GS-CS_leader

John, (you can drop the "Ms."--I think of my login as my online first name) A few more comments on your suggestions (Thanks for your response!) >....makes sense for the CC to sit down with both his own COR and the >gaining unit COR, > as well as the gaining unit CC and perhaps Cubmaster. Mergers take >planning and focus > on the youth to make happen. Impatience hurts, not helps, the process. It's not quite a "merger". We bring only 1.5 dens (with a total of 10 boys) and 3 leaders (2 "trained"), and none of the key pack leadership positions, CM, ACM, or CC. That is, after all, the essense of why we are not going to be a viable pack after the end of this school year. I am anxious to have some agreeement that our pack can join another before the end of the school year. That is when we lose our CM (even if I'm not completely happy with the job he's done, he's better than no CM at all) and CC (I'm worried that the poor guy has jeopardized his chances for getting academic tenure because of all the time and effort that he's put in CS this year when he really didn't have time, but couldn't find a replacement.) Despite some parents asking me to be CM (seeing that I already ended up doing parts of the CM job), I cannot simultaneously be WDL and CM and CC. I thought about organizing a summertime activity for our current pack. I gave that up after imagining the pathetic sight of a few boys marching in our town's 4th of July parade with the pack flag that we had decided to abandon. I started to see if there would be interest in having families attend a summer CS camp. But then I realized that it would be depressing to attend a camp of the council we had decided to leave. If we can change councils, I'd love to check out their camps, but I don't want to give my son false hope if we are going to end up dropping out. The participation of our pack's families for summer events was scant last year anyway---I arranged for our pack to attend the Scout Day for the minor league baseball team and only 4 families including mine attended. If we don't have arrangements put into place by the beginning of the summer, I worry that after a summer of no CS we'll lose the interest that we have now and some of the families will decide to drop out. Also, many of our families will be be away on vacation at various times over the summer, so it is not a good time to have any joint events with another pack to see if we are compatible. Therefore, any progress in that direction will be put on hold for months. So it is not so much impatience on my part as a worry that we have a limited window for action.(This message has been edited by GS-CS_leader)

John-in-KC: >YOUR FAMILY AND YOUR SON can change packs at any time, for any reason, or no reason > at all. As a parent, your first interest has to be the growth and development of your child! I'm not interested in taking my son and myself and going off on our own. Funny thing is that I didn't feel this way when I first started to think about our options, but I'm now committed to either finding a way for all of us to continue, or to have myself and my son drop out with the others. >As a Scouter, any movement of a unit requires coordination of the committee members with >the Chartered Organziation!! The Chartered Partner OWNS the equipment of your unit. >Equally, it OWNS the Treasury. In the dissolution of a unit, the CP can either surrender the > equipment and funds to the Council, for redistribution elsewhere, or it can hold both > equipment and funds in trust for the re-establishment of a unit at some point in the future. Our pack was only (re)-chartered (after at least a 10 year hiatus) two years ago, so our only equipment is a pair of flags: US and pack. I've never seen or heard from any member of our CO. I have only seen a name for the CO representative on an address list. As far as I know, our pack started up without any start-up funds or equipment and all our funds were raised from selling popcorn. We'll all be pretty upset if we are prevented from using the money that we raised to benefit our boys before we leave or disband. I'm assuming that we'll want to fund a final activity with most of our funds. >The CC needs to be talking with the Executive Officer of the Chartered Partner and the COR, >NOT the Unit Commissioner. Commissioner's are the friends of a unit, trying to provide advice >and assistance. They do not exercise authority and ownership. That is the function of the >Chartered Partner. The CC is talking to the District Executive, a council staff member, not the UC. Our CO has provided two flags and nothing else. It is a local Rotary branch which is not at all involved in our pack. My understanding is that the CO does not have the authority to prevent pack members from joining a different pack either. >You imply the area has a thin enough youth population that only one Pack is truly supportable. >If that be the case, then it makes sense for the CC to sit down with both his own COR and the >gaining unit COR, as well as the gaining unit CC and perhaps Cubmaster. Mergers take >planning and focus on the youth to make happen. Impatience hurts, not helps, the process. Well, that's not quite the case. My town's youth population is not thin, but there are a lot of new immigrants (with non-English-speaking parents), and just a general lack of interest in scouting by parents. In the case of my school district (my town has several tiny school districts composed of 1-4 schools), few parents participate in the PTA. I believe that my town of approx 60K people has only one BS troop. The town in the other council borders my town, but is demographically quite different: fewer new immigrants, but a sizable percentage African-Americans and sizable percentage of much more affluent families than in my town (which ranges from lower- to upper-middle class). That town has quite a few packs and troops. In contrast, if you go in the other direction out toward the center of our current district, the other towns that our on our end of the district also do not have a large number of packs and troops. That's another reason why changing councils is appealing: we'd be in an area with much more general support for scouting. Also something I mentioned in another thread is that the other district's roundtables are about 2 miles away compared to our current district's roundtables that are about a half hour drive away. This is because we are far from the center of gravity of our district or our council. We were moving in the direction of having some kind of joint pack meeting so that the families of the two packs could meet and size each other up. We were well aware that the "chemistry" between the two packs might not be right. If each side was interested in proceeding, then we would have the two pack committees and leadership meet. The other pack also has a shadow CO, so I didn't think it would be useful to have the old and new CO's discuss anything. Unfortunately, that plan has gotten somewhat derailed. I was hoping that we might be able to make arrangements in time for our pack to be able to do summertime activities with the other pack. Otherwise, there will be no summertime activities because the Bear DL will be out of the country for most of the summer, and I would prefer to put my efforts into a new rather than a dying pack, and the other den leader has never done anything outside his own den. But our late-breaking news is positive: The DE says he just wants the chance to talk to the parents of our pack and the chance to carry out his "direct mail" recruitment at our school. He can't attend our committee meeting because he will be out of the country, but he will be sending another person with 20 years of experience with local packs and possibly even his boss. I already have a big list of all the options and issues we considered. I'm hoping that once they see that it isn't just a random uninformed decision, then they will be gracious about letting us decide our own fate without giving us further hassles. I just hope they don't take too long because I'll need to leave after an hour to get ready for a GS overnight early the next morning.

