Hal_Crawford

Getting the straight answers is difficult in part because BSA does an awful job of writing policy. In the G2SS they often fail to clearly define their terms and they often use the word "should" when they may mean "must". They use the word "guidelines" when they probably mean "rules". Sort of like the Pirate's code from Pirates of the Caribbean... "its actually more of a guideline". What is "backcountry" or "wilderness"? When does a "hike" become a "trek"? G2SS uses these terms but does not clearly define them. Like the congressman who said he couldn't define porn but he knew it when he saw it, we all probably think we know what these things are but this forum is full of threads that demonstrate that we do not all agree. There are apparent contradictions because of this vague use of language. "All backcountry treks must be supervised by a mature, conscientious adult..." Where does the backcountry start and how does this affect patrol camping that is not only permitted but encouraged? What is "high adventure"? The new Health form includes special requirements for high-adventure but again, it is not clearly defined. Many think that there is a rule against sheath knives. In fact it says they should be "avoided" and that they are "unnecessary". Some camps prohibit them. Any wonder there is confusion? IMHO they should either prohibit them (with specific exceptions if there are activities that legitimately need them) or drop the reference to sheath knives all together. Frankly, I think the G2SS is the product of an unholy compromise between those who would like a rule for everything (probably lawyers) and those who really don't want any rules that might cramp their style or change the way things were done by BP, Greenbar Bill, the old WB and\/or the troops they were in when they were boys. The result is a series of guidelines many of which can be interpreted as rules or ignored as suggestions with equal validity. I would be happy if the G2SS would a) clearly define its terms, b) clearly indicate when something is a rule or when it is a recommended best practice and c) try to maintain consistency with other BSA documents such as the SM handbook. I would love it if this forum could "clear the air and get out straight answers" but I doubt that is possible. Hal

I not sure our CO, a Baptist church knew that we had a White Lightning patrol. Hal

Looking at the AWB it does not appear that the M1 qualified as an "assault weapon". The ban's definition was that it be: Semi automatic (it is) Have a detachable magazine (it does) and that it have TWO of the following: Folding or telescoping stock (no) Pistol grip (no) flash suppressor (no) Bayonet lug (yes) Grenade launcher (unless fitted with an M7 grenade launcher-no). A bayonet lug by itself does not make an assault weapon. IF the M1 is considered an assault weapon it is at least in part because it can fire a rifle grenade. There were some variants of the M1 that had flash suppressor or a folding stock but they are pretty rare.

Our troop had about 16 members, over half of them in the 14-15 age range. We just bridged 8 scouts increasing our size by 50%. Before they arrived the PLC decided to put them in a NSP. The new scouts have arrived and a couple of things happened. Two parents told the SM that their boys had chosen our troop they didn't want to in a NSP (don't know why they thought we wouldn't do that) and the older scouts realized that this has a lot of uncontrolled energy and enthusiasm and as a patrol they might go thermonuclear, and oh yeah, none of the scouts really wanted to be the Troop Guide responsible for all eight scouts in the NSP. New plan, the PLC has now decided that the new scouts will be distributed between the two patrols at next week's meeting. I was pleased that the leaders, once they saw the new guys as a mob, realized that their plan was not the best (and by the way, I thought the NSP was the right idea as well) and they adapted to the situation. Their decision was in part enlightened self-interest but mostly it was based on what was good for the new scouts and good for the troop as a whole. BTW: I am a great fan of the book. It is difficult to remember that the Toccoa men were only a few years older than our senior scouts. Hal

Firedog: Getting the boy to change his socks, or any of his clothes is the real challenge. We advise scouts to pack five days worth of clothes in five separate zip lock bags. That way, when they come home they can put four clean sets of clothes back in their drawers ;-) Truth is the scout might change clothes/socks when they become miserable. Maybe, just maybe he will know better the next time or maybe the time after that... The soldiers that landed on D-Day wore the same clothes (impregnated with something impermeable to protect from gas) for 3 or 4 weeks. I guess the scouts can survive a week at camp. Hal

