Hal_Crawford

"I have many donors in my FOS list that give to the BSA only because it does not allow homosexual scouts or scouters." Vol: I hope that is not true. I hope that people base their donations to scouting because of what it provides rather than who it excludes. If their giving is based solely on exclusion then they should give their money to the Klan or some other hate group. I would hope that the donate to scouts because of the activities, the leadership and the service to the community. If I thought that our number one reason for being is to exclude gays then I would quit this organization in a New York minute and never look back. Hal

No rule against it that I know of but this smells bad on a number of levels. How many threads have we seen where the poster's problems stemmed from the CC and the SM (or the CC and the COR or the CC and the DAC) being too close (husband/wife, good buddies whatever) and this left no recourse for a scout having problems with Eagle or other issues? When there are no checks and balances there can be trouble or at least the perception of trouble. The financial conflict has already been discussed. The discipline committee smells a bit funky as well. I don't see a hint of boy leadership in the post. In my experience, when the committee gets too involved in a discipline issue it ends badly; often losing a scout because he is either ejected (sometimes rightly but sometimes not) from the troop or he quits after being suspended. Helicopter parents are often quick to rid the troop of "bad influences" when it is someone else's kid. Overreaction is not unusual when group think is involved. Scoutmasters often have a bit more perspective. The thing that bothers me is that we have a CC who is trying to oust the SM and install her husband. The SM wants to "be a friend to the scout so there is trust between the Scoutmaster and scout". Sounds pretty reasonable. "Many adults feel..." How many? When I hear phrases like that I suspect that means "me and my husband (or wife)" and one one or two others. If the discipline issues are serious then give us some details so that we can see why the SM should go. If there is a really good reason then I would suggest either looking elsewhere for a SM or resigning as CC. There is too much chance of a perception of impropriety if the CC and SM are husband and wife. I can't help but suspect that there is a deeper agenda here. Frankly, Crafty's proposed coup d'etat seems a little too crafty for me.

Trevorium: I wonder if that is true. BSA maintained segregated scout camps in the south into the sixties. How much resistance was there? When many were resisting school integration were the Boy Scouts out in front on the issue? Did anyone predict a mass exodus if the scouts were forced to integrate their camps? I wonder...

Looking at the two side by side the biggest change seems to be asking for e-mail addresses for the references. There is a minor format change at the top of the first page and a note that the number of hours on the Eagle project are for statistical purposes only. Requirement 4 (POR) is reformatted and there is additional text pertaining to Lone Scouts. The number of the Eagle Project Workbook has been changed. I'm guessing this means that we will see a new edition of the workbook as well.

Vermont legislature legalizes gay marriage! So it's not just "activist judges" anymore.

In our council the letters are sent to the troop and given to the EBOR. We use unit EBORs with a guest from the District Advancement Committee. My understanding is that the scout is not supposed to see the letters. When I was CC I don't remember prescreening them before the EBOR. I think we opened them there. I have never seen an Eagle letter of reference that didn't glow, some seem to suggest that the scout walks on water and would surely cure cancer or world hunger. I can imagine a scout getting one bad reference but four seems strange. If this did actually happen I can see a cautionary tale. Never, ever, put someone down as a reference without asking them first. It is not just good manners, it is self preservation. If someone comes to me for a reference and I cannot give them a good one I tell them. I know that not everyone will do that but it is hard to imagine that four people would write bad references without giving the scout a clue. Pete, did this really happen? If so, tell us a little more about the circumstances.

Nothing refreshes a skill better than having to teach it. Make sure that your scouts know that every scout is an instructor. If you are teaching a skill to a bunch of new scouts have the older ones work one on one with them. Step back and be quality control.

Four bad letters of reference! Did this really happen or is this a hypothetical situation? It is hard to imagine a scout listing references that are not going to give a good recommendation. Was there no one at his school who saw any qualities in this lad? Was he trashed by his clergyman? It would seem that the EBOR can and probably should consider bad references especially when there seems to be such a consensus of inadequacy. They should not however let the letters outweigh their own perceptions. I am not sure what the EBOR should do if they are deferring advancement. Tell him to come back in a month with better references? Can they even tell the scout that there decision was based in part on bad references? Again, this is a really hard scenario to imagine.

Wow! That suddenly turned ugly. Oh, well.

Ozemu: The term we use in our troop for licking, rinsing and drinking the rinse water is "human sump". Wilderness soup sounds better. Hal

We had a scout transfer into our troop. According to his transfer records his old patrol had been.... The Flaming Marshmallows! Hal

Dean: That's pretty much the same thing that I have heard in the National Capital Area Council. There is also the desire to avoid appearing like a paramilitary organization. Hal

Congratulations to your seven. One local troop had 11 at once. Made for an interesting story in the Washington Post because of the rocky trail they all traveled. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/18/AR2008011803722.html This is a great story and calls into question the notion that the media never says anything good about scouting. Enjoy. Hal

I have a small two man (Eureka Apex 2) that I use as a solo. Last summer I did a six day trek using a Hennessy backpacking hammock. Now my little tent feels like a barn.

