Hal_Crawford

A few months ago we had a 15 year old former troop member rejoin. He had only been in the troop a few months, not yet a Tenderfoot, when he dropped out. He had gone to summer camp and earned Swimming MB. Handbook and all other advancement records were lost. I think it may have been friendship with active scouts that led him to return, I am not really sure. He quickly decided he wanted to be part of our summer high adventure trek. Of course he has to be First Class so that lit the fire. He just earned Tenderfoot, most of Second Class is done and he should earn First Class in the next few weeks. He was on a shakedown last week and did great. On the trip down the other scouts drilled him on the requirements for 2C. The thing is that the high adventure trek is the carrot that is motivating this scout to endure working on the lower ranks just a few weeks ahead of the 10-11 year olds.

Kudu: According to my reprint of the 1911 Handbook for Boys there were six ranks much as there are today. The order was different as Life was the first rank after First Class, followed by Star and then Eagle. I don't have it in front of me but if I recall all the required merit badges had to be earned for Life and the higher ranks were just for additional merit badges. Eagle was a total of 21 as it is today. For First Class you needed to know how to kill a mad dog and how to stop a runaway team of horses.

Xlpanel: For a teacher you play pretty fast and loose in lifting/rewriting someone else's work without attribution. I think that by most academic standards what you did to/with the work of Martin Niemoller would be considered plagiarism. The original was about the holocaust and your use trivializes the poem and its subject. That offends me.

"That's not a pack, that's a small CITY!" In parts of the Nebraska or Wyoming that's a COUNTY! Wow, what a huge pack! It might be reasonable to go to the parents about the change in registration fee and ask for an additional $5 per lad. It is not much to ask for and obviously the parents are pleased or someone would have spun off a new pack by now. I was a CM for a pack of about 50 and that seemed like a lot to manage. You must have a very well organized committee structure or serious sleep deprivation. Hal Do you feed into a similarly sized troop?

CA: You talk of digging in your couch and then you offer Blade some cheese. Tip to Blade, don't eat the cheese. Seriously, $15 a year is still quite reasonable. I will try not to think of how much is going to lawyers defending the membership policies. Hal

EV: The letter that they received was from the District. They are appealing to the Council which others have said is the appropriate next step and the required before appealing to National. From what I have read here I suspect that it will be reversed at the council level. My gut tells me that this SM has clout in the district but hopefully those at the council level give the boy a fair shake and that will be the end of it. If not, then an appeal to National is the next and final step. Hal

From yesterday's Washington Post, "Cheney Endorse Gay Marriage...". http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/06/01/AR2009060103266.html Related headline: "Rush Limbaugh's Head Explodes".

I'm going to try and pick a rose in this patch of thorns. I like the 100 Reasons to Join Scouting on the home page. The pictures really capture what the possibilities are and show how exciting scouting can be. I also like the video on the Youth: Begin the Adventure page. The new site seems easier to navigate (discounting the links that don't yet work) once you get past the "I am a..." part. Yes, they have a lot of things to fix and yes, they probably went live too soon but I think the site needed a new look and I for one am glad to see it.

We have a 15 year old who just made Tenderfoot. He joined when he was 11 but lost interest after a few months. He suddenly showed up a few months ago and rejoined just before the new scouts crossed into the troop. He decided that he wanted to go on our high adventure trek this summer but he has to be First Class. He had done a number of requirements and earned swimming MB before he dropped out but still has a lot of work ahead. This weekend we went on a shakedown and the other scouts would not let this guy rest. They drilled him on requirements on the two hour drive to the trail head. The crew chief said "you need to learn map and compass so you are the navigator". End of the outing the crew chief reported that the scout should be ready for SMC for Second Class at this week's meeting. Most of these guys joined at the same time and it is great to see the Star and Life Scouts make the commitment to get the prodigal scout to 1C so he can be part of the crew. A couple more weeks and one more shakedown and this guy will be 1C and good to go. Like GWD's story, it just struck me as the way Scouting is supposed to be. I am really proud of these guys. On top of it all, it was a beautiful weekend in the woods of West Virginia and the crew ran like well oiled machine. OK, we did get lost once or twice but that was because an adult got turned around and convinced them they were going the wrong way... a learning experience about trusting your map and compass more than a local "expert". Course my muscles are still feeling the extra ridge we had to cross but it was worth it. Life is good. Hal

"And for those of you who think the BSA is trying to run the large ones out, why do they still sell XXL uniforms? " For Council and National staff, duh!

Welcome to the campfire. Do you have an active PLC? It will probably be easier to convince a small group. Convince them that it is important to wear the uniforms correctly. Get their "buy in". As a group, decide how to encourage and reward uniform use. These things always (repeat, always) work better when it starts with a group of scouts, not adults and not a single scout. When older scouts set the he tone the younger ones will usually follow. Peer pressure can be used for good sometimes. If you get your patrol leaders behind you there is a very good chance you will be successful. Sounds like you're doing a great job. Good luck.