packsaddle: > What I'm suggesting is to 'call the question' for the other pack leadership. Pack B's CM wants his pack to stand back until the dust settles between us and our council. Right now my pack's CC's goal is to get the DE to admit in writing that there is no official rule preventing us from joining another pack. I think he thought that might be good enough to allow us to go off and join the other pack. But it's going to be tougher now that it sounds like Pack B might require us to get our current council's cooperation for the change. So then I think the next step is to make our council understand that we're leaving their council no matter what, whether by joining a different pack in the other council, or by dropping out of scouting. Our council is not going to keep us no matter what they do. Our CC thought that it seemed to confrontational to bring that up right away. I feel that given the DE's past refusal to face the facts, we will need to be very direct or he will persist in unrealistic ideas about how our pack can be saved. But I trust our CC to address the issue in the way that is least likely to prematurely ruffle feathers and has the best chance of getting our council to agree to our switching to the other council. Our pack's next committee meeting is this Friday. Our CC's letter to the DE says that he needs answers to our questions about joining another pack before then. At the last committee meeting, the UC did not come and our CM came for only a part of the meeting. I wonder if the DE and UC will come now that they know we are serious about leaving the council. If they come, it will certainly change the agenda of the meeting. My co-DL wants us to discuss possible ways to use up funds in our pack's account. The next deadline after that is that if I don't get reassurance that we'll be able to join the other pack, I'm going to cancel out on both the Webelos change-of-position and BALOO (outdoor training) in mid-May that I registered and paid for. Too bad I already bought vaious Webelos books. I'm certainly glad that I did not already register and pay for my family to attend a CS summer camp weekend.

> Regardless if your pack dissolves or if it merges with the other, your current DE is going to > lose the unit. We had a similar situation years ago and I sympathize. Intelligence and > motivation must not always be part of the job description for those positions. I believe that one problem is that council staff is rewarded for numbers of boys and units, not for making sure that the boys are well-served. Also, they do not usually have a personal stake in it in the form of having their own sons being affected by what they do, nor do most of them seek out the job because of a deep commitment to and love of children or even the institution of scouting. (Our DE from last year shocked some leaders when she openly admitted that she disliked children! And to judge by comments from our former CM who dropped out with her son from scouting and is still bitter about interactions with the former DE, she wasn't very good with adults either.) Scouting staff positions neither pay exceptionally well, nor do they give people with those jobs much status in the outside world. So the people in those positions are not necessarily the cream of the crop when it comes to people or administrative skills. I'm not saying that they are all that bad, but some of the situations are sticky and require real skill to resolve. I also believe that the staff often receive their training from other people who are themselves too far removed themselves from close and direct contact with the boys or adult volunteers and do not have any real experience of scouting in various different areas where the situations may be very different. It's just a shame when these people do not recognize their own limitations, do not listen to the people who are trying to explain a situation, and actively impede action that would be the best for the boys.

