anarchist

grinning he says.... Even though my employer (private sector) is very supportive of the Scouting pictures, ribbons, unit service awards etc.on my walls (where I do not hang any professional detritus...)And even though he is one of those guys who will give me, quite literally, any Friday "off"... if I need to support a Troop activity, I doubt he would be as understanding of me going about office chores with our clients while in uniform...(coat and tie environment) That said... The uniform has saved me countless dollars on Sundays throughout the years (much more than the terrible cost of buying the darn things)... When we have been called upon to do ceremonies or presentations at church (Scout Sunday, Charter Presentation Sunday, Veterans Day Sunday etc.) After services I always ask the guys if they want to go to Brunch...in uniform...After Webelos the answer was always a resounding NO! Peer pressure is a terrible thing...but it saved me money! And yes I am way past uniform embarrassment...heck I dress up as "Santa" every year...my young men know I'd wear anything to get a rise out of someone.... grins Anarchist

just a small comment here...as I pass through... Hunt, While I am not a patent attorney nor do I play one on TV, trade marks/ property control are very enforceable and BSA' are pretty tight... get ready... FScouter is very correct here (gosh, that didn't hurt as much as I thought it would)as to their ownership (and the Federal Charter reinforces the ownership). Product copy right is very tricky...just because you by a "Coke" does not license you to use the trade mark and if you think because they do not make you sign a form...I suggest you try using the Brand Name or one of their logos and see how fast a bunch of New York lawyers tie your shorts in a knot! still smilin' Anarchist

ddhanso, behaivior modification...not discipline... If the offence is against order rather than safety you need to establish a record of trying before you get too heavy with parents...(' hate to say it but sometimes they are the part of the problem) First, you need to have the SPL take the whole group (patrol?) aside and explain what behaviors are not acceptable in your troop meetings/activities...perhaps even working on a behavior contract...Your troop guide also needs to be involved - closely. As a Webelos leader one of the most interesting experiments I ever took part in was the group dynamic of letting the boys set in writing the behavior rules for their meetings...it worked much better than I ever expected it to...perhaps the SPLand Guide will lead them into a patrol behavior compact!?! reinforce with an adult... simply put- strategic placement of an ASM is all it takes sometimes, (a stern look, a shake of the head...even a soft word in the ear...labor intensive but it generally works well. And your NSP does have a "full-time" ASM, right? Failing those avenues ... then hold a meeting with the parents...explaining the issues... because in the end three scouts quiting is too high a price to pay for a wayward or "challenged" scout...after all they (the 3 scouts)have "rights" also. It maybe that you will have to resort to requiring a parent to be present at every meeting/event if the behavior is truly that disruptive ...but work on it first and let the other families know your are working on it...do not leave them in the dark either. good luck Anarchist

Its Me.... Man o man... "As for me..." thats what this is all about...isn't it... These folks are not overselling BSA...they just believe in the program...and as you should be able to tell expend a tremendous amount of time and energy "investing" in their units. No, It's Me, scouting is not the "be all - end all"... there are other valuable and fun things for boys to do...(but them most of them are boring for dads too aren't they)...unless you simply live life through your sons activities... As to teaching the same thing every year...(I hear the buzzer sounding)- wrong...each year we are supposed to build on the prior ranks lessons, review and expand...all the while looking for resources and methods to make each ativity fun and exciting...for our particular group of scouts ...not easy, but do-able...unless you need it handed out on a silver platter... Please, take some time off. I won't even say to recharge your batteries. in a few years look back in on you son..maybe he, just magically, will metamorph into a leader as well as a good scout. I have no doubt you have many great talents...perhaps Scouting just isn't one...no shame..just not what you "do". The world needs all kinds...go have fun investing elsewhere...No one will hold you to a contract...volunteers are just that...we are not employees we don't have to stay...And life is way too short to be doing something you do not believe in... Heck, one day the kiddo might come in all excited and 'stoke' your fires again...don't lose any sleep over it...just don't expect lots of fellow "program bad-mouthers" here...even when we dissagree (generally, that's all the time), we still believe in the program. good luck Anarchist

alpineer, scoutldr, of course, is correct-(smart guy for an old F_ _t)... don't let them do the PLC's work but what we do with "excess parents" (we call them scouters), is have them start a lot of the basic research via internet etc., and give the info to the PLC for weeding out and selection and determination...Particularly, with younger troops or patrols it helps to lay out reasonalble choices (with a few "flyers") so they can learn to focus on the "big" stuff... And The SPL idea does work... we "lost" our "adult play pen" (room) for a while and the "coffee Klatchers" would do a lot of "chatting" in the back of the meeting room - making for too much "Background noise"...a few "scouts signs up" by the SPL where they realized "THEY" were the "noise problem" worked wonders...now, we again have a play pen for adults ...so much better ...again. Your second post does not mention having or not having an extra room? Not? if not, perhaps an Entrance hall to your meeting room?...have the boys line it with chairs? anarchist