Gern: You raise an interesting point. How is the 30 minutes determined? Is it the time it takes a healthy person to walk out? That could be a mile or two. Or is it the time it would take a given crew/patrol to litter carry the heaviest member? And how does anyone figure that out? It seems that in the interest of being specific they have once again achieved vague. Regardless of what they say, I think that health risk factors are a part of this equation. If I have an MI two miles from the road I am probably a dead man. It has nothing to do with how far the crew can carry me and everything to do with how long it will take to get a defibrillator to me. Anything over ten minutes and my chances are slim. Now I way about 10 pounds over the ideal range. That increases my chances of having that MI. If I were over the maximum for my height (about 40 more pounds) then my risk of having that MI would be through the roof. I would have no business taking youth into the back country. I know that muscle weighs more than fat and some "highly trained athletes" might be excluded but that might be 1% of the people over the maximum. The other 99%, it ain't muscle.

To bridge on Mt. Etna, that's cool. Welcome to the campfire.

Barry: I think there is a distinction in that it is legal to possess Playboy magazine but the hardcore on the phone may constitute illegal underage material. The sexting is a huge issue in that it may be a felony to even possess. Something to think about when you are confiscating the phone is that now you are in possession of that material. A girly magazine, while wrong by the standards of the Scout Oath and Law does not carry the legal ramifications of the cell phone porn. On a lighter note. A few years ago a couple of us were doing a campsite inspection. On the bunk of an older scout was what appeared to be a "gentleman's magazine". I didn't recognize it but it appeared to be on the order of Maxim. Nothing dirty, just mildly suggestive. Another ASM and I stood there while the SM rounded up the two scouts that shared the tent. While we were waiting it struck me that something didn't look quite right. As the SM and the scouts returned I turned the magazine over to discover that it was a gag cover printed on the back of a Mad Magazine. Clearly the scouts had set us up to see what would happen. Maybe we should have reacted differently and taken it more seriously but we all had a good laugh and left it at that. We have had issues with language and inappropriate conversation which we deal with as the severity dictates but so far (knock on wood) no issues with porn.

Before this turned into a environmentalist vs conservationist rant someone asked about what the 17% represented. The figures are broken down on in the 1999 and 2008 reports. I calculated the percentage change from the total figures. It didn't look like there were hugh differences between cubs, scouts and venturers but I didn't do the math. http://www.scouting.org/Media/AnnualReports.aspx Interesting that BSA did not publish the numbers every year. Maybe they didn't want to publicize the decline in membership. One benign explanation of the numbers could be that they cracked down on councils that were inflating numbers. There were a couple of law suits about that in the last ten years. It may be that the 2008 numbers are real and the 1999 numbers were exaggerated. The real difference may not be as much as 17%. I doubt that changes in counting methods would account for the whole difference.

Our troop is definitely in the minority of those posting so far. We do go to one of our council camps, Camp Bowman at Goshen Scout Reservation. We do not feel obligated to our council but it has been a tradition and our troop has been there every year since the camp opened in 1967. Few things are constant in this world but in our troop we have the Scout Oath, the Scout Law and week one at Bowman. In my 10+ years with the troop it has not been questioned or put to a vote by adults or the PLC. We have 90% or better participation regardless of age so I think that speaks to the level of satisfaction with the camping experience. Last year we also had scouts participate in the Lenhok'sin High Adventure program at Goshen. There was concern that the backpacking trek would undercut attendance by senior scouts at Bowman but all those who did LHA also chose to do Bowman. We are seeing similar results this year. Bowman is somewhat unique in that it is a 7 day, patrol cooking camp with an emphasis on traditional scout skills. IMHO it is not a merit badge mill. I believe that view is shared by most who regularly camp there. For our new scouts, it is often the boot camp of the patrol method. Is it stale? Maybe but the scouts don't seem to think so. Are we missing out by not doing more variety? Maybe, but this has worked and the high adventure program is adding other opportunities. We will probably look at some different high adventure opportunities in the coming years. Lenhok'sin will probably disappear if the Jamboree gets built at Goshen. Scouts are talking about Philmont and the new high adventure site in WVa. Under the current plans Bowman will remain but who knows how that will turn out or if it will be so changed that we are forced to look for greener pastures. We don't know if it will even be open in Jambo years. For now, it works for us as it has for the last 42 summers.

"As for the 17% loss. What is said to be the cause? I know a lot of folks think they have the answer, but without in depth research, you cant know. To try and come up with ideas for fixing something that isnt broke only makes things worse. Fix the problem, not the assumption." Barry: I couldn't agree more which is why I did not attach any interpretation to the statistics. I have some opinions but they are based on people I know in my unit and my district. Opinions expressed inside the Beltway may not reflect the opinions held by anyone else anywhere. What I do think national should do is hire a reputable, independent research/polling company to conduct a nationwide survey of the families of scouts, former scouts and scouting age non scout boys and find out what causes them to join, not join, stay or leave. The survey must be constructed in a way to get real answers, not just those that validate BSA's current positions, preconceived notions, values etc. A well constructed survey could give national the information they need to make the decisions and changes that they need to survive in the 21st century but BSA has to be ready to accept the results, whatever they may be. It won't be easy and it won't be cheap but to do nothing could be fatal.

