gwd-scouter

We meet every Monday, 6:30-8:00 pm, throughout the year. We do take a short break during the school break for Christmas. We camp every month, except January (lock-in and service project for our CO), and August (annual planning weekend at lake house), with service projects or other non-monthly activities mixed in.

Yeah, Packsaddle, reverse that. I think the High School graduation rate in SC is around 60%. Very sad!

I was not able to go on our last campout. A backpacking trip. It was not sold as a backpacking trip because we have some guys that would have backed out just from the word. Yes, they carried their gear on backpacks but only had to hike about a mile and half in to the camp site. The plan for the weekend was for nature hiking (walk) to identify plants and animals for those guys needing those requirements for 2nd and 1st class. The nature hikes happened, but the plan for identifications did not. I admit I was dismayed to find that out when husband returned and told me about the weekend. But, after husband told me about all the things that did happen on that weekend, I realized I had just momentarily reverted back to "advancement mode" rather than "growth mode." Yes, I'll own up, sometimes I still worry about whether our guys are advancing and if they may drop out because they aren't. We had guys on that trip that had sworn before then that they would never go hiking again, but absolutely loved this trip. Guys on that trip are the ones that now want to take a backpack trip on their own - without adults. Knots for advancement? One activity my husband and SPL planned as a surprise for our guys. On that trip, each Scout was required to carry on his pack an 8 foot length of rope. While hiking, they "surprise" came across a ravine - about 30 feet down. "Oh my gosh" we have to get down into that ravine How are we going to do it?" They tied their lengths of rope together making a commando rope and worked their way down the ravine. Then, back up the same way. Boys loved that so much they kept wanting to do it over and over. It's been a few years since older son earned his Eagle. It was 2001 and he was 14 1/2 and a singularly motivated individual toward that goal. He would say though that he was never really required to KNOW what he had done, just got checked marked off along the way. I'll admit too that I didn't know any better back then. Younger son declared when joining the troop that he would be an Eagle earlier than his brother. Younger son is now is 14 1/2 and missed his goal. Too bad. Younger son is Life, all the Eagle-required merit badges yet to earn, project not even in the foreground of his thinking. He's thinking about running for SPL. He's thinking about the Scouts he'd like to see in the other PORs. He's thinking about the sans-adults backpacking trip in the Spring he wants to take with his fellow older Scouts. As younger son reminds me, he's enjoying the journey and he'll get around to that advancement stuff for Eagle when it's time. Do away with advancement? I don't think that's the answer. I think there will always be boys that need hard measurable goals - something written in a book (my older son is an example). Others will follow a more intangible measure (younger son fits here). Both may reach the same destination, but on their own time. Provide a program that ignites the spirit in our boys, keep the idea that all the methods require equal attention, remind our parents frequently that Boy Scouting is not a camping/social club, remind our adult leaders that the boys learn a lot from each other - even if they appear as not being very productive, remember always that Eagle Scout is an INDIVIDUAL Scout's achievement, not to mention any of the ranks that precede it. Side note: Even though older son earned (made) Eagle at 14 1/2 and has continued in Scouting to this day (he's 20 and just was honored with OA Vigil membership), he does not credit his continued activity to his Troop or his leaders at that time. His continued activity was because of OA and working at our Council's summer camp.

--If we could move toward "Do what you have to do, so you can do what you want to do". I really like that statement. I like to tell our parents and new guys joining the Troop, that advancement is not the goal but rather a by product of a well-planned year-round program. At least, that's what we've been working toward for the past few years and I am seeing the results of our progress. We are just finishing up a fantastic year and looking through the advancement records I noticed that almost all of our Scouts advanced a rank from this time last year. I can't remember having heard anytime this year a Scout asking me "what to I have to do to get to ___ rank," a question I heard over and over just a couple of years ago. Just a natural result of their planning and execution of a great program this past year.

