old blood flow - all the old cowboy garbage are not helpful or safe...even coffee or tea are not to be given- water to drink is ok ...easy does it though.. Depending on your situation, You may even let a victom self-evacuate... if you can keep the heart rate down..(slow and easy)..but transport by others is recommended. "In hospital"-Each bite is actually treated (in many circumstances) differently -once the victim is at the hospital... the snake discription is taken and the wound assessed- sometimes antivenin (real name of 'antivenom')is not used...at least right away ...due to being developed in equine serum many folks have a bad reaction to the antivenin...so a pause make occur while they try to determine how much of a problem they have or don't have. Some snakes (for various reasons) do not inject, or do not inject a full "pay load". And many in the medical community will attempt to determine if there is gonna be a raging reaction or just a mild one..or even no serious outcome. (Heck, it seems that some have less potent venom -either genetically or environmentally driven). Coral snakes may call for pressure bandaging by Ace bandages or crepe gauze but the number of coral snakes biting people in the U.S. is statistically insignificant...many more people suffer more life threatening injuries taking a bath than from coral snakes...seems they do not have the best 'delivery' system for envenomization...and it is true of all snake bites combined in the U.S.- bee strings kill more people... good luck and watch the timber rattlers..though I think they are all in the den playing cards this time of year. good chatting anarchist