Hal_Crawford

555 raises a really good question. The new medical form contains a phrase "Individuals desiring to participate in any high-adventure activity..." but I can't find a definition of "high-adventure activity". There are a number of high-adventure programs but what are the activities. The GSS assigns age limits to various activities but does not define those activities as high-adventure or not-high-adventure. I think I know what it is but the next guy might not agree in all cases. In a lot of cases it seems like a matter of degree; trekking for a week is high-adventure but trekking for a weekend probably isn't. Climbing/rappelling are not necessarily high adventure but they might be given a location or conditions... It wouldn't really matter if BSA were not using the term to determine whether or not a person is fit enough to participate. Really good question. I look forward to what others have to say. Hal

Welcome to the forum. Your scout pedigree is much like mine, I did cubs, arrow of light and made 2nd class and some work on 1st (I love to say I was close but I don't think it would be true) before I was sidelined with an injury and then moved oversees. 35 years later my son was in the same pack. I was a committee member and then spent a year as Cubmaster. Both of us continued with scouting (not my old troop as it was long gone) he was a patrol leader and senior patrol leader and earned his Eagle before turning 18. I was Committee Chair and then Assistant Scout Master and I have no plans to stop anytime soon. I agree with Frank that being there is a real help to keep your son interested; more so in Cubs, less so in Boy Scouts. As your boy gets older he will appreciate you stepping into the background, still there but not so close. As an adult leader, get as much training as you can. Start with some of the things you can take on line like Cub Scout Leader Fast Start and Youth Protection training. See http://www.scouting.org/CubScouts/Leaders/Training.aspx for training info. One caveat about this forum. You will find that there are a lot of people with strong opinions and sometimes abrasive personalities. Don't be put off by the discussions here before your first den meeting or camp out 'cause that is where the fun is. There is also a lot of good information to be had here. If your experience is like mine you will find a lot of adult friends in scouting and a lot of boys you will care about almost as much as your own son. Good luck and best wishes. Hal

Sounds like a great program. I sometimes wish that we (in the DC area) had the kind of winters where you could actually count on snow. Our Klondike derby sleds always have wheels! Ice fishing is something they do someplace else. It is unseasonably cold here today which means that it is below freezing and we actually saw some snow flakes yesterday for a brief instant. On the other hand, shoveling the driveway and walk on a daily basis might get old. Packsaddle knows in his heart that the GSS limits black powder shooting to percussion caps. No flint locks. Happy New Year, Hal

Some of these posts have piqued my curiosity regarding the level of scouting in South and Central America. I found this in Wikipedia regarding scouting in the Americas: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WOSM-Interamerican_Region Scouting does exist in most of the countries but the organizations are small and in many cases coeducational. This seems to confirm that scouting is an upper class institution in many of these countries. It appears Argentina, Brazil (portuguese speaking and culturally different from the Spanish speaking countries) and Mexico have the largest organizations. While we have a small Argentinean community, neither Brazil nor Mexico is heavily represented in the immigrant community in my area. The lack of a wide-spread scouting tradition in most Spanish speaking countries contributes to the challenge of attracting Hispanic youth to scouting but should not preclude success. Hal

Barry: I think I was the first to use the word racist in this thread so I will point out that it was with regard to the possibility of "unscoutlike" incidents involving Latino scouts. Not all Latinos are illegal immigrants. Not all Latinos are even immigrants and many are US citizens. Lumping all Latinos together, illegals, legal residents and US citizens (whether through birth or naturalization) is one of the causes of racism against the hispanic community. It is the very sort of thing that the BSA will have to deal with when Latino and other scouts are mixed together at camporees or summer camps. I was not directing the term racist toward anyone on this forum so I am sorry if you took offense. I feel that BSA faces a choice of either not reaching out to Latino communities for fear of "unscoutlike incidents" or to face the issue head-on and take a stand that the BSA will view such behavior as unacceptable from scouts or scouters.

Agreed.

