gwd-scouter

Yes, our little town gets quite busy this time of year. I was driving around yesterday afternoon and wondering to myself why there was so much traffic. Then I had the 'aha' moment. We're only 50 miles from Augusta!

Thankfully, there are still children among us who know how to use their imaginations and just let themselves be kids in the great outdoors. We have several young boys and girls in our neighborhood, my younger son is the oldest among them and is something of the ring leader. They have "forts" going up on several people's property. We live in a subdivision, but our area is heavily wooded with nothing behind us except a winding rocky creek that gets some pretty impressive white water in heavy rains, lots of trees and grasses, and wildlife. Plus, our road ends in a circle so there is very little traffic. It is marvelous to sit on the back porch and listen to the sounds of children at play.

Such sadness for so many people. Thoughts and prayers for all...

We are planning a trip in May to Stone Mountain and Six Flags in Georgia. Has anyone ever camped at the Stone Mountain campground? If so, do you have any suggestions on the best campsite locations - it is a very large campground.

That's great news, Michelle! So wonderful to hear about a Scout sticking it out and working hard to achieve his goal.

Spaghetti. Scouts in charge of cooking did a great job on the sauce. Noodles on the other hand? For five Scouts they had purchased a large box of noodles. Without reading the directions on the box, they started boiling the water in a good sized pot, but not big enough for a full box of noodles. In went the noodles and then ignored. Scouts didn't stir them while they were boiling. Water absorbed into the chunks of noodles so that in the end there was very little water and a sticky gooey mess of noodles. Clean up wasn't much fun either.

Dutch oven cinnamon rolls for breakfast. Scouts watched the adults cook this on a campout and decided they wanted to do it for themselves on the next. It actually turned into a competition, with the adults and the boys each cooking their own. Scouts won! Adults used too many coals and their rolls were very well cooked on the outside - raw on the inside. Scouts were enormously proud of their achievement in outdoing the adults that weekend.

Anarchist, you are right of course that we should all want every troop out there to be strong and successful, do our part to help each other, and avoid competitiveness. It's wonderful that your troop lives that and helps new troops get started. Sadly, that is just not the way of most of the troops in our area. Among others, one positive comment made about our troop stands out. I guess the comment was more specifically me by two parents of boys that visited ours but chose another. They both said that I was the only Scoutmaster they talked to that encouraged them to visit other Troops, go to more than one meeting, and go on an outing with each of the other Troops to try to find a Troop that best fit with their sons. Oh well, this time it wasn't ours - maybe next time.

Hi MomisBoyScout and welcome to the forum. I have heard your lament from many parents of sons and daughters who had their sons in Cub Scouts/Boy Scouts, but could not find a satisfactory Girl Scout experience for their daughters. I don't know much about how the Girl Scout organization is structured, but if your daughters have friends and parents interested in a Troop, then by all means start one up. Since you have experience in Scouting you could use that experience to ensure your Troop provides more for the girls than just selling cookies or participating in parades. Not knowing your community it's hard to post an opinion on your other options, but many areas have opportunities for both boys and girls: 4H, sports of course, and church youth organizations. I do have a question about how APO works in your area. My older son is in the fraternity at college and, yes, it is sometimes nicknamed the "Eagle Scout" fraternity because being a service fraternity it just seems to naturally attract service oriented young men. But, I was not aware that it is a co-ed fraternity. My son's is not. They did entertain the idea of chartering the fraternity as a Venture Crew, but they discarded that idea simply because they did not want it to be merely Boy Scout related. Perhaps the APO chapter you speak of was chartered as a Venturing Crew, thus allowing girls? Just curious. Good luck to you. Lots of helpful and knowledgable folks on this forum.

Using race as a measure of diversity in our area: Back in my Cub days, our Pack had 100+ boys year after year and was made up of I'd say in the neighborhood of 30% non-white children, mostly in the Tiger to Wolf Dens. Not exactly the demographic of our community back then, but close. As the years go by and the dens move into Bear and then Webelos, the numbers drop. By the time the boys reach Boy Scout age they are gone. The Troops in our area are just a sea of white faces. Why do these boys drop out? Lack of parental interest or involvement? Packs and Troops not really community based? With a couple of exceptions, all of our District's adult volunteers are white - is that a reason these boys drop out? All questions that come up at our roundtable from time to time, no real answers though.

