Gunny2862

I hope things never get to where I might have an impeach anyone sticker riding on my car. I reserve the right to disagree with the policies of any President. I also can't say that EVERYTHING ANY President has done in my lifetime has met muster throughout their tenure. So what's with all of the hostility on either side? If it's really about the idea, then why can't we discuss the idea? The issue comes to where the idea ACTUALLY impacts my life, and probably when it ACTUALLY impacts yours too. If it's about my President vs. your President then I think it's amazing the tolerance people in the Military show when they professionally support the policies of any Sitting President when their personal opinions might be radically opposed. Why can't the populace (edited) respectfully support the Presidency even if they don't like the man or his policies - they at least can openly dissent and press for change thru their elected officials. But why must the dissent take the form of villainizing the person who is probably acting in good faith to what they actually believe to be the correct action? (end edit) And what's with booing a President as he leaves? No matter how happy one is to see him go? I can see being glad, even throwing a goodbye party, but booing and catcalling one one his way out is pretty lame. Shouldn't it really be about what is the best answer on any policy for all of us? Even if occasionally (not regularly) the majority takes one for the team? Really wish Congress could figure out this aspect. But then as Chris Matthews assures us (paraphrased) "Politics isn't about governance, it's about power." - what was I thinking? (This message has been edited by Gunny2862)

Gern, Point of order regarding your post of Friday, 1/23/2009: 7:32:54 AM. An Officer who fails to support the given order of a Superior Officer is in a completely different position than a Citizen of the United States of America who disagrees with the policies of his President. The analogy is not apt. The Officer in questioned should be cashiered in the example you give unless he follows "The Scout"s comment which would also be appropriate in the instance he references - the Citizen should be applauded.(This message has been edited by Gunny2862)

How do crews who take AMTRACK to Raton get to and from Philmont? Begging your experience here, thanks!(This message has been edited by Gunny2862)

Good point John, about the Scout being able to extract to go to their other event. Given that notice that they were going to leave and their ETD then I might not allow them to start an event they might have problems finishing (e.g. in the middle of a long compass course) but certainly wouldn't make them finish one that would break their timeline - besides the parent would most certainly overrule me and take them anyway. OTOH, I don't know how long I'd wait to start back if a parent had said they were picking up their child at X time at X location if they hadn't shown up and it was time to leave to get everyone else back to the meeting hall. I think we might have to just watch for each other on the road... of course cell phones are wonderful things when appropriately used - where there's coverage.

So far, if there is a conflict with ANY of the Scouts then it is up to the Scout and the parent to resolve it. When they have an issue with that policy I point out my family's schedule and that we seem to make it work so far. Simply it is a matter of desire - where the Scout(and his parents) desire him to achieve and succeed or excel that is where the youth is going to be that is where his focus will be. Sure I could make no show, no advance rules but watch me get castigated (rightly) by members of this forum who say I'm adding to requirements. I do counsel against holding a POR during their chosen sport season but also warn that I will cut no slack on performance(which while tied to attendance, isn't exactly the same thing) if they choose to run and get elected during their season. But I don't prohibit it - and another former SPL remarked a couple of weeks ago how much better a job the current SPL is doing than he did outside of his Sports season. The only real rules we have regarding the topic are that I have to know before we leave if a Scout is going to leave the Troop to go to another event. And that the Troop will not delay any movement in order to accommodate the Scout who is going to leave. And that it is up to the parent to take care of any transportation that varies from what the Troop as a whole is doing.

Also, if one took this discussion to it's logical extreme if you were doing Scouting to it's fullest extent you wouldn't have any time to do sports/band etc. I disagree. Just like I disagree that that youth who feels like he has to spend every moment on the baseball field/football field/ track/ band room is also wrong there IS time, the question is how will you allocate it and will the youth Do the work necessary in each area? Look, we have the majority of Scouts from the time they are 10.5 to 11 until they either Eagle at 15 and maybe quit or until they are 18 either way we are looking at 4 to 7 years. Of that 4-7 year period each sports season usually only occurs concurrently for about 4 months at a time. I've not yet seen a Sport keep a youth from participating in Scouts who wanted to be there. My own son talks to his coaches during tryouts(I didn't give him a script)tells them he'll be there for practices, for pre-camps, for games, but if a Saturday or Sunday practice conflicts with Scouting that he won't be available. One of the things a lot of Coaches use the "Mandatory" Saturday practice for isn't to DO the extra work it's to see who is dedicated to the cause(Of winning games). So far they have seen the fact that he's laying it out before he's on the team that he's giving them the option not to "hire" him for the season - So far he never not made any team. And for the most recent season he made the team not for any skill he had in the sport but so the coach could use his leadership skills and work ethic as a goad for the other players. Skills and and ethic he learned in Scouting. In my experience to date Coaches will work with youth who have multiple activities IF the youth WORKS when they are with the coach and if the Coach knows it's not an excuse to miss practices or otherwise slack off but that the youth will be there EVERY time he CAN. And the he will BE there when he is there. I feel the same way about Scouting, I don't mind if the Scout goes off and does however many Sports as long as he realizes that HE still has to WORK Scouting if he is to get anywhere. If he's just showing up for a camping club and to ride along with everyone else he may get something out of it but not what he should - and just like the coach is concerned about slackers on his team the Scout can influence the work the other Scouts are doing (for Good or for bad) depending on his attitude when he shows up.