Younger son is already signed up to work at camp next summer as a paid staffer, probably in Ecology Dept. Older son plans to work again as well, after taking last summer off to work his co-op for college. Older son has been asked to be Ecology Director again, but turned it down in favor of another guy that has worked in that department for four years as a counselor and has more practical knowledge of nature. Because he is 21, older son has also been asked if he'd consider other department Director jobs, but after the experience he had being the Ecology Director I think he just wants to be a counselor. In any event, next summer looks like a lot of free time for husband and me. Both sons off to work for the summer!

Coming from the female perspective: I believe I just may be lost without husband around. Sure, I used to take care of my own car, cut the grass, take out the trash, fix things that were broken. Dad taught me well because he figured that girls should know how to do these things to be independent. Just as in our house, my brothers were expected to learn how to cook, sew, do laundry, clean bathrooms, scrub floors, iron. But, I'm afraid after 21 years of being married to a very handy man, I've gotten used to depending on him to do those more "manly" chores. Left on my own, I'd drive filthy cars without ever changing the oil and ride on balding under-pressured tires, I'd have to get goats to take care of the grass, I'd buy new stuff all the time because I wouldn't take the time to fix things (which by the way, is often a sore spot in our house - I'd LOVE a new washing machine, but he keeps fixing the old one), cobwebs would remain in our high ceiling stair well because I just wouldn't bother with the ladder. Sure would have to get a better paying job to pay for the plumbers, painters, electricians, carpenters and other professionals I'd have to hire. Oh wait, no worries, I have two sons...

Camp Old Indian in the Blue Ridge Council offers four different programs. Pathfinder program is designed for 1st year Scouts and puts them into patrols and works throughout the week on T-1st class skills. Most 2nd and 3rd Year campers work on merit badges and there are a tremendous variety from which to choose. The next two programs are available for Scouts at least 1st class and 14 years or older: Adventure to Eagle offers some high adventure stuff (rock climbing, white water) along with a couple of merit badges. The High Adventure Program is aimed at older Scouts (again, at least 14 and 1st class) and is operated off site with only high adventure activities. Over the years I have encouraged our older Scouts to do ATE or High Adventure and have had no takers. Older Scouts either have chosen not to go to camp at all or take merit badges they need for rank advancement (read, Eagle-required). Last year was the first year our guys showed interest in doing something different. We took the troop on a whitewater trip on Friday, leaving camp early in the morning and returning by dinner time. Yeah, they missed out on the campwide activities and inter-troop competitions, but they loved it and want to do it again this summer. A couple of the guys have also said they are going to sign up for ATE or High Adventure for this summer coming up. This is a huge change in our Troop, from older Scouts only interested in advancement to now wanting to get the most out of the journey. Every night after dinner at COI is free time: archery, rifle/shotgun range, free swim, row and canoe, snorkeling, kayaking, hiking, scoutcraft, whatever the guys want to do. For next year, some of our older guys have talked about backpacking one evening to one of the remote campsites and camping overnight, returning in the morning for breakfast. Why not? Yes, COI runs a very tight schedule during the day and the waterfront, shooting range, etc. are not open except for boys working on merit badges in those areas. But, nothing says a troop can't go off-site once in a while during the week.

Guys are still talking about their own trip. They want to do it in April when we have a backpack trip on the calendar. That trip is not a long distance hike, but rather a easy 1-2 mile hike in and 1-2 miles out. We do this trip every year so the younger guys can begin to get a feel for backpacking, but aren't overwhelmed with carrying their gear long distance. Older guys want something more challenging, they like the "real" backpacking trips we've done, but want to do it without adults. So, they've picked out the trail - a trail they've hiked before so they are familiar with the area. They want to go up on Friday evening and set up their camp at one end of the trail. Adults and younger Scouts will drive to the other end. Older Scouts will break camp Saturday morning and hike and meet up with the rest of us on Saturday night. I can just imagine the faces of the younger Scouts when they see these guys walking into camp. Not to mention the look of pride and accomplishment from the older guys. Camp Saturday night together and then all come home on Sunday. What really gets me about all this is that one of those older guys is my son. The son that HATED hiking just a couple of years ago.