That is a fascinating piece of information. At least Dr. Hornaday took action when the black community objected to this blatantly racist display. Madison Grant makes for some interesting reading as well. Like Hornaday he was a noted conservationist and a friend of presidents Teddy Roosevelt and Herbert Hoover. His writings on race and eugenics however strongly influenced anti-immigration and anti-miscegenation laws in the US and were embraced by the National Socialist movement in Germany. Hitler referred to one of his books as "my Bible". His writings were introduced as evidence at the Nuremberg war crime trials to defend the Nazi euthanasia program . It is scary how close Dr. Hornaday was to someone who's influence led to such evil. Certainly food for thought. I agree that Benjamin Button was a good movie but I think it needed another pass through the editing room... man it was long. The similarity to Forrest Gump is more than coincidental; same screenwriter.

Scoutledr: After looking at the site again I see that I was wrong and it does address your condition under the adult guidelines: "Participants with sleeping disorders may experience health risks due to long days and short nights for the duration of the jamboree. Participants with sleep apnea requiring a CPAP machine should reconsider participation. If considered fit, all equipment (e.g., CPAP machine) must be provided by the participant and be self-contained as there will not be electrical support for the machine. This includes batteries (without provisions for recharging) to be both brought to and taken away from the jamboree (remember Leave No Trace guidelines)". Assuming that your CPAP is battery operated and that you are otherwise fit then it sounds like you can go (though they want you to think about it). I would check now to see what (if anything special) they want from your doctor so that the discussion doesn't go south at check-in. Could be a expensive conversation depending on how far you traveled from "The New World". Again, best of luck, Hal

Scoutldr: Rather than making assumptions based on the Scouter article I would suggest that you visit the Jamboree site for more specific information. http://www.bsajamboree.org/prepared.html The site goes into a lot more detail about specific risk factors. It does not address your particular issue or define what they mean by "medical devices" but there is a link to contact them with questions about specific risk factors. I think it is a bit of a leap to infer that handicapped scouts "need not apply and are not welcome". I certainly hope that is not the case. Best of luck. Hal

I agree with much of what shortridge says. The key component is the chartering organization as church is very important in hispanic culture. Latino/hispanic is not one culture but they are more unified than the Asian community and they are closer to each other than they are to us. Trying to reach the Asian community is even harder as the various groups do not like each other. The Vietnamese have a strong scouting heritage and have active units with there own structure and a strong cultural component and family involvement. I have not seen anything similar from the other asian communities in our area. It is also hard to get enough of a critical mass in most of these insular communities start an active scout program. Maybe we should look at how Vietnamese-American units work for clues to reaching other family-centric ethnic groups I also think that the BSA may have made too many concessions with LDS scouting but I don't know. It seems to work for them and I don't see how it has lessened the experience for non-LDS scouts. Our council has certainly benefited from LDS membership and donations (Marriott Scout Service Center, Camp Marriott to name two high profile council facilities). There is pressure to get their scouts to Eagle by 14 but a strong DAC can maintain quality control if they have a mind to. How will an influx of Latino scouts play out at a camporee or summer camp? Will the anti-immigrant sentiment boil over into incidents of "unscoutlike" behavior... lets call it what it is... racism? This very well may be a problem but if the Unit, District and Council leaders do not deal with it then we are not living the scout law. I am sure that the same arguments were used when councils began to put blacks and whites together in camporees and summer camps. I'm also sure there were regrettable incidents. It may also be a reason that BSA's attempts to raise the level of African-American participation have produced less than overwhelming results. We need to do better this time. We need to expect better from our scouts and scouters alike. We need to be part of the solution, not part of the problem. What are the stakes here? If 60% of Americans will be of Hispanic descent (I question that figure but White Anglo-European is certainly becoming a minority) and scouts do not embrace them then the BSA will become increasingly irrelevant. Today's youth are far more likely to be friends with kids of other ethnic groups than those of previous generations. If the BSA continues to be perceived to be a white middle-class organization then even white kids won't want to join because their black, latino and asian friends will think it is uncool. Then we will be left with our memories of what once was. Maybe it is inevitable... I hope not. Hal

That was one of the changes implemented in the 1970s to make the Boy Scouts more hip and urban. Red Berets were one of four approved forms of head gear. They didn't look hip or urban... they looked dorky. I found an old Bicycling merit badge book that showed a scout cycling in uniform with his beret on. To me it just highlighted the changes in 30 years... today he wear a helmet. Hal