When parents keep their Scouts from going. And attendance starts to fall for that outing. starts about 20 degrees... When the PLC says, let's look into an alternate activity or postpone. starts at 20 degrees with additional windchill impact... we usually plan our January outing as a Cabin camp for that reason. When the landowner says, let's look into an alternate activity or postpone. starts at 19 degrees When I say, "Ain't no way I'm sleeping out in that." Which has just got to be pretty bad. I don't think I've personally slept out any colder than about 15 below(before wind chill) - my floor for all of the Scouts would be about +10 degrees. The older Scouts I'd take out as long as I was willing to do it too. We don't typically get that kind of weather in this area - except for right now that is...

pack, I agree especially with the part regarding are they actually discussing the idea or is the intent to simply "dis" the other Scout.

Congratulations!

Hal, that's awesome! ROTFL My personal version is, "This is a plant, it might be a Tree, if it is, it's where wood comes from." "On the other hand, here's how you find out if you can eat it in a survival situation..." Eamonn, Yes. And maybe someday I'll get there. But I am trying. I like tying knots - not that I know many more of them than are in the manual but I can whip out any of those.

I had a great response to Eamonn's post last night but was trying to tap it into my phones browser and the kludgy thing dropped the message in the transfer - I totally did not want to try recreating it on the phone. The below will certainly differ from that response. I fully agree that the thing I want most for the Webelos of any pack is for them to make the best decision for them. A Scout who is totally focused on checking boxes is probably not going to enjoy our Troop as much as one who wants the experience of being outdoors and learning skills they will actually use. He's actually doing us a favor by choosing an Adult led or other program - whether or not he's doing one for himself, well, most of us will have another opinion on that. And exposure to varying programs is the best way for the Webelos to see what the Troops are ACTUALLY offering them. I really think for me it isn't the showing your program portion of recruiting but the headhunting aspect of some folks who are overly competitive and rude (and make remarks like "Yeah I got x# of Troop XX's Crossovers this year" not that they recruited them from the Pack but that they say they took them from the Troop) about the whole thing.(And as for most of us overly competitive is someone who is more competitive than me. ) So if you think you are poaching you may be, if you are fairly recruiting and intend to deliver the program you sell then, I doubt you are poaching. AS usual, John-in-KC has nailed it again.

When I was newer to Scouting(which isn't all that long ago), I had a much dimmer view of it (poaching)(and a much larger window of what I would have called poaching)(and on at least one occasion got pretty upset about it -mostly on behalf of the feelings of a Den Chief who felt HE'd been wronged by the "poaching" Troop)(I was probably wrong in some of what I said at the time) as anyone who remembers or cares to view my posting history will attest. I now concur that what a Troop other than mine may be offering might be exactly what a Scout who happened to be in a Pack that I have an understanding with or offer lots of support to might need and that he'd be better off with them than he would be with me. And don't feel like it's as big a deal as I used to. I still think the competitive jerk part of it is a little much on the occasions when that is the driving force behind it. But that isn't always what is really going on... To answer the question, in part; I see poaching as primarily an activity where a Troop goes to a Pack and entices Scouts with programs they don't deliver and promises they won't keep in order to keep their Troop from dying even though they know the kid won't stay more than a year or two(which is a real disservice to the Webelo in question) even though they provide no assistance or recognition to the pack during the year. At least those are the organizations I feel like do it the most. Which is somewhat irritating when you continuously assist the pack with their events and recruit and provide Den Chiefs to them and then have those same Den Chiefs who don't understand what they did wrong that "their" Webelos didn't want to hang out with them in the Troop even though they didn't do anything wrong and should be proud of their service to the pack. uh and jet526... did you read the rest of the posting you pulled this out of? The section you pulled and the question you framed around it seem a little inflammatory and (to me) not congruent with the spirit of the original post. I will also recruit from anywhere but in the spirit of fair play I don't go anywhere that tells me they are affiliated with some other Troop. Doesn't seem ethical in some way. But if one of my Scouts has a personal relationship with a Scout in one of those type situations I'm not going to turn them away just because they are coming from one of those type situations either. Did that muddy up my position nicely for you? Good, because I think that's still where I'm at.

The final authority on legality is your race official and his scale. A local pack here has: a by the book bracket(youth), things the book doesn't specifically address bracket(pack adults), and a C.O.P.E. rules bracket(adults-all comers). It's amazing what some adults will do for a win . But I'm not really telling most of you anything about that .

