Hal_Crawford

Vol: I think you may be mixing two different usages of the word homosexual. There is homosexual the noun which generally refers to people who might call themselves gay or lesbian; people who attracted to the same sex instead of the opposite sex. Then there is homosexual the adjective which means same sex and would be used to describe acts as being between the people of the same gender. The distinction that I see is that most of the concerns we have in YP are about homosexual acts but many if not most of these molestations are not committed by homosexuals (in the traditional sense). They are committed by pedophiles and they are an entirely different animal. According to what I learned in YPT and what I have read elsewhere the pedophile is most likely to otherwise heterosexual and usually married. Why someone can live as an adult heterosexual and want to have sex with boys is beyond me but they do. When the married father of three molests a boy it is a homosexual act but he is not someone who is identified as a homosexual. That difference in the uses of the word can skew the statistics and I think that is the case with the ones you cite. Pedophiles are the reason that we have to have Youth Protection in spite of the ban on gay members. Truth be know, parents should have no more reason to trust you or me with their sons than they would a gay man of otherwise good character. I add that last caveat because there are many people straight and gay who are bad role models and should not work with youth. I wish that we lived in a world where everyone could be trusted not to harm children but we don't so we have YP training and policies to keep bad things from happening. Hal

I wondered where you got the "tic" you added to the Patriot Act, then I saw you stole it from the Democratic Party. Its the Patriot Act and the Democratic Party not the other way around!

Has your PLC considered planning fun activities for Sundays? One way to deal with this is to plan backpacking outings. It is harder to leave early when the car is five miles away. Also, when we backpack there is a firm rule that no one arrives late or leaves early because they have to carry their share of the patrol gear. You might suggest to your SPL that this issue (but not the specific scout) should be discussed at the PLC meeting. They might come up with a solution. A policy about leaving early (or just about any troop issue) will be better if it comes from the PLC rather than from the adults. If Dad doesn't like it he should be reminded that it is a boy run troop. Beyond that I would discuss this at the scout's next SMC and suggest that you are not ready to support him for a BOR. Make sure the CC and/or advancement chair knows of the issue and understand your possition. You can't prevent the scout from advancing in rank as SMCs aren't pass/fail but the BOR can. The success or failure of this approach depends on your relationship with the CC, AC and/or committee. Hopefully, the potential BOR members have heard an earful about this boy from their sons. Good luck. Hal

My experience has been that corporations (including non profits like BSA) rarely trim the upper echelon. The just get by with less at the lower to middle pay grades. Generally, its the guy at the top who decides to trim the fat and (big surprise) he never sees himself or those close to his level as fat. There might be a show of downsizing upper management but that is often the elimination of an already vacant position. Hal

"Somehow I doubt that after 97 years, that GSUSA is going to vanish without a trace." The Scouting Association (formerly known as Boy Scouts) in the UK is now co-ed at all levels (though in is a unit option and not all units have chosen to admit girls) and yet the Girl Guides (equivalent to GSUSA) is still going strong. If the BSA ever admits girls into the Scout and/or Cub levels, I suspect that GSUSA will continue to exist as well. Someone posted a couple months ago that admitting girls was under discussion. There was no proof then either and I am really skeptical that the folks in Texas would even think about such a move. Still, National never ceases to amaze me. It would be interesting to hear something that was more concrete than I heard it from someone I who is really well connected... Hal

OMG, your right! How did all miss that? It will be interesting to see how long that copy stays up on the site. Hal

I think teasing and humiliation are in the eyes of the recipient. There are things that I can say to one friend that I cannot say to another. The first would take it in jest and probably fire one back at me but the other would be deeply wounded. You need to know who is who, what their threshold is and be ready to apologize profusely if and when you go too far.