During his BOR last year, one of our Scouts mentioned that one thing he would do to improve our Troop was to have more conservation/community service projects. He was correct, we didn't do many - scouting for food and litter pickup were it. This past year we stepped up our projects. Along with scouting for food and litter clean up, we installed duck boxes around the lakes at our council camp, planted trees at a State Park for Arbor Day, and cleaned up and enhanced the landscaping around our local food bank. Other ideas the boys are working on are helping at the soup kitchen and making emergency kits at the Red Cross. What kind of projects does your troop do?

OGE - your idea of a BSA accredited troop is interesting, but what would be the benefit of earning that distinction? If being accredited means your troop is running as a BSA "standard" troop, would that mean anything to most folks? Just from reading forum posts here, many operate troops differently, mostly within the BSA guidelines, sometimes not. Just as there are troops closely adhering to the BSA methods and are successful, others do their own thing and are successful as well (that, of course, depends on one's method of measuring success). So, if the BSA were to adopt some sort of accreditation above the Quality Unit, what do you think should be the standards? Who would do the judging? How would the designation be explained?

Hmmm, how do I answer my own question? Well, first I guess I will admit that our troop is successful - to a point. Yes, we have worked hard to become boy-run and that's working well. Yes, the boys are very active and committed to their troop and we have close to 100% participation for everything. Yes, our leaders are all trained. Yes, I spend a great deal of time and enjoy mentoring and training our youth leaders to learn to plan more efficiently and think more creatively, encouraging them when they get frustrated, and helping all the boys learn how to recover from mistakes they make along the way. Yes, our boys are advancing, albeit slowly, without it seeming like work. But, we are still so small. We have been more successful this past year than ever before in attracting new Scouts, we just can't seem to close the deal.

You are all correct of course and I have not put down any other troop while trying to promote ours. But, it has been difficult when asked directly by a parent in another troop if theirs is doing it right.

Lisabob askes about "Which personal values, and what are "religious concepts" anyway?" OK, let's say the "religious concepts" mean those set down in the form of the Ten Commandments. Seems that most of the folks on the forum that defend the DRP are believers in that document. So, MUST one believe in God in order to feel that the laws set forth in the Ten Commandments are worth living by? I don't think so. Other than those about not putting other Gods before Me and remembering the Sabbath and keeping it Holy, what parts of that document cannot be believed and lived by people without a proscribed religious conviction? (This message has been edited by gwd-scouter)

I have another thread running about what to say to someone when they ask why our troop is better than another without disparaging the other troop. But our District has several Troops that would be called Webelos III Troops, along with several that are doing the patrol method, boy-led thing. But, what do you say to a parent and scout that is looking at your troop when they mention another Troop that has boys earning over 20 merit badges within 2 years and making Eagle by 14, sumptuous banquet for every meal on campouts (prepared by the adults), volunteering as an adult leader means not doing anything (cause the SM or ASM does it) except hang out with your son? Really, why wouldn't a parent find that troop more attractive?