If you have another room available put them there...give 'em chairs and a pot of coffee suggest someone rotate cookies or cake and give them little jobs like long range planning, summer camp research, trek possiblity research, and BoRs...(you can have them just to check in with the boys...not necessarily for rank advancement...as in "getting to know boys" and progress checks. You can also use the excess adults with your younger scouts during patrol time to work one on one for skills training when you need your older scouts for planning (etc.) Anarchist

Wow, such a case of "too much work, not fun, I wanna go home!" Do I hear violins in the background??? Gonna bust your chops here Its Me. Drop out its a free country, but do you have to force your son out 'cause you do not have time to wait till he grows into the "fun" stuff? If you would have followed the rules and had a parent for each webelos on your campout maybe you would have felt better (but I doubt it)... Investment, Investment? Since when are our kids an investment? Good god, enough already with the "chest beating-search for meaning"...if you want someone else to do the work say so...and quit. Let someone else become the Baby Sitters of America representative. If your negative feelings are bleeding out its probably getting through to your son anyway...step back let him breathe too. Your attitude is more common than you think. Lots of Dads find little enjoyment in their younger childrens development process...its to boring. They chomp at the bit for the kids to grow up enough to be "fun" and buster I'll tell you; when those years arrive - they fly by so damn fast it'll make your hair gray (or fall out)and then they are gone. I would say try to Learn to love every day of your sons development...but it would probably be a waste of breath. No sympathy here...if its not for you...fly away...hopefully you will not "poison the well" for your son. Maybe the next Webelos II leader will let the boys start operating like a patrol and rotate the patrol leadership positions so your son and others can work on leadership...cause it sounds like you have missed the point...(darn I sound brutal tonight..oh well you sound like you need it)... If it scouting works for your boy, he can make life long friends, learn about character building and pick up a few skills to boot. I just spent a week with five guys I scouted and bummed around with in the sixties...we fished some, golfed some(at least they golfed - I don't agree with shooting poor little golfs), partied some and cooked alot...imagine- six old men in a waterfront beach/golf/fishing resort town -who only ate one meal in a restaurant in a whole week 'cause we all learned to love cooking in the scouts. Do what is best for your son...if that is dropping out, so be it...but somehow I'll bet that making him drop out will not be what's best... for either of you. good luck (and I mean that) Anarchist

flscoutmomw3, Old thread, new reader...what a resource! sounds like they need a lesson in planning (or lots of lessons) Boy led does not mean boys left alone...we are expected to teach these guys how to be patrols and how to accomplish things...and you can't do that sitting back "knitting". First we need to let them know what is expected...What they are supposed to be doing. Then we need to show them the ways they can accomplish those tasks. Will they then just jump to it? Heck no...If I asked you to design a working oil refinery you couldn't do it...and we can't expect these kids to get the patrol method right either...not without training and practice. As leaders -we need to teach...we start small, offer suggestions, allow brain storming, have them make lists, and then ASK QUESTIONS...example -"gosh John, you want to go camping in Texas next weekend, well we live in Maine, How are we going to get there and back in three days?" ...or.... "You want to build a five story pioneering tower? Great, where do we get the wood? Can you think of some sources? how are we going to raise money for the spars?...." In many cases if you posed the 'problems' they can come up with solutions or the determination that it may be time to rethink the idea: well gee wiz, maybe we build a one story tower this time!". The true problems generally come from adults wanting to make things "March"...we want to see great progress in a short time and patrol democracy is not very pretty...so we "take over" or talk too much, thinking that we can do it better and faster (both questionable sometimes) but if we do it -they can't learn. Think of it as an exploration from two different directions...we are looking at it one way and they look at it from a different angle...WE have to "see" what they see and then try to explore with them (from the back seat without them knowing we are there). Like riding a good horse -a very light hand on the reins...but still there to direct and "check" when you must. We find questioning/statements like "how about...?", "What do you think about...?", "How could you....?), "Do you think...?", "What else could we.....?", really get the BOYS juices flowing...We do not 'nix' anything right out of the gate...but we lead them to explore the ideas and possible results, costs and realities...it takes time...lots of time and it can be frustrating to the "Nth" degree but it is a good way to teach boys and interestingly it show us parents that given a chance the boys can do way more than we ususally give them credit for...our motto is "If a boy can do it, Adults don't!" example- Planning a meal- If you ask a new scout patrol to plan breakfast, you are likely to get a five course meal: Pop Tarts, Cocoa Puffs, Fruit Loops, sugar pops and donuts...not even any milk! On the other hand if you say...what do you guys like for breakfast at home...a whole catalog of items will come rushing out and some of them might even be good food! Then a suggestive question such as: how would we cook scrambled eggs? what would we need?...and the race is on...time consuming? Yes! But highly worth while. This process is repeated on nearly every planning task you can think of and then you and the PL fill in the gaps...in the open so the boys get to see how it is done... let us know if we can help Anarchist

