Gunny2862

it still has a probe... meat thermometers are about internal temps...

Well, coming late to the discussion... (edit) I've been earning some extra income for a couple of weeks and then went to Summer Camp. Directive Leadership DOES have its place, emergency situations, occasions when there isn't an emergency yet but will be if a time-line or sense of urgency isn't imparted, possibly a couple of others... But by and large, there isn't and shouldn't be a necessity for the SM to have the public my way or the highway conversation with anyone. Now in private - especially with the adults and the SM being the one willing to hit the highway??? But as John suggests, this SM may be yearning for days past and returning to a training methodology that he saw work with impressionable folk in the past - but has forgotten that a few of the basic premises of that model don't hold in Scouting. (Key paragraph) I would think the ASM's and the CC and possibly the COR ought to get together and provide a friendly gathering over a couple Cups of coffee and a Dutch oven dessert or A Canned Pork Chop and a Steak, and hash out perceptions of the SM's "tour of duty" to date. Don't forget to bring at least a couple of roses to the discussion (at a minimum at least one to start with and one to end on - as with hopefully all counseling sessions). Frankly I'd like my Committee to do this periodically for me - as John often states(and I concur) feedback is a gift. As to tiredness, remember that in many Camp situations the SM doesn't have a normal support team of ASM's and may often be juggling; his administrative duties, mentorship tasks, health and safety concerns that may be transparent during normal outings, interactions with Camp Staff, providing for the wants/needs of parents who are staying over for a night and then trading out for another parent with different ideas/wants/needs (some of whom see this as their "alone" time with the SM to influence the program and attempt to monopolize his time) a single "grumpy" episode should be expected by the end of camp. But a pattern probably does need to be addressed... Also, a question, IF the SPL started to let the state of the Campsite deteriorate over several days and gentle reminders failed to inspire a renewed sense of cleanliness - how far would a SM let it go before properly, ahem, lighting up(inspiring - breathing new life into) the PLC and/or the Troop? (This message has been edited by Gunny2862)

I concur that it sounds like the Scout isn't doing his due diligence and it IS up to him to do it but I have already found out that Scout to Parent communication isn't always based in the same reality as Scoutmaster to Scout communication. That's why I said I'd have the coffee with the Parents at this point so they could understand where their son was with out the "I've got it under control" filter from the Scout who does not have it under control if he, in fact, wants to complete. How the family handles it isn't up to me, whether the Scout finishes or not isn't up to me, but I don't think it's fair to have the parents be blind-sided when MR. I've Got It Under Control doesn't finish or waits long enough that he isn't able too.

I'd go have the proverbial cup of coffee with the parents...

I believe a Scout is Reverent, at best; Without regard to the circumstances in which he finds himself. Yes, Scout son is working at Camp right now. And would have attended Services Saturday night if he had known the Camp Director would be calling him during that service asking him to return Sunday morning after having previously given him the week off - after working the previous two and being a "Kampah"(Camper) last week. Before the call he had planned not to sleep in, but to go to the early service and work in the Child care area, then to go to the youth program, then to work again in Child care, and finally to hang out with some church friends (We have a Saturday Service and Four on Sunday). And the pattern of attendance (when attending) above is common for him when not at Camp or out with his Patrol or Troop. The fact that he has been unable to attend a service other than Camp Vespers is something that many of us who served in the military found common in our adult lives - even when there is a Chaplain he might not be available to you in the location in which you find yourself. Just like that military member a Scout needs to take responsibility for their own spiritual growth and(in the Christian realm) be doing their own spiritual studies and working their own development. And while I enjoy and need corporate worship, one should be able to forgo them for a limited period of time. And the ability to maintain ones faith in difficult or trying circumstances when largely alone is yet another reason why the POW's of the Hanoi Hilton and other POW's who came back with their faith intact are such great examples and heroes.

I do love Jodies, et al, but also agree they might be appropo for tempo training in certain areas - public parks, city trails, military reservations/bases etc, if kept Scout worthy. But don't think nature areas, wildlife preserves, or Philmont are the venues for them.

That would be why, I think, I hear the chirping of little birdies and not the tapping of little keyboards...

WARNING: Enrolling your child in Scouts might result in: Your child actually understanding the amount of work it takes to accomplish something or what it means to do something until it is actually finished. Your child gaining the ability to converse with adults. Your child being exposed to the mores of other families. Your child coming home and explaining that some of the things your family does needs to change for the better... Conversely, your child thinking about challenging you on changing somethings about your family does 'cause "Johnny's family does it that way". (True Story) Your child asking about getting some " "dead babies" (= "Bananas") 'cause there's nothing that stops cramps like the potassium in dead babies. Hey, kids are gross sometimes... And that's probably without having gone to Summer Camp, :)

WARNING: Enrolling your child in Scouts might result in: Fatigue from: Working at Fundraisers, Working all week whle preparing to Camp, Camping, Hiking, Traveling to/from Campsites located more than 100 yards apart by foot, Going back to work for a week, Going to an Order of the Arrow weekend (see your practitioner/OA Lodge Chief) for a list of possible deprivations on the OA weekend, going back to work for a week enduring a Mic-O-Say or other local Scouting Society work weekend, Going back to work for a week, Working or Supervising a fundraising or Community Service event, Going back to work for a week and Oh, starting all over again because it's a new month... Gee I only covered one possible side effect for the parent - and that's without them signing up for a position :) :)

