gwd-scouter

Dropped my son off at his OA Chapter meeting last weekend and one of the adult advisors had a knot on his shirt I've never seen. I'm not sure about the colors, but it was a rope tied with a bowline - I think it was a white blue rope on tan background.

Joni, regarding your post "No one has ever put me in for a knot." I don't know how other units handle it, but in the days when I was a Cubmaster, I gave each of the new Den Leaders the progress card for whatever training knot they could earn. It was up to them to fill out the dates for training completed, tenure completed, etc. Then they would give it back to me and I'd turn it in to our District Advancement Chairman. Training knots were presented to adults during Pack meetings. Now that I am a Scoutmaster, I handle it the same way with the other adult leaders in the Troop. Hand them the form for Scouter Training Award and let them know to fill it out when they complete training, tenure, etc. Perhaps no one in your group knew how to go about earning the knots. Perhaps, as you say, you moved around so much that you couldn't complete the tenure requirements. Other knots are awarded by the District and Council (District Award of Merit, Silver Beaver) rather than earned by checking off boxes on a form. Your name must be put into nomination for those awards. As others have pointed out, it is certainly a personal choice about wearing knots. I like the knots. I don't care if someone chooses to wear every one they've been given or none. Their choice. Sometimes it is a great ice-breaker when meeting a Scouter and he/she has an unfamiliar knot on his/her shirt.

Kahits, It's almost a year since you first posted this question. How are things going with your Troop?

I know many fellas that have been awarded their Eagle Scout medal for whom I admit I scratch my head and wonder, how, why? I have even been responsible for a couple of them myself. Without long details, three years ago our Troop had a bunch of Life Scouts that had been completely inactive in the troop. Sporadic attendance at meetings, no attendance on campouts. PORs were in name only. Here I come as the new SM and within a month, one of the Life Scouts asks me what he has to do to make Eagle. I his case, nothing had been signed off in his book since becoming a Life Scout (2 years before) so he had not been given credit for POR or being active for six months. Same for the next guy that decided it was time to "make" Eagle. Both of these guys had less than a year until they turned 18. I freely admit that I was much easier on these two young men while they worked to complete their requirements than I was on last year's Eagle and I am now on our current 18-year-old Life Scout working toward Eagle. I didn't give them a free pass, but the guys in the troop now, today, would not recognize the expectations I had in those early days trying to just keep the troop alive compared to the expectations I have now, which mostly likely are not the same as the expectations I'll have next year and after. Some may say that's unfair. But, there was no way I could raise the bar from nothing to mountain-top all in one move. We had to get there thoughtfully and gradually, starting with the new guys and working our way along over the years giving them more and more responsibility - until now those new guys are the older guys. I know this is not a response directly to the question about the repeat offender Eagle Scout. It's just an acknowledgment that we all have a part to play in producing the "epitome" of Scouting. We've all know those Eagles that should have their picture next to "Eagle Scout" in the dictionary - the perfect shining example of what people envision when they hear those words. Then again, we've all also known those guys that are not exactly exemplary examples of Eagles, and I admit I've produced a couple of them.

Lisabob, it's interesting you ask this question because I got the same feeling from OneHour's post. I give as an example, a recent "terrible" offense committed by two of our older Scouts toward a new Scout. New Scout's Mom sends me an email saying her son came home from Scouts the night before complaining that the older Scouts were picking on him - singling him out, in fact, not acting like Scouts should, and he wanted to quit. Scout tells his Mom that an older Scout (my son) stole new Scout's shoes and hid them. Later, when they went outside, another older Scout threw a pine cone at new Scout and hit him in the head. I was not present to witness these events, but one of our ASMs was and I called him. Turns out, new Scout failed to mention the part he played in the events. New Scout took his shoes off during part of the meeting, was running all around, and acting disrespectfully to the older Scouts trying to run a skills session. Yes, my son did take the new Scout's shoes and placed them up on a shelf where new Scout couldn't reach them. He said new Scout could get his shoes back when he stopped running around, sat down, and paid attention. Not the way I would have handled it, but certainly not as horrible as new Scout led his Mom to believe. The pine cone incident involved all the Scouts outside practicing setting up tents. Turns out, one of our older Scouts got inside one the tents to sweep it out. New Scout proceeded to take out the poles and collapse the tent on older Scout. Yep, older Scout got mad and chucked a pine cone at new Scout, unfortunately hitting him in the head. What new Scout also failed to mention was that he, too, was throwing pine cones. So, there is always more to the story than meets the eye. Even my own son, who had a hand in these events, neglected to relate to me the part where he took new Scouts shoes. In the end, I was grateful that Mom contacted me, let me sort out what actually happened, and let me have the chance to talk to the Scouts. I think it is always best to try to handle things within the unit with the boys and leaders, find out all the details, and then if warranted let the parents of those involved know what happened. Too often, parents will only hear one side of the story and that side usually comes off sounding much more dramatic than reality.