Beavah, we wouldn't need to make up titles for the 1st class boys to join the PLC. Because we're such a small troop, we have not yet begun to fill all the possible PORs listed for advancement from 1st class to Star and so on. SPL and I have already begun discussion about those guys and filling the positions of ASPL, Troop Guide, Quartermaster, etc. All of those 1st class Scouts will have a chance for leadership (POR) in some capacity. Until now, we've not used all the PORs because we were working hard to develop a boy-led Troop and concentrated only on those critical PORs. Now, we are at a place where more of the PORs can be implemented with training given and expectations of performance developed.

I know just how you feel, Dan. Last year I was invited to an Eagle Court of Honor for one of my former Cub Scouts. I was CM of the very large Pack he was a part of, so I didn't really get to know all the boys that well. But, for some reason, this Scout remembered me and introduced me to others as "his Cubmaster."

Thanks for the responses. I do think that a guy running for SPL should have had prior experience in leadership, but in our Troop that has only this past year become a consideration. Our current SPL was 1st class, 14 years old when he was elected last January. Aside from the 16-year-old Life Scout who was stepping down from the job, and the 17-year-old concentrating on Eagle, he was the oldest Scout in our troop. He ran against my son, then 13-year-old Star, and won. (That was the 2nd time my son ran for SPL and lost, trying again this time). Three of the guys running this time have all been in a POR for the last year: Current SPL, my son-Troop Guide and Den Chief, and the ASPL. The other two 1st Class Scouts running have had a turn or two at leadership, being put in charge of activities during campouts and such. Current SPL and I keep in touch with each other each week through email. This has been working very well. He's really the first we've had that initiates contact with me to keep me up to date on meetings plans, if he has ideas about changing things, etc. Last week when he gave out assignments to all the guys running for SPL, my son was given the task of planning an orienteering session for tomorrow's meeting and also the Court of Honor coming up in a couple of weeks. He jumped on the computer as soon as we got home, looking for ideas for the Court of Honor. He's taught orienteering basics several times over the past year so he is ready for that. I was standing behind him and making suggestions when he turned and said, "you know, Mom, if I'm elected SPL, maybe you could just email me when you need something or have a suggestion - like you do with Ryan." Guess he's afraid of the Scoutmaster's son syndrome. This past week, current SPL wrote me about other PORs and what he may want to do instead of running again for SPL. He thought he could do a good job as Scribe if we included things like monthly newsletters, written invitations to Courts of Honor, etc. Something he wrote got me to re-examine my thoughts about the boys running for SPL. I have always thought one of the advantages of our small troop was that as SM I can get to know each boy individually-his strengths, weaknesses and personality. What SPL reminded me of though, was that my adult perception of these guys is very different than the Scouts' (youth) perception. One of the 1st class guys running is, in my mind, not ready for the job. Current SPL noted in his email that he thought only two of the Scouts running would do a good job and the 1st class Scout I just mentioned was one of them. (My son was the other.)

I have not attended Woodbadge. I was encouraged years ago to attend the Cub Scout version of Woodbadge. Didn't go to that because money was tight and I quite frankly wasn't sold on the concept. I heard about the other Woodbadge course offered at the same time - the one for Boy Scout Leaders - and it sounded much more interesting. So, as this thread begins to turn into old vs. new Woodbadge I'd like to ask: did anyone on the forum attend the Cub version of Woodbadge? If so, what was it like? Was it and outdoors and skills type program that it seems the old version of Woodbadge was, or more of a management course like the new version seems to be? The reason I ask this is it seems that once there were two versions - one for Boy Scout Leaders and one for Cub Scout Leaders, now there are two - everyone is invited. So, perhaps the course has been redesigned to be more of a management course because that fits the training and/or experience of most leaders. As I've posted in other Woodbadge forums, I've always found it a bit unfair that Cub Leaders can go to Woodbadge without having to attend Outdoor Leadership Skills like Boy Scout Leaders must. Not trying to trash Cub Leaders here - I spent 10 years as a Cub Leader - just trying to understand why the programs were changed from two to one.

