Hal_Crawford

Midsummer: You are leaving us hanging here. We are all waiting to hear how this saga has played out. We all hope the news is good. Please share.

Amen.

I'm sure that they could lurk here but I think we should remember that we are a small self selected group that usually doesn't have a unified opinion on much of anything except that we (with a few exceptions) see scouting as an important part of our lives and the lives of others. Frankly, I think they need to be taking a long hard look on why the numbers are declining and perhaps ask the heretical questions about whether the membership policies are hurting more than helping. Even if there was universal agreement with that in this forum (and there is not) it would be such a small voice that It would be ignored. The only way that voices will be heard on major issues is through the chartered organizations and the councils. On the other hand, in some small things this forum does get noticed by national. A month or two ago there was discussion of a flaming necker ceremony prompted by a U-Tube video of a very dangerous practice. Through this forum it came to the attention of the national Health and Safety Committee. Look at the Safe Scouting page: http://www.scouting.org/HealthandSafety.aspx Hal

Welcome to the forum. If you lurk around some of the threads you will see that no one ever gets a simple yes or no answer. Please don't be shocked or offended that you get not only the one word answer you sought but also a raft of opinions about what SHOULD be done as well as what CAN or CANNOT be done. It seems that the nearly unanimous consensus is that no, your CM can't force you to take any more scouts any more than he can force you to be a Den Leader. If all you want is a one word answer that validates your position then you have it and you can stop looking at the thread. I suspect though that you care about what is best and that's why you are still here. Perhaps you, the CM and the other DL should sit down and try to work out the best solution for everyone. You have very valid reasons for wanting to limit the size of your den. I suspect his reasoning is that this third Den has collapsed and rather than trying to revive it with out a willing/strong DL, he sees the opportunity to place in these boys in a strong and successful den. I think this is also a valid point of view. See it as a complement to what you have accomplished or see as being a victim of your own success. He obviously thinks that you are the best suited to handle the larger den. This may be overlooking that your den is working because it is an optimal size. I don't think you should take the boys if you feel you are being forced but I also think you should be open to considering what is best for all the boys. Talk amongst yourselves and perhaps the best solution will present itself. Whatever you do there was a great piece of advice in one of the previous posts. Ask for a Den Chief. An active, engaged Den Chief will not only make your life easier but will help prepare the Webelos for the transition to Boy Scouts. I strongly believe that Webelos that have a Den Chief are more likely to bridge to Boy Scouts and stay in scouting for the long term. A Den Chief will often spot and solve interpersonal problems between the boys faster and more effectively than adults do. Den Chiefs are God's gift to Den Leaders. Enjoy this time and perhaps you will think back on it in a few short years as you pin an Eagle medal on your son's shirt. You are not only helping him get there but also all the other boys that you influence as a Den Leader. Best of luck. Hal

>>There is a common misperception that lifegaurds must be "certified". For unit activities two "capbable swimmers" may be designated lifegaurds.

Yes, you can. See the leaders inspection sheet: http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34048.pdf It is a great way to show your history or current involvement in scouting. It is great to meet a scouter and see that he went to the same summer camp you did, one that has been closed for 40 years.

Like the man said, there are three kinds of lies: Lies, d*mned lies and statistics. Glad that Boys' Life put to rest the questions about whether President Obama is the BSA Honorary President. Too bad Scouter hasn't gotten the memo.

If my math is right that is a 16.5% decline in youth membership in 10 years. Can't find GWB's name in the 2000 or 2001 Annual reports. Has anyone had a scout earn Eagle in the last couple of months? Was President Obama's signature on it?

I agree.

A few years ago our troop canceled participation in a district event because of snow on the roads. Drivers and SM were concerned about whether the roads would be safe once they got out to the country. The irony was that it was the Klodike Derby. As one of our senior scouts said, "...wait, let me get this straight, we canceled the sled race on account of snow?" In retrospect it was the wrong call as other units that did participate had no problem but I respect the decision to err on the side of caution. And really, is erring on the side of caution ever really the wrong call.

Voyageur: A 10 year old can be a scout if he has AOL. Still, at 10 the difference is mostly the color of the shoulder tabs. Certainly does not make him an experienced paddler. Sounds like bad judgment to take this group to that section of the river regardless of the conditions. Hal

From what hear about property values in Detroit, BSA could buy the whole city, tear it down and build the jambo site there. Lots of highways so there is no problem with evacuation and the neighbors (Windsor,Ontario) would probably consider it an improvement. Better use than letting the Chinese buy it all.