Hard facts. Look at the BSA annual reports for the last 10 years http://www.scouting.org/Media/AnnualReports.aspx If you look at the youth membership in 1999 it was 3,411,852 which represented a .8% increase over the previous year. In 2008 it was 2,832,636. That is a loss of 579,216 youth members in ten years. If I am doing the math right that is a 17% decline. (In another thread I previously had said 16.5% but I think I was in error). We have 3673 fewer units than in 1999. I do not believe that the youth population has declined in the last decade, certainly not by 17%.

I saw the title and thought it was some sort of a metaphor.

We do the 2nd class and 1st class swimming and rescue requirements at a local pool under the supervision of troop leaders who are not certified lifeguards. Life Guards are on duty but not directly involved in the testing. We don't do this a lot as most of our scouts do these requirements at summer camp. Hal

Here's an idea to run by your PLC. Sometime between now and next Memorial day, maybe in November near Veteran's day. Ask one of two of the veterans of your VFW post to come to a meeting and talk about their experiences. Let them hear what it was like to be an 18 year old wading ashore at Normandy or Tarawa; or to land in a hot LZ in Viet Nam. A couple of years ago some of our scouts got to listen to a vet who had been a Ranger on Omaha beach. They were fascinated by his account of that historic day. When the time comes for a parade then remind them that this is their chance to stand tall for the men and women that once stood tall for all of us. When you put a face on what it means to be a veteran, the scouts will likely do the right thing.

According to the FAQ the thirty minute rule means to an accessible road, fire road etc, so it means litter carry. The form does not say what it means. I can draw one of two conclusions. 1. BSA is based in Texas and Texans have a problem constructing sentences in standard English. Are former president was evidence of that. 2. They originally meant it the way many have interpreted it (30 minutes to an ER) and have now realized how dumb that was. Rather than admit their error they are now claiming that a more reasonable policy was what they meant all along. I would would go with conclusion #2 but neither speaks well of the folks at national.

You're right that the form does not say what the FAQ says it means. I suggest that everyone should take a copy of the the FAQ to their physical so that the doctor will understand the intent. I hope that BSA will revise the form to clarify what they mean by "ground transportation" and any thing else that is not clear or is just plain wrong.

If you are only going to resident camp then the weight chart probably does not apply. From the FAQ's: "Q. When does the height/weight chart apply? We have differing opinions in our unit/district. A. When the Annual Health and Medical Record goes into effect, the height/weight chart will apply in the following known adventure activities: When your travels take you more than 30 minutes off of an accessible roadway, fire lane, camp road, etc., where you float, walk, hike, bike, or otherwise go into the backcountry. Depending on the terrain and local conditions, this might be a couple hundred yards or a couple of miles into the backcountry. Most BSA high-adventure camps that include a backcountry component (ask them about their requirements before you go). Philmont Scout Ranch has this standard in place as an example. When your lodge, unit, district, or council requires it as part of a program. The height/weight chart generally would not apply (unless your lodge, unit, district, or council says it does) in the following: The majority of BSA resident camps, as most Cub Scout/Boy Scout resident camps (not high-adventure camps) have drive-up campsites and dont require packing in or out. Cub Scout programs. (Backcountry and high-adventure are not age-appropriate for Cub Scouting/) Wood Badge courses in a typical resident camp setting. Again, Philmont Scout Ranch has this requirement in place. The 2010 National Scout Jamboree. (However, please review the Be Prepared link to review all medical risk factors, including excessive body weight.) " You should be good to go.

I don't know that there is any official rule on the right way to fold the troop flag. You do not fold it in triangles like the US flag. What we do is it is folded lengthwise in half and then in half again like the US flag. Then it is folded in half the other way (fly to hoist) and this is repeated until it is a reasonable sized rectangle. We follow the same practice for all flags other than the national flag. The US flag goes up first and comes down last so that it is always higher than the troop (or state) flags. You may fly the troop flag on the same halyard as the US Flag. At camp we have been know to go a little crazy with out flags. In our troop site we erected a flag pole with a cross spar and three halyards, one to the top of the pole and one to each end of the spar. The US flag went to the top of the pole, Virginia Flag to the right end of the spar and the Arlington County flag above the troop flag on the left end of the spar. We haven't done that in a while as the flag pole rotted out and was replaced with a single pole and we misplaced the Virginia and county flags. The missing flags have recently been found so who knows. Go for it. It adds a ceremony to your outings and demonstrates pride in your unit.