>It sounds like the only "problem" you have is with that one committee member. Well, it's more than that (see below). The committee member with objections is the Scoutmaster of the BS Troop that the pack is affiliated with (let's call the one we want to join "Pack B"). The deal is that she personally knows our pack's Unit Commissioner. Pack B seems to be building up from a near collapse that caused them to lose their Bear and Wolf dens to another nearby pack. It sounds like she has a lot of influence in the pack. The person I've been talking to is a super enthusiastic Tiger leader whom I "met" through these forums (and whom I expect to end up reading these posts ) He is now acting CM. This "TDL" has expressed his support for me and my pack (if that is the only way that we will stay in scouting), but thinks that the rest of his pack leadership will not want to get into the mess if it's going to cause trouble from our council. I feel that TDL already has his work cut out for him in trying to build up his pack (although our joining could really help with that!), so I don't want him to jeopardize that on our account. >You know that you don't have to move as a group, don't you. If some families want to stay in >town, some want to join a pack further away, & some others want to go elsewhere they are >perfectly able to do so on their own. > Yes, I know. The DL and I (currently ADL, but DL next year if I don't quit) had extensive discussions about this. But if they don't continue with us, the other families will certainly just drop out. As far as bringing along the other den, I've provided information to the Wolf DL as a service, but have made it clear that what to do next year is their own decision. To be honest, I have suspicions that he was ready to hang it up and was almost relieved that the demise of the pack would be an easy way out for him (he currently does not have an ADL). At least that is one reason I think he was very non-committal and lukewarm when I first discussed this with him. But he has warmed to the idea and the families in his pack expressed a lot of interest at the pack meeting that he could not attend, but in which I described Pack B and proposed our dens joining it. >Are there any other Packs in the nearby council that are possibilities? I would visit as many >Packs as possible to see how their programs look. If you have other possibilities, I would tell >the one Pack with the gossipy committee member that you will be going elsewhere. Not really. There is another pack that is even closer. I think their school is just over a mile from ours. But they are also struggling and have no younger dens just like us. They have a Bear Den with 10 boys. So it won't work for our 4 Bears to join that den. But the den numbers would be quite unequal, but it could cause bad feelings if there was any shifting of scouts from one den to another and I would not want to try to push any new boys to join our den just because we are smaller when they might prefer to stick with their friends from school in the other den. And we'd be leaving one dying pack to join another dying in the same way. We do not want to have to go through this again---once is bad enough. At least Pack B has a stong Tiger den, decent pack leadership coverage, and good potential for other new young dens in the future since its school has been able to start up new dens in the past. Other families are not willing to go to pack meetings any farther away that Pack B's. I had to show one of my den families on a map that it was only 2.5 miles away before she was willing to even consider it. Another factor is that most of the families in our pack do not want to join a large pack where we might feel like minority outsiders. We're also proud enough that we don't want to be taken on as a "charity" case where the other pack sees themselves as "saving" us rather than as us bringing our own contributions to the pack strength. The non-religioius packs in our area mostly have boys from one or possibly two schools. We already know that we are not likely to get new scouts from our school (based on our failed recruiting efforts), so our only hope would be to get scouts from the school(s) of the new pack. But as noted above, those boys would probably want to join dens with boys from their own schools. Our BDL and I are really the only ones willing to put substantial effort into finding a way for the boys to continue in scouting next year. There aren't a lot of CS options in our area, so it takes more effort to have your son participate if you do something besides your own school's pack. If we can't join another pack, I'm 99% sure that all of the boys will drop out of scouting. > I agree with ScoutNut except that I wouldn't worry about the one loudmouth. The comment that >someone else is going to be upset is speculative and you can't let someone else's irrational > behavior control your life. It is not "speculative". Our CC has already had more than one detailed conversation with the DE. The DE just ignores reality and keeps talking about how we just need better recruiting. He is new to the job, so I'm sure he is just parroting the usual council-level stuff. I've seen it in our GS council too. They think that just because in some areas it's easy find adults to be scout leaders and volunteers that it's all a matter of method rather than acknowledging that different areas have completely different kinds of people. When the DE couldn't get anywhere with our CC, he tried our CM, but may not realize that our CM is moving away next year and anyway, is all talk and no action. Our CM is the only one in the pack who is still talking about more recruiting, but he just thinks if he talks enough he can get someone ELSE to do the work (same way he has done, or rather not done, most of the CM jobs). All that did was to get the CM try to talk people into going along with another recruiting effort which provoked a really harsh public email rebuke from the CC (who is normally a really tactful, even-tempered man). >Do whatever you think is best and don't sweat the complaints. If your council is as non->responsive as mine you will get no help whatsoever and the DE will indeed be likely to try to >dissuade you. If you really want to go, ignore him and do it anyway. That was our first approach. We also kept it somewhat quiet. I sneakily sent out information about the new pack using direct email instead of our egroup to keep our Unit Commissioner out of it. I wanted us to be much further along in making the change before they got wind and started to make trouble. >If the other pack seems to back away, just go ahead and fill out the appropriate registration >form and let them decide NOT to allow you in. I doubt that will happen. This is a tempest in a >teapot. What are you suggesting: that we simply barge in and "crash" Pack B's pack meetings? If the pack leadership doesn't want us, I don't feel it is productive to be too aggressive about it. I'm just hoping that they will be more sympathetic when they understand that not to let us in probably means 10 boys dropping out of scouting. I've looked into other packs, but this is the only one that seems to completely fit our needs. It's so frustrating because it seems like such a perfect match---we could help them even as they help us. I've put too much time, effort, and emotional energy into this already, so I'm giving up if this attempt fails.(This message has been edited by GS-CS_leader)

If anyone is still following this thread, we've run into problems in trying to switch packs. Please see my new thread called "turf war...." also in the "Cub Scout" forum.

My tiny "dying" pack wants to join another nearby pack, however even though the school is only 2.5 miles from ours, it is in a different council. The other pack was initially enthusiastic because they lacked the two dens that we would provide. But that pack is now backing off because of the warnings of one of their committee members who knows the unit commissioner of our pack. She says that our council will "is going to scream bloody murder if our Pack picks up your members". Our CC has just written a letter to the district executive asking him to clarify the situation and to let us know if there are any "rules" preventing our boys or our dens from joining the other pack. I'd be surprised if there is any official reason that we can't join another pack, even one in a different council, but it sounds like some people may try to make it very difficult. Can anyone tell me if there are indeed any "rules" about this situation? And does anyone have advice on how best to handle this? I'm afraid the only real trump card I know we have is one we don't want to have to play: all three leaders and the CC have decided that if we are prevented from joining another pack, that we will disband and the boys will simply leave scouting. I hope that once "they" understand that, that they will relent. Here are some details: Our pack was a very small pack with only two dens even when started just 2 years ago. But next year, we'll be in a completely untenable situation when 2 families move and our CC will not be able to continue in the position due to work demands. Then we will have only 4 Webelos and 6 Bears, with no Cub Master, no Committee Chair, and no Tiger or Wolf dens. We've made earnest recruiting attempts, but I already knew from many years as a GS leader that interest by parents in scouting is quite low in our area. Also, even if the district executive could manage to find some new families, I'm not willing to deal with new parent members as CC and CM since they would be likely to have no idea about what they are supposed to do. Our pack struggled this year as it was, so I'm not the only leader in our pack who refuses to go through another year like that. The end result is that our pack finally came to the conclusion that we cannot possibly continue as our own pack next year. Our pack can't join the two other packs in our town for very definite reasons. And some of the parents are completely unwilling to go any farther for pack meetings than to the meetings of the pack we found, so other packs in the council are also not suitable. This leaves joining a nearby pack from the other council (we are only a half mile from the council line) as are only viable option. Needless to say we are dismayed by what looks like attempts to close off this option to us.