How old is the newly-minted Eagle Scout? The maturity level of a 13-year-old Eagle Scout is much different than that of a 17-year-old Eagle Scout. I'm not saying what he said was appropriate, just wondering.

I'll probably bite. Bought the switchbacks when they first came out, showed 'em off at Scout meeting, and now all the guys have them. LongHaul makes a good point, though. I know a lot of folks complain about the price of the uniform, but I've had the tan shirt and old-style pants and shorts for about 10 years and they are in great shape. Definitely got my money's worth out of them.

Hey Local, thanks for asking. Things are pretty much the same. I've resigned myself to the fact that I cannot go on all the campouts, especially in the cold weather. This was a hard pill to swallow because I didn't want the guys or their parents to think I was abdicating my responsibilities. Husband takes the lead as "outdoor" Scoutmaster for campouts, even if I'm there. I handle the "indoor" stuff - SM conferences and other advancement things, training and mentoring the junior leaders, etc. Happily, our guys are handling themselves so well now, that there really is very little for me to do. Boys and their parents are very supportive and understand my limitations. I'm reasonably OK in the warmer months, but in the colder months I just can't sleep outside. So, when we are camping reasonably close by, I do go for the setup on Friday, return Saturday morning and stay until after dinner, and then again return on Sunday morning for pack-up and the drive home. If the guys are going longer distance, I do at least see them off and welcome them home. They are always so eager to tell me about the trip when they get back. I just love that! It is all working out very well.

Thanks for the kind words. In my original post, I regret that I forgot to thank the forum members for sharing your wisdom and giving me encouragement for the past two years since I signed up on scouter.com. This has been an amazing resource.

Whitney Young Service Award - black and white on tan with red border. OK, this game has been fun but I must get back to work. :-)

#38 - OA Distinguished service award - white on red

Webelos Den Leader - gold on gold

Caution - hijack in progress... Oh, no. No, sir. He's white, as white as you folks, with empty eyes and a big hollow voice. He likes to travel around with a mean old hound. That's right.

I don't know how it's done in other Councils, but in ours SM/ASM trainings are all done by the Council. District offers New Leader Essentials to both Cub and Boy Leaders, but that doesn't really offer insight into either of the programs. Council does the Troop Leader basic and outdoor fundamentals trainings once each in the late fall (usually November) and late winter (February or March). I was wondering if it wouldn't be helpful to have these trainings in late Spring or late summer? The reason is mostly because of things I've seen when Webelos Den Leaders cross over to a Troop and become Boy Scout Leaders. Most times, they have no idea how a Troop functions (or is supposed to anyway) and it could be six months or more before they can go to training. This leaves many months for them to either fall in with the current adult leadership and accept how things are done, or, as I unfortunately see and hear, feel that the Troop is out of control, doing things wrong, and move to another or start one of their own. It's been a long time since I was a Cub Leader and even longer since I took Cub Leader training, so perhaps things have changed since then. But I wonder: maybe Webelos Den Leader training could incorporate some information or components of the Boy Scout Leader Training. Maybe a one-day extra training for 2nd Year Webelos Leaders that would help them in the transition to Boy Scouts before they join a Troop? Certainly would help them to understand what to look for when they start shopping for a Troop. I know it's our job as Boy Scout Leaders to help new Scouts and Leaders to understand the program and how it is different from Cub Scouting. I think we all know that we lose so many Scouts in the Webelos-Scouts transition, and I was thinking that maybe offering the Webelos Den Leaders a chance to gain some insight into Boy Scouting before they join could help in retention.

Congrats Its Me on a successful start for your new Troop. Am curious about the reasons for starting it though. I remember early in the year you were posting about visits you had with different Troops and how disappointed you were with their meetings (Note to Boy Scouts - your meetings look boring to Cubbers). Is that what led you to start a new Troop?