This may be a bit of a highjack but since the topic is at least in part about family rules vs. troop rules I think the following article from "News of the Weird" is appropriate. http://www.newsoftheweird.com/archive/nw090510.html Of course I am talking about the first piece, the one about "consensual living" as a parenting philosophy. I just can't wait 'til these kids get to scouts. I think some may be among us already.

We have three ASMs in the gray area, all Eagles, all college students. They are only active during summer but they are a great help. One has gone with the troop to summer camp twice as a leader and will again this year. The second went on our high adventure trek last summer and the third will go to both camp and high adventure this year. They know the program and are well respected by the scouts. Aren't there a lot of Army/Marine NCOs in this age range? They can be trusted with a squad in combat but not a carload of boy scouts? That said, I agree that the CO can decide who will and who will not be leaders in their unit. Given what has happened in the unit in the thread from which this one was spun (scouter arrested for child molestation), it is understandable if they have overreacted and perhaps thrown the baby out with the bath water. I think this would happen to some degree in any unit in a similar situation.

I haven't seen much of a problem with cell phones in our unit. If the scouts have them on a campout they stay out of sight until we are on the way home and parents need to be called for pickups. My biggest concern is homesick first year campers. We haven't a cell phone lead to an early departure yet but last summer was the first summer that our council camp had cell coverage. I fear it is only a matter of time. We all have our war stories in that regard. A few years ago we had new scout and his dad come to camp (dad had just replaced me as CC of the troop). Kid lasted about four hours before he talked his dad into taking him home. I begged the dad to give his son 24 hours; I offered to disable his car but no, little Billy wasn't happy so goodbye Billy, goodbye dad. Billy never returned, and we were out a Committee Chair as well. Cell phones can only make this worse. Frankly, I liked being out of touch for a week; the cell tower was not a welcome improvement. Call me a Luddite (I don't own Birkenstocks, or even Crocs for that matter) but since I am attached to the Blackberry 24/7 the rest of the year, its nice to turn it off for a week.

The height/weight standards have caused a lot of confusion due to the poor wording. Most of us initially interpreted it the same as Eagle92 as meaning 30 minutes to a hospital. What it really means is 30 minutes to an "accessible roadway, fire lane, camp road etc." The FAQ now has this information. http://www.scouting.org/HealthandSafety/Resources/MedicalFormFAQs.aspx Note that H/W standard does not apply to the Jamboree though they suggest that it should be a consideration in determining overall risk.

"Why issue a handbook and then have it outdated the next year when a new requirement is added?" 1. Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't BSA have a history of doing that very thing? 2. Do we know for sure that this requirement isn't in the new Handbook? That said, this requirement doesn't sound realistic to me because of the expense and because most WFA courses are limited to 15 years old and up. That could create a de facto minimum age of 16 to become an Eagle. I doubt that would fly in some segments of the scouting community. It could work if BSA made it a requirement for Eagle, or even Life and if they found a way to make the course accessible to the average scout.

Our council offers a course called Backcountry Outdoor Leader Skills. It is a great next step from IOLS. I've pasted details from the NCAC site: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ If your unit is planning a Do-It-Yourself Ultimate Adventure BCOLS is for you. The BCOLS course is designed to provide Scouters exposure to skills useful in any backcountry activity. Its primary focus is preparing adults for backcountry activities that will not take place at locations supported by BSA infrastructure. BCOLS provides training not available in other BSA courses. The course is in two parts: one 6-hour classroom session followed by a two-day weekend outdoor session. Part 1 Addresses ways to effectively work with older youth. Covers the detailed preparation and planning that must be done before you go out including risk management. Summarizes the personal and crew equipment used for lightweight camping. Plans the weekend overnight session. Part 2 Participants will practice core leader skills for the outdoor program Leave No Trace, navigation (map & compass plus GPS), terrain awareness, expedition menu planning and food preparation, stove and stove maintenance, wilderness first aid issues, expedition health and hygiene, team building. Scouters planning to accompany a crew to any of the BSA-sponsored High Adventure Camps should also attend the High Adventure Training provided by the Council's High Adventure Committee. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I took this course last year and found it very helpful. I don't know if other councils offer this but if they don't it would be a good model to emulate. At the end we were all certified in Safe Swim Defense, Safety Afloat, Climb on Safely and Trek Safely. There was lots of excellent information about gear, land navigation (map, compass and GPS), camp setup and bear safety, weather, health and hygiene for a trek (but not much first aid; that is another class), trail food, stoves, LNT and a lot more. This all went way beyond the T21 level of IOLS. Got a ton of great handouts. Being a large council we have access to more resources than many, particularly in terms of nationally trained staff. That would be the biggest challenge to replicating this in other councils.

