Hal_Crawford

Chug: 40 for a week at camp? That is an amazing bargain! The best price for a week at Cub camp in our area is US$255. Not sure today's exchange rate but safe to say that is more than 3 times what you are paying. What the atheists are paying would actually be a fairly reasonable price for a non-scout camp in the US. Many charge over US$1000/week! Scouting is a bargain! As to the atheist kids going to camp? Good for them! Every kid, regardless of faith (or lack thereof) deserves to experience camp. Hope your son has a great week at camp. Hal

Wayne: Not sure that this needs to be a new thread but I am glad that you have weighed in again. My reading of the river information posted at the Bridger-Teton NF website is that if a rafter knows what they are doing and knows the river (as you clearly do) that this hazard is easily avoided by staying to river right. Is this the case? One of the articles describes the victim as someone who has been doing whitewater rafting all his life. I wonder if this is a case of someone who could have gone safely past the hazard but did not do the required planning, scouting etc or is it a situation where, in the given conditions (high flow) where the entire section should have been avoided either by a portage or by saying that the conditions are too dangerous to go on the river today. Your thoughts? As you may have noticed your e-mail touched off some serious discussion about safety standards for whitewater and that is a good thing. None of us want to put scouts at risk but too many of us do not know our own limitations and when to get help. BSA is trying to make improvements in those areas. Perhaps your influence will start the ball rolling toward improvements in the area of whitewater. Many thanks for your posts, for your efforts in the attempted rescue and for what you do on the river.

If it is not for uniform wear than why the h*ll do the sell the d***ed patch? Answer: because they can. I wore the Totin' Chip on my right pocket flap as a scout (c1964) and our scouts where it now. Doubt that I could convince our SM that it is wrong or that our scouts should stop wearing it. I don't think that there is a scout patch that an 11 year old would wear more proudly than Totin'chip because it comes with the privilege wield sharp objects. What could be cooler than that? Hal

Eagle 1982: Tell that to the Lutheran (Missouri Synod if I recall) minister who was almost defrocked (probably not the right word) for participating in an interfaith service at Ground Zero. Some Protestant denominations don't even play well with other Protestants. Our scout camp offers Catholic and Protestant services in the camp and there is a reservation wide (5 camps) Jewish Sabbath service. Attendance is optional and most from our troop choose not to participate. The reservation chaplain is a retired Monsignor. For a while the Jewish services were led by a guy named Bishop. I have been to, in fact I have conducted Mother Earth/Great Spirit/Mountains and Trees services to try and do something that would work with the religious diversity of our troop. Lately I have come to agree with you that they address a whole different belief system and are not a valid substitute for our scouts' various religions. I also wonder how American Indians feel about us co-opting and/or parodying their belief systems for our "interfaith services". There are no easy answers to any of this. Oh, did I mention that one of our scout's parents recently told me that she and her son are Pagans? They attend a Unitarian church which accepts them and their beliefs. Where does he fit into this equation? Maybe the mother Earth service is closest to his belief system. My grandmother (who was born around 1885) once told me that in polite company you never discuss religion or politics. Smart lady. Hal

Would you include in your discussion the fact that BSA policy precludes a scout from being forced to attend a church of a faith other than his own? More to the point, that he is within his rights and you are in the wrong? That the choice of service is based on the majority of adult leaders is just wrong. Your troop has created an atmosphere of group coercion that is not in keeping with BSA policy or the Scout Law (as it does not respect the beliefs of others). If you cannot accommodate the religious preferences of all the scouts, including the choice not to participate, then you should drop the policy of attending services altogether. Does your Presbyterian CO know that you are coercing Protestant youth to attend Catholic Mass? What would you do if a Jewish or Muslim boy wanted to join your troop? Could you accommodate there beliefs and obligations as well? Would you expect them to attend what a Jewish friend of mine called "a ceremony of ritual cannibalism"? I Let me put it a different way, how would you and the other Catholic scouters, scouts and their parents respond if the CO mandated that the troop be required to attend Presbyterian services on camp outs? That would make more sense than the troops current practice. I would suggest that the troop committee should discuss the unintended consequences of this policy and revise it before there is a real problem. YIS, Hal