Just finished my third year as SM for our Troop. What an amazing ride it's been. Only two Scouts (my son and a 17-year-old soon to be Eagle) remain who remember the Troop with a different SM. From three years ago when we were top heavy with older indifferent Scouts, we now have a wonderful distribution: The aforementioned near-Eagle, 2 Life Scouts (14, 15), 2 1st class (13, 14), 1 2nd class (13), 3 TF (all 12), and 1 new Scout. Only 10 Scouts, but a great bunch of guys. Three years ago I was considered an oddity amongst my fellow Scouters. Readily accepted and even admired by some during my years as a Cubmaster, I was met with curiosity by some and open derision by others when I became our District's first female SM. It was most difficult to accept the scorn from those people I considered my friends while I was a Cub Leader. Not to mention the boys that quit the Troop outright when the announcement was made that I was stepping up as SM. Three years of ups and downs. There were times when I wanted to throw in the towel and let the Troop fold. Times when I was just overwhelmed with putting out fires week after week, month after month. Adult leaders that resisted attempts to turn the troop around to boy-led. Adult leaders who felt they didn't need to go to training. Older Scouts who resented the change of being required to actually do something in their POR. Older Scouts who had no idea how to teach a skill to the younger Scouts - or even cared to for that matter - mostly because they never really learned the skill themselves. SM conferences with Scouts who couldn't remember the camping trips they'd been on or what merit badges they'd earned, let alone any of the skills they had signed off to get them to whatever their current rank was (no, I wasn't retesting them or asking anyone to tie a knot for me, just asking questions about their experiences). Three years ago there was no outdoor program, other than Camporees, summer camp and a smattering of State Park car camping. Meetings were mostly the SM or other adult allowing the SPL to open the meeting and then taking the floor to conduct the rest. Merit badges earned were only those done at summer camp. No uniforming. There were two patrols at that time. My new Scout son along with a couple of other new Scouts were one patrol, the other was all the older Scouts. Yes, there was a Troop Guide, but he hung out with the other older Scouts. I was the Advancement Committee Chair and asked to work with the new Scouts. Didn't know any better at the time, but husband and I and the Dad of one of the other new Scouts sure had a feeling that this just wasn't the way it was supposed to be. We went to training soon after joining - what an eye-opening experience that was. So, here I am four years later (the last three as the SM). Boys having monthly PLC, making plans for meetings and carrying them out. Making a yearly calendar of campouts and activities. Getting more adventurous and including canoe trips, backpacking, caving, snow skiing, and a first for next spring - wilderness survival weekend. The best thing about all this is that with the exception of this fall's marching band conflicts, we routinely have 75% participation and at times 100% at meetings and campouts. We have a very supportive Troop Committee and 3 ASMs who have all committed to completing their training. In fact, all the ASMs will finish their final component in January. The Scouts have seen the hard work done by our PLC and, rather than shy away from the responsibility, several are asking about upcoming elections and expressing interest in taking on leadership for the Troop. On a more personal note, I notice that I am no longer looked upon with derision by my fellow Scouters. Sure, there are a few that still think of me as somehow inferior, but they are a very small number. At our District's fall Camporee I talked with many Scouters. We discussed our Troops and how things were going. The biggest thrill for me was when others mentioned our Troop, what a great group we had, and how they were impressed with how the boys worked together and the adults stayed out of their way. What really got me though was being asked how we managed to get our guys to do that. Oh yes, even with all the turmoil, it's been a marvelous ride and I look forward to continuing the journey. Sorry for the long post and the self-promotion, but I am feeling so good about this I just wanted to share.