Lisa, until this year it was entirely possible for a 13 year old to be elected to SPL, and it MAY happen again... But if he even gathered a measurable proportion of the votes he SHOULD see it as a victory. Professional politicians talk about gathering 30% as a clear sign that they didn't miss by much, they just failed to connect with one additional segment... As to being mean, if the kid (away from his mom) doesn't have a problem with the Troops behavior towards him(and they really aren't being mean _ and it doesn't sound like it) - then really neither do you - he's just playing the game his mom is laying out for him when he's with her. As to her perception that the Troop is being mean - IS there any foundation? If so address it; if not, remember that the rest of us feel your pain. Isn't being a Scouter Grand?

I've not had this issue yet, but rest assured whether the Scout knows it or not I will internally be ready to have a stroke. I think a discussion of honesty and the meaning of symbols and their fidelity to reality would be in order. I.E. how would he feel if every time he spent a Dollar that dollar may or may not be equal to 100 cents. What if you couldn't trust that when you were paid a dollar it didn't mean that you could use it to obtain a dollars worth of goods or services. What if one time it was worth 5 cents and another time it was worth 75 cents - would it still BE a Dollar?(Economists need not address the above) When you see a Fireman and his badge coming to put out a fire you should be able to trust that he has a certain amount of knowledge about saving as much as possible of your house or how to search it to save your little sister (if she were still inside). In the same ways, that First Class Badge (and any others in Scouting) only means something if that Scout who is wearing it actually learned how to perform the skill(if only long enough to get signed off, don't get me started) and hopefully can retain that skill. Any unverifiable signature would require a re-do, if it was legitimate but unverifiable that's part of the cost of cheating...

Great post also TwoCubDad! But how did you get the helicopter parents to stay at home? :) Or were they hovering in camp waiting for reports from you on what the Scout was doing at that instant? True Story: Red swimmer (Non-Swimmer) in the 3 foot deep area of the pool taking swimming lessons from the: BSAL Counselor, who is also a WSI Instructor, and is the NCS Trained Camps Aquatics Director and then the boys Helicopter Mom feels the need to tag along sitting on the Pool deck "helping" the boy every time his face goes in the water. Oh and don't forget the BSAL assisting the Instructor and the Four other BSAL's on deck doing pool coverage. ARGH! How can you Protect OR Serve any more in some of theses situations... Is it possible that SOME parents have completely out of the box unrealistic expectations?

BadenP, WAIT just a minute!!! YES, I CAN plan and lead everything that goes on in my Troop. But if the BOYS are ACTUALLY leading and responsible and learning from those activities, and I am available to, and capable of mentoring them in growing their abilities. AND if I ensure that their SAFETY is considered in their planning and in the performance of their plan then JUST EXACTLY WHERE AM I "pass(ing) all of your responsibilities off on the boys" and "what kind of example do you think you are modeling? I will give you a hint, not a good one." Exactly how am I setting a bad example by doing what BSA says is my role. Why would I plan a Campfire if the Boys can? How is a Troop where I plan and lead every activity boy led? From all of my Training in Scouting I am to SUPERVISE, and MENTOR, NOT plan and lead events. (edit)You know, maybe I should cook and clean and set-up their tents and tie all their knots for them too. Where's Kudu when you need him? (This message has been edited by Gunny2862)

Eamonn, if you are wrong on this, I'm joining you. Well said.

Scouter's plan Campfire's??? What do the Boys do? Why would I plan a Campfire after I've shown them how to do it? I think pushups for not reacting to my commands are next on that road... Where's the nearest Young Marines group? Oh, no Incentive PT allowed there either? Guess I'll just keep on Scouting...

Unless you are an insular family i.e. you home school not as much to enhance the education but to protect from outside influences, you only take part in your churches, or your home school associations athletic opportunities, you ensure prior to enrollment that whatever venue for enrichment your child want to join has the same values as your family; then, you assume the risk that your child will be presented with views other than those your family holds dear. I see Scouting as a melting pot where others values most likely won't be forced on you but where others views on life are in play and (key) are open for a safe discussion amongst the boys. Can this be taken overboard - of course. But then I'm not likely to certify that any video gaming or reading material or language used by any given Scout is going to be "safe" for any other particular family. In example, Sorry for going back to video games Beaver In some families(in one in particular that I'm thinking of) "Super Mario Kart" ESRB Rating: Everyone, is a violent game that shouldn't be played by anyone under 18 due to the extreme focus on competition and the use of "dirty" tricks to "harm" ones opponents rather than just focusing on improving ones own driving abilities. In other families the realization that it IS simply a game, makes games like "The Darkness" ERSB Rating: Mature, suitable for anyone it doesn't give nightmares to (gotta say personally don't like this one but know families where the 13 year old plays it and it's completely in line with that families views on entertainment.) Yeah, we shouldn't let Scouts swim unsupervised, or shoot rifles without training and supervision or stay out on top of mountains in lightning storms, but to say I can or should keep a child with in any particular families particular box of what is or isn't appropriate is a little bit much to ask given the widely varying views possible in many Troops. If given the insular family model above you've found an insular Troop - then maybe it can and should be done, but that isn't the life I'm living in. Our Troops families vary from "helicopters" to "if the come back broke - then they had a good time" from "religiously observant" to "Sure there's a God, somewhere..." Trying to enforce one specific families mores in such a Group is a sure recipe to thin the Troop down to the size of one family - encouraging discussion among the Scouts and tolerance of others views is a much better preparation for life after 18 in my view.