I think the multiple cooking stations with charcoal is a must if you have to cook 45 foil dinners. To accommodate them all on one bed of charcoal, whew! The pile would be so hot you couldn't get near it I think.

Weather predictions we've heard widely scattered lightness during the day, followed by accumulating darkness in the evening. We've been at assembly in the pouring rain and heard we would be experiencing heavy dew throughout the day.

T164: we've only had 2 SPLs for the past two years, both kept the job for a full year. The first, two years ago, had the job for six months and we held elections. He ran again, mostly because he didn't think the other guy should run unopposed. Good thing really, since the other guy was my son and not ready for such responsibility. At least, not in my eyes nor in the eyes of the other Scouts because they voted almost unanimously for the older Scout to keep the job. After six months, the SPL asked if we could have elections and a new SPL was elected - the guy in the job now just finishing his 10th month. The former SPL was the one that suggested the SPLs in the future keep the job for a year and only have elections in six months if the guy is not doing a good job or resigns. He said six months is just not enough time to get good at the job and feel comfortable in it. In the past, our troop used the PORs for advancement only. Have elections twice a year, six months apart, so guys can get signed off for Rank. No accountability, no actual job to do, just the title with guys rotating in and out like clockwork every six months. I won't go into detail because I have so many other posts on this forum about it, but, yes, our troop follows the patrol method as much as we can considering we only have 10 guys. So far, we've only had guys in a bare minimum of PORs, rather than fill every one. Seriously, with only 10 Scouts we could have had everyone in a POR if we wanted - even the Scout and Tenderfoot guys. Only recently have we had more than 3 Scouts over 1st class Rank who would be required to have a POR if they wish to advance. We have a 12-year-old Tenderfoot Scout in the Quartermaster position and he has done a good job, when he's there. PLC and I have discussed trying the Scribe and Historian positions again. We had no success with them in the past. The lack of success was my fault. I was concentrating so hard on working with the small group of guys in critical PORs, teaching them how to do their jobs so that they could learn to take charge of the troop. Boy-led was the goal and I really didn't put much importance on Scribe or Historian. I think we are now at a place where our older Scouts have had enough experience running things and teaching that they could begin to implement other PORs. John-in-KC: Yep, I did have a chat with these guys. If they were paying attention then they know my expectations. SPL actually talked to them before I did. A couple of years ago I started contacting parents of Scouts seeking a POR and it has helped. Hmmm, I think I read something when I first joined this forum suggesting getting a buy in from the parents...

I know many troops set requirements for age and/or rank for a Scout wanting a POR, especially SPL. Other than JASM and Den Chief, I've never seen anything written about age or rank minimums so I'm wondering about a new situation in our Troop. I really don't want to interfere with the current SPL and his PLC, but in another post I wrote that we now have five guys wanting to run for SPL: the current nearly one year office holder who just decided he's going to run again, 1 14-year-old life Scout, 1 14-year-old 1st Class Scout, and 2 13-year-old 1st class Scouts. The current SPL and the two 14-year-olds are the Scouts that I give full credit to for the successes our troop has had this past year and for raising the expectation of boy leadership. This past year they alone have been our PLC, planning and carrying out our meetings and outings. The two younger 1st Class Scouts have had a few opportunities this past year to step into leadership when needed/asked as a way to start getting their feet wet and have had some measure of success. However, one of those younger guys is really only running for this job so, as he says, "he can boss everyone around" as he did those times he was asked to be in charge of something. The other younger Scout has only since summer camp been bitten by the "Scouting bug" having spent most of the early part of this year on the verge of dropping out because he was afraid to do things or thought they were too hard. Both are young still with lot's of room to learn and grow. In my other post I wrote of my amazement that five guys showed up last night for SPL's called PLC and thrilled at the show of enthusiasm for leadership. Because this is a different take on the situation, I wanted to post a separate thread. So, finally, here's my question - do I step in now and suggest that the two younger 1st Class guys back out of the running and work in a POR for a while that will provide them with more training and experience, and hopefully maturity along the way? Or, do I let things go ahead as planned, have the elections in a couple of weeks and deal with whatever happens. Sure, I hope that the guys will select the best candidate for the job. But consider this: we have 10 guys in the Troop, 5 want to run for SPL and presumably will vote for themselves. That leaves 5 remaining to cast votes, that is if they all show up on election night. Could be an interesting turnout.