BP: In our area the majority of the immigrants are from Salvador and Bolivia with some Peruvians and Columbians. As with the Mexicans, recreation is centered around the family which poses a challenge for the scouting program. Another huge problem is qualified leaders. There isn't a lot of scouting background in these communities so it is difficult to find anyone with the experience to lead a troop. An Anglo Scoutmaster isn't the answer as there are just too many cultural issues. I suspect that Latino units will have to have some leeway in how they implement the program in order to make it work with their culture. Cub Scouting already has a lot of family involvement and I would think that in Latino units there would be more than with other units. I see this as a matter of degrees and I doubt that it will be the end of scouting. The challenge will be to ween the Boy Scout program away from the family. There comes a point where you can't have mom and dad and your little sister coming along. I also wonder if the "Duty to Country" part of scouting poses a problem for people who do not necessarily think of the US as their country. This could be divisive in families where the scout was born here and thinks of himself as an American but the parents still think of themselves as Salvadorian and dream of returning to their home country. This is a tough nut to crack but numbers and donations do matter and to do nothing may also spell an end to scouting as we know it. I just hope no one thinks the solution lies in red berets. Hal

SA: I think the answer will have to be somewhere in the middle. The market for the scouting organization that we experienced as youths has dwindled. Times change and the needs and wants of people (both youth and parents) change. The question is how to remain true to our core values while still attracting new members. The change in the seventies was flawed because it moved away from being an outdoor program. IMHO the greatest contribution scouting makes is getting kids out in the woods. This is heresy but duty to God and country, the scout oath and the scout law are not what attracts boys to scouting or keeps them involved. They sure don't come for the nifty uniforms. Some of these latter things appeal to parents and chartering organizations but outings are what keep the boys engaged. A major challenge will be to attract boys who's parents have no background in scouting and are uncomfortable with their boys sleeping away from home. If the BSA solves this problem by de-emphasizing camping then they are going down the wrong path. If they help boys and their parents overcome their concerns and work their way into camping and other outdoors experiences then that is great. Have you seen anything about the program that combines cub scouting and soccer? http://www.soccerandscouting.org There are few things with stronger appeal in the Latino community than soccer. This could be great if it is more than soccer and it introduces the boys to camping and other outdoor activities. If it ends up being just another soccer league then what's the point? Hal

For those who haven't seen it, this is BSA's site aimed at Hispanic/Latino communities. http://www.scoutingvalelapena.org/ Vale la pena=it's worth the effort. With regard to change in scouting, we can't live in the past but I hope we don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Some traditions probably will not be missed but scouting cannot totally give up its identity to change with the times. There were questions not asked in the survey, particularly of the Gen X/Millennials: 1. Would you be more or less interested in scouting if it were coeducational at the Cub and/or Boy Scout level? 2. Do the controversies concerning BSA membership policies regarding gays and atheists affect your decision to enroll or not enroll your son in scouting? (note that professional survey companies would word these questions far better than I did)

It is great that BSA is again trying to expand into the Latino community but there are serious hurtles to clear before achieving any sort of penetration. In the immigrant community there is a large percentage of illegals who will not want there sons names on the roles as it might lead to them being found out and deported. Sadly, even though the son might be legal there will be hesitancy if anyone in the household is not. Even where this is not an issue many immigrants come from countries with repressive governments where it is best to keep a low profile. Overcoming these fears will take time and effort. It looks like they are launching the trial balloon in communities that have well established hispanic communities that go back for generations. Sounds like a good place to establish a foothold. Another problem is that Latino immigrants are often working multiple jobs to make ends meet in our country. This makes parental involvement in scouting difficult. I am not sure that the comparison to 1972 is valid. I have read in other threads that the changes in that year were the downfall of scouting and perhaps they were but I am not so sure. I graduated from high school in 1971. My school had 1200 students in 10th through 12th grades. My graduating class had 600 students; half the school graduated! I think we were the last gasp of the baby boom. (The average class at that same school is now about 400) It is no surprise that several troops went belly up in the years that followed. Could it be that it was the demographic shift more than the program shift?

Feliz Natal e prospero ano novo ao todo mundo. (from my time in Brazil). And from Dickens, "God bless us everyone". Hal

You guys are making fun of our capital weather. If it weren't for the humidity congress might stay here year round... nobody wants that. Seriously, up until the 1980s the British Foreign Office considered their embassy in DC to be a hardship post... equivalent to Jonestown Guiana.

Get Smart. Would you believe...? Missed it by that much! Tap dancing penguins... I think we have come full circle. Happy holidays!