Here is a list of the requirements for bridging to Juniors: http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art30298.asp I had forgotten about the requirement for a summer activity. I'm surprised that I forgot given that I was annoyed at a parent's reponse when one of the girls was upset because she didn't earn the bridge (she was not the only one who didn't) because she did not participate in either of the two summer activities that our troop did. The mother said that she "didn't know" that participation in one of the summer activities was required even though I put it at least twice in the troop newsletter that I give out at every meeting. And since she lives across the street from me, I happen to know that the family was at home the day that we went miniature golfing (just 2 miles away), and that her mother had told me later that since they had returned from a trip the day before, they were just "too tired" to take her (they could have asked me for a ride---something I don't routinely offer because I think the other parents should be able to arrange their own carpooling, but would have done in this case). Anyway, forgive the above rant, but the point of it is that if your GS troop does something special like try to earn a bridge or other special award, you can't emphasize enough to the parents what the requirements are so that some of the girls don't fail to earn it and then be upset. I was very careful to constantly update parents on the requirements for the Junior Bronze Award. I am so relieved that they all earned it. Luckily, some of the troop activities that some girls missed they were able to do on their own.(This message has been edited by GS-CS_leader)

About levels of GS: There is an overlap year between each of the GS levels which makes it easier to keep a two-grade level troop together. So you don't have to split into Brownies and Juniors next year. Also, if they all start as Juniors, the younger ones won't need new vests and books after only a year. My own troop has both 5th and 6th graders (and an 8th grader, but that's another story...) Girl Scout program and grade levels or age: Daisies: K-grade 1 Brownies: grades 1-3 Juniors: grades 3-6 "Teens" or "Studio 2B": "ages 11-17 (note most 11 year olds are in 6th grade) or if you want to continue to use the old designations, "Cadettes": grades 6-9, "Seniors": grades 9-12 In general, I find that the programs work best for most girls to split the levels like this: K, 1-3, 3-6, 7-9, 10-12 I am lucky in that most of the younger girls in my troop have winter birthdays, so are a little older than other girls in their grade. A truly multi-level troop is really hard to lead, but a troop with only a year difference in age does not require much more accomodation than a troop with all girls in the same grade since the ability and maturity levels of girls of the same age will vary. [side note: When I started as a leader, my co-leader could never say "no" so we had girls ranging in age from K - grade 6. No single program is appropriate for that full range, and you can't always have the older girls helping the younger girls or they will get bored. I nearly burned myself out by trying to hold separate meetings and did an overnight with just the older girls (even though my own daughter was one of the younger girls).} I was actually a Camp Fire Girl as a child, although now I am a GS and CS leader as you can tell by my username. Our "fly-up" from "Blue Birds" to "Camp Fire Girl" was done as a ceremony with our DADS. Many of the camping theme songs we sang are the same as the ones that GS sing, so you can still have them sing those. I would certainly use the a campfire with it's obvious connection to "Camp Fire". Definitely see if you can get help from an established troop of older girls. There is even a special award for Juniors called the "Junior Aide" award for helping wtih a younger troop. The badge for it goes in a prominent place on the vest near the Rainbow "bridge" patch, so I think it is a very special badge. Even though your girls won't really spend time as Brownies, it might be nice for them to do the "bridging to Juniors" activities (see Brownie handbook) and still get the the pretty rainbow "bridge" badge. And here is a way that it is not even bending the rules: If you start in May, then the girls need to register for the 2005-06 year since GSUSA goes Oct 1 to Oct 1 instead of calendar year like BSA. So register them all as "Brownies". In May, introduce them to GS by presenting them with a GS membership pin (well, it should be a Brownie pin, but only do that if your troop has plenty of extra funds), and if the troop will be buying the Junior book(s), then give those to them as well. [My girls just have a badge book and only I have the Junior handbook]. Since you don't have to earn anything to be a Brownie (unlike the CS ranks), they are automatically "Brownies" as soon as they register with GSUSA. Then in the summer, or next fall if you don't meet in the summer, the girls can work on the "bridging" requirements (basically learning about Junior GS and doing a few GS activities as well as meeting some older GS). Then do a "bridging" ceremony and present them with their Green vests (and GS pins if you gave them Brownie pins in the beginning) (Note that most GS wear the vest rather than the sash these days). When the girls re-register in the fall, register them as "Juniors". By the way, since your girls would not have actually spent time as Brownies, it would not really be correct to give them the "Brownie wings" badge.

Getting back to the topic of Bible stories in "Boy's Life": My family chose not to subscribe to the magazine when my son joined Cub Scouts because my husband flipped through a current issue and was uncomfortable with the Christian feel of the Bible stories since our family is Jewish. My husband was a BS back in the 70's and did not remember "Boys Life" being quite as Christian. Interestingly, we may end up with a subscription after all because we are thinking of switching to a pack (our current pack is folding) that automatically provides a subscription as part of the required pack fee. Luckily, we don't feel so strongly about it that this is a problem. I'm probably going to pre-read the magazine when it comes so that I address anything I feel does not agree with my family's religious background. Christians may think that any Old Testament story should be fine for Jews, but they may not realize, because the story is told the way they have are used to seeing it, that the story is being told with a *Christian*, not Jewish emphasis. I personally find it fascinating to see the differences between Christian versions of the Bible and modern Jewish translations. If we get the magazine, and I often need to explain to my son why although the story is from the Hebrew Bible, Jews have a somewhat different way of looking at it, I wonder if my son will begin to feel that the BSA is Christian and therefore that he doesn't really belong in it. I think it would be even more the case for boys who are not Christian or Jewish. Yes, they can "learn" from the stories in the same way that they can learn from Greek myths, but the magazine publishes clearly gives a preference to the particular brand of Christianity expressed in those stories. I'm not sure that I would want the Bible stories to be replaced with a story from a different culture in each magazine issue, but I do know that I am not happy with all the stories being told from the same religious point of view. My son can get religious stories from a wonderful Jewish magazine that his Hebrew school uses as a teaching tool. And I'm sure that there are equivalent religious magazines for other kids of other religions too. I think it would be better for the magazine to concentrate more on those aspects of scouting that are more universal and let families get their religious magazine content from sources that best fits their own beliefs.