I'm astonished. We are holding our troop elections in a few weeks. For background: we are a small troop, 10 Scouts, so only one patrol. We have few PORs filled: SPL (really the PL, but they like the sound of SPL), ASPL (more like a PL), Troop Guide (for the new guys), Quartermaster. Not ideal, but it is working for us right now. In the past we've had great difficulty getting anyone to WANT to be SPL. Last week our SPL closed the meeting by announcing that we were having a special PLC meeting for this week and anyone interested in running for SPL needed to be there. Well, five guys showed up last night: our current SPL, another Life Scout (my son), and 3 1st Class Scouts. We've never had a minimum rank requirement for SPL because for the past few years the highest rank we had in the Troop among active Scouts or at least anyone interested in the job was 1st class. SPL proceeded to explain the job, and then ran the PLC as if all those guys were actually a part of it already. Two of the guys are used to PLCs - my son and another older 1st class Scout are the current ASPL and Troop Guide - but the other 2 1st class Scouts have not been a part of it before. SPL asked the the guys to make final plans for the theme for the upcoming campout and meetings leading up to it. After those plans were made, he gave each of them a specific job to plan and do for the next couple of meetings. After the guys had left, SPL mentioned to me that he may run again for the job. He's had the job for almost a year. In fact, now that I think about it, he was a 1st class Scout when he started. He just last week completed his BOR for Life. Yes, a very hard working Scout. He said that he thought he was getting tired of being SPL, but now that he knows what he's doing it's much easier. He said he's learned finally how to delegate (a big problem we worked on through the year) and figures the more he depends on and expects from the other youth leaders, the more they will learn, so that the next transition in SPL will be smoother than the last. And so on, and so on. Remarkable!

eghiglie, the number and age distribution of guys in your troop looks so much like ours. We've been operating as a single patrol troop, but given the fact that we have near 100% participation, a couple new Scouts joining in December (bringing our total to 12), and a noticeable alignment of the Scouts into two groups over the past several months, it may be time for our troop to break into 2 patrols. Look forward to an update from you about what your troop decides to do.

GW-feeding them the notion that it's their troop, their plans, their experience. While I'd love to take credit as a "gifted" SM, I must say that none of our Scouts' growth these past few years would have been possible without the support, help, and wisdom of the other adults in our Troop. They got on board early on about training the boys to lead their own troop, and then stepped back and trusted the Scouts to do what they've learned. Knowing these four older Scouts (my son is one of them) and having watched them grow and mature over the years, I have confidence in their ability to hike and camp on their own. My hope is that by doing so, our younger Scouts will be inspired to improve their skills so that one day they will be the older Scouts heading out on their own.

We just had a backpacking trip this weekend. Guys tried something new. Monday night before the trip, they went over what to bring and planned menus. Friday night we had a lock-in at the church so we could leave early Saturday morning for the trip. After the guys inspected each other's backpacks, we took them all to the grocery store to buy what they needed for their meals. This worked out very well. They picked up the standard ramen noodles for lunch, but also foil packs of chicken which they added to the noodles. Rice mixes and chicken or spam for dinner. Spam was also fried it up to go with their instant oatmeal/instant grits for Sunday breakfast. Also along for meals were snack pack fruit cups, granola bars, flavored teas/hot chocolate, trail mix, jerky. Very well planned menus I thought. Best part about the trip is that these guys are beginning to want to do more backpack camping and less car/trailer camping. Joni, for our guys the main focus is lot's of hot filling food to eat and little to no cleanup. So, ramen/cup o' noodles makes the list every time, but they do add the foil-packed chicken. Instant oatmeal - did you know you can pour hot water directly into an oatmeal packet and not have to dirty a bowl? As others have posted, patrol cooking contests are an excellent way to get your guys thinking for creatively.