Novice-Cubmaster. You ask an interesting question. I can only speak for the units for which I'm familiar. When I was a Cub Leader, I remember a few Den Leaders over the years making arrangements for some of their boys to earn religious awards. As a Boy Scout Leader, none of our Scouts has earned the award. At our District Awards banquet, we recognize those Scouts that earned the religious emblem during the past year and there are very few. I don't know if this is because there isn't much emphasis on the Duty to God component of Scouting or people just don't know about the religious emblem program. We have one unit in our District chartered by the Catholic Church. That Troop always leaves campouts on Saturday night in order to attend Mass on Sunday. They do not restrict membership to Catholics only, but their policy of leaving on Saturday does once in a while result in non-Catholic Scouts leaving their troop to join another. They do have a very robust religious program. During my tenure as a Scout Leader (15 years), I've met many many Scouters, boys, and families. Some were openly deeply religious folks, although the minority, others had no religious conviction at all, again somewhat a minority, and most were somewhere in between. Our Troop had a SM a few years ago who fit the first category. He led the troop with an emphasis on Jesus, saying he didn't like the one-size fits all God that the Boy Scouts DRP supported. That worked OK until new families and boys joined the troop with different beliefs, or at least not such strongly held beliefs. A few parents expressed their concern on behalf of their sons that they didn't like all the praying "in Jesus' name" that went on before Scout meetings and on Sundays at campouts. It was not for that reason that he stepped down as Scoutmaster, but the atmosphere of our troop certainly changed after he did. For years we had a Chaplain's Aid (even though we didn't, in fact, have a Chaplain) and he would pray before each meeting, ending with "in Jesus' name we pray." But, if said Chaplain's Aid was not present at a meeting, the SPL would pick someone else to say an opening prayer. It was interesting to listen to the prayers offered up by all but a couple of the other Scouts in our Troop. Very generic "God" in those prayers, with no mention of Jesus at all. The best some guys could do was something along the lines of "Dear God, thanks for the day." I know that all but one of the boys in our Troop attend church regularly, mostly Baptist and Methodist. But, except for a couple, none seem too interested in professing their faith during Scouts or are even embarrassed to do so. The only time I've been personally confronted about religion was a couple of years ago. On a campout, the boys got to talking about religion. The discussion became very spirited, especially between two of our Scouts - one with strong Christian beliefs, the other a Wiccan. The following Monday, I was confronted by the father of the Christian Scout who yelled in my face for many minutes (in front of his son) about how the BSA is a Christian organization, I should not have allowed such a debate to take place on a campout, and he was going to talk to the Chartered Organization about it. In the end, I merely told him that the BSA was open to all with a belief in god (any god), I was not going to promote one religion over another, and perhaps I was not the best SM for his sons. Well, he never did talk to the CO or at least if he did, nothing ever got back to me. By the way, his older son is still in the Troop and about to finish his requirements for Eagle. In reading these forums and all the fuss and feathers about religion in Scouting, one could assume that everyone's talking about it, arguing about it, and it's in the forefront of the minds of parents, Scouts, and Scouters. In my experience, it just simply hasn't been a big issue. I'm not saying whether it's good or bad, just my experience.

Most guys (youth and adults) I've known over the years that went through OA ordeal and got their pocket flap, sew it on and never do anything with the OA again. They probably aren't even aware that they should remove the flap if they don't pay their annual dues.

I have been to National Camping School as Camp Director for Cub Scout Resident Camp. Attendance is by invitation from your Council and is held regionally every year. It is required for anyone asked to work in a director position at Cub Scout/Boy Scout Resident Camps and Cub Scout Day Camp: i.e., Camp Director, Program Director, Aquatics Director, Ecology Director, etc. At least when I took the course, certification was good for four years.

Pack31, back in the stone age, I ran both Day Camp and Cub Resident Camp with the Knights of the Roundtable theme. I'll look at home to see if I still have any of the outlines, program plans, crafts and activities. Hopefully, I'll find them and can send to you. I do remember that was a really fun theme! Yep, still have my "Queenie" costume, too.

I was a Girl Scout for about a year. Back in the 60s we didn't do much more than learning to cook and sew - you know, ladies work. I wanted to be a Boy Scout like my three brothers. Watched them head off on camping trips, sat through their Courts of Honor. Oldest brother achieved highest rank of the three and earned Life. No Eagles in my family. I was thrilled when older son came home from 1st grade and said he wanted to join Cub Scouts. "Hooray," I thought, "I get to be a Boy Scout now." Thus, my journey in Scouting began. I was his Den Leader from Tiger through Webelos. Older son crossed over to the Troop and I became Cubmaster for the Pack. Younger son joined Tigers one year later and I remained five more years with him as Cubmaster while his Dad worked as Asst. Den Leader and as Asst. Scoutmaster for older son in the Troop. Then, younger son, Dad and I crossed over to the Troop we've been with for four years now. That makes 15 years for me as a Scouter. Looking ahead, I hope to continue to contribute in some way to Scouting for many more years.