E-bay is good for uniforms ...but YARD SALES ARE GREAT! I have four shirts No more than $2-3.00 each, two pants and one shorts...(sized- short & chubby) grand total $30.00 for 7 items! Further, my wife (this dear lady gives a whole new meaning to "A Scout is thrifty") has picked up five mess kits -$0.50 each(two are excellent, very old, really thick Aluminium sets- I finally had to start giving them away as prizes to the NSPs 'cause we were running out of space) two nearly complete patrol cook sets- $5.00 per set, several coleman lanterns -$2.00 each, coleman two burner stove- $1.00, MSR dragonfly backpacking stove $40.00 (used once) plus two Trails End external frame packs -$2.50 each, and Jansport internal frame (3000 cu. in.) pack $5.00, Jansport external frame pack -$2.00, BSA hand ax-$1.00, BSA nickle plated whistle (still in its case)-$0.50! If you enjoy "junk" hunting and don't mind using second hand gear you can outfit a whole troop in a few years of "prospecting". 'course it helps to live in or near metropolitan suburbs. Large community-wide sales in the spring are wonderful hunting grounds...but it can be habit forming...like scouting! Whenever I hear someone say "too expensive" ...I tell them to get to the flea markets and yard sales...thrift stores and E-Bay! Stretch those dollars! Anarchist

SR540Beaver, RE:FScouter- On your defense-sorry but in context,as read-NO ONE mentioned-even intimated that the boys or the scouters planned or were planning a P.B. activity as a troop event. Only that the boys wanted to go and they found a solution by not making it a boy scout event... Are you really saying that because we are scouters we can not contenence a group of our scouts getting together for a nonBSA sanctioned activity? I suppose next we have to tell them they can only think clean "boy scout" type thoughts when at meetings??? Please! For FScouter to imply that a scouter was showing boys how to make unetheical based on what was written was simply wrong. There was no ethical issue. If the troop was "clean" (truely clean)no schedule, no BSA support...just kids wanting to do something legal that was not a BSA approved activity where is the dilemma? Where is the unethical lesson? Why did FScouter have to inject something where it was not a prior part of the thread? As a moderator he should (unlike me)know to show restraint ....before intimating DugNevis helped them make unethical decisions. Story- When My oldest Joined the Troop one ofthe most popular events on the troop calendar was the PAINTBALL trip...yes the Paintball trip...I am convinced that it was one of the major reasons my son continued into Boys Scouts...'cause his older friends would talk about 'painting' someone 'up'...not being fully up on BSA regs at the time I didn't see it coming but during my training- up popped the "NO PAINTBALL" law...a few of us went back to the troop and committee and the activity was dropped from the schedule and has stayed dropped for nine years...but the boys still get together and "mark 'em up". What they did was not in any way unethical. It is a game boys really seem to like (its legal) and they wanted to continue...THey did it as guys not BOY SCOUTS...but does FScouter really believe that when we did not say "NO, NO, BAD, BAD PAINTBALL we were help them learn to make unethical decisions? If not why did he say it? If so...good grief. nuff said Anarchist