Our troop is chartered by a Baptist church but has no Baptist members as the congregation has very few if any young people. This may change as they have a new pastor who is working to attract young families to Our SM (an Episcopalian) believes that as a "Scout is reverent" that we should have some form of non-denominational service on camp outs. Among our scouts there are (to name a few) Catholics, Episcopaleans, Lutherans, Unitarians and some of our most active members are Jewish. We have at times had Greek Orthodox and Muslim as well. There isn't a lot of commonality among these scouts. Our service is heavy on the scout law with an Irish Blessing (May the road rise up to meet you...) and a chorus of American the Beautiful. An alternate service that we have used on back country outings draws on Native American culture. Lately I have become concerned that the non-denominational services lean towards casting the Boy Scouts as its own sect with a deity (The Great Master of All Scouts), a creed (The Scout Oath and Law) and with some Native American overtones. Like True Believer I am not sure which way we should go with this. Unlike his situation, our Troop Committee is not the driving force and I suspect if they took a vote on it they might want to move away from religious observations altogether. I am sure the non-Catholic parents would go ballistic if we took them all to Mass just as the Catholics would be upset if we went to a Protestant church or Jewish Temple and the Jewish parents would be upset if we took their sons to any Christian church. I would hate to see a holy war break out in the troop. Have Catholic Churches done away with the 5 o'clock Mass? Good luck, Hal

That is an outstanding idea! I am about to change out the red patches for the green on my summer shirt and I will get some tape and try that. I know that it will work better than what I have been doing. Thanks, Hal

We have a Vietnamese troop and pack in our district and I understand that it is common in other areas as well. Scouting was big in South Viet Nam and they use it here to help maintain cultural identity. I have never seen anyone top them at scoutcraft. Their SM showed me a picture of a signal tower they lashed together at Camporee in South Viet Nam, circa 1964. It was a bamboo replica of the Eiffel Tower and judging by the size of the of scouts standing on it I would say it was about 50' tall! We also have a couple of African American troops chartered by churches in the Black community. There are several LDS units as well. There have been efforts to organize an Hispanic troop in our district but this has not yet been successful.

And Dick Cheney got blamed, and Don Rumsfeld got blamed and various generals and staffers got blamed and even some enlisted reservists at Abu Grahbe got blamed. Truman had a sign on his desk that said "The Buck Stops Here". He got what leadership was about. If the cook screws up the dinner, if the navigator gets the patrol lost, if the guy who was supposed to do cleanup doesn't do his job, it is the Patrol Leaders responsibility. It may not be entirely his fault, it may not be his fault at all but it is his responsibility to solve the problem. The PL who understands this is really a leader. A leader knows or learns the strengths or weaknesses of those he leads. The president gets to choose his SecDef and his VP. He is responsible for their actions. The Patrol Leader does not necessarily get to pick who is in his patrol and he can't (and shouldn't) really have one permanent cook while another is relegated to permanent cleanup. But the good PL knows that Ron is not a good cook so he is ready to provide extra support or supervision the night that Ron is the cook. If John is a lousy navigator then he needs to get practice but the PL know that he better be extra alert to signs that the patrol has lost the trail and be ready to work with the navigator to get back on course. He makes sure that both guys have the opportunity to learn and improve. If Dick is perpetually lazy and bossy and will resist doing cleanup then the PL has to figure out how to get him to do his job when it is his turn. I am impressed with a youth leader when he takes responsibility for his mistakes and the mistakes of those he leads; when he recognizes the successes of those he leads; when he recognizes the weaknesses of those he leads and tries to build those scouts abilities. I am impressed when a youth leader learns that you praise in public and correct in private. It is great if the Patrol Leader has mastered all the scout skills but he doesn't have to be the best at them in the patrol. If he recognizes that Tom is a better navigator or Phil is better at starting a fire (and he is not afraid to admit it) then he will know where to turn when the patrol is lost or the when a fire needs to be lit in the rain. Personally I do not think that I was born a leader but I think in the end I have become a pretty good one. I didn't stay in scouts long enough to learn it there. As an adult I have had the privilege of working for a couple of very good leaders who taught me a lot. I also learned what not to do from a couple of really awful leaders. One of the things I think that helped was gaining the confidence to lead. I think that is something that scouting can provide and it worked wonders for my son who as an adult is an excellent leader. Hal

