Gunny2862

I love that photo, the only thing missing is the SM's tent - it'd be the dark one off to the side so his snoring doesn't keep every one awake....

We provide Troop tents, it can be a socio-economic issue but so far we've had enough tents and few enough Scouts who wanted to use their own gear for non-backpacking events that the socio-economic side hasn't raised it's head on this topic. We have a mix, we can set-up the parade ground exercise with the nice neat lines of uniformed tents, and will for certain occasions - like a recruiting campout with Webelos Scouts. Or when backpacking it's "catch as catch can" to try to observe LNT as much as possible, to somewhere in the middle for campouts when we aren't in the public eye. I am a big fan of the personal backpacking tent(when backpacking) but we don't require those, we simply divide up the weight of our four man tents and balance that with food and water distribution. If a Scout has purchased personal gear, that's fine they can use it but we do require that it be at least two man sized and that they use it in accordance with the buddy system. We have had issues with people trying to use hammocks but then require them to have a buddy, either a hammock in close proximity or a one-man tent next to them - to observe the buddy system. It's not been a problem for us, so far.

Those Are pretty nice...

Without seeing them it's hard to comment well, however, is it a coating on the aluminum or is it mixed into the aluminum? Would it be possible to replicate a stamp of the hiker and recycle the tops/or bottoms of Aluminum Cans by Painting and Stamping them? Is the hiker stamped into the metal, or onto the coating? Is is feasible to re-mark the whole trail with the recycled variety?

Sorry, possible side conversation: please feel free to spin it if necessary. I'm slightly confused, how is Humanism necessarily different than Atheism? Humanism is discussed as one of the possibilities in the spiritual section of the new online training course Physical Wellness at about the 25% point of section 3.

All, one question about why the SM wasn't able to plan to be off for it - note the SM is a military member. Some military jobs (many, if not most)do not translate to "9-5, oh, and I'd like this day off please".

In creating a BSA Service Project, the showing Leadership is a subjective target. There isn't really a quantitative measure. It isn't about the amount of time they show Leadership, it's about the amount of time it takes preparing and performing the project for the observer to observe the Leadership. It's the same as when someone says they want "Quality time" - the only way to really deliver what they are asking for is to spend an amount of quantity time with them until there subjective measurement clock ticks it into the quality time range. Realizing it's a whole different arena, watching non-drill instructors move platoons around, it's a pretty quick read (can be as short as 30 seconds, in other cases it may take longer to figure out that while the fellow may have the skills and the timing down they really aren't "Leading" the platoon thru the exercise - but the Platoon is following the commands out of their own discipline, that may take a longer drill period to discover...) to see who is and isn't proficient in their basic troop handling skills - which is one vector for determining military leadership but still isn't a great read but is a good starting point on who Might be a good combat leader. So it really isn't about the number of hours of duration of the project but of whether or not the Scout is displaying Leadership (and Leading) but also about whether the observer is witnessing it. I wonder if it is possible for a package review to routinely show the Leadership we are supposedly looking for, and also if these District and Council board members wouldn't be better doing their diligence by attending and observing these projects if it truly is Leadership they are trying to determine that the Scout is capable of. Otherwise it's still just a project and paperwork hurdle with varying gates depending on which District's track you are running it on.

http://minibulldesigncult.webs.com/faq.htm Links to minibulldesign, a home industry that makes several high quality stove using machined aluminum as well as soda or "adult beverage" cans. On this page he discusses not the quality of the fuels but several different commonly available ones. I have used Everclear - best done when it's warm, wouldn't carry it around Scouts. Haven't used the brake line de-icer but just because I haven't needed to. Have used all of the other products, most commonly Heet - but ONLY use the YELLOW bottle, the red is a different product you don't want the vapors around your food and I've heard there's a blue bottle you shouldn't use either.

Well, at least he gave the right answer!

