gungho4scouts

The question was brought up regarding wearing your uniform as CM, CMA, CC, etc. at den meetings. I've been looking in the publications regarding leader uniforms and everything out there leads to; yes you do. IMHO, if you're a leader in any capacity as a Scout, you help set the example as well as motivate the Boys to wear their uniforms. Thinking like a Cub, I would be wondering why I have to wear my uniform all the time and my Dad only wears it when he wants to. And with the recent changes to the Tiger Cub's uniform are the adult partners expected to still wear the Orange Sweat Shirts? In my council, I haven't seen anyone wear it, and the Service stores actually discourged me from buying it. Is there any publication stating a leader shouldn't wear their uniform at den meetings?

I like to know your thoughts on the GSUSA Daisy program.

Are you suggesting the Adult Partners wear the Orange Shirts? And as a CMA am I not suppose to wear my Leader uniform?

Thanks evmori! After I re-read my post, realize the mistake in my wording. Everyone seems to keep posting that there is a rule against all others except for Bears and I've been searching high and low for it.

Why do any of the Cub Scouts have to wait to earn and carry their knives in approved settings? Is there an unwritten rule, because according to the written rule any Cub Scout (Tiger, Wolves, Bear...) can. If there's something different, please let me know where that is in Black and White and I'll follow the rules to the T'ee. My son is all of 7 years old, he cuts his own meat even while we are out. Yes, he has cut his finger with a knife, but guess what, he lives. (The best part is that he fully respects it even more.) And he knows that he's not allowed to use a knife without my being present. I do agree that for the purpose of Scouting, only the pocket knife should be used and carried by either Adult or Child during Scouting activities. So leave out the part about the his son carring a knife, just let him know about carring anything beside the pocket knife... Then as a group open a training class for everyone to earn their whittlin cards but limit the number of Boys that can be in the class as a one time thing, etc.

It seems to be too many Chefs stirring the pot. Look at every other post on this and other sites and the trouble area is the Tigers. I've been to the training, and it's been great for things with the little guys. But where is the training for how to deal with parents? IMHO all parents should attend the leadership training if that's part of the reasoning for Adult Partners. You are expecting old and new leaders to deal with parents who want it their way. It's like being the quarterback who has to deal with the armchair quarterbacks on every play. I know, I know, it's each parent per month, blah, blah, blah. So the program is allowed to suffer to weed out the next set of potential leaders?

Another way of asking; Are 5 year old little Girls more capable of being in the Scouts (without their Mom or Dad) then Boys 2 years older? The point I'm trying to make is; is there a real need for Adult Partners given that Tiger Cubs is now considered a rank and a member of the Pack? I can see keeping the rules regarding Day Camps, Overnighters and alike. But the program seems more to spark the interest of the parents versus that of the Boys. And I'm not 'wired' to host parties, much less develop a program that encompass both parents and expect to keep the Boys interested and having fun too! Love to see a "How to" book on that one!

Are Boys in need of more Mom time then Girls? Reason for this question is that I just found out the GS 1. allow 5 year olds to join and 2. they don't use "Adult Partners". What is BSA logic behind the Adult Partners for seven year olds.

The uniform doesn't make the Scouts, it's the ideas and principals that they HELP represent. If a pair of boys official pants will cost me $30.45 (Regular) to $33.50 (Husky) and I can expect a growth spurt of at least twice this year, that's $60. Were as a pair of respectable pair of jeans will cost me $10 to $12; $24. Now I have over $30 to spend on a Den Flag, additional shirts for those who can't even afford that, special patches and awards, materials for the Pack or Den meeting games... What's makes this a fruitless argument for some of you is that even the Council's Scout Stores suggest not buying the pants for the same reasons presented in this thread. If you can afford it, then buy the "official" pants for your Sons, (and possibly for the rest of your Pack.) If that's not possible, at least propose a compromise that helps present a uniform appearance without killing the messenger.