FScouter, way off base and out of line. Just because an activity is not approved for the BSA program does not mean that we can not tolerate or even encourage participation...we are not living in a vacume...er most of us aren't in any case. Allowing them to participate outside of scouting is unethical. As Scouters we can not use the BSA program to foster or support Paintball (or fencing?) but there is absolutely nothing wrong with me taking my son and his friends fencing or paintballing...as long as it is not a scouting activity. Personally, paintball is not enjoyable to me...too much like a game we played in south east asia. But because I do not find the "game" enjoyable does not mean that I will discourage those who like it from playing ....even if they are scouts...Football is not a merit badge/G2SS activity...encouraging boys to play football in school or in clubs is not an ethical dilemma (or is it verboten Herr Uberfieldmarshall?). Give us a break. Trevorum, allowing a fencing demo is no different than offering to let scouts watch an air show, sky divers, military rifle drills or taking them to Scout night at the football games...nor is it inconsistant...it is an educational experience and entertainment...BSA recognizes the real world really does exist (somewhere, anyway) and that other activities (not G2SS approved) can help boys grow and prosper.(can you say college scholarships, strong bodies, life long physical activities, etc.)And not everyone can play golf. As many of us have said before BSA dodges liability issues with many of its "program rules" and then couches those rules in a "non violent" philosophy message...but they never say paintball, fencing, football, karate, etc., are wrong or even bad...simply not approved for BSA program...It's their game...we play by the house rules... 'course then you have the program Martinets that have to issue value judgements on every little thing...no matter how silly it makes them look or sound.... parry, reposte, Touche! anarchist

How 'bout a survey? If next year was the last year your scout was going to camp (and here we are not talking about the national H.A. programs- just really good summer programs)...Where would you take your boys? To be instructional/useful for those troops who will not travel by air/train lets break it into time zones....Eastern, Central,Mountain, and Pacific... perhaps, list camp name, council and zone...and a couple (or more) reasons why you like it... anyone want to play? for starters: Camp Rodney, Del Mar Va, Eastern reasons: great waterfront programs, good clean facilities and staff consistantly trained and motivated to treat you as a valued customer...and not like someone disturbing their summer vaction.... let the games begin! ANARCHIST

Demonstrations are not merit badges, they are entertainment... education not BSA programs... BSA probably doesn't give a darn about paintball except it is an activity that 'projects' violence at living things thus no paintball, fencing, boxing (and other martial arts) targets are fine (shotgunning etc) live targets are not... Its just not the message they want to "send"...As and old sabre swinging swashbuckler...Iand the father of a boy who "loves to mark up people" I think its a shame...but there are other ways to "engage" in these activities.... Let's bring back taxidermy! Anarchist(This message has been edited by anarchist)

Ah a topic near and dear to my heart! After being told by a GAZILLION scouters and several folks at counci that it could not be done,(well I might be exaggerating a bit it could have just been a BAZILLION) OGE jumped in with section and verse...it is only in publications the SE or Council registrar have regular access to. BUT only on vote at council, an agreement on who will sign documents...again only one party...it is a dicy road to walk...but it is possible... trying to get two "sharing" organizations to determine who gets to do the admin stuff can be a deal breaker...the "sponsor" idea can work but sometimes councils get "catty" about fund (cash) contributions to units....and asking sponsor "A" to cut a check to the CO (which is the "owner" of you bank account usually since most units are not (501)c-3's on their own)can cause some heart burn...BUT IT CAN BE DONE! ANARCHIST

Fencing is in the same group as paintballing- not approved.... engarde!....splatt!....not fair!

