Gunny2862

You may also be seeing the fruits of an overburdened Scoutmaster. Don't be afraid to ask if you can help as long as you realize your help may be accepted - oops. And please DO get Trained for whatever position you decide to take on. If you do want success for your child in any troop you need to understand that while your involvement will be different, and not necessarily directly with your child, that it is every bit as necessary for his success.

Karen_216, It's do-able, just put together your plan and then work your plan. Remember just because they've only given you x amount of time for lunch doesn't mean you can't start the preparations before that time. Have the foil pre-cut/torn to size before you even head out to this event. Put a cold patty on a foil pack in a Cooler 15- 20 minutes before you expect them (keep a couple of cold packs on top of the Meat until they actually show up) and let that be their starting point if you let them Buffet style choose their own ingredients. I really like the assembly line idea given before but absent any food allergies wouldn't stress about letting them pick their individual ingredients - identify those with food allergies and make special packets for them - use sharpie to mark those packets by name. Also remember that if the 30 adults know the plan you already have almost a 1:1 help ratio rather than that many additional problems. And if you pre-pack the whole packet then I'm sure you'll be food safe about it - if you let the parents and boys participate in making them monitor and ensure hand washing by EVERY person who enters the line. Good Luck, it'll be fine, just make your plan which ever way you decide to go and then work your plan.(This message has been edited by Gunny2862)

I disagree Especially on the Trail. Every one should carry at least: Their own moleskin(or other blister treatment). A couple of Band-aids and Neosporin single use packets. Whatever analgesic their parents allow them (Acetaminophen, Ibuprofen) in very small quantities. Whatever stomach remedies their parents allow them (Pepto-Bismol tablets, Immodium tablets). An epi-pen, if required Their parents of course, should have trained them in how and why to use any meds they allow. And they should NOT share any meds! Beyond that, I would agree that the Patrols FA kit should be carried and it should have more moleskin, tick tweezers, etc. and be able to treat one major injury and that the Adult Tour leaders should have a Trauma kit capable of handling at least two major injuries (two or three Quik-Clots, two Sam Splints, a couple of Dressings and a couple of Bandages and materials for a couple of appropriate slings. Taking the major kit apart on the Trail and spread loading it will result in a disorganized response to a real emergency. Maybe various persons should carry it at various times or the WFA or higher trained individual should always have it but I don't agree with breaking it down. For situations where the trailer is at hand more is better but at some point the perfect world leaves us and we need to make do with what we have and some brain power. In addition, on the Trail the heavier the kit is the more likely it is that it gets "accidentally" left behind. Having each Scout carry their own small kit keeps the Patrol and Troop kits from being depleted for minor issues, having each patrol have their own medium kit plus having the adults carry a backup gives some flexibility in the response and may increase the timeliness of the response if we actually camp a couple of hundred yards apart(as more land managers are requiring...) and the possibility of handling additional patients if required.

The voice mail thing is great... I had a business trying to contact me - they left a voicemail that said "TAG", no number, no name, thank technology I gave them my cell number -- they didn't block their caller ID and I was able to get a hold of them - to tell them I'd be working with the adults, thanks. But I do not understand trying to get information from someone and not at least letting them know who called and what they wanted to know about. It's one thing when the Scouts do this but when it's the parents it's, um, slightly upsetting.

Point of Order. First, allowing things and not addressing others is different than prohibiting things and not addressing others, it sets two different tones. (edit, a badly needed comma was inserted) IMHO, from my most humble experience. Organizations tend to take a tone of A) Prohibiting things they don't allow or B) Allowing things they don't prohibit. i.e. In the Marine Corps if it wasn't prohibited you could probably get away with doing it. My Air Force friends found the same in non-work related issues but the opposite in duty related issues. My Army and Navy friends usually found that if it wasn't specifically allowed you had better not do it - as you would not get away with doing it even though it wasn't specifically prohibited. Each one of us had no clear guidance on some issues but knew which way the wind was likely to blow. BSA is not giving the same guidance. My issue here is that the BSA chooses to straddle that line, and in so doing leaves much more open to interpretation than they may be wanting to do. And so opinion does come into play until a court case resolves it for us and most of us don't have the resources to stay abreast of those issues on a continuing basis-and then "I heard..." comes into play AGAIN. (This message has been edited by Gunny2862)

I also am a big fan of Gore-tex or other permeable liner Bivy Bags in addition to the sleeping bag in cold weather. Most Tents aren't up to the challenge but with the Bivy you are holding more heat that otherwise would be insufficient to keep the tent warm but still letting out the vapor that might otherwise chill you.

FScouter, If I am offending you it is certainly not my intent, and I apologize. However my experience has been that a line drawn that far out from what I perceive to be the issue will result in the slide of other lines. I'd rather draw a hard line and mean it than post signs that don't do anything other than warn that the line is coming along in a little while, almost there, you'll be there soon, just a few more steps... I know of very few people who actually live in a world where they can afford to be offended by the level of speech we are talking about. While it's a great ideal, I do not think it is realistic to think it can be eliminated.