I think I'd have to hear GTD's definition of a Strong Troop in a Community of 12,000. If there are two troops each pulling in 750-1000 Scouts then I can see where recruiting could get to be a bear. If the combined existing Troops aren't breaking 200 then there isn't any reason another Troop or two or three couldn't be successful. Recruiting can feel like a bear in the best of situations, Scouts will sometimes take an option just to show they can, Other Leaders will poach on Packs you have relationships with, Some folks are just overly competitive about the whole thing. On the other hand sometimes youth in the packs you have agreements/relationships with have a relationship with boys in the other Troop or with Leaders in the other Troop, that really isn't them poaching - besides the boys in the pack you have an agreement with are not yours to have been poached in the first place. Just ensure that you have or are building a program that has a focus on providing the best program possible for your Scouts - ensure you are delivering the promise of Scouting to them - they'll show up AND bring their friends(occasionally from other Packs and Troops and you'll be accused of stealing their Scouts and making their recruiting harder).

If no Council Advancement person, as Advancement is handled in your District by the Districts then wake up the District Executive and if necessary the Scout Exec. in your area. Starting with them over a cup of coffee and the resources John-in-KC suggests would be a good way to go.

Veal, anyone? Smoooth, yumm.

Look, if you asked me to say either the oath and law backwards (or even the alphabet)I'd be sure you were messing with me, well maybe not sure but that's what I'd think. Talk about parlor tricks. However, I don't know why any Tenderfoot or above Scout shouldn't be able to pop out the Scout Oath or Law anytime, on no notice, not just at BOR's. But we don't use everything during the opening either, we usually open with the pledge and EITHER the oath or law and then close with either or both. We also don't mess around a lot due to the Scouts and their parents decision to hold our weeklies to an hour - so we really move pretty quickly on openings and announcements in order to provide any meeting/advancement time that isn't on an outing. I also am amazed by the perceptions of others watching our Scouts - while I am slowly moving them towards running the meetings using the planning guide it still reminds ME of a royal furball most of the time - yet 80-90% of those who visit us, join us (perhaps our extensive outing calendar has something to do with the draw?). I've got to ensure I don't mess with that aspect because the Scouts must be doing something right for that to happen.

My understanding is that it DOES vary from Council to Council. Thus to find the answer you seek you need to talk to your DE or SE. In our Council the individuals insurance is, of course, preferred but not required. Council pays for supplemental insurance to cover those who do not have (for whatever reason) adequate insurance of their own. But, as in most Councils, if the individual DOES have insurance their deductibles and limits apply before any BSA insurance kicks in.

A local delicacy is Cashew chicken (deep fried (Chicken?)nuggets with oyster sauce, green onions or shallots and cashews usually served with shrimp fried rice and an egg roll) - due to some unfortunate drawls and hillbilly-ness one phonetically orders "Cat-chew chicken" (to make it sound authentic, ham it up as much as possible) in order to receive this dish. The phonetics of ordering and the perceived low cat populations in the areas around establishments serving this delicacy leads to perceptions by some that it may actually BE Cat chew chicken. Also, The Scout in the family required a trip to obtain a few Sea-kittens for dinner once I informed him of this story and thread, mmmm delicious.

Don't forget to consider the train. DO remember, if you do so, to plan to arrive one FULL day prior to when you need to be there.

We do use a Cabin Camp once a year. However, it is an uninsulated bare wood framed shelter. It does have a wood heater that is also a cook stove. No toilet facilities, have to bring in(truck from Meeting place), carry(about a mile) or pump and purify water(about 300yds.). I and the rest of our adults DO NOT think of it as hotel camping. We only use it once a year and only in the depth of winter - when our ice storms typically occur. Our program is active enough(our average over the last five years runs around 34 day and night opportunities) that it would be a rare occasion that I would need to consider including those nights for even a semi-active Scout. But I think I wouldn't have a real problem doing so but only due to the rustic nature of the cabin in question. Haven't had to yet. (edited for spelling error)(This message has been edited by Gunny2862)

If he weren't a Den Chief, I'd take them. I have a Scout who gets 4-10 monthly service hours as a matter of course. He simply does what he does and runs into opportunities. He is also currently our SPL, a Den Chief, plays School Basketball, Track, Wrestling,and is an A/B student in a selective enrollment program. I can't figure out after watching him, why service hours are so hard to find for some of the others. He does share his experiences with the others but they aren't taking the hint.

I have nothing for admiration and respect for the Cub Scouts and their leaders efforts to do something positive by the extreme cold they endured!!! According to ScoutNut, "It seems, from an article in the Minneapolis Start Tribune, that the event organizers did not want them wearing their Scout shirts because of the risk involved of the shirts holding the icy water against their skins, and freezing solid. The recommended Plunge Wear is something tight fitting like a wet suit. However, the Pack's leaders wanted everyone to know that they were Scouts, so they had the boys, and the leaders, wear their Scout shirts anyway. " It is in the failure to follow the event organizers guidance that I have issue. I have now seen the video and now would not choose to operate it the way they did but see no violation of any Scouting rules. Other, than the Scout Law for the reason I have already mentioned. I however, am impressed and appreciative of the cold they endured in order to help someone else - that is indeed in the Spirit of Scouting!

ScoutMomSD, a sexist comment? Please!

Yes, and of the four out of five Judges who agree with this judgment.... oh wait, no they are mostly recusing themselves rather than offering an opinion.