Apparently Clinton did not have enough confidence in what he was seeing or saying to stage an invasion of Iraq... or perhaps he believed it but had enough sense to deal with it through other means. Once upon a time Saddam had WMD, that is well known as he used poison gas on the Kurds. The Israeli air force blew is nuclear program to kingdom come years ago. But it was not clear that he had them in the 90's or since. Even if he did, that was not enough justification to invade. If it were we would have invaded Korea, Pakistan, Iraq, India, Israel, Russia, Ukraine... And because Bush and Rumsfeld limited the number of troops sent to Iraq (generals ordered to revise estimates to fit the SecDef's numbers) they were unable to control the conventional weapons stockpiled there. As a result there is no shortage of materials for making IEDs. Anyone who has read anything about the Middle East could have told you that this was not going to turn out well. Winning the war was a given, winning the occupation, much less winning the peace is another thing entirely. And no, vol-scouter they did not find evidence of WMD. It was reported briefly and then refuted. Hal

No, everyone didn't believe he had WMD. In my area there were a lot of people who were really skeptical. Who lives in my area? Foreign service officers, Pentagon officers and people who work "for the government". There was a lot of head shaking at neighborhood parties in the winter and spring of '03. Bush's administration cherry picked intelligence to justify the war. Hussein was not a nice man. No sh*t! But he was contained. He was no more dangerous than Kim Jung Il or the folks in Iran. People who are probably more of a threat now because we have been stretched thin by waging a two front war. The war was unnecessary. That's the facts. But if you choose to accept that WMD was just an unfortunate error, can you excuse the way he handled the war once it started. Haliburten's no bid contracts? The fact that Bush never included the war in the budget and cut taxes while waging his un-budgeted war? Certainly not the behavior that one associates with the word conservative. Gimme a break! Hal

Brent: Did it bother you when President Bush lied about weapons of mass destruction? Many like to harp about Clinton and Monica but at least he didn't start a war in the process. What about 6 years of budgets that didn't include the war? That was being honest with the American people? No bid contracts, Blackwater, Guantanamo, rendition, waterboarding, Abu Ghraib... the list goes on. In the days after September 11 the entire world was on our side. The entire country was ready to stand with our president and bring the guilty to justice. Bush pissed that all away by abandoning our core values in pursuit of the war on terror and by invading Iraq under false pretenses. I suspect that the war in Iraq has already cost us more than the sum total of all the earmarks that ever passed congress. And where is Osama bin Ladin anyway? But at least Bush didn't get caught cheating on his wife. Hal

Well said, Skeptic. Hal

Consider what other activities his troop will do in the (relatively short) life of these shoes/boots. If they do a lot of hiking then I would lean toward light hikers instead of sneakers. We just had a brand new crossover do a 5 mile backpacking trip with us, his first campout with the troop. We would not have allowed him to go if he was only wearing sneakers. What about mud? I've seen sneaks that have been totally submerged in mud, not a pretty sight especially if it is the only pair of shoes the scout has for a week at camp. Frankly, I would recommend a pair of boots AND a pair of sneakers for a week at camp. As others have stated, socks are really important. Smartwool is great as it wicks and dries faster. I use liners at scout camp. I would not recommend buying shoes/boots on-line as fit and comfort are important. Sizes vary widely between different manufacturer's. In our community we have a locally owned, family run outfitter that most scouts use. Their sales staff know exactly what a scout needs for first time at camp, for troop backpacking or for Philmont. Many of their staff have been scouts, they know the local camping programs and conditions and some have been to Philmont . If you have access to a store like that take advantage of it; you might pay more than online but the expert advice is worth it. Best wishes to your son as he stands at this new trailhead. Hal

It depends on a couple of things. First, how old are you? You need to be a 1st class scout for four (4) months before you can earn Star; you have to be a Star scout for 6 months before you can earn Life and you have to be a Life scout for 6 months before you can earn Eagle. That is a year and four months from your 1st class BOR. If you are older than 16 years 8 months then you can make it to Life but not Eagle. Assuming that you are not too old to have time before your 18th birthday, the second question is how badly do you want to do this? It is a lot of work, you will have to be active in your troop to get the leadership requirements in and you will need to work on a lot of merit badges. If you want to do it you can make it happen but it is totally up to you. Have you talked to your Scoutmaster? If you want to pursue this you should not waste a minute. You need to get re-registered in the troop and get 1st class ASAP. Is it worth it? I think so. I dropped out of scouts at 2nd class and never restarted. It was due to a family move overseas and not a matter of choice. While I do not regret the way things worked out I do wish I could have earned Eagle. My son is an Eagle and I think he would say go for it; but ultimately the question is do you want it? Good luck, YIS Hal

The activity shirt is marked down at Scoutstuff.org from $18.99 to $5.99 and it is only available in Small. Sort of screams "discontinued merchandise".