I am truly shocked at the insensitivity of some of the responders to this thread. Do people not understand that while this country is wealthy overall, there are areas with true poverty? My former GS co-leader told me about families she met in rural Kentucky who lived in shacks without running water. They got their drinking water from a nearby, probably polluted, stream and did not understand why she brought her own water with her when she came to babysit. Some of the school kids were found to be saving parts of their free school lunches to bring back home to younger siblings. The problem is that if people don't think about it and give you solutions that work only in their own wealthier suburban areas, the ideas won't work in a poor rural area. I'm sure that many of the boys in the troop of the original post already do all the money-earning things suggested - to help pay for their families' rent and basic needs like food. I remember how touched my mother was when she had her own business and learned that a young teenaged boy who worked for them put every penny toward his family's rent, unlike some of the other teenagers from wealthier families who just wanted to make extra money to spend on frivolous things. Second hand stores and rummage sales are only good resources in areas where there are many troops (probably not the case in the poor rural area mentioned) and where lots of families can just buy the uniforms and give them away when outgrown (since they don't need to pass them on to younger brothers). Problem with Ebay is that most sellers will have only a few items and once you add in shipping costs it probably isn't going to save you enough to make it much easier to outfit a whole troop. As for fundraising, I think that many of the traditional fundraisers will not work for troops in such an impoverished area because they depend on other people in the area to have the money to spare to buy items or services. In the poor area described with such high rates of free/reduced price lunch qualifying kids, the relatives and neighbors of the scouts are just as impoverished. The usual fundraisers work best in areas with plenty of disposable income so you are basically giving people an way to donate money without feeling that they are just giving the money away. And in the case of "spaghetti dinners" like the one I attended this weekend, the attendees may feel like they saved money compared to a restaurant meal they might have had instead. So I think the idea of looking for corporate or other sponsorship is a better idea. However, you should check into your council's rules on this kind of activity since individual troops may be prohibited from soliciting businesses as this may be the prerogative of the council. I'm somewhat new to the BSA world, but I do know that my GS council prohibits troops from soliciting businesses. If my son were of bar mitzvah age (still a few years off), I know what I would suggest to him as a service project (required by both the synagogue where he attends Hebrew school and the smaller congregation where we attend services): do a BS uniform collection for a needy troop. He would find the sizes of the boys who need uniforms and ask the various troops which already have uniform closets if they would consider donating one uniform item, as well as ask current scouts if they have any outgrown uniforms in their own closets that they would like to donate. "Collections" of various kinds are a favorite type of service project in my area. Ironically, the one thing I would fear is that he might be inundated with uniforms such that it could get a lot more complicated to find suitable troops for them all. (For their Bronze Award, my GS troop collected 100 lbs of sports uniforms for impoverished kids in a Central American country and spent $65 of troop money to ship it to an embassy in Florida.) I don't know much about Eagle Scout projects, but I assume that they are supposed to be benefit the larger community and not just within scouting as this project would be? On a further personal note: I am SO glad that my husband and I decided to live in our town which is economically mixed (as well as ethnically diverse). 15% of the kids at our public school qualify for reduced price lunches, while other kids have parents who are doctors and regularly take family vacations to far-off places (which is how my GS co-leader had a connection in Central America). We briefly considered the town just north of us which is more affluent and much less diverse, but I did not want the only non-wealthy non-white people my kids would meet to be the housecleaners of their friend's homes.(This message has been edited by GS-CS_leader)