Do any of you have experience with your Scouts camping on their own - patrol campout without adults? Our four older Scouts (ages 14-17) want to take a backpack trip on their own. They want us to drop them off at one end of the trail on Friday or Saturday depending on the season and daylight hours. The younger Scouts and leaders would drive to the other end of the trail and camp. Older guys would hike and camp and meet up with us on Sunday. I am amazed that these guys have come so far to have come up with this idea and want to do it on their own. I also know that this has never been done in our Troop and a couple of the parents may have serious misgivings. Any experience among the forum members?

"Yeah, there are definitely WomanScouts, prairie. Fairly easy to spot 'em. Fully adorned like the ManScout. Often fairly "drill sergeant" in their demeanor... da aggressive female who is provin' herself in a man's world. Frequently found on district staff but occasionally as female SM's, though that's more rare." ------ Hmmm... Yeah, I do have knots on my shirt, so I guess that fits fully adorned. "Drill sergeant" does not describe me, but I would say I am a bit aggressive, though I prefer the word assertive (funny how those words are rarely heard when referring to a man's demeanor - sorry, I digress). I admit that early on as a new SM I had a good bit of "proving" to do in the men's club, but I've gotten over that. Have worked on District staff and still help with training. I am a Scoutmaster. Yep, guess I'm a WomanScout.

No, we do not have by-laws

Yes, I agree with you Ed. His POR was tied into his attendance. You know, a guy can't do his POR if he's not there to do it, kind of thing. Fortunately, our troop has come a long way since those days.

I have to agree with others who stated that it is the SM responsibility to see that Scouts with PORs are doing what is expected of them. Why would a SM want to wait until six months has gone by to then let a Scout know that he has not successfully managed his POR? Even worse, why would a SM sign off a POR, and then have a BOR decide to overturn his decision? I was actually a part of something similar many years ago: Scout was having his BOR for Star Rank. I was serving as Advancement Chair for the Troop at the time and this was my first BOR so I was not even close to having the experience I assumed the other two members of the BOR had. I hadn't been to training yet and never served on a BOR, so I had no idea that when the other guys asked this boy to tie knots, that wasn't OK. When they mentioned his attendance was lacking (not 50% as required in the Troop bylaws), I didn't know that wasn't OK. They mentioned that because of his poor attendance, he shouldn't get credit for his POR (patrol leader at the time if I remember correctly). But what really got me was that both these men turned him down for advancement. One of those men was an ASM for the Troop, the other a Committee member who went on all the campouts. It seemed to me they had it out for this kid. Yes, I knew him, and he wasn't one of the more popular Scouts in the Troop. It just didn't seem right to me and I spoke up about it, but was overruled. Boy's father came to the Troop meeting the next week and complained to the SM. SM said it was the Board's decision and he couldn't do anything about it. So, I go back to what other's have said. It is most certainly the SM's responsibility to see that the requirements for advancement are being met. BOR provides feedback to the SM. We had an instance about a year back. After a Scout's BOR for 1st class, one of the members came to me and mentioned that during discussion about 1st aid, this Scout didn't really know what the Heimlich maneuver was. That was excellent feedback and allowed me to check the Scout's handbook and see who signed off on it. We had recently started having our older Scouts sign off for the younger Scouts and this gave me the opportunity to talk with the instructors and work with them to strengthen their skills sessions. Yes, Scout got his 1st class and does now know the Heimlich maneuver.