And prayers for the Webelos as well. Younger scouts can get very attached to counselors and see them as heros, older brothers etc. This will be a lot for them to handle at their age. Hal

Appears to have been a staff member. http://www.whsv.com/home/headlines/52639107.html

By all means, let's object to anything that makes scouts look even remotely cool. OMG, it could lead to scouts wanting to wear the uniform. GASP! Hal

Dialogue between scout (me) and committee chair (my dad) circa 1965: Scout: Dad, at the camporee the troop next to us had matching tents. They were all new and they looked great. Why don't wee have gear like that? CC: That troop charges their scouts weekly dues. They can afford new gear. Scout: Why don't we charge dues? CC: Because there are scouts in the troop who couldn't afford them. Even if it was only 25 cents a week they wouldn't be able to pay and they would quit. My neighborhood was pretty affluent and I had no idea that we had poor boys in the troop. I have no idea who they were. I am not using this to hijack the thread into a discussion of the rightness or wrongness of dues. There are other ways the troop could have handled the issue and we could probably have done a fund raiser to buy tents. My point is that because the scouts were never publicly asked for dues the rest of us never knew about their parents financial situation. The scouts were never subject to what might have amounted to public humiliation. Given the state of joblessness and the economy, is it possible that you have a scout or scouts who can't afford the dues? Hal

"Yep sherm has stated he is an Eagle! Al Gore claimed he invented the internet, too. " Ed: Wow, there's a zinger. You managed to get Al Gore and Shem in one swipe. (Don't feel bad Sherm, Ed just likened you to to the only man who has won both an Oscar and the Nobel Peace Prize). Ed, do you have any evidence to suggest that Sherm is not who he says he is or are you just swinging at the fences? Is it that your argument has so faltered that you have nothing left but to accuse those you disagree with of being liars and fakes? I've been posting here for almost a year; do you want to call me a troll too? Do we really know who you are? You claim to be a scouter from Pittsburgh but maybe you are just a troll logging in from a hash bar in Amsterdam. Sometimes the most outspoken attackers of gays are themselves secretly gay. I'm not sure why, perhaps it is to divert suspicion; perhaps they are worried that if gays were allowed to be open in the BSA then they might be outed themselves. Is that your issue? We really don't know that you are who you say you are so why should we believe you? The answer to that is simple. We all profess to be involved in scouting and to live by the oath and law. We promise to be trustworthy and we should extend that expectation to each other. Some who post here are clearly trolls but they are pretty obvious and are usually gone in a flash. Lets all assume the best of each other, even those we disagree with and attack the argument, not the person. Good night. Hal

"Yep sherm has stated he is an Eagle! Al Gore claimed he invented the internet, too. " Ed: Wow, there's a zinger. You managed to get Al Gore and Shem in one swipe. (Don't feel bad Sherm, Ed just likened you to to the only man who has won both an Oscar and the Nobel Peace Prize). Ed, do you have any evidence to suggest that Sherm is not who he says he is or are you just swinging at the fences? Is it that your argument has so faltered that you have nothing left but to accuse those you disagree with of being liars and fakes? I've been posting here for almost a year; do you want to call me a troll too? Do we really know who you are? You claim to be a scouter from Pittsburgh but maybe you are just a troll logging in from a hash bar in Amsterdam. Sometimes the most outspoken attackers of gays are themselves secretly gay. I'm not sure why, perhaps it is to divert suspicion; perhaps they are worried that if gays were allowed to be open in the BSA then they might be outed themselves. Is that your issue? We really don't know that you are who you say you are so why should we believe you? The answer to that is simple. We all profess to be involved in scouting and to live by the oath and law. We promise to be trustworthy and we should extend that expectation to each other. Some who post here are clearly trolls but they are pretty obvious and are usually gone in a flash. Lets all assume the best of each other, even those we disagree with and attack the argument, not the person. Good night. Hal

Mr. Boyce: You may be a moderate but your sources are decidedly conservative. Interesting to note that the Traditional Values Coalition lists their address as 139 C. Street SE. I think that puts it next door (if in not the same building) to The Fellowship's complex at 133 C St. This organization and address have been at the center of the Ensign, Sanford and Pickering sex scandals. All the things you said about liberals and the media can also be said about conservatives at other parts of the media. Lets not forget that Fox News is also part of the media. Given the source, I am skeptical about the TVC article. For instance, the article provides shocking statistics about domestic violence among gays but does not compare it to domestic violence among the heterosexuals. Groups with political agendas, both left and right are capable of cherry picking or outright manufacturing statistics to prove their point. Hal

