Hal_Crawford

Sandspur: The idea Huzzar sitting on this scout's BOR is problematic for a couple of reasons. I think that every scout deserves to have an unbiased BOR. I believe the BOR members should be neutral. They are not there to prosecute the scout nor be his cheerleaders. They should be asking questions and listening to answers and basing there decisions on what is said in that room. If it were me, (and I was a CC for 5 years and chaired a bunch of EBORs) I would not want to sit on the BOR for a scout against whom I had a preconceived bias. The other reason is timing. Huzzar might not sit on a BOR for this scout for quite some time, maybe a year or two. However this is resolved it will be ancient history and to hit the scout with this issue (no matter how richly Huzzar might feel it is deserved) is not dealing with it in a timely manner. If I were Huzzar I would politely decline to be on a BOR for this scout. Again, my two cents. Hal

Kinda dumb requirement. I do not have a horn or bell on my bike and neither does my (grown)son who used to work as a bike mechanic and owns a couple of mountain bikes. From early on he learned to say "Passing on your left" whenever approaching pedestrians or other cyclists from behind. This practice has its limitations but is sufficient and if the pedestrian has there ipod cranked up (as so many do) even a fog horn won't get their attention. You can't buy a bike without reflectors. I've even seen stationary exercise cycles that have reflectors on the pedals because it is illegal to import pedals without the reflectors.

My two cents, tell the SM what you know and then drop it. I would not discuss it with anyone else in the unit. It is between the SM, the MBC and the scout. The SM will have to decide how to handle it and others should not second guess that decision. As a committee member you should probably not sit on any BORs for this scout. Hal

Avid's post assumes you are the SM. Is that the case? If not, what is your role in this? Does the MBC know? Does the SM know? Have the card and badge been presented yet?

I am really confused here. Is the person in question the current SM? If not, what position, if any does he currently hold? You say that the SM just became aware of the situation so I think that the person in question is not the SM but wishes to become one. Is the current SM planning to leave or this guy trying to organize a coupe d'etat? Hal

RichardB, welcome to the forum. That is a better standard than the Tulane/Camp Bairstow list posted by gwd scouter. By those standards I would never be allowed in camp as I frequently have congestion and that is often accompanied with a cough. Just a fact of life for me when there is pollen in the air. The fever is the key and the BSA list says fever and any of the following... rather than fever being just one of the menu items. Hal

Docrwm: Thanks for the tip. Actually, I just got an e-mail that he has been approved and has a number so that problem is solved. Still no DE for the foreseeable future and that is a bigger problem. Hal

One good reason to lean toward the lightweight is that even for car camping space seems to be at a premium. Our troop does not own a trailer though we will rent one from time to time. The SM has a trailer hitch and one of the ASMs does as well but his is a Honda crossover without a lot of towing capacity. I like chuck boxes for front country camping but they are becoming a logistical challenge. I am seeing more and more camp outs where there is not enough room for them. Most parents and leaders are driving Priuses, other small cars or smaller crossovers. In our troop the mini-van and the full sized SUV are now the exception. Nothing destroys the patrol method faster than the announcement that we can only carry one chuck box for the two patrols. Now this is in the DC area. Things may be dramatically different where you are. My advice however is to look at the available transportation before committing to the heavy weight approach. Hal

"The sash is only for formal events so tripping should be a non-issue". We got our son a 36" sash when he was 14 and was going to emcee the annual troop banquet/investiture. He proudly wore the slightly too large sash with the seven or eight merit badges he had earned by that time. After the banquet as the scouts were returning all the stuff (flags, candle log etc) to the other side of the church, he hustled through a door and the sash caught on the door handle, putting a tear in the back and ripping open the seam. We thought about replacing it but a scout is thrifty so we repaired it as best we could. Four years later at his ECOH no one noticed the repaired rip on the back of his sash but I knew it was there, a reminder of a young scout hustling to get things done.