Well, until they are banned they are a really great alternative for boiling water, it's a myth that they don't work at altitude unless maybe you are breaking 20,000 ft (BTDT). They do work when its cold but I include the caveat that they work better when they are the unpressurized version OR when the stove starts with some body heat and then is protected from being placed ON the snow or an iced surface. Not appropriate for survival gear at altitude but they will work in normal conditions with appropriate care - just like most things. I personally like the pressurized versions as they conserve fuel better and with some you actually can create a simmering condition. And can we please READ the G2SS? Adult supervision is required but the Boys CAN use liquid fuels, at least according to BSA, your individual Troop rules may vary... I really like these stoves: http://minibulldesigncult.webs.com/apps/webstore/ http://www.jureystudio.com/pennystove/ a personal favorite but it's easy to lose the penny - which acts as a self-regulating valve on a properly made one. And I can't find the link, but a Popular adult beverage comes in a can that looks kind of like a keg, with three of those cans one can make a nifty little system that includes the pot and you can actually cook pasta in. I've got one I built.

While I see the possible value of requiring a youth to attend having received an invitation for the inviting Scout to receive credit... One cannot control the actions of others. A boy might resort to offering a premium (bribing) a friend to attend in order to receive credit. A more balanced prospective action might be to change the requirement for the Scout to invite x number of youths where x equals the number of contacts that on average yield a new Scout joining the Troop. This still puts an action that the Scout is in control of (issuing x number of invitations) while yielding a result National would favor (gaining new Scouts thru peer to peer recruiting). And doesn't require the Scout to be held to complete a Task most adults would have an issue with, actually getting someone else to attend a meeting. In the same vein, on the adult side I propose that the youth requirement, if it required the invited to attend would pretty much mirror the following mythological adult example: New requirement to become a Scoutmaster, , "Invite a non-Scouting friend to become an Assistant Scoutmaster and both the prospective SM and ASM achieve Trained Status in each position before taking the Scoutmaster post." Watch Troops fold left and right.

I can't see this as an issue, we camp according to the MB and Individual NCA award 10 months a year and do a rustic cabin that even though it has electricity we don't make a lot of use of it - no TV, radio etc. And have a major December fundraiser that we skip camping for. W/o the cabin camp we still average 27 nights or 37 days of camping annually without OA or Lone Bear(ToLB) events(a local thing). If a Scout joins at the beginning of age 11 and stays through age 17 they can EASILY accumulate 162 nights or 222 days of Camping just by doing the regular program, w/o OA or ToLB. With ToLB and OA add as few as 18 nights and 36 days, for 180 and 258 minimum. And that is with a whole year still available for those who love Scouting and stay active as youths for the 17-18 year. My son will easily double those numbers,as will I . Rarely does a first year in our Troop ask about the Camping MB unless preparing for summer camp when they often find they will be one or two nights short by the end of Summer Camp, but by the time they do as second years they find they normally have already long ago accomplished the days and nights requirement.

Please remember this discussion at Crossover time

As distasteful as some of the threads are, Merlyn does serve the purpose of causing us to examine our positions and thus being prepared if some of these issues were to arise in our Troops. I wish we could have these discussions with a little less rancor at times but when one persons agenda feels like it is driven by a distaste for something you value, it is hard not to personalize that distaste in to a judgment of the reader - especially when it is ongoing and ongoing and...., and I feel it is possible that Merlyn feels the same. Not assured, but possible.

Concur with Beavah - as usual.