Eagle97_78 et al.... gosh such bad, bad people...wanting their sons to get Eagles...can you say "get a life"...not to be a pain here but lets be real...people are people- most of us have "warts" of some sort or another. This mom may be the real wicked "witch" of the north...or she may just know what motivates her son...(duh?!) "Bribery" or motivation can be a valuable tool... Competition can also be a good thing... and they can also be terribly distructive if mis-used. We are scout leaders- not family councilors -we do our best by the boys and we to try to educate the parents as to what our program is then we stand back...with only the "lightest" hand on the reins...and your job is to assist the boys not parent them... sorry to say but IMHO if anything you- not mom, are 'out of line' (except for the 'going off in someones face" part)...You have absolutely no right to instruct or judge anyone elses interfamily dynamics... Offer the program and support the boys but keep your nose out of other folks family life unless you are invited "in"...Would it be so wrong for the boy to get eagle? At least he gets introduced to a large part of our program and some of it might just 'stick'. Can you say any 10, 12, 14 year old boy knows- (really knows) what the Eagle is 'about' when he starts the trail? Heck...how many Eagles have let "us" down; when as Adults they break the law etc?...Can you say these 'crooks' knew what or why they "got" the Eagle...really? As most in these forums know, I am a big believer in "mature" eagles...and personally, in my experience, I have never been face to face with a thirteen year old or even a fourteen year old Eagle who I would want to go on a hard trek with or even follow on a long hike! (before you go off on me...it's just MY experience...I am sure there are others who justifiably hold a different opinion). More to the point, again- only my limited experience- every young eagle I've ever known has dropped scouting like a virtual hot rock shortly after get the darn thing...I much prefer 16-18 year olds staying with the program because they like the program and "oh yes, the eagle is nice too!" Our troop has awarded 5 Eagles in the last twelve months to an "aging" patrol of 16 to near 18 year olds. Many have "aged out" recently ...but I am very proud they stayed in our program - because it was fun! Fun even when they were in High School! But even after saying that- I still believe a particular scouts motivation and speed of advancement is not mine to judge or slow down...I am in scouting to help, not to hinder and certainly not to judge... advice..? bite your tongue and do your best by the boy... You can not save the world...just do your best by the boys. Anarchist

Venividi makes heap bit o' sense...Mr. Roberts rules are wonderful for redirecting energy... Active Parents are our friends- even when they are not- Train them- remember always that sugar works better than vinegar (except on salads) and when all else fails the CO can request that a recharter of any individual not be accepted...(ie you're fired)...in most cases its just a matter of using the rules to run the show...like most "A" types they like to hear themselves spout off...if you take the "fun" out of it they usually go away... Most important is the CC (backed whenever possible by the COR) must constantly remind the committee quibblers (when they are out of order) what the committees job is and what it is not! grins anarchist

RE:NCAC Camp Snyder this camp is going to be very nice for Cubs, and of limited value to "camping boys scouts". In less than two years the camp will be totally circled by development (houses) so the camping experience even in the "primitive camping area will be akin to camping in your back yard. It will be absolutely fantastic as a training center and cub scout camp however...which is what it is meant to be. It will have many interesting features...and if it is successful it will be a great asset to cub scout training and retention...I hope we get it right! It will not be used for JAMBO... Hope you all notices a factoid about NCAC as a council... 85,000 scouts and 23,000 volunteers...better than one volunteer per four scouts...that helps the council succeed more than anything...('course being in an affluent reigion does help) Anarchist

Balding Eagle, For us...Troop policy is travel to and from nearly all events in Uniform...at camps the boys can dress down to scout Tees (we have our own troop tees and the troop frequently awards the BSA activity shirts as "awards") shorts or pants (we "allow" green BDUs for camps)Flag ceremony requires return to Uniform as does Summercamp dining hall and Sunday service... Caving and canoe trips dispense with the full uniform requirement for Tees and shorts (as appropriate)or overalls etc... We find many of the boys wear the Field uniform shirt all weekend long as do most of the adult leaders (most of us have two or three "Class A " shirts).

welcome aboard Marine, long road ahead full of smiles, frowns and everything in between...Just keep in mind... It's hard to fly with the Eagles if you let the Turkeys get you down... semper fi Anarchist

gwd-scouter, The badge of rank is just that... a badge... not the pin. The night the boy earns his rank he should be given the patch to sew on for the next meeting. BSA says he earns the rank and he is the rank...so let him wear the rank ASAP. We have a troop gather for closing and at that time all boys have completed a BoR are... one by one... called forward and honored for earning rank. They are given their rank patch by the SM right then and there. The card and the pin are given at the court of honor in front of friends, family and the troop... there is absolutely no good reason to delay allowing them to wear the patch...so please modify you troop tradition let them wear the bagde with pride as long as possible...heck by the time you get to a CoR I can see several boys need ing two rank patches and never "getting" to were the lower rank... Think about it Anarchist