So what does this mean? Does this support the BSA or does it support the ACLU? Seems like it may leave the decision in the hands of the 9th or does the case just die at this point which means that the BSA loses? I assume that if the latter is the case then BSA will appeal to the SCOTUS who may or may not choose to hear the case.

Richard: Welcome to the forum. Hal

Note that the letters of reference do not have to be received before the 18th birthday. What the CC said about not sending out the reference requests is pointless. If the Eagle application hasn't been submitted yet he doesn't have the list of references to send them to. It sounds like he needed to say something to demonstrate that he is in control; that he and the SM have power over your son. Pretty pathetic really. Let us all know how the meeting turns out.

This link should do it http://www.boyscouts-ncac.org/openrosters/DocDownload.asp?orgkey=1988&id=41591 Good luck.

After posting last night it occurred to me that I should have been a bit more helpful in terms of what to do when confronted with a "great idea" like this. Whenever anyone wants to use open flame in a public assembly space the right thing to do is to call the "Authority Having Jurisdiction" (AHJ, usually fire marshal's office or fire chief's office) and say that you want approval to use open flame in a public performance. You need to fully and clearly describe exactly what you want to do. I suspect that with this particular effect, the conversation will end with a firm "no". If the conversation continues the questions asked will be things like "is there a sprinkler system?", "will all scenery and decorations be flame retardant?", "what precautions will be taken to separate the fire from the performers, audience etc?" and "how will the flammable liquids be stored when not in use?" How well and how confidently the questions are answered will make a big difference. If the AHJ is OK with the answers to the above questions (based on the YouTube video I can almost guarantee that they won't be) then they will give you certain requirements to obtain an open flame permit. They may require a fire inspection of the hall and/or a demonstration of the proposed effect. If they are still willing to issue a permit then they will set certain requirements that you are legally required to follow. They may require flame retardant treatment of all scenery, decorations and/or clothing. They may require that you have a rated flammables storage cabinet to store the materials before and after the "performance". They may require a "fire watch" (someone standing by with the pin pulled on the correct type fire extinguisher). Also note that putting out a fire with an extinguisher is not as simple as point and shoot, if a fire watch is required ask the AHJ to provide training in the proper use of an extinguisher. Some jurisdictions could actually require a fire fighter in full turnout to be the fire watch. It should also be noted that many (if not most) jurisdictions would consider the candles used in scout ceremonies to be open flame and subject to a permit requirement. It is up to individuals as to whether they want to open that can of worms. I have pulled open flame permits in several jurisdictions for things like candles (lots of candles) on stage or circus performers juggling torches indoors in close proximity to the audience. In one case (a candle permit) the fire department inspected a university theatre building and issued a citation for over 20 fire/building code violations that were unrelated to the effect. Most were minor housekeeping issues that were quickly fixed but some were for things like the placement of EXIT signs that had been in place for 25 years. Given how much the university had to pay to correct those violations I figure that was one expensive candle. One hint about dealing with the AHJ: It helps if the AHJ understands that you are every bit as concerned about the safety of the audience and performers as they are. It helps if they understand that you are fully willing to comply with any requirements including not doing the effect. On a personal note. I have been to the funeral of a 10 year old Webelo who died in a house fire. The memory of Webelos in uniform serving as pall bearers for their friend is something I will never forget. I do not ever want to see any family or group of kids to go through that for any reason, ever! Sorry for the long post.

As a professional theatre technical director this scares the bejeebers out of me. It is dangerous and illegal on several levels. Holy cr*p! Open flame in proximity of flammable liquids in a public assembly space. In proximity of children. As Packsaddle points out there are just too many things that can go wrong through failure to follow directions exactly or any sort of human error. The only concession to safety is to say to have a fire extinguisher "just in case". Maybe the writer should have mentioned the type of fire extinguisher. In all likelihood the CM is going to grab the nearest extinguisher at hand, a type A water model so common in schools and churches. So in Packsaddle's scenario someone tips over the "magic water" and it catches fire. At this point the adult standing by with the extinguisher jumps into action and spatters burning liquid all over the stage (cause it should have been a B or ABC extinguisher). At this point it is reasonable to fear that the burning liquid is now spattered onto the Cubmaster's uniform and/or the uniforms of some or all or the graduating Webelos. Hope they learned stop drop and roll in school. At this point an entire room full of cubs and family members are in a panic, stumbling over folding chairs and trampling each other as they try to get to the exits in a dark room. If this is a typical church hall the curtains on the stage are 20 or 30 years old and any flame retardancy has long since expired so the stage curtain could be on fire. How flammable are the other furnishings in the room? Don't ask! Are the fire exits all clear and clearly marked? You don't want to know. Think about the Great White night club fire in Rhode Island. Poorly planned (and unapproved) pyrotechnics and flammable furnishings combine with panic and poorly marked exits to kill about 100 people. This is no different. The warning at the end about "don't try this at home- only trained Cubmasters are allowed to perform this ceremony" is laughable. It should read, "don't try this at home kids, your Cubmaster is an idiot who has just needlessly risked your lives but you have been lucky enough to survive his stupidity, this time". Sorry if I come across as too blunt or too angry about this but these things should scare people and get them angry. Frightening! Hal