Eisely: I missed the Oscars this year. Did someone denounce "homophobic boy scouts"? Hal

From G2SS Part III-Camping "Pack Overnighters These are pack-organized overnight events involving more than one family from a single pack, focused on age-appropriate Cub Scout activities and conducted at council-approved locations (councils use Pack Overnighter Site Approval Form, No. 13-508). If nonmembers (siblings) participate, the event must be structured accordingly to accommodate them. BSA health and safety and youth protection guidelines apply. In most cases, each youth member will be under the supervision of a parent or guardian. In all cases, each youth participant is responsible to a specific adult. At least one adult on a pack overnighter must have completed Basic Adult Leader Outdoor Orientation (BALOO, No. 34162) to properly understand the importance of program intent, youth protection guidelines, health and safety, site selection, age-appropriate activities, and sufficient adult participation. Permits for campouts shall be issued locally. Packs use Local Tour Permit Application, No. 34426." http://www.scouting.org/healthandsafety/gss/gss03.aspx#bb Looks like what you want to do is OK as long as there is a specific adult responsible for each youth and training requirements are met.

1 ODL long sleeve with patches 1 ODL short sleeve with patches 1 pair ODL pants 2 pair ODL shorts 2 pair Switchbacks (pre-centennial) 1 scout web belt 1 tooled leather belt with Goshen Scout Reservation 35th anniversary buckle. More scout socks than I can count as I got all my son's when he aged out. No neckers or uniform hats as our troop doesn't wear them. I plan to buy at least one centennial shirt before summer, probably short sleeve. Don't know what I'll use the Technology pocket for as I don't smoke and don't take my ipod camping ;-) I just got 3 green custom troop number/veteran bar patches and will change out the ODL shirts as soon as I get a chance. I am already using the green tabs. Probably should replace red "Trained" patches as well for consistency. I have no swords or bayonets but sometimes think a large club would help.

I saw it last night; excellent film; very moving.

We do a similar investiture. With the lights out, the new scouts are brought blindfolded into the room. Once in place the blindfolds are removed by the PL or SPL. On a table there is a log with 15 candles, three represent duty to Self, God and Country and the remaining 12 for the points of the Scout Law. The candles are lit as each is explained. The SM asks the scouts if they understand the Oath and Law and if there is any reason they cannot live by them. The log has been used for nearly 65 years and the SM usually makes a point of saying that all scouts of our troop have stood before that same log including astronaut David Brown who perished on the shuttle Columbia. Like the stump mentioned in a previous post, there is a lot of wax on the log. New scouts are given their troop numerals (custom patch with veteran bar) if the have not already received it and their first Scout Handbook. Our troop does not wear neckers. The investiture is usually done at a troop banquet in early March although we will do it at any time a new scout joins. Scouts often elect to have their Eagle COH at the banquet though it is by no means required. It is very impressive for the new scouts to see an Eagle COH, the other end of the trail so to speak, right after their investiture. The one other tradition we have is that the troop has camped at Camp Bowman at Goshen Scout Reservation every year since it opened in 1966. As far as I know they have always gone the first week of camp and we almost always camp in site 4 which is named Camp Hitch after Clayton Hitch our first (of 4) and longest serving Scoutmaster. One of the three flagpoles is dedicated to Mr. Hitch and another is dedicated to Captain Charles Bittenbring, our second scoutmaster. The Captain camped at Goshen every year for 35 years until age and infirmity made it impossible for him to continue. My son's generation of scouts were the last to have the honor (and THEY considered it an honor) to camp with him. Even though Mr. Hitch has passed away and the Captain can know longer camp with us, even the newer scouts know of them and the traditions they instilled. YiS, Hal

Ours just arrived too. They look great.