ronvo, Antichrist...huh? well there are lots of folks in these forums who feel thats what I am...:>} (right F-Scouter?) not sure this will help cause our troop is not financially stressed. My unit is very fortunate. We have been a 100% uniform troop "for-nearly-ever". We are in a semi-rural, rapidly gentrifying area of Virginia. Most of the scouts do not have money issues...parental divorce issues maybe, but not really hand to mouth money issues. We require, (yes) require uniforms...not all at once... but at the least, a shirt and a plan to acquire the rest... fairly early in the scout's tenure. Our parents are really behind us on this so that helps. The SPL does and uniform inspection every night and the Least uniformed (by %) patrol gets to be the service patrol for the next meeting...though its getting tough...lots of 96-98% recently... WE used to have an "old uniform" pantry...but recently we have been sending our uniiforms to other units needing help. Then, we are ALSO fortunate to have several leaders who are able and willing to furnish a boy what he needs...If a boys parent(s) come(s) to the committee and lets us know money is an "issue"... we make sure the boy does not miss out on anything "scouting" because his family would not be able to provide...uniforms, gear, summercamp, ETC....our official committee policy is no scout stays behind- because of money, AND THE FUNDS FOR THIS ARE NOT THE TROOPS- BUT PRIVATE FUNDS DONATED FOR THIS PURPOSE! Mind you, this is not a "charity" gift...this program is a flexible "work it off"- as a loan program...the boy will/would be found jobs and chores so he can honestly say he earned his way...( trust me, my sons have no problem at all if dad sends them a "helper" to repair a fence or clean a stall...) Interestingly enough, as committee members "move on" we always seem to aquire another few kind souls who are willing to carry on the policy...more interestingly...even boys we think migh need our help usually 'do it on their own one they figure out the "score". I doubt if we have "bought" more than a couple of partial uniforms and a couple of "half" summercamps in the last seven years...but the offer is always there. As to our contests...we have several each year and they are used to assist/motivate fund raising efforts or program efforts...comming up we have a SM's "history challenge" asking for boys to give an oral (and written) history for a low ranking civil war soldier who fought at Getteysburg...these will be "told" around our campfire this year at our Gettysburg "encampment". Troop will offer several scout certificates as prizes for "Appropriate" outdoor gear. WE also do a cooking contest at a local Church community picnic where "poor" unsuspecting members of the community are drafted to judge the scout entries...and again three nice certificates are given out...its a blast! anarchist

gwd-scouter, Good for you! or the troop.... as I have said in many other posts and threads... network, network, network...talk about your programs! ASK for help...folks don't know what you need unless you give them an idea! As I have found in dealing with our Troop's "trials and tribulations'over the last nine years...In many cases there are lots of alternatives and options...WE JUST DON'T KNOW THEM YET! And take a "cue" from your kids..."Never take the first no for an answer...or the second...maybe even the third" (I remember your help OGE?)If you keep rooting around you may just come up with an answer only a jail house lawyer could love...(or only a council registrar would know about)... keep smilin' we can see the grin from up here! Anarchist

ronvo, Such a geat idea...BUTTTTTT...that would mean they would be giving more money back to units....and then would not have enough for the office staff! On the other hand, Cub Master Randy nails it! Units can use the money they get from popcorn sales...to offer "scout gear prizes". Our Troop has been doing this for Years and Years...on almost any fund raiser we do...even those totally for the troop funding we give 1st, 2nd, 3rd place "scout stuff awards"..."reimbursement" for funds spent on uniform parts, backpacks, hiking shoes, mess kits, leathermen tools, it motivates some...others it is not a "turn" on... we also give such prizes as awards for various scoutmaster challenge contests throughout the year...cooking, compass courses, races, activity planning....(think LARGE!) Council- HA! District-HA! But there is nothing to say you can not offer such a program "locally"! RUN WITH IT! Anarchist

Trevorum, Moving on is good.... while I lov (no e) my F-250, four door, Diesel, scout and troop trailer haulin' (no g)truck we must all remember the ford pinto. Yes that PoS engineering marvel called for a time the sterno-can-on-wheels. But then is seems to me I recall GM having similar issues with vehicles...generally remember the more bells and whistles we "ask" for the more chances for "bugs" in the system... As for the "responcibility" issues...why heck if our political leaders refuse to accept responciblity for their mistakes why should we expect any less from their business friends???? Hopefully, some of what we do ...is towards changing the current system of "lie and deny"... good luck with your chevy...my last one, a beefed up K-10, ran 360,000+ miles (course the odometer died for bout two years around 210,000)-still use it as a "farm" truck.... Anarchist