I learned last night that our district is without a DE again. His wife got an offer in another city and I guess her salary trumped his so he moved with her and here we go again. Think we maybe had this guy a year. Found out because a new volunteer's application had disappeared into the ozone. He's a recent Eagle from our troop and I have been bugging him to take YP as soon as he has a member number. Seems his application is sitting in the vacant DE's mailbox awaiting signature. Reminds me of a Viet Nam war movie. Don't ask the new DE his name or where he's from... he may not last very long. Hal

We just conducted a TLT and EDGE was definitely in there. I don't have a problem with the concept, it isn't a bad teaching method but it seems a little too "flavor of the month" to enshrine in a Handbook that will probably be in print for 10+ years. When the folks at national get bored with that approach they will change the requirement but it will still be in the Handbook for another 5 or so years. IMHO they should have written the requirements to teach the skills but without referencing EDGE. The text could still present EDGE as a good training method but not necessarily the only method. I think my bias in this regard comes from watching management methods with catchy acronyms come and go in my workplace. They never seem to have that long a lifespan.

Quazse: I like that approach. I'm filing it away for future use. Thanks. Hal

Is the boy home schooled?

The trainer who is concerned about the transition to boy scouts is cheating the boy out of a year to complete Eagle. Unless he has a disability he will age out on his 18th birthday sometime in his junior year. Its a long way off but something to think about in deciding what to do.

My previous post may have sounded like I am not in favor of WFA. In fact I have taken it and think it is a very valuable course. There are two issues I see that are challenges in making it an advancement requirement. 1. Cost. Currently most courses cost $100 and up (way up in some cases). I was fortunate to take a course through our council that only cost $75. That is still to much to require of scouts in many parts of the country. BSA is working to bring down the cost but there is only so low it can go. 2. Age. Most WFA courses have minimum ages of 14 or 15. The ethical life and death decision making that is part of the course requires a certain level of maturity. This is why I thought it would be wrong to require it for Star. Many scouts hit Star at 12 or 13 and this would really put the breaks on their advancement. Incorporating WFA further along the path to Eagle would be a better idea. If I were the king that ruled the scouts I would consider doing one of two things. 1. If the course could be made truly accessible to all scouts I would make it a requirement for Eagle with BSA Lifeguard as a possible alternative. CPR would also be required because it is a prerequisite for both certifications. 2. If that was not feasible I would create a WFA merit badge with an Eagle requirement of Lifesaving, Emergency Preparedness or Wilderness First Aid. WFA MB would have at least 3 requirements. Earn First Aid MB, be trained and certified in CPR and in WFA from either the BSA or another recognized agency. They could goop it up with a couple of extra explains or demonstrates but that would basically be it. Finally, I would add a POR for Troop First Aider. To qualify the scout would have had to have completed the WFA requirement or MB. Duties would include serving as First Aider on outings and treks and to be the First Aid trainer for the T-2-1 first aid requirements. I suppose he could be required to use the EDGE method but I don't really care on way or t'other. But alas, I am not King of All Scouts. Lunch is over and I have to go to a meeting. Hal

EDGE is already being taught as part of Troop Leader Training (JLT the next generation). Hal

Thanks for busting that myth. It sounded screwy to me for a number of reasons and it is good to hear from a reliable source that it 'taint so. How about this for the LNT requirement? -Show evidence that you have left no trace. I am surprised that we have not yet seen flames about the EDGE requirements. Hal

How about this for the LNT requirement? -Show evidence that you have left no trace.