I faced a similar dilemma when I was the only one even remotely willing to step up as Cubmaster. Previous CM had been retired and did it all... not committee involvement. I did not have that kind of time. Having a brief hostage situation (Meet my demands or the Pack gets it) I said that the only way that I would take the position was if there was an active pack committee to share the load. A great organizer stepped forward to be CC and we kept the pack going for a year and handed it over to others when our sons crossed over. I may have the same challenge again. SM is making mumbling noises of stepping down and no one else is interested in taking over. Though son is grown and there are no others, the Boss really does not want to share more of me with scouts. If I agree to do it I will have to ask for LOTS of support from committee and ASMs. If you go that route (and I am not saying you should) start looking for/grooming a potential replacement right away so you have an exit strategy if needed. Good luck, Hal

"The adult leadership seems to have absolute rigid flexibility with being strict on our uniforming policy. " Huh?

Kahuna: It is listed on the Bridger-Teton National Forest website (http://www.fs.fed.us/r4/btnf/teton/river/srhightlights.shtml) as a Class 5 rapid at high flows. At those times it is described as the most dangerous on the river and the site of a number of drownings. That was easy to find. I have not been able to find any reports of the incident described by the OP. Waynejh, can you give us any further details? Hal

Nike: I agree with your assessment regarding communication. FWIW when both the scout and adults have erred to a similar degree, I believe the outcome should favor the scout. Hal

Welcome to the campfire. What does your troop want? It is hopefully a boy led troop; what do the youth leaders want? I would suggest bringing this to the PLC and encourage them to decide on a uniform policy. Give them the reasons why you think it is important and see what they do. If they establish the policy, the scouts may actually follow it. Our unit has the same issues and I consider it a small victory that the Patrol Leaders insist that the scouts tuck their uniform shirts into their non-uniform gym shorts. We win some and we lose some but are chances are better if the scouts feel that they are calling the scouts. Hal

"Copy what the other troop is doing, they must be doing something right that you are not." I disagree. What is right for that troop might not be right for the rest of your troop. Stosh does not indicate the size of his troop. If there were thirty scouts in the troop and 5 left the question is are the other twenty five happy with the way things are? Those guys might not want to see there troop become a clone of the troop down the block. I would start with your PLC. Ask them what they think is going on. They probably know a lot more about the scouts reasons for leaving than you do. Ask them what, if anything they think should be done to retain scouts in the troop. Good luck, Hal

Does your unit have a Unit Commissioner? This is a district level volunteer who is there to help units to be healthy and grow. This person might be able to work with your CO and unit leadership to get better organized. If you don't know then a call to your DE should provide some guidance. My son was in a pack with no active committee, CM did it all. He was also registered as COR. He liked it that way and it worked OK but it was not good for the long term health of the pack. When he left I became CM for my son's last year in the pack. I knew I could not do what he did. I was fortunate that there was someone willing to be the Committee Chair and to organize an active committee. It was a rocky year as we learned by doing but it laid the foundation for the next CM and CC. Hal

I would expect that at this time of year much of the council efforts are focused on opening summer camps and such. Volunteers may also be getting units ready for camp or heading off on family vacations. It's no comfort for the scout or his mom but it is quite likely the reality. Hal

My two cents: That your son is with friends is way more important than your perception of the relative quality of the Pack program. Pitch in and try to make things better where you can but do not try to separate your son from his buddies. We all have to step back from time to time and remember it is about the boy's happiness, not ours. Try to make sure that everyone is trained, that will help. The current leaders are probably not using all the resources available. Does your district have Cub Scout Round Tables? They can be a great chance to meet other scouters and learn from their successes and mistakes. I looked at your council website (http://www.centralnccouncilbsa.com/index.html) and it is unclear but check with your DE (Bob Weatherman, if the website is up to date) and perhaps he can point you in the right direction. I had some similar feelings when my son crossed over into Boy Scouts. Two things I learned: 1)The troop was the right fit for my son and that is all that mattered and 2)when compared to all the other units, not just the super troops, our troop was actually pretty good. Would things have been different in a larger troop? Would my son have stayed interested, become a Patrol Leader? An SPL? An Eagle? I don't know but he did all those things in the troop that at first glance didn't look all that good. Along the way I became a Committee Chair and sat on a number of Eagle Boards. Later, as an ASM I helped with new scouts and more recently I helped add a high adventure component to the troop which I think has really improved the program for the older boys. Do I ever wish that my son had chosen the super troop? No, not for a minute and neither does he. Is that troop right for other kids? Of course it is. Hope this helps. Best wishes for you and your son on the trail ahead. Hal