JKC: You might surprised to learn that Missouri's good samaritan law only covers medical professionals and other persons with appropriate training. It also has an exception for "gross negligence or willful or wanton acts or omissions" Ever known a lawyer to call negligence anything less than gross? http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/c500-599/5370000037.htm I suspect the woman would find as little protection in MO as she did in CA. Hal

The ABC article indicates that both victim and rescuer had been drinking but does not say whether rescuer was intoxicated. It also indicates that the case turned on whether it was the assistance given was medical assistance. Searching California good samaritan produces a number of articles about the case going back to when it was in Appellate court. Seems that the California statute is being interpreted to protect doctors on an accident scene rather than lay people. Important lesson here (in addition to being as well trained as possible) is to know the good samaritan laws in your state. Some are better than others, some are broad and some are quite narrow. In at least one state the law only applies to CPR or severe bleeding. Some states only cover trained rescuers. Most states require that the victim not object to receiving aid but do not require a victim to give permission. Some require that a conscious victim consent to aid (an unconscious victim gives implied consent). Victim in the California case was conscious and it appears she did not give consent. Whether she objected to receiving aid is unclear. In ASHI Wilderness First Aid training I was taught to always ask for consent if the victim was conscious. Other important point is that the ruling only allows the victim to sue, it doesn't rule one way or the other regarding fault. A jury will get to sort that out and either award damages or not.

Scoutldr: Just saying that was the advice they were giving at this orientation. The point was that given the increased altitude BP would probably read higher than it did at home and they were giving advice to avoid getting a big surprise at med check... I think the referred to it as a $2000 surprise. They also recommended starting a serious training program to build strength and stamina and dropping weight if you were over the recommended weight. I certainly did not take it as medical advice but rather as suggestions from people who had been there and were familiar with the conditions and the medical check that each scout and scouter was going to be subjected to at PSR. Coffee isn't part of the Philmont rations nor is it on the list of things that they recommend bringing. That being said, I wasn't going to Philmont but on a much less intense high adventure trek (would that be lower adventure?) at lower altitude. I worked on building endurance and dropped a few pounds but I didn't sweat the caffein.

What's next, Men in Tights? By the way, I am sitting at home watching a swift water rescue live on local (DC TV). 66" water main broke turning a suburban road into a river, stalled cars turned it into rapids. Drivers and passengers have been rescued by helicopter and a swift water rescue team in a john boat.

I have to go with Bob on this one. Look at almost any thread on this forum that deals with a BSA policy and you will see interpretations all over the board. Its not that Scouters can't be trusted to do what they think is right, its that by doing so there will be so many different policies that there will end up being no policy at all. To keep control of the "brand" national cannot let others decide what is appropriate use. At least BSA has (for once) clearly stated a policy in a way everyone can understand. I don't think any of the posters on this thread have any doubt about what the policy says, we just disagree on whether the policy is right.

I think Brent has gotten to the heart of the issue. Who decides which causes are worthy of scout fund raising? Who decides what organizations deserve the endorsement of the BSA through the use of our trademarked symbols and/or uniforms? The answer is the National Council does and they are not delegating that authority to the units or the councils or to you or me... not event to Bob. This way they never have to worry about councils or units (or you or me or Bob) making choices that might prove to be embarrassing; they don't have to worry about the American Red Cross saying, well you let them do it for the Salvation Army and then the Sierra Club, the NRA and the People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals and the ACLU. Far fetched to be sure but a sound legal position. I believe they picked the Salvation Army as the example because a) It is probably a question that comes up frequently and b) because the excellent reputation of the Salvation Army it makes it clear that they mean ALL organizations, NO exceptions, NOT EVEN the Salvation Army. Another question that might be asked when scouts ring the bells in uniform: Are the Boy Scouts getting a cut of the pot? Of course the answer would be no but the perception might not benefit either organization.

BP: I understand that thumbing out adult leaders for weight and/or blood pressure is a common occurrence at Philmont. Our council had an orientation for all leaders taking scouts to any high adventure base. A lot of it was directed at those going with the council contingent to Philmont. They spent a lot of time warning us that the weight limits were for real and that people with blood pressure issues should cut out caffein a week or two before the trek. These weight limits are nothing new at Philmont and given the altitude, climate and length of trek I can certainly see why.