Wait a minute, you guys drive to scout camp? Is that really what Baden Powell had in mind? A clear breakdown of the patrol method! Shame! I blame Woodbadge! Seriously, I don't know the lat/long but I was surprised to find out that Goshen Scout Reservation is one of the preprogrammed locations in my Garmin GPS (nuvie 200, a pretty bare bones model). A number of local church campgrounds that we use are also preprogrammed. In fact, just about every camping area I have looked for was already in there. They are all under the "lodging" menu. The only one that I have field verified is Camp Manidokan, a relatively small Methodist church camp in Maryland (near Harper's Ferry, WV). I was surprised it was in there and even more surprised that it was accurate. Will wonders never cease? Check it out, you may not need to do your own programming for some or all of these camps. But then again, what's the fun in that? Hal

Does everyone here use Long/Lat? UTM seems a better choice for land navigation.

Would anyone give it a second thought if the same boys were working as counselors at summer camp? As long as age requirements for specific activities (climbing for instance) are met then you should be good to go.

Good point Stosh. Shenandoah National Park limits backpacking parties to 10 on a permit. I suspect a lot of other national parks set similar standards in the interest of LNT.

I'm confused, the boy is a Webelo 1, meaning he is fourth grade, right? He is too advanced for Webelos and the leaders (by this I presume pack leaders) think he would strive in Boy Scouts but those same leaders do not feel he has earned AOL? First thing that you as CM needs to do is read the requirements to join Boy Scouts. "Meet age requirements. Be a boy who is 11 years old, or one who has completed the fifth grade or earned the Arrow of Light Award and is at least 10 years old, but is not yet 18 years old". If he is a Webelos 1 he is probably not 11, he may not even be 10 and he has probably not completed fifth grade. Without AOL he will not be qualified to join a troop, even with it he may not meet the requirements. If he doesn't meet the above requirements he is not going to be able to join a troop. If he is 10 but hasn't earned AOL don't give it to him until he has. It would a bad start to his BS career for boy and mom to think that he can get signed off on requirements he doesn't feel like doing. That wouldn't be doing a favor to the boy or his Scoutmaster. I have a hunch I know the rest of the story. Pushy mother and/or a son who is a problem because he is too big, too precocious or won't behave. If he was really ready he wouldn't have any problems meeting the AOL requirements. Cross him over and a make mom and boy someone else's problem. Am I right? If a troop takes him without him meeting the joining requirements the council will probably reject the application leaving boy out in the cold... no favor there. The only other circumstance I could see is if he is a special needs scout who actually meets the age requirements but is still a Webelos 1 but I somehow think you would have mentioned that. Good luck dealing with mom but stick to your guns even if it means the boy has to wait; you will be doing what is best for him. Hal

Our district has a Vietnamese troop and the SM likes to show a picture of a tower built when he was a scout. It was at a camporee in Viet Nam in 1964. This wasn't your typical tower but rather a bamboo replica of the Eiffel Tower. I kid you not, the thing was at least 50' tall and had more than twenty scouts standing on it. He said the base was made of four deciduous logs forming a pyramid but the rest was bamboo. Amazing. And think about doing this in a war zone. Gave me pause to think about what became of the rest of the scouts.

No punishment for being out of uniform just fewer points for scout and his patrol. I know a leader who held a year long uniform competition. The SM was a lawyer and had a client who ran a limo service. The client wanted to do something to support his lawyers troop so.... the winning patrol went on a camp out in a limo loaned by the client. A bit over the top for sure but the scouts got into the competition and they were a well uniformed troop, at least for that year. We expect scouts in full uniform for for SMCs and BORs, CoHs, our annual banquet, and at camp for flags and evening meal at summer camp. Staff of other units set a good example there. Most generally comply. Meetings are another story with scouts often coming from other activities. We expect scout shirts for going to and from camp outs. By longstanding tradition repeatedly confirmed by the PLC, our scouts do not wear neckerchiefs. We do not punish scouts for not being in uniform other than postponing BORs if the scout is not in uniform. The switch back pants have made it easier to get scouts to wear full uniform. Scouts really hated the Oscar de la Renta pants (long pants more reviled than short). We (the adults) want to encourage the PLC to make uniforms a bit more of a priority in the next months to set a good example for the new scouts. I know that some troops will send scouts home for being out of uniform and that might be an approach your leaders could try... but they need to be consistent with all scouts in the unit. Asking the parents to take their son home and come back in uniform might get their attention. Without their support it will be hard to get their son to do anything he doesn't want to. I once asked my son why he would often go to scouts in less than a full uniform but wouldn't think of going to his kung fu class without the full outfit. His answer, "the scoutmaster doesn't make me do push ups for being out of uniform".