Okay, (I can admit it)I have many hot buttons. Language doesn't tend to be one of them, ABUSIVE language on the other hand or the same language directed at someone else may get there very quickly. I really don't worry about a Scout having a "friggin' hard time" understanding some concept or getting a particular tent together or whatever, it's when they express their "friggin'( or stronger language) negative feeling towards another Scout or person that I begin to have issues. As to language, yes, for me, it falls in the category of cotton-pickin and other like terms. If you are going to prohibit them then you should also police for proper grammar. I will settle for the Scouts having a modicum of civility and decorum (by policing their more extreme language to the "cottin'-pickin" level) and attempting to live with out rancor towards each other. On the other hand there are individuals (that I served with)that I simply have no deeper way of expressing my feelings towards than by saying that I love those M-F's corporately and individually. And if you were ever an Infantryman maybe you get what I mean by that... Would I try to clean it up for the Scouts, sure, but it's going to be a whole lot wordier and I still probably won't get the whole idea across.

I agree with the Ammo can or a larger tackle box answer for a Troop or major incident solution, but like having several smaller (like an individual kit for each Scout) to deal with smaller things. For backpacking I kind of like the "Adventure Medical kits" to start but add and subtract things based on what we seem to use - or what I might like to have on hand and am willing to carry. I still want the Scouts to carry their own individual kits. Checking with local EMS for "used" bags does seem like a great place to start - wonder why I hadn't thought of it...

I was dismayed early on when an adult insisted that the boys buy certain items to "dress out" the meals - particularly veggies that no sane 11 year old will willingly eat. The waste was incredible. Now they cook, really cook, now that they have been given actual control of the situation. Yes they occasionally choose Ramen, but as indicated above the idea of adding some canned or bagged chicken , tuna, or other and even peas or carrots has gone over big. But I described a specific meal we had last weekend as a Troop meal at a Cabin and some new parents thought I was fibbin' until I had a Parent who still works with them in the Pack who was along tell them how good it really was.(I have to say I was impressed with that one, you couldn't get it at a Restaurant here for twice what they paid for it if you could find it at all.) We don't have much wastage now that they are buying what they want and will eat. And some isn't wastage - cereal will keep, coffee will keep, some perishables either go to the SM's fridge until next time or are donated to some of the less well off Scouts rather than throwing them away. While a straight donation it's not, I don't see it as wastage.

Remember that the Climb on Safely is primarily to get you to think thru the process..., Which you are doing. If you don't think you have or cannot create a safe system, then don't do it. Or at least make it clear in written form to the Event Organizer that you will not be responsible for that portion of the event. If you are the Event organizer and you aren't comfortable with the setup - kill it. IMHO only. I don't think a climbing instructor would be required for what you are describing. Keep the overall height under 10 - 12 feet(at their heel to your head height you're getting into harness territory) so fifteen is probably a little high, depending on the height of your Spotter and you can probably dispense with harnesses. But again ensure you have some adequate catch padding if your Spotter fails to catch and only slows them down - they'll still land with some moderate force. Will there be an EMT/Paramedic on site?

I don't necessarily know that it falls under Climb on Safely guidelines(definitely re-read and apply whatever is applicable anyway) but you DO need to refer to the G2SS p38 and 39. If you are okay there, you are probably okay with Climb on Safely for what you have described. I think the key is how high you are expecting the Boys to climb - in bouldering, for example you would need to put on a harness and belay system as soon as their feet were at your head height. It would seem with the current focus on safety (that our parents would have laughed at) that the same guideline would apply here. I would ensure I had some kind of padding on the ground and encourage the use of gloves - especially if this is a Cub Scout event? They usually don't have the hand strength to go all the way up and all the way back down - the gloves help prevent the rope burn on the way down. Also ensure that you have a dedicated spotter to try to catch or slow down their fall if you go with out a harness. This person should have NO other responsibilities when ever anyone is on the rope. Just out of curiosity, what are you attaching the rope to at the top? How is it being rigged? I'd go without the knots and make them actually climb it.

Eagle92, I agree with ElyriaLeader what you are describing may be scripted or planned but isn't what I was talking about. And would be a perfectly good example of preparing for your guests. Although it might not be the way the Troop usually does things... ElyriaLeader's example is much more in line with what I was referring to.

Our Troop is a re-constituted Troop it fell apart in the mid-late 70's and came back mid 80's. we're growing and as of Friday are running a high of 25 Scouts with 4-6 more in the pipeline before summer camp. Don't give up yet, figure out why you couldn't get the adult resources you needed. Try to get the boys to stay involved with each other and not just drift away. You'll be back, just try to figure out what went wrong and use your break to bond with the adult team you'll restart with.