Gags: Well that's two of us that were in the same room. I'm the one who asked about the future of Lenhok'sin (probably , what this would do to future camping costs (they'll probably go up) and suggested that the dam was a shovel ready project. OK, I'm not shy. It looks like they are going to use everything on the west shore and more on the east than is currently in use. I understand that once upon a time Camp Baird was a regular scout camp and I think there was another near it so the east shore wasn't always as sparse as it is now. I get what your saying about the potential for a post apocalyptic feeling when the jamboree is not in town. I think the key is the trees. If they stick to the plan of keeping all the camp sites wooded it will probably not be all that noticeable since the council camping will be on one side and the bulk of the jambo will be on the other. To me it comes down to the trees. My biggest fear is that somewhere in the design process the the design team suddenly realizes that they have been overly optimistic about how many tents can be sited in the woods. Suddenly those trees could be viewed as impediments rather than features. BRRRMMMMM-POP-POP-POP (is that sound of a chain saw starting?) I fully expect that they will thin the forest in places but I really hope the resist any temptation to start clear cutting. If the jamboree becomes a lot of open space then the atmosphere could change a lot. I don't know if you have ever seen poster showing an aerial view of the reservation taken from somewhere south of the dam. The photo was taken in the first few years of the reservation. The east shore (Bowman) looks much as it does now, but Camp Olmstead on the west shore is bald as a baby's bottom; no trees anywhere near the lake. There is another photo taken more recently shows just how many trees have been planted since. All fast growth pine. My troop has camped at Bowman every year since it opened and I hope we will want to for many years to come. BUT if the atmosphere changes too much there are a lot of other fine camps in the region and I guess we will have to check them out. I for one am keeping my fingers crossed. Hal

Small world. I remember that there was a camp-wide turtle race. I also remember everyone in the dining hall chanting "Staff Turtle Soup!" I loved the camp experience and would have happily gone back again if we hadn't moved overseas. Still, I have to admit that I like the patrol method camping at Camp Bowman better. I think the scouts get more out of it than I got out of TR. Hal

SSScout: Yeah, I went to Teddy Roosevelt as a scout. Calvert County, MD on the shores of the Chesapeake Bay. Summers of 64 and 65. I think part of the deal with Goshen was integrating the scout camps. In the bad old days they ran segregated camps and Goshen put that to rest once and for all. Our troop has camped at the old Camp Wilson which is now part of Pohick Bay Regional Park. Hal

The Leadership Center will operate year round, I guess in the model of Philmont Training Center. Emb is right that the High Adventure component would be in WVA. There is also talk of a Scouting Museum and a "Gold Standard" Scout Camp that would be a prototype for new or upgraded camps nation wide. This last thing is the least defined and is probably a future development.

I went to a town hall meeting for scouters in the NCAC where they gave us details on the plan to relocate the Jamboree to Goshen Scout Reservation. They showed a conceptual plan of how the Jamboree can fit within the existing footprint of GSR. For those who are familiar with GSR it helps to understand that the reservation is larger than what is currently developed. The plan showed the bulk of the Jamboree on the west side of the lake. The council camps would condense from 5 camps to the 3 on the east side of the lake. The plan showed (and this is preliminary, it could all change) the Goshen Beltway moved outward from the lake to make more room for the camps and program areas. The beltway would cross the river further downstream removing from vehicle traffic from the dam. The leadership center and the central jamboree area would be where Camps Post (current admin area) and Olmstead are. They showed a big water front and the arena on the lake shore. Sub camps and activity areas spread north through the current Camp Ross and extending inland to the base of the surrounding hills. On the east side the council camps would also be used as sub camps and activity areas. They are looking at a number of ways to get scouts across the lake including a bridge at a narrow point near the current Camp Marriott. All the camps on the east side (currently Bowman, PMI and Marriott) would get bigger. One really positive note is that they plan to keep the trees. They are envisioning wooded campsites not like the clear cut sites of AP Hill. This should be good news for those of you who have griped about the heat at AP Hill. Between the higher altitude and the shade it will be a good bit cooler. GSR is near the I 81 and I 64 corridors and AMTRAK tracks are nearby. There is not a station nearby and AMTRAK only runs a couple of trains a week but there is still a possibility that the Jamboree and the Leadership Center might make it worth AMTRAK's while to build a small station and run some extra trains during the Jambo. They have not discussed yet what will happen to summer camp at Goshen during Jambo years. They do not expect the 2010 camping season to be impacted but 11 and 12 will certainly be affected by construction.