Last December, we had members of a Webelos Den join us for a campout. They only came for Saturday (their choice) and we had our older boys lay out an orienteering course for them and they participated in a camp improvement project with us. They had a great time, especially during free time when our boys taught them how to make primitive bows and arrows. Glowing reports from all who attended. They later came with more members of their den to visit a Troop meeting, a meeting in which we had planned to make alcohol stoves. Also very cool, although not a typical meeting - they just happened to pick a night we had one of our more successful Troop meetings. But, none of these boys joined our troop. The initial reason I got was that they wanted to go where their friends were going. OK. Three of those Webelos parents (one was their Den Leader) are disappointed in their Troop's decision for summer camp and are actually going to go with our troop this summer. OK again. Last Monday the former Den Leader came by, along with her son, to pay their deposit. Son participated in our Troop meeting and had a good time. But it was while talking to the Mom that I found out why they, and others in their Den, did not join our Troop. I posted this in another thread, but what it breaks down to is that they were scared to join our troop because we let the boys fail (a less than perfect lunch on the campout was the culpret). She then went on to describe the Troop they are now with. Typical meeting is an opening led by SPL, announcements made by the SM, break into patrols - all older boys in one that don't do anything but talk about high school and girls, a few 12-14 in another, and the new boys in another now led by her (no Troop Guide yet). After patrol activities, the troop has a snack provided by the SM's wife, an ASM. Then free-time or games. So, the former Den Leader is telling me all this while at the same time telling me that her troop is not running how a troop should - seems more like Webelos - and she really liked the way we did things even though at first glance she and her son (along with others) were scared by it. She asked a lot of questions about that Troop - things like "is that the way a Troop should be run? Is the SM supposed to make all the decisions? Is it right that the SM just announces a change in plans right before a campout and that it's been changed to such and such place and we're going to work on this? Are boys not allowed to work on merit badges until they make 1st class?" She mentioned a campout their troop has coming up and said "the SM discarded the menu the boys made and told them that they would make 'this' instead. Is that supposed to happen?" In the other thread I made about "we'd starve if we joined your troop" I was asked how well I deal with these kind of questions and I answered that I've never had to because our troop has never been visited by a Webelos Den before. And, sadly, the feedback I finally got from the folks that chose another troop came too late for me to do anything about it (they visited us in December and January and I'm only just now hearing about their reasons for not joining). Sorry for the very long post to get to the question, but I wanted to give some background. So, how would you answer this lady about the benefits of your troop without disparaging or saying "their doing it wrong" about the troop her son has joined? (This message has been edited by gwd-scouter)

The idea about changing the ages groups for Scouts is interesting. I sat on an Eagle BOR recently and I asked the candidate "if you could, what one thing would you change in your Troop." The candidate had mostly given rote answers to questions up that point, but this really got him talking. He said that he thought the age range was too broad. He said (he was one week from 18 at his BOR) that he didn't like dealing with the 11-12 year olds in the Troop - they were too immature, they didn't fit in with the older scouts. He admitted that in his troop the older guys are rather "cliquesh" and hang together, leaving the younger (13-14) to deal with the really younger (11-12) scouts. Now, without going into anything on this forum about how he and his older cohorts in the troop should be teaching those younger scouts, it was very interesting to me to hear that come from a youth member. I have noticed over the years that most guys at age 15-16 drop their activity level in Scouts tremendously, sometimes dropping all together and sometimes coming back in the last few months to "get" Eagle. Sadly, Venturing crews in our district have never done well, but maybe if the entire BSA program was changed drastically to be Boy Scouts from ages 11-15, Venturing after that, we'd keep more of these mid-teenagers active.

"I suppose the atheist group could be allowed and not allow scouts. I can't imagine why? What harm can scouts be doing? Being involved in scouts sure beats stealing hub caps." I sure hope that's not meant to imply that athiests are more likely than believers to steal hub caps.

Barry, what wonderfully thoughtful questions. Short answer is: no, I have not yet learned how to explain the values and worth of our program as well as I'd like. This year was the first time I've had so many questions from parents - we've never had Webelos dens visit us before. The thing I find most difficult is promoting the methods used in our troop without disparaging another troop. You know, when a parent says "well, Troop XXX cooks all together as a troop and the leaders always have extra food." Or, "everyone in Troop XXX has 26 merit badges after only two years." As for the female leader thing. I completely understand that it is a fair question and perhaps even a fair feeling that some do not want to be in a troop with a female SM. Been a tough two years on that one. But, once I got the chip off my shoulder that I wore for a little while, I was able see how fortunate our troop is to have two very strong male role models as ASMs, both of whom go on almost every campout we have. In many ways, ours is shared leadership, with me as SM doing the indoor SM stuff and our ASMs doing the outdoor SM stuff. One thing about being a female Boy Scout Leader that I think may actually work to my advantage is that in our area at least the vast majority of boys I've dealt with over the years come from single (mom) parent households. So, yes, while they want a strong male role model for their sons, they also may feel more comfortable sharing their concerns with me, rather than a man. May or may not be true, and not something I use as a selling point for our Troop - just an observation I've made. I truly appreciated the feedback I got from those Webelos parents that did not choose our troop. While I may not be able to (or feel the need to) fix some of the concerns, I can certainly work toward improving the way I present, define, and defend them.