Someone posted a rumor a couple weeks back that Wilderness First Aid was going to be added as a requirement for Star. Can you confirm or dispel? Thanks, Hal

I have never been a pro but I have watched a number of them come and go in our district. Some have lasted a while and been promoted to bigger and better things and others left in a couple of months because the job or the pay were not what they expected. I think whether the pay is ok or not depends in part where you live. Here in the DC are the cost of living is high and a DE's salary doesn't seem to go far. The hours are long which may bother you if you value sleep and/or a social life outside of scouting. Some of the people you will deal with will be difficult. Read this forum for a while and you will see that scouters often have strong, passionately held opinions. Many have been doing this for decades longer than you have been drawing breath. At times you may find yourself between a rock and a hard place with the directions from your employer (the council) on one side and the opinions and attitudes of the volunteers on the other. Or those volunteers may feud with each other (again look at this forum for examples) and you may be drawn into the fray. Some will threaten you with dire consequences like withholding their FOS contributions if you don't take their side. This is not for the faint hearted or a person who is easily angered. You will have to be clear headed, cool and collected (and really diplomatic) to navigate through these rocky shoals. You will be expected to be a living example of the scout oath and law even if those around you aren't. You will spend a lot of time talking to clergy. As Eagle 92 suggested, look at your Facebook page and see if you are going to fit it. I don't mean this from the standpoint of sanitizing your pages but rather asking yourself are you the kind of person who will be able to live the scout lifestyle day in and out. Don't expect the job to be scouting as you knew it as a scout. I think others will agree that it is nothing like being a patrol leader, SPL or even a Scoutmaster. Look long and hard at what the job is and try to keep your expectations realistic. Whatever you do, be conservative in your finances. Your first salary may seem huge compared to the part time jobs that you had in HS and college. Budget really well. Rent, car payment and insurance can eat up a paycheck in a heartbeat. Wade rather than jump into financial commitments. Don't think you know how much you are making until you have seen your first paycheck; taxes, health insurance, and retirement seriously reduce your check. I am not trying to scare you away from being a DE. It may be the perfect job for you. Look at yourself, look at the job and be realistic. The fact that you asked the question shows you are thinking this through and that is a good sign. Remember that entry level jobs are rarely ideal so even if you choose something else you will probably find it a struggle at first. That which does not kill you makes you stronger. This could be the start of a great career in a great program. Good luck and best wishes whatever you decide. Hal

Trevorum: I don't have it with me but if I recall it was to wrap your arm with a heavy coat and while the dog is chomping on that club it with a heavy stick. At least the requirement was to describe rather than demonstrate. The 1911 Handbook is available from Scoutstuff.org and makes for interesting reading. In addition to the usual stuff it includes requirements for all merit badges available at the time. Hal Hal

In Virginia the tests are called the Standards of Learning tests, appropriately abbreviated SOL. My son and I graduated from the same high school, 34 years apart. It was and still is a very well rated high school. Much more homework is required of today's students and there is the emphasis on standardized tests. More courses are required and it is expected that a significant number should be advanced placement. An "advanced diploma" is considered basic. If I were to apply to my alma mater, the University of Virginia today with the grades I had in 1971 I doubt that they would give me the courtesy of a reply. I would be lucky to get into a second or third tier school. This would seem to imply that today's students are so much smarter than we were but I doubt that many on this forum would reach that conclusion and I don't buy it either. IMHO the problem is that education is being run by politicians rather than educators. Politicians decided that more homework should be mandated. This promotes busy work and rewards the organized drudge more than the curious mind. Politicians decided that there should be standardized tests and that not just students but teachers and schools should be judged by the results. So teachers teach to the test instead of teaching how to think, how to question, how to reason and how to learn. To monitor and document compliance with these political mandates the schools are putting more and more resources into administration that should be in the classroom. I doubt that the best teachers I had in school would be interested in teaching in today's academic environment. I don't have an answer as to how to fix it, I wish I did; I wish somebody did.