This stuff is nearly perfect for my needs. More details follow. For bulk order information from the manufacturer, see bottom of this post. I tested the "Badge Magic" on my troop of 4th and 5th grade girls who had a bunch of badges and patches that I wanted to get on their vests so that they could wear them before they "bridge" and get new vests in the fall. We used the "merit badge" pre-cut circles and the "cut-to-fit". I was worried that the merit badge circles seemed to stick out a bit around their Junior badges, so I had them trim the circles to the inner circular line. But when I emailed the "Badge Magic" company, they told me that the circles are meant to keep the edges from peeling and that the excess usually shrinks back after the adhesive is "set" in the dryer. But it is only a little harder to use the "cut-to-fit" for small circular badges, and it is more economical because you can place them with less wasted space between them. The product has worked fine so far. The girls were able to do it easily by themselves. The only slight error was that one of the girls who doesn't have patience to do things carefully, did not cut the adhesive carefully to the contours of an irregular house-shaped patch with corners that stuck out, but just cut a rough rectangle much smaller than the size of the patch. So of course, the edges are free. At the next meeting, I'm going to help her to cut some additional small pieces to stick down the edges and I'll remind my scouts that they should to cut the adhesive to be as close as possible to the shape and size of the patch. At about $7 per 8.5" x 12" or $7.25 for official Scout Stuff 8.5" x 13" cut-to-fit, it is a bit expensive. But you can get quite a few patches on a cut-to-fit sheet if you place your patches really carefully to minimize waste. The pre-cut sheets may be even easier, but there is a lot of wasted space around the patch shapes and a total waste of shapes for patches that you don't need (although you may be able to cut out a smaller patch from those unused shapes). It was hard to draw on the "badge magic" cover paper so that it showed due to the printed designs on the paper. This is how I did it: I used a regular pen to draw around the badge on a plain white piece of paper. I cut the shape out of the white paper trimming it a bit smaller. Then I put that pattern on the "badge magic" cover paper and used a dark permanent marker to draw around the plain paper pattern. This worked especially well for us given that we were cutting out many copies of the same shapes since we had a whole troop of girls with many of the same patches. "Badge Magic" is definitely faster and easier than any of the other no-sew patch attach methods. It takes less time than putting on an iron-on patch (and you can use "badge magic" on iron-on patches too), and no irons to heat up or be careful about using. Easier to get the right shape and have the edges attached but not have unsightly extra glue showing around the edges than the glue-type "badge bond" or a hot glue gun (and the latter doesn't hold that long.) Although I got it for the girls in my troop who resist sewing, I've realized that I can use just a small piece on irregular patches to help hold the patch in place while I machine or hand sew. Because it is somewhat expensive and not necessary for girls willing to do their own sewing, I'm going to buy some with troop money only for the basic non-iron-on badges for their new vests so that I can have them all get their vests ready in one meeting and I can help them with placement which is tricky if they want to leave room for specific places for future badges. I am going to have the girls use very small pieces of "badge magic" just to hold the iron-on council ID strips and troop #'s in place so that they don't slip while being attached with the iron. But it seems a waste to use "badge magic" when the iron-on patches can be attached without it. I will require the girls' families to pay for any other "badge magic" themselves if they want to use it for all their other badges and patches, but I'll buy it in bulk (see below) so that they don't all have to drive to the nearest BSA office which is 25 min away, and it will save some money. Since you can save more on shipping the larger the bulk order, I may even see if I can get together a really big bulk order from my whole GS service unit. I think that a lot of families would love to be able to use this product because a lot of them hate to sew on patches. Our council does not carry the product in it's shops, so the BSA shops or online are the only options in our area as far as I can tell. Information on purchasing badge magic: The official Boy Scout pre-cut sheets can only be purchased through official BSA shops, not directly from the company. However, the Girl Scout pre-cut sheets and the cut-to-fit sheets can be purchased from the website: http://www.badgemagic.com Here is information I got about bulk order discounts: "We couldn't agree more about the high shipping costs. It costs a lot more than $2.50 to send one kit (in addition to the postage there is the envelope, mailing label, and the time involved to do the invoice, receipt, and credit card processing) but at 3 kits it works out about right for us and the customer, and that happens to be what most people order. For larger orders, it doesn't work so well. That is why we offer a free Cut-to-Fit kit with every order of 4 or more regular kits and a free upgrade to Priority Shipping with 5 or more. In effect, this lowers the shipping cost by $6.95 on a 4 kit order. If you would like to place a "bulk order" for any of the Girl Scout type kits we would be happy to offer a free kit with each 5 purchased. We would then ship UPS and charge you $5.00 handling (what we get charged) plus the actual UPS charge (usually $5-10 depending on distance and weight). You would need to order in multiples of 10 kits and would receive 12 kits, as this is how they are packed for bulk delivery. For instance, if you ordered 20 Cut to Fit kits, we would send 24. Just let me know what you need in an e-mail. We will then do a credit card transaction by phone and we will ship within 1 business day. This offer only applies to the kits for girls as we cannot sell Boy Scout kits directly."

Most religions and belief systems believe that they are "correct"; the few that don't think that no one knows for sure what is true. I myself believe that some of my beliefs are irrational, but does it mean anything for a person to believe that his "beliefs" are wrong? However, there ARE some religions that believe that theirs is only one of many true paths. For example, the Bahai, Hindu, Unitarian/Universalist religions all believe in the validity of other religions. So while they believe that they are right, they don't think everyone else is wrong, let alone "damned" (a concept that doesn't exist in most non-Christian religions). I'll admit that the tolerant religions seem to be far outnumbered by the ones who think everyone else is wrong, but I think it is important to recognize that tolerant religions do exist. I think I understand why someone like GernBlansten might have a negative view of religion in general, but it's always true that some can give the rest of a group a bad name. That's why I always remind the CS in my den that they must try especially hard to behave well when out in public in their CS uniform: when people see them in uniform, they may tend to associate what they see with CS in general.(This message has been edited by GS-CS_leader)