Unless you are going to DQ due to it not being the same Wood supplied and that rule is clearly stated, not just a vague expectation then, I would have an issue here. As long as it is the correct dimensions and doesn't weigh in heavy, both valid reasons to DQ, the what does it matter what it's made of? Unless you have the material the car is to be built of, clearly stated in your rules.

OGE said"it may do well to let the youth know that informatoin on the web is really out there, for anyone to see and many people do see it" I have been mentioning this concept to my son before he ever joined Scouting, and to his friends. It's not good enough to simply monitor or remove it as there are sites that you can "go back in time" and see what has been posted there before. If you have Scouts that want to attend U.S. Service Academies or have sensitive or high profile jobs those archives may very well be searched and impact their attendance, hiring or career potential.

While I agree with the "Miss Manners" answer, echo'd by my Drill Instructor also... our CO expects to see the hats on, even in Church, with the exception of during prayer. Of course we're not often there in uniform for services except for Scout Sunday and as far as the current IH is concerned are "under arms" at that time. I guess definitions occasionally vary.

Dbie, not all Troops are open to the idea. Because the focus becomes on putting on a show for the Webelos and/or their parents. As long as we are not on a backpacking trip where we need to cover ground to go to the site we want to see, we could make accommodations for Webelos on almost any other excursion. The thing to remember is that the Webelos are there to see what Boy Scouts actually do, not to see a show scripted to keep them entertained and which won't reflect what they see after they join that Troop. So make sure the expectations are communicated between the Pack/Den and the Troop you are visiting with.

Our Troop is growing, yea! Oh no, our Troop is growing! Yes, in Stosh's perfect world there are no problems divide them up into Patrols and let them run, the boys will arrange for their own transport by bus or train or hitchhiking (okay maybe not hitchhiking) to where they need to be to start hiking into the wild. For the rest of us, available transport can be a limiting factor. Simply having enough cabin spaces on a given weekend if one has a Winter Cabin camp. Land managers are paying more attention (probably rightly so) to the issue. There are workarounds for most of these issues - creativity and advance planning by the boys and/OR the adults is the key. What I'm finding so far is that the more Boys you have the more people there are who go camping. As long as we can improve our parental support as we gain new Boys(even if it's just another ASM for the new Patrol and a realization that once or twice a year each family is going to need to drive and maybe an additional committee member) I think we can get thru it.

Especially for Webelos, don't forget to try to find local Troops to try to tag along with on one or two outings each. A couple of nights(or more)in the woods with Troops helps them adjust when they eventually are out without Mom and/or Dad. Even if you don't do an overnight, a day in camp will let the younger Scouts get to know some older Scouts and see the kinds of things they really do. And see if the boys can decide on a Troop before it's time to do Crossover.

I would love it if Packs would come along for a day or a half day with a camping night for more than just the single excursion we support to meet a Webelos requirement once a year.

Sorry, I can't get it under two... Youth who lead...and Adults who mentor, vice: instruct, boss, berate, instigate, micromanage. Really like the above answers too.

Moving from an "Adult club that takes boys camping" to "Boy Led" has been and is a struggle and as we continue to rotate leaders probably will be. But we also may double in size this year if all of the recruiting commitments we have received result in actual joins. But the results as the boys buy in have been worth it so far, of course, it sometimes has taken measures such as - "Well you didn't plan a trip, so the calendar dates were given back to the parents and the reservations canceled; next time plan activities and a menu and get a list of attendees, etc.,..." The biggest issue for me has been that they didn't know what was possible or trust that it would REALLY be turned over to them to make real decisions. Because the language had been spoken before but the follow thru of letting them fail never happened. Be a true believer, buy into the idea that "mistakes are proof that they are trying" and realize that the failures are not problems, they are the teachable moments where the real growth is possible.

I want to chime in and say that all of opinions offered seem to be what fit each Troops style, frequency and type of camping. Which should indicate a question you need to ask yourself. We use the Eureka Timberland Outfitter 4's, have tents that are now 12 years old that you can't tell the difference from some that were replaced(due to theft) 7-8 years ago, and when I first saw them I thought they were all less than 2 years old. While clearly not a preferred Philmont or Long backpacking trip tent(I'd hate to carry one for a 100 miles in 10 days) they are great for frequent weekend use. We encourage the Scouts to purchase their own tents for Expedition or Long Backpacking Trips(I'm looking at(in order of cost and incidentally weight, lo to hi) either a Homebuilt Tarptent(Henry Shires), a Sierra Designs Clip Flashlight or possibly a TNF Bullfrog/Tadpole for my next personal tent purchase.) One thing I would definitely consider is uniformity(not for it's own sake) but so everyone knows how to setup whatever tent they have drawn from the QM quickly and safely in the dark or in the rain. Also uniformity helps due to the familiarity with any quirks a tent show in use and set-up - once you figure out the fix/workaround it applies to everyone and simplifies training.

They're kids, some 15 year olds are going on 20 and some are still going on 5. It is and should be an individual, not blanket decision.