I was certified last summer using the "New" requirements. It was no joke. We DID do Rowboat, Canoe, and extra-curricularly Sailboard rescues. The break-aways from a combative swimmer were interesting but not that bad. My Instructor for the Counselor portion did do some extra instruction away from the rest of the Lifeguard class members on combatives in the water - he MADE me knock him out in order to pass on the Counselor portion - I feel certain this isn't in the syllabus(it isn't) but he wanted to be sure I wouldn't let someone drown me because I wouldn't take care of myself first, in order to take care of them. And Lifeguard trainees can usually handle themselves well enough in the water that if they were to lose it they can be extremely dangerous. Just because one is a Lifeguard in ANY other system doesn't mean they can instruct on that system much less any other. I don't think that any Lifeguard (of any System) should be able to cross-over to BSA Lifeguard Counselor w/o at least the Counselor module, regardless of whatever other systems they teach. Unless, perhaps, they are a Course Developer in that other system, but that's a whole other discussion.

Thanks for the pertinent link! However, I am told that if I (or anyone else this Council has chosen and signed off on as certified) choose to operate a range, ta da, it's now a Council range. Talk about all Councils don't operate the same...

Magnetic polarity has been known to shift/reverse in even the most expensive or rugged, and even military compasses. That's why it is important to check your compass BEFORE ANY outing. That said, how close together were you standing, did one of you have any significant metal in your pack? When taking "accurate" bearings for military use, one(used to) drop their pack(metal frame, metal shovel, extra ammo, various implements), drop the web gear( ammo, knife, etc.) and step at least 8-10 feet away from their weapon and anyone else (which still only minimized it's influence). Any metal in the area, fence line, water pipe(even buried) can have an influence on your compass reading. And as noted by one above, doing your planning on the car/truck hood is just not thinking about the situation... but funny as long as it's not me, and caught before stepping off by whoever it is. Edit: Oh and I forgot, had to take off the steel pot helmet too... yes I AM that old...(This message has been edited by Gunny2862)

Well as with many things that are national policy - since it's being quoted - where is it written as national policy? If the SE and the NRA & BSA Shooting Sports instructor say it's okay then I have to wonder where the information resides - don't want to go to them with rumors and say I won't run a range for A Pack... Not trying to avoid the rules, just living in the box I know about...

desertrat77, Ditto.

Sorry Sct Dad, but we don't ALL know that. In our Council a trained BB or Archery Rangemaster CAN operate a range for a Pack event w/o it being a District or Council event. Although, operating a Range at District or Council events is preferred due to the supposed wider use of facilities and greater exposure to the Spots to more boys.

In the fortunate position of being the one making the judgment call - or at least the final call - I like to get input. After getting input, and considering everyone is going to bounce me first, the once the call is made I would really prefer support. On the other hand, On those occasions where someone else might be making the decision. 1) Continue to support as much as you can, i.e. just because you drive doesn't mean you can't see the river and decide it's too much for you and your child - Great, maybe you can assist with the post river shuttling? Ensure dinner est up sill be complete?, Guard the Gear? 2) In a private manner, express your concerns and see if the Decision maker hadn't considered the angle/aspect you see. My biggest issue - especially since I seek input (to the extent of covering a couple of extra miles by foot to get it) I find it especially irritating to hear the person who had no opinion before the decision was made, berate me for my silliness in front of everyone AFTER I have finally made a decision.

My understanding is that: The Council decides which of the individuals can open the Range. In MY own training, IN MY council, I was given the authority by our Councils NRA Certified Shooting Sports Director on his and the SE's behalf to operate Cub Scout Shooting Ranges from layout to tear down. To include opening and closing the Range. (Edit)The titles given us were, respectively, CS BB Rifle Rangemaster and CS Archery Rangemaster. I am certain, given the nature of these things, that someone else will have a different answer...(This message has been edited by Gunny2862)

acco40, Thanks for asking... That's been a key thought of mine as I've followed the thread. I don't have any issue BEING or allowing the Scouts to BE uncomfortable in pursuit of learning. I have huge issues about worrying about being UNSAFE. I would like to think that I would make the correct Safety Call EVERY time - but realize that even with prior proper planning - of whatever methodology one uses - there will always be a factor ones isn't aware of. And sometimes that call is that conditions are marginal but not yet over the line so we're staying... I have made hugely popular decisions about leaving, and unpopular decisions about staying, but those have also been the occasions where the boys who were there bonded tightly about having "survived" "the great rain-out of..." etc.