Just picked up a copy at our Scout Shop. Looks like a vast improvement over 11th edition. This one has a sense of tradition that incorporates art from previous editions yet it is also very contemporary. Lots of links to web resources. Nicely organized. I like the coil binding ($14.99) but I wonder how it will hold up in the hands of an active 11 or 12 year old. The standard binding might be a better choice for them. I have to disagree with Mr. Boyce on the MB requirements. They change too quickly and it always bothers me when the current rank requirements do not match what is in the Handbook. Personally, I don't even use the Requirements book all that much anymore; I just go to the BSA website. OK, that doesn't work so well in camp although I suspect there is now an iPhone app for that. Hal

In truth I suspect that there was just as much abuse and molestation in previous generations as there is now. Its just that no one talked about it back then. There have been two many cases where pastors or priests have been busted for something that they did 5 years ago and then turns out that there is a whole line of victims going back 30 or 40 years. The first time I took the YPT class the trainer (who was 50+ years old) closed the class by asking for a show of hands as to who had been molested as a child. I was in the front of the room so I do not know how many hands went up besides his. He was quick to point out that his molestation was not related to scouting. I am also sure that his incident went unreported. Hal

Ed: Sherm has been posting pretty steadily for the last week on several different threads. He is an Eagle and according to his profile he has been a Scoutmaster, an ASM and a UC, all positions that you have held. It would seem that you might have a lot in common. I don't think that he is a troll anymore than I think that you are troll. Many on this forum have expressed disdain for the concept of "political correctness". It would appear that there is a BSA version of political correctness at work on this forum: don't question the membership policies because if you do we will dismiss you as a troll and/or suggest that you quit the BSA. Hal

Dan: I agree with your point about the corollary to Godwin's Law. I would add that when the discussion devolves to my God (or religion or interpretation of scriptures) better than yours then the conversation has also come to an end. I think we are pretty close to that in this debate. With regard to Dr. Satinover and his thoughts on therapeutic intervention for homosexuals, the American Psychological Association yesterday repudiated the concept of reparative therapy saying that there was no evidence that it is generally effective. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/aug/06/psychologists-dismiss-gay-straight-therapy/ The APA's position is based on a review of 83 studies conducted since 1960. As the article points out there are other points of view and there will be a study presented later this week saying that reparative therapy has worked some of the time. I doubt that this small (61 subjects) study will have much impact on the consensus. Hal

I'll bet he paid cash. Did the seller provide a title or any documentation to show that he owned the trailer? To get a tag for a trailer you usually have to show some paperwork. Was the buyer the least bit suspicious about the painted out markings? Did he wonder why he was getting such a good price? Did he care where the trailer came from? He may have suspected it was hot; he may have known. The scouts should not give him a penny. If he is lucky he might get something from offender restitution. Otherwise he has learned a life lesson. Hal

Look at the CSE compared to the Head Coach at USC. And who would guess that the president of U. Delaware would be the highest paid non-profit CEO? And I would love to know the story behind the 4.3 million salary for a Clinical Professor. Still, I am surprised that the CSE presumably makes more than the CEOs of American Red Cross, American Cancer Society or the United Way. I would have expected any or all of those to crack the top 5. Oh, Mr. Mazucca! You got some 'splainin' to do!

Yep. Married man, pillar of the church, the last one anyone would suspect.

I'm sorry but the clubbiness that desertrat describes is one of the least endearing qualities of scouters. A few years ago we had a pair of 15 year old twin brothers join our troop. They had just moved here as there Navy officer dad was sent to a post in the Gulf. The scouts in our troop made them welcome and they immediately had a circle of friends in a new town. I was particularly glad to see this as I grew up in a military family and knew what it was like to be in a new city and a new school. If only adults could be counted on to behave as well as the scouts. Hal

It's only the first part of the book but it looks great!

I don't think that the WVA site is in the running for the Jamboree site. I wonder if it is still being considered for the High Adventure base of that was linked with the Goshen site?

vol and skeptic: Don't know where you are but it is different here. Most of our scouts are comfortable around gays. We lost a very good scout a few years ago because he objected to the membership policies. A couple of our scouts have expressed that they are troubled by the policies as their religions teach acceptance of gays. They choose to remain in scouting because of the program. Hal