I am finding it very interesting that all of these folks Merlyn mentions as being dis-accomodated by the BSA are Eagle Scouts. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randall_v._Orange_County_Council "As a sidebar, the Randalls reached the rank of Eagle Scout before being expelled from the BSA as a result of court prohibiting further actions by the BSA regarding their expulsion until the case was resolved." And both Dale and Lambert, were Eagles as youths. Maybe Atheist Scouts do "get" Scouting. Maybe extremism based in no matter what school of thought could be the real issue in play... And just in case someone has an issue with quoting Wikipedia, "Hello, peer review is better?". http://www.bsa-discrimination.org/html/randalls-top.html - "On March 15, 1998, a special Eagle Board, made up of three parents and three Boy Scout executives, voted unanimously to award Michael and William Randall their Eagle Scout Awards. While the decision was subject to final approval by the National Council of the Boy Scouts of America, there are no known instances in Scouting's history where the National Council has refused to confirm the award once an Eagle Board has approved it." So, while William and Michael were eventually expelled from Scouting, they at least are Eagle Scouts."

Reading this as written the SM said no - they were unqualified and the CC said yes they could. While as I understand it - please correct with references if I have this wrong; but the SM makes this call, the CC can talk with the COR and the COR can remove the SM and put in a SM who will make the call the the CC wants. But this is not the CC's call. From the Sweet 16 of BSA Safety: http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/GSS/gss09.aspx "These 16 safety points, which embody good judgment and common sense, are applicable to all activities: 1. Qualified Supervision. Every BSA activity should be supervised by a conscientious adult who understands and knowingly accepts responsibility for the well-being and safety of the children and youth in his or her care. The supervisor should be sufficiently trained, experienced, and skilled in the activity to be confident of his or her ability to lead and teach the necessary skills and to respond effectively in the event of an emergency. Field knowledge of all applicable BSA standards and a commitment to implement and follow BSA policy and procedures are essential parts of the supervisor's qualifications." So, my questions would be what other qualifications do these folks have that make them capable, reliable Supervisors for this kind of outing? What exposure do they have to the G2SS and other BSA policy giving guidelines that express the applicable BSA Policies?

From BSA publication 512-927: "Limitations  Routine labor (a job or service normally rendered) should not be considered.  Projects involving council property or other BSA activities are not acceptable.  Projects may not be performed for businesses or an individual.  Projects may not be of a commercial nature.  Projects may not be a fund-raiser. Fund-raising is permitted only for securing materials needed to carry out the project.  Donors to projects must be made aware of what entity is benefiting from the project, and that it clearly is not the Boy Scouts of America.  Any funds raised for a project and not used for the purchase of project materials must be returned to the donors.  No minimum number of hours is required.  The project is an individual matter; therefore, two Eagle Scout candidates may not receive credit for working on the same project." So unless they think that Replacing the fence is routine labor - and I can assure you that tearing out and then constructing a fence is NOT routine labor, I would have to ask them under what criteria they refused it and for them to show me the reference. If they can't or won't you may rest assured that you will most likely have to do it their way, but that you are probably correct. edit=Quotation marks added...(This message has been edited by Gunny2862)

Since BSA sells Blank patches for uniquely named Patrols; We have a "Tan" patrol who use the blank patch, and since your proposed Patrol is intended to play off of Green Bar rather than Green Beret, I opine that there isn't anything wrong with it. That said, I can see how some would have issues because of the obvious possibility of confusion with the military organization and through it, the possibility down the road, if not now, for negative militaristic behavior, non-BSA uniforming issues and other possible conflicts. My uncle was one of the Vietnam era Green Berets (he has since passed on) but he would have confused the issue and seen it as a tribute to him and his brother's in arms - until the boys weren't on their best behavior - at which point he would have probably found issue with them borrowing the name. Other Veterans who haven't re-adjusted well may have the same issues. So I think I'm trying to say while there isn't anything that says it couldn't be done - it could incur negative attention to the boys from a group you really want to support you. And why open up to that?

Realizing that ADHD, ADD and Aspergers are all spectrum disorders. My wife and I never once allowed our knucklehead with (ADHD) to ever think that ANY physical altercation with ANYONE would EVER be considered to be excused by the effectiveness, or lack of, his medication. And we've never had the issue. I KNOW not everyone's circumstances are the same, BUT, I also hear "Well, little Johnny has a diagnosis..." way too many times as an excuse for "I don't want to be bothered to parent my child." Guiding and Mentoring should not be exclusive to Scouting.