ScoutNut: thanks for your input. To reply to your post: > What difference will that make? Most councils do not require that you sign up > as a Pack/Den or be a member of the council to attend their Summer Camps. If we did change packs and councils, I wanted to be able to attend camp with our new pack since I think that would be a great way to get to know some of them. In fact, having looked more closely at the neighboring town's council's website, I have decided that we should definitely switch to a pack in that council. For one thing, our neighboring district's RT location is only 2 miles from my house whereas our current district RT is about a half hour drive away. (This year, our pack was almost never represented at the RT, but I'm sure that people would go if it was closer.) The district Pinewood Derby and training classes are also much closer for the neighboring district. And the neighboring town has many more CS packs and BS troops, so I think we'll have more opportunities to do events with other packs who are from our area. So that solves the summer camp dilemma because I can just sign us up for camp with the neighboring council. I can always change sessions if our "new" pack is going to a different session. Both councils have only 2-day or 4-day weekend camp sessions for Cub Scouts. I've recently spoken to the CM of one potential pack to join (whom I corresponded with earlier through another Scouter forum thread!). They are definitely going to attend one and maybe two camp sessions---one camp is relatively close, one is 5.5 hours away. And at least one other family from our den is potentially interested in attending camp with us. Actually, having talked at length to the other pack's CM that I mentioned above, I feel much less anxious about our den's future. I'm now more confident that we will be able to find another pack to join. As far as starting a new pack with "our synagogue" (we're not Reform jews, so we don't use the term "temple" which we reserve for "the Temple" in Jerusalem which was destroyed twice and has yet to be rebuilt): it's complicated, but it won't work with either of the two congregations in which we are members. And I don't want a synagogue-affiliated pack. Half of our den members and half of our current pack members are not Jewish. If I had wanted a Jewish pack, we would have joined the one at the Orthodox Jewish day school before our pack was even re-started. If you are curious about why it wouldn't work to start packs with either of the congregations that we are members of (even if we were interested), you can read on: The congregation that we are very active with and where we attend services nearly every Saturday is a small lay-led "minyan" of about 60 families. The Minyan doesn't have it's own building, so it rents space from a synagogue with an entirely elderly and thus ever-shrinking membership. The Minyan does not have its own Hebrew school because most of the Minyan's children attend Jewish day schools. The synagogue is several miles from where we live, in "the city" and we are one of the few families who are not within walking distance of it because many of the members do not drive on the Sabbath. I don't think other boys from the Minyan would be interested in Cub Scouts (I know of only one other family in the Minyan who does any camping) and the besides that Minyan already had to levy extra funds to support its small youth group which has also been struggling because it's very small due to the congregation's small size. Since we send our kids to public school (which is why we live in a nearby suburb with good schools), we also became members of a synagogue that used to be less than a mile from our house, to be able to send our kids to its Hebrew school. However, that synagogue had trouble attracting younger families and less than two years ago merged with a larger more vibrant synagogue in the town north of us. That's the "affluent" community that I mentioned in a previous post, and my son gets along with only one or two boys in his Hebrew school class (note gang bullying mentioned in another previous post). We went to some family events at the synagogue after the merger, but have stopped doing so because it's just not our kind of place. So I wouldn't want to do anything more with that synagogue.

I'm just thankful (to "God"?) that the current national BSA officials (or local officials with the power to revoke a person's BSA membership) are unable to read minds and thus determine whether or not any individual's "belief in God" conforms to what THEY think it needs to be in order to be a member of the BSA. Otherwise, I'm quite sure that a lot of good people, both scouts and scouters, would be kicked out, including many people who are not simply atheists or agnostics. I think that the BSA policy-makers either do not understand or would like to ignore the fact that many religions do not have belief systems that even remotely resemble those in Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. However, they know that it would be problematic (for both government sponsorship as well as general PR) if they started to have an official list of permissible religions and required official religious organization membership, or even if they explicitly excluded particular religions. But for many religions, it is not simply that they use a different name for "God", but rather their concepts of one, many, or no dieties, are just completely different from Christianity. (Note that believing in a religion that doesn't really have any kind of diety like the Christian God is not the same as being an atheist.) On the other hand, I also know individuals with these different beliefs for whom if you look at all their *actions* you would find that they are models of all the scouting ideals in all other ways. And if those BSA officials could read MY mind? It would depend on when they chose to peek into my thoughts, as my own religious beliefs have varied over my lifetime.

Good points, Lisabob. I'd thought of two of your points, but not put them explicitly on my list. You are right that we need to remember to keep the boys needs and feelings in mind---they are the reason that we're going to all this trouble! Activities: I'll definitely ask about activities. In fact, I'll ask to see den and pack calendars for the previous couple of years if they have them. I've already taken a peek at one possible packs calendars that they have on a website. It certainly gives you an idea of how active the dens and packs are. The other reason that I've been looking carefully at calendars (in addition to the scheduling restrictions we have) is that it gives me some idea of whether we are likely to be the only moderately observant Jewish family (one of the other boys in our den is also Jewish, but less observant). For example, if some of the packs take use the Jewish high holidays to do events because the local schools have the day off (I know of a GS troop that does this even though strictly speaking it is forbidden by our council), then we know that religious observance is something we'd better discuss. Summer camp: I was already going to ask about summer camp. I and possibly my husband as well are planning to take my son to Cub Scout summer resident camp this year while my daughter is away for a couple of weeks at a GS camp doing backpacking. I feel bad that he's missed out compared to his sister whom I've taken on numerous camping and overnight trips in the past 7 years of being the leader of her GS troop. I'm hoping that we will have an idea of whether we'll be switching packs and councils before the early bird registration for reduced fees ends. The DL of our den will be out of the country for much of the summer, and I don't think any of the boys are ready for a multi-night trip away from family anyway (one is even autistic!), but I was going to see if other parents would like to take to join me with their sons. The day camps of both councils are too far away from where we live to be practical. One thing I didn't mention before is that I've definitely ruled out one pack. I noticed on their website that the leader of the Bear den is the father of a boy who has bullied my son in Hebrew school. The boy even got a whole group of boys to gang up on my son (and the other boys admitted it when confronted and apologized, so I know that it was not just a story made up by my son and daughter who witnessed the bullying). There have been numerous incidents and I won't say that my son has always responded in the best way, but I'd sooner have him quit CS then to put him in a den or pack with that boy.