Eamonn: I understand that the challenge of having enough counselors in rural areas is why there are not national rules putting a lot of limitations on merit badge counselors. We don't have that problem. Our district covers the smallest county in the US (Arlington, VA) and an adjacent town (McLean, VA) with a combined population of about 250,000. The counselor list is really long with multiple choices for most merit badges. While some counselors limit themselves to scouts from their own troop there are still plenty to go around. A limit of 5 per counselor should not pose a hardship here. The district requires the units to update the the unit lists every two years but I suspect that the units often do not check the lists they submit. When my son was working on Eagle he called a couple of counselors who were on the list but no longer active. On a related note: At an RT there was a discussion of finding counselors. Scouts most frequent complaint was that counselors who didn't return phone calls. Counselors most frequent complaint: scouts who did not clearly say their name and phone number when leaving a message. Funny how that works out. Hal

Eamonn: Not to one up you but we had a merit badge counselor from our troop who signed up for 85 merit badges. He was a bit of a renaissance man and showed some qualifications for all of them. Everyone thought it a bit much but no one could find a rule against it. No one felt that they had the authority to say "no" (I was the CC and I should have been the first to say it). This was the kind of guy who would not accept no unless you could show him the rule and maybe not then. Problems eventually emerged. He signed off on something like 15 merit badges for his son, some scouts complained that he had signed off on requirements they hadn't done. It was alleged that merit badges were completed in less than required time. It caused a lot of issues and arguments on the district level. Ultimately, the district dropped him as a MBC and instituted a rule that no MBC would be listed for more than 5 badges. Committee chairs were told that we were the first line of defense against the overreaching MBC candidate and that we would be supported by the merit badge dean. We also learned that the SM was the gatekeeper for merit badge work. No scout should begin work without a blue card signed by the SM. The SM can and should dictate which merit badge counselor the scout should work with. This is all sounds easier than it is when you have an ambitious parent who wants to see their son reach Eagle... soon. At a district RT there was a discussion of who should counsel merit badges and specifically should a parent counsel his or her son. One of the scouters said something like, "we're inside the Beltway and most of us either work for or with the government. We should all understand the concept of 'avoiding the appearance of impropriety'". I thought this summed it up rather well. Who loses when there is an "appearance of impropriety"? That's easy, the scout. At the same RT another Scoutmaster talked about a reunion of his troop's Eagles. 20 some years before a previous SM in the troop had signed off on many of the merit badges for his two sons. At the reunion this scouter overheard other Eagles from that generation talking about how these two guys had not really earned their Eagle awards. Was it true? Who knows? It very well could be that those two boys worked twice as hard to satisfy their dad but to the other scouts it just looked wrong. Rightly or wrongly and whether they know it or not, these two men's Eagles are tarnished in the eyes of their peers. That's sad and so unnecessary. It never would have happened if the operative question had been "does it look right?" rather than "is there a rule against it?". Maybe that is the lesson we should be teaching our scouts when we talk about the Scout Oath and Law. Hal

I was thinking about it reading the other posts. There is something very special about a guy that joins scouts at 13, 14 or 15. The bulk of the scouts bridge from cubs and don't so much make the choice to stay in scouts as they don't make the choice to quit... many are just going with the flow 'cause dad wants him to or their friends are in it or it is just a habit. Some drop out in the first year but many rise to the challenge and turn out to be fine scouts and gain from the experience. They are patrol leaders at age 12 or 13 and by 14 or 15 they are Life Scouts with their eyes on Eagle. Others are still coasting at 15, going to meetings and the occasional camp out with no particular interest in leadership or advancement. These guys rarely show up if the camping is more than a hundred feet from the parking lot. They will spend a week at summer camp and maybe earn a merit badge or two but they will rarely sign up for COPE or climbing and high adventure is just too much adventure. The perpetual First Class scout who has forgotten much of the what he learned to get to that rank. Some might get a last minute burst of enthusiasm and go for becoming a "deathbed Eagle" but most will just coast. I wonder if they will coast through the rest of there lives without any spirit of adventure or excitement in their lives. On the other hand, an older guy who shows up at a scout meeting and says he wants to join is making a very conscious decision to choose scouting. He is choosing to come do something that many of his peers may not think is cool. He is choosing to start with kids considerably younger and to try and catch up to those his own age. That takes dedication and a certain amount of guts. They are worth the extra time that a leader may have to take to get them up to speed.