Sounds like SS is like most first years. Betcha any amount of money I can afford(so about $.50) the Scoutmaster is more cognizant of the weather situation and conditions where the campsite is, and where and how he can bail, if he needs to - than you are.

As to atheism of the parents, it's a non-issue unless they want to be a leader. Atheism of the Scout presents the problems outlined above. But there are multi-faith troops out there. The Troop I serve is charted to a Christian church, we have had Scout Christians of several denominations, in addition there have been the agnostic claimant (believes in a higher power that inspires him to a moral code but isn't sure who or what), a Taoist, a Buddhist, a claimant of Voodoisim(I'm pretty sure he was tweaking us). There are plenty of ways around the rule, if one is seeking to do so. But, I would hope that the Scout, if not the Parent, would choose to accept all of their positive experiences in Scouting and choose not to attempt to complete the Eagle rank if they were unwilling/unable to conscientiously state their belief in a higher power at that time.

As to Scouts or Scouters having no purpose for you. Ever meet someone who disapproved of one of your major hobbies? Did you think they were a swell person and rush to involve them? Would it be more of an issue if what you did served others and was at times inconvenient for you or ate significant portions of your vacations and other free time? Those Scouters may be seeing someone whom they wonder why you are there since you don't approve, and if you don't approve then why would they try to involve you? Two sides to a coin man. Look, you can either choose to play along, or not, no one can pressure you either way. But do consider this - this is possibly the BEST association your child can make before college. He will forever meet people who were in Scouts and have common frameworks to discuss issues - much like college fraternity brothers - it doesn't take being in the same class year or the same university - one look at that fraternal pin and you may have just made the sale, gotten the job, or made that contact that otherwise benefits him. Same idea with Scouting less the beer AND probably a better chance of influencing the guy with an improved or more solid character.

As a Scout Dad, Scoutmaster and as concurrently a Parent, I occasionally find myself having to figure out which hat I'm wearing when I'm talking to Scout son, Current SPL, or the kid - all the singular same person. Don't blame activity he would do if he went camping with friends on Scouting - if he knows you'll clean it up, well, that's him playing dad for a sucker - mine tries it on occasion also. Ever try to un-mold a sleeping bag, my son has, after spending a weekend sleeping ON it(it was too gross to get in). All of a sudden cleaning and drying post campout takes on a whole new importance when he realizes that just because I've taken care of my gear doesn't mean I took care of his... Scouting isn't the cure-all for poor behavior choices (certainly not in the first year, and Scouters(registered Scouting adults) aren't substitute parents. But if the kid will buy in, and is properly mentored - I can't help but believe you'll enjoy the results in two or three years. But you can't abandon your parenting duties either. Just because I wear the Scoutmaster patch doesn't mean that at times I'm not dad, either also, or instead depending on the situation.

Yes, exactly. He should maintain his own gear, if possible even purchase it. This is but one of the areas where Scouts differs from all of the "worthwhile" school clubs. While we have a Quartermaster - Equipment Manager, that person only deals with Troop - Organizational gear. In school sports often only the T-shirts and perhaps practice pants come home - all else is washed, cleaned, maintained and repaired by the organization. Because they fear losing the equipment or control over it and that goal is far more important than developing responsibility and character in the members/athletes of those organizations. Scouts is really all about developing the character of the Scout, taking care of himself, his own equipment, being responsible to himself, his patrol and his Troop and to Society as a whole. If you could look past your initial bias at what you walked in thinking was supposed to be going on, and examine the "aims" and "methods" of Scouting you MAY see an entirely different picture in what you see happening. Actually do a search on "Aims and Methods of Scouting" plenty of info out there... As a Serving Scoutmaster I can definitely tell you things would run a whole lot smoother if I ran the Troop like I used to run Platoons. But that is totally not what this organization is about.