The problem with the subjective nature of this requirement is that it can be used arbitrarily to impede a scout that a leader does not like for whatever reason. When I first joined our troop and became a committee member there was a scout that one of the ASMs (an oldtimer active on the district level) did not like. I think it had to do with association with an almost Eagle from our troop who had gotten into serious trouble with the law. At any rate this scouter was telling everyone who would listen that the scout could not earn Eagle because he had not been active in the troop for a full six months as a Life scout. The scout had missed about 8 meetings in a row and had not gone to camp with the troop. Why? Because he had been working as a counselor at one of the Cub Scout camps at the same reservation as our camp. I do not recall his POR at the time but it was probably instructor or Guide. Whatever it was the SM was satisfied with his fulfillment of the responsibilities of the position. My feeling as a new CC was that he had represented our troop while at camp and that he had encouraged some Webelos to give our troop a look. While he may not have been a physical presence in our troop during that time, he wore his uniform (with our troop number on it) for six days a week for six weeks of camp and was actively engaged in the mission of scouting. The scouter who objected to the scout was not in a position to do anything but exert influence and both the SM and I took it under advisement and then dismissed it. My point is that a subjective judgment can by definition differ from one person to the next. It can be positive or negative; it can be fair and on point or it can be based on bias or a grudge. I can imagine that (and I am not trying to pick any fights here) that Kudu, Beaver, Packsaddle, Ed and I could all look at this requirement and each apply it differently, perhaps to the same scout. Would that be fair? Hal

That's a keeper. Hal

I'm sure that many of you saw that last week the BSA awarded its two millionth Eagle. My son visited yesterday and fixed dinner for Father's Day. I mentioned the above and he said "really? Only 2 million? It seems that everywhere I go I run into another Eagle scout". Yes, in 97 years there have been but 2,000,000 Eagles; my son and 1,999,999 others. I cannot say that I am one of that number(anybody know how many have earned 2nd Class? I didn't think so) and neither was my father who according to his US Army service record was a Life scout in Troop 4, Indianapolis, Indiana. Interestingly, though not Eagles both my father and I returned to scouting as dads and scouters and both of us continued after our sons were grown. The pull of scouting is sometimes stronger than the pull of Eagle and it can us back long after we have thought it part of our past. YIS, Hal

Ouch!

There is a piece in this morning's Washington Post that seems appropriate to this thread. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/06/19/AR2009061901549.html It is not about scouts but rather girls sleep-away camp but it still seems like the kind of parental thinking that we all encounter.

I doubt that Sundays would work in our area. Scouts, especially high schoolers are often concerned if a camp out runs late into Sunday afternoon as they always seem to have a lot of homework, projects etc. due on Monday. Friday may not be date night for mom and dad but it eventually may be date night for older scouts. Our troop meets on Thursdays, few sports conflicts except JV football. Thursday was chosen because when the troop and church were young the church would only turn on the heat for Sunday services and Wednesday choir practice. The building would still be warm on Thursday from the Wednesday choir practice. Thursdays are a little problematic. Seems too close to weekend camp outs. We're the only troop in our district that meets on Thursdays so that night is when the district roundtables are held. Vast majority of scouts and parents favor keeping Thursdays and changing would be problematic with the CO as the room is booked for other uses. We also have an AA/NA chapter that meets two flights up at the same time as our meetings. No real problem with it though it sometimes means that at the end of our meeting the scouts will have to run a gauntlet of smokers in the parking lot. Occasionally one of the friends of Bill will get the wrong room and look really confused when he walks into a room full of Boy Scouts.

That video caught my eye the other day. I noticed that the credit said Eagle Scout but I assumed he was a grown up professional who is an Eagle (once and Eagle always an Eagle). That it is the work of a youth member is amazing. Very polished, very well edited, very professional. Great choice of music. That young man has talent and I hope he has applied to/been admitted to a first rate film school. The link didn't work for me either. Try it without the extension and it seems to work. http://www.scouting.org/Youth