I would certainly agree that I wouldn't want new Scouts to have such a terrible experience on a campout that they'd never come back, but it honestly did not occur to me that Webelos and parents would be scared off by a less than perfect lunch. We have all probably had to step in to help prevent an obvious menu disaster, especially when dealing with very new Scouts or older Scouts that just never had the proper training and experience to plan menus - but this was not one of those times. In the case of the campout I mentioned, the food amounts planned were actually appropriate to the group size including the Webelos visiting. What unfortunately happened, as I was told later, was a couple of the guys decided they were not going to have any toppings on their taco so loaded it up with meat only. That is what led to the shortage of meat for 2 tacos for all.

jblake: yes that is the way it is done at our camp: MBs get signed off, T2FC don't - your may differ. It actually never occurred to me until your post about how odd that COH after summer camp is. A bunch of older guys getting a handful of merit badges while first year Scouts get little to nothing.

"We're afraid we'd starve if we joined your troop." Yep, that's what I was told last night was a big reason why some of the Webelos I mentioned in other posts that came to visit us on a campout a few months ago did not join our troop. Isn't feedback a wonderful thing? I had asked the Den Leader and a couple of the other parents if they would tell me what had been the deciding factor(s) on choosing one troop over ours. One parent told me that he wanted his son to advance quickly and the other troop runs a more advancement targeted program (which is true). Another parent did not feel comfortable with a troop that had a female SM. I was amazed that these folks would actually tell me why they did not choose our troop and appreciated their honesty. But the response I loved the most was the one posted here. On that campout our guys planned tacos for lunch. Well, they didn't plan very well on the amounts and only had enough meat for one taco each. Plenty of the toppings, but not enough meat. A couple of the Webelos on returning home with their parents complained that they would starve on campouts if they joined our troop. Talked with their (former) Den Leader last night and she told me that story. Seems she was also afraid herself of joining our troop because "you guys are doing it right and that just scares me." She meant that we do, in fact, turn the leadership over to the boys and allow them to make mistakes along the way. I've been in kind of a funk these past couple of weeks and some of my posts have had a rather desperate tone. But, that comment last night just made me laugh, brightened my spirits, and got me excited again about my journey with the boys.

Our camp's pathfinder program usually has a ratio of 8-10 new scouts with two camp staffers as their guides. New scouts from many different troops are put together to make up the patrols. Scouts from the same troop do not necessarily remain together. I have talked with the parents of the new guys about merit badges and mentioned that many of those offered at camp would not be very much fun for these boys. They are better suited to an older Scout. Some are only offered to older/higher ranked Scouts. But, our camp does offer many merit badges that are suitable to all ages and interests: woodcarving, basketry, music and bugling, art and sculpture, leatherwork, indian lore, nature, and others. I fully understand that the boys don't get signed off on requirements for doing the new scout program at camps and I agree with it. It is certainly the responsibility of the home troop to ensure the boys understand and can put into practice those things they learn toward 1st class. I did not know that until a couple of years ago. In the past, our troop would get the requirements sheets that came home from camp for those boys in the Pathfinder Program. Advancement Chair (me at the time I'm embarrassed now to admit) would take those requirement sheets, update troopmaster for everything listed that the boys had covered during the week, and then SM would sign off their handbooks. In fact, new boys and parents were told that going to summer camp was the best way to advance through 1st class. Ah, thank goodness we've been moving away from that method.

I would do away with the requirement for DEs to add units each year. I know their performance is judged partially on new units being established, so I would prefer the emphasis be placed on growth within already established units and helping struggling units return to vitality. It seems to me that instead of starting up a new unit with a handful of Scouts and a few untrained leaders (a unit that more than likely will fold in a couple of years), it is more important to help Troop XXX grow from 8 Scouts to 20, Troop YYY grow from 2 patrols to 3, Pack XXX grow from only having a Tiger den to having one den of each age group.