I apologize for not including the Late Great Mr. Red Skelton's name to the post. A quick search on Google found the actual broadcast of his words, include John Waynes on the same subject. But I fear it will fall on deaf ears for the audience I have in mind.

Have you read Eagledad's posting on this subject matter? This is my 1st year in Scouting and TDL to boot but now a CMA. I had parents (2 to be exact) who wanted to meet only once a month at the Pack Meeting. I wrestled with trying to understand what the problems were. Everyone in my chain couldn't quite say it the way Eagledad did.

"I've been listening to you boys and girls recite the Pledge of Allegiance all semester and it seems as though it is becoming monotonous to you. If I may, may I recite it and try to explain to you the meaning of each word?" I me, an individual, a committee of one. Pledge dedicate all of my worldly goods to give without self pity. Allegiance my love and my devotion. To the flag our standard, Old Glory, a symbol of freedom. Wherever she waves, there's respect because your loyalty has given her a dignity that shouts freedom is everybody's job! United that means that we have all come together. States individual communities that have united into 48 great states. Forty-eight individual communities with pride and dignity and purpose; all divided with imaginary boundaries, yet united to a common purpose, and that's love for country. And to the republic a state in which sovereign power is invested in representatives chosen by the people to govern. And government is the people and it's from the people to the leaders, not from the leaders to the people. For which it stands, one nation one nation, meaning "so blessed by God" Indivisible incapable of being divided. With liberty which is freedom -- the right of power to live one's own life without threats, fear or some sort of retaliation. And Justice the principle or quality of dealing fairly with others. For all which means, boys and girls, it's as much your country as it is mine. Since I was a small boy, two states have been added to our country and two words have been added to the pledge of Allegiance... UNDER GOD Wouldn't it be a pity if someone said that is a prayer and that would be eliminated from schools too?

That's part of the problem; the TDL is trained. There's a beauitful story in the book: "The Scouting Way". On Day 2, John McCain describes how the PoA helped sustain him and his fellow POW's. "...how important it was for us to be able to pledge our allegiance to our flag and country." But I can hear the agruement; they are too young. This in my humble opinion this is hog-wash.

With the wisdom of EagleDad regarding the Tiger Cub program, I figured it would be best to ask for some ideas of how to tackle another sensitive subject. How would you approach someone who is the TDL and assistance TDL,(both who rarely wears their uniforms, and doesn't recite the Pledge of Allegiance during Pack Meetings), to implement the PoA as part to the Den meetings? I'm not just a Adult Partner, formally the TDL who did the PoA as part of the opening, but now a CMA if that helps. GungHo