Merlyn: Scouter refers to adult leaders/members in scouting. Scouts are are youth members. I assume that you were a Cub Scout. If you were in fact an adult member then you would have been a scouter.

I misread your post and thought that you were the SM. I am sorry for the situation your father's issues have put you in.

Wow! Sounds like these guys need a refresher course in Safety Afloat and Weather Hazards... punctuated with beatings so that it sinks in.

Nike: The conduits you describe are called ducts. Ironically, the one thing that duct tape should not be used for is to patch ducts. http://www.consumerenergycenter.org/myths/duct_tape.html There are tapes specifically designed for patching ducts but they are different from what we call duct tape. They generally have an aluminized finish. BTW: The linked article has one error. Gaffers' tape is not the same as duct tape. Gaffers' tape is a fabric tape with a matt finish and is way better in that it sticks better and does not leave the residue that duct tape does. It comes in a variety of colors but black is the most popular in the entertainment industry. It also costs about three times as much as duct tape. When working on stage I would never use duct tape; when camping/backpacking I wouldn't use gaffers' Finally, in case your wondering, a gaffer is an electrician/lighting technician in the film industry.

I'm sorry that there are problems in your troop. Ultimately, the CO has the right to approve and fire leaders as they own the troop. I wondered if there is more to this than is mentioned in the post. I googled your troop and I see that there was a leader arrested for child abuse within the last two years. Not a young scouter but still I wonder if that incident might be coloring the CO's attitude toward the troop leadership? Did this happen on your watch as SM? Has the CO tarred you all with the same brush? Were there reasons that it might have seemed a prudent approach to clean house? Was there any connection between the "MySpace debacle" and issues surrounding the arrest of the leader from your unit? Is this really about advancement issues or is it the natural fallout from a really bad youth protection issue. I also question whether it is appropriate or ethical for you to post the name, CO and unit number of your COR? I have not used the name of the arrested leader as I do not know the status of the case and whether he has been tried or if he is guilty or innocent. I trust that you are not the leader in question.

If you want to know about the people against this then look at their website/blog http://www.savegoshenpass.com/ No mention of GLBT issues at all and I don't think that the would resonate in that particular area. The issues are environmental with a heaping dose of NIMBY.

Gern: Notice that there is no visible BSA trademarked insignia. No fleur de lis, rank insignia (unless that is an arrow of light on the sleeve?) no Boy Scouts of America strip. I don't think they would have much of a case based on khaki and the red/white unit number. OGE: That is excellent. How 'bout this. In the movie The Longest Day a German soldier raises his binoculars and looks through the slit of his bunker. On the front of the binoculars you can read "Made in Germany". Another show that trashes historical accuracy is the Showtime series the Tudors. Aside from the fact that they make history more entertaining through the use of sex and nudity they are constantly getting props and costumes that our way out of period. Most of the women's clothes tend to be from the Elizabethan period (a generation later and very different) and props are all over the place. Henry VIII's carriage has a suspension system from the late 1800s. Henry died in the 1540s. At one point he fires a flint lock pistol, 100+ years before its invention. In terms of plot line the combine characters in ways that make no sense... Mary Queen of Scots cannot be born because her mother marries someone other than King James of Scotland. Oh yeah, Henry is a handsome young stud at a point in his life when he should be forty, fat and falling to pieces. It's entertaining but wrong, wrong, wrong. While were on the subject (if you don't mind watching R rated), Kinsey starring Liam Neeson has a scene representing sex researcher Kinsey's youth as a Boy Scout. I suspect BSA was not consulted on the material there. Hooray for Hollywood.