LisaBob gives excellent advice and I especially like the perspective from both sides. I, too, have been on the Cub and Boy sides of the recruiting fence. I remember well from my Cub days that the Troop with the same CO as our Pack did nothing to help with the Cubs except at cross over time. They simply expected the Webelos to join their Troop. The points about communication and planning are key. Just as the Troop must work closely with the Den/Pack to get information about activities as far in advance as they can, the Den/Pack must return the effort by confirming attendance at the events being planned for them - and then actually show up. On the Troop side (where I am now), for a couple of years now we have provided a Den Chief to 2 different Packs. It has not been a guarantee that a Webelos Den will crossover to our troop. We have actually only welcomed two single Scouts for the past two years. But, our Troop is better known now to the leadership of those Packs. At this time and for as long as I can remember, ours is the only Troop in town that provides Den Chiefs. Ditto the only Troop that sends Boy Scouts to help with pack-level and district-level pinewood derby. I think many times Cub Leaders just don't know about the Den Chief program, so they don't ever ask. Then again, some do know, ask, and are given no response from the Troops. Part of the problem there, at least in our District, is that almost all the Packs and Troops meet on the same night of the week. I hear from Troop's Leaders that they don't want their Scouts missing a Troop meeting to go to the Den/Pack meeting. We've worked that out by our Den Chiefs working every other Monday with the Den, attending Troop meetings the other Mondays. We have a CM and WDL who have asked at the past three district roundtables for any troop to help them by providing a Den Chief for their Webelos Den. No takers. I have spoken to them and while we currently do not have a Scout in a position to do the job, our troop elections are coming up soon, our current SPL will be stepping down, and has said he'd like to be a Den Chief. Gunny, your post mentions other adults saying they've been "used" by Dens and Packs before. Having been there myself (yeah, I started a thread out there somewhere about it), I can say that it is certainly disappointing to help out a Pack by having one of your Scouts serve as Den Chief and then see no reward (i.e., Scouts crossing over to another Troop). Or, planning and carrying out an outdoor activity for a Webelos Den only to find out they already planned to join another troop. We lose a great many Scouts during the Webelos to Boys transition. Something to consider is that while a Webelos Scout may cross over to another troop for whatever reason, your Den Chief just might have been the key to helping the lad decide to continue into Boy Scouts in the first place. Lastly, all the guys I've known that served as Den Chiefs or in other ways helped with the Cub Scouts such as Day Camp or Pinewood Derby, have said it was one of their favorite things to do as a Boy Scout.

Beavah, I understand how you could infer that my post is about advancement. I also understand how you interpret that our way is similar to that of a troop that imposes a percentage of attendance in order to advance. But, at least for our troop, advancement is not the driving force behind us encouraging our Scouts to get the most out of Scouting by being there. Rather, regular attendance and good program planning leads to fun, adventure, and, as a consequence, learning and advancement. Adhering to an arbitrary attendance requirement or a Scout doesn't advance does not seem like the same thing at all to me. One helps the Scout to think for himself, the other is merely a calculator of time served. Sorry if that comes across as harsh, but I'm not a big fan of bylaws and percentages. There is a post about how courteous can mean being respectful of other people's time. Certainly something to consider when encouraging regular attendance. Add to that personal responsibility as well as teamwork. So, while I disagree with troops setting an attendance requirement (but also know that it works for some), I would rather help the Scouts make a conscientious choice about how much they are willing to put in to and get out of their time in Scouting.

One thing I've notice in our area is that it is the large troops that have some sort of bylaws that impose an attendance requirement. Perhaps that is because the SM does not have the time to "assess the Scouts as individuals." One troop in our area does not allow a Scout to advance if he doesn't have 50% attendance at meetings and outings for the previous 12 months leading up to his request for a SM conference. Admittedly, in the past our troop had an attendance policy similar to that but it was never enforced. We dropped all the bylaws three years ago. ASMs and I agreed that motivation through punishment does not work. We prefer to use consistent reinforcement of the idea that to get the most out of the program a Scout must be present when things are happening.

One Scout's personal achievement, or what Boy Scouts has done for him. Summer 2006, new Scout at his first summer camp. Nice kid, shy, nervous, and away from home for the first time. Couldn't swim, wouldn't hike, didn't voluntarily offer to help with anything. Mom and Dad admit to being overly cautious with him and giving in to him whims. Spoiled for sure, not a brat, but spoiled all the same. Left camp at mid-week because he was homesick and Mom and Dad made a big show of how they missed him when they came up for family night. New Scout told Mom and Dad he wanted to quit. Had a SM conference with him the next week and we talked about what he did at summer camp. Especially, his accomplishment at getting in the lake and at least trying to pass the swimmer's test. He didn't, but he tried. I was enormously proud of his effort and he puffed up a bit at the compliment. He didn't quit Scouts. Last spring he opted out of the backpacking trip. Talked with him again about pushing past his comfort zone and trying to do something he knew was going to be hard. He went. He made it. Yes, he was always last and it was very difficult for him being overweight and out of shape. But he made it and the grin on his face after the trip as he talked about what he did showed his personal pride in his accomplishment. This past summer at camp, he did pass the swimmer's test. Seems he had been practicing at home before camp because he wanted to pass the test so he could canoe and free swim at camp. He also took it on himself to take the learn to swim lessons each day to help strengthen his swimming ability. A couple of weekends ago, this Scout (2nd class) was the oldest and highest ranking Scout in our Troop that went to the district camporee. He was in charge of the other three Scouts, all new guys. He was nervous, he needed a lot of guidance, but he did a great job. Driving home from the campout he talked to me in the car. Now he's interested in earning 1st class. From wanting to quit about a year ago, to asking what it takes to earn 1st class. One Scout who is getting something out of being a Boy Scout.