Struggled with trying to understand the issues surrounding the Tiger Cub program, too. Why they are treated different even if BSA has change their status as being the same as the rest of the Pack. Hope EagleDad doesn't mind, but I wanted to share his words that has given me a better understanding of the issues at hand. Hi All, We averaged less than 50% crossovers. When we decided to fix the program, I called parents to ask them what the problem was with Tigers. Tiger age boys are first graders. For most parents, first grade is also the age where both the parents and their sons moving from the toddler phase into elementary and more independent elementary phase of the boys and parents life. It sounds silly, but this is a very big step for both the parents and the boys. I found the parents are overwhelmed with the sudden changed of their sons going to all day school, little league practice and/or piano practice after school. Saturdays are taken up with little league games and half of Sunday with church and Sunday school. Not only that, they are reluctant to allow this change in their culture to change. Moms arent ready to give up their babies and dads arent ready to give up golf. On Cub Roundup night, I found some Tiger parents to be at the very least irritably cautious with those on the other side just plan defensive at the thought of trying to fit one more program into their family schedule. I remember watching one parent carrying his Tiger aged son crying and sucking his thumb wondering was scouting really a good thing for this family. We changed our program that year and our numbers change to averaged 85% to 90% crossing over to wolves the following years I was in the pack. Here is what we did. Our first meeting was a breakfast on a Saturday morning at a small local lake. We brought fishing equipment and bait, and we cooked pancakes, sausage and lots of coffee (for the parents). We had a blast and for many of those families, this was the first time the boys had ever fished. After about an hour and half of fishing, eating and just plan having a ball, we had a quick meeting. We told the parents that this was their program. We asked that they have two one hour meetings a month and one of those meetings could be the Pack meeting if they choose, which we suggested. We suggested they not meet at anyones home because we found that tended to turn into parents meeting in one room and the boys playing in another. We gave some suggestions like touring the fire station or police station or going to the zoo and so on. We also ask that one parent be responsible for one month to organize where they would meeting and call all the parents. And then we signed up each family for only one month. That was basically it. We found that when the parent chooses the meeting place, they worked to fit it in the group schedule, not the packs. They dont feel so pressed for time or intruded on their own personal time. Just about everything they did allowed the parents to get to know each other and the boys were allowed to act their age. Since we mainly ask they take a tour of some place fun, there wasnt a lot planning taken out of their personal time. By only taking on one month, the parents werent over whelmed with the program and they usually bonded with the group by making the calls that one month. We also assigned a Tiger leader who usually was a Tiger parent the year before. Their job was basically passing along any pack information and to check on the families to make sure everything was going OK. They were told that if the Tigers were struggling, they needed to learn that so we could jump in to help them. I firmly believe that Tigers is not about the boys; its about the parents. So its the parents we worked to satisfy. If they are satisfied with the program, they will bring their sons back next year. We didnt want them to feel burdened by the program, but only to get a taste of the fun. We hoped that they would go to Pack meetings to see the fun there and start to feel comfortable with the program in general. Come about February, we started looking for a leader for the next year. Our Tiger leader usually had a good feel for the parents knew who would want to be a Wolf leader. Come March, we would approach that person and ask them to get Den Leader training to see if they would like the position, and to hold a two meetings in May. At the end of May we would graduate the boys and the adult leader into Wolves and life was sweet. This worked well the seven years I was in the pack. The Tiger program has changed twice since then. It basically requires the groups to meet every week now. I had predicted that when they made that change, it would five years later hurt the Webelos to Troops numbers because it would burn out the adults. I havent seen those numbers change, but I have seen that the Tigers to wolves numbers are worse. I tried to work with the Council on this but they just dont track these numbers that close, so I can only tell you what is going on in our District. Some packs do OK with Tigers, but they put a lot of time into their Tiger program. A lot more than it should take. Our Tiger program was easy because the parents basically took charge with us just monitoring to keep it on track. Presently one of our better packs in our District doesnt start recruiting until the Wolf age. There numbers are as good as ever, which proves that you dont need to grab the boys early to get them into scouting. But the professionals cant stand a program that has a zero in one of the age groups, so the pack leaders have to put up with a lot of stuff. I am not suggesting what you should do, but hopefully I have give a little better understanding of why the Tiger program is the hardest program to maintain in Scouting. Hopefully you can find what you need to change to make your program work. Make it fun for the parents, and you will keep the whole family. Barry

Growth spurt versus proper uniform? $10 at Wal-Mart gets my vote every time. But as a CMA, I too wear the proper uniform from top to bottom. Suggest blue jeans as the standard uniform pants for the Pack. Durable and inexpensive, still looks great with the blue shirt!

This was a much needed posting of the Tiger Cubs. I was the TDL and now a CMA, much for the reasons stated above. My Son and I are alittle ahead of others in the Den and having me as TDL with parents who are not ready to let go... Let's put it this way, I'm Gung-Ho for Scouting. I've read everything I can get my hands on, including the entire Leader Book. If you go by the "book(s)" and try to implement the Tiger Program accordingly, it will clash. EagleDad hit the issues right on the head. My only two cents to this would be possibly creating 2 Tiger Dens, one with Parents ready to jump in, and the other that need to hold on a little longer...