Update on my situation and request for more advice: Our Feb rally night was a bust. Only one family of a kindergartner showed up. They were interested, but have not returned calls and did not attend a committee meeting they were invited to. I think they were not really interested once they realized that they would have to start up a den themselves rather than just having their grandson (who lives with them) join a den run by someone else. At our the last pack committee meeting, the current CC pointed out that with our pack's small size (down to 11 families next year after two move), nearly all the families that are able are already providing a leader or are on the committee and have organized a pack event. Most of the other families have circumstances (such as starting new jobs) that make it difficult to help out. No one has volunteered to be CM or CC next year and the people who were at the committee meeting were able to verify that they had talked to the families who were not there and that they would not be willing to take those positions. So it was clear to those of us at the meeting, that finding another pack to merge with is probably our best option. Then the current CM (who is moving from the area this summer!) arrived late and declared that "we" need to try to recruit again and just do a better "sales job". That burned me up because he was poorly informed as to what efforts had already been made and I think that he expects that someone else is going follow up on his suggestions and do all the work of another recruiting effort. A council staff person did do an assembly at the school and did get the boys excited according to my son. The problem was that the parents were not interested. And we have already flyered the other two elementary schools in the district, but scouting interest in our area is really quite low. So the CC told the CM that he was free to do whatever he wanted (on his own with anyone who wants to join him), but that he had only until the end of the month to come up with at least 5 new registered boys AND 2 adults to fill the open positions. Suffice it to say that it's not going to happen. After discussing the situation with the DL of our den (I'm the ADL, but we will probably switch roles next year), we've decided to seek out another pack for our den to join. Next year, our den will have only 4 boys after two of them move and we expect that the other two families would be willing to change packs with us. The packs that seem the most promising are in the council next door (we live only a half mile from the council border). Questions for the experienced scouters out there who have been reading this thread: What should we be looking for and considering? This is what we have thought of: - Does the other pack seem happy with the prospect of our joining them or would it reluctantly allow us in only because they don't like to turn people away? - Pack meeting date (DL and ADL families have fairly restrictive schedules) - Stability and committed pack leadership (no sense leaving one pack to join another that is also on the verge of folding) - Our boys and adults feeling comfortable with the others: I definitely feel that we must attend a pack meeting to see if it feels like a good fit before making any decisions. - Similar social-economic range of the pack. I'm leery of joining some of the packs in the town north of us which is considerably more affluent. Some packs require large family financial contributions and tend to do expensive activities and trips with most of the cost paid by the families. But at least one of our 4 families has struggled with a parent being laid off and difficulty in finding another job. The town east of us has a mix of family backgrounds more similar to our neighborhood. (At our elementary school 17% of the families qualify for reduced price lunches, but some of the families have parents who are doctors and other high paid professionals.) - I think we are willing to either join a small pack in which we would welcomed as an enhancement to the pack (coming with 4 boys and 2 adult leaders), or to join a much larger pack that is easily able to absorb us, perhaps even having our boys simply join an established den. Any other issues we should think about? (This message has been edited by GS-CS_leader)

Warning about staples: use small staples. I once used staples for a Halloween costume to attach a "tail" to a pair of sweatpants and in some places the staples sheared the threads of the fabric and made small holes. I can't quite remember if that happened when one of the Brownie moms in my troop used that method to attach patches. When I sew on patches either by hand or machine, I use a couple small pieces of masking tape to hold the patch on, removing the tape as I get up to that spot. Next time I use the machine, I'll try the clear packing tape mentioned by sweetspiritpamh. The "invisible" thread is really great in that you don't have to match color, but it is difficult to tie off because it is so thin. Comment about machine sewing: a running stitch is adequate and easier than a zig zag which has to be done precisely on the edge of the patch. Just run right along the inside of the border. However, I when I did not secure the edges of the pack numbers the edges started fraying after a few washes. So I went back and used a zig-zag stitch with a machine, and a whip stitch for hand sewing also seems to work from what I have seen on other shirts. Another comment about my GS troop's possible use of a no-sew alternative like "badge magic". They will use it on ceremonial vests, not shirts. The vests are not subject to heavy duty wear (we don't use them when we are camping or doing anything really active) and they do not need to be washed as often as shirts. The only time they are likely to even get really sweaty is if we march in our town's July 4th parade. So the vests are unlikely to be washed more than the 25 times mentioned by shanve. Thanks to everyone who replied to this forum. I've decided to try this product next month on some badges for my troop's Junior vests. I'll show them how to apply the stuff and they'll all do it right at the meeting, so I can see how it works out for them. They will only be using their Junior vests until the end of the school year since they will be bridging. Since they won't be wearing their Junior vests much longer, if we don't like the way the "badge magic" works, it's not a big loss. If we have a good experience with the product, we'll use it next fall for their new khaki "Cadette" vests when they will have a lot of basic insignia to put on including a couple of non-edged patches that are hard to sew on by hand. After seeing Scoutnuts "scolding", I've decided to devote the first meeting next year to helping all the girls get their new vests ready instead of doing most of it myself. I recently looked at my daughter's Junior vest and realized that I bought the old non-iron-on council ID badges for them since they were cheaper and they would give the girls more sewing practice. So the only badges I ironed on for them were the troop numbers. At next year's patch attachment meeting, I'll be there to make sure the basic badges are placed correctly and I'll still encourage the girls to tack the badges with a few stitches even if we use the badge magic.

As you will see if you browse these forums, there is a lot of variation in troops---some are well-organized and some are on the verge of collapsing; some are very safe and some are "an accident waiting to happen". Try to get to know the adults who are involved in the program. Are they the type of people who follow rules carefully or not? Even if troops are ideally "boy-led", I think it is usually the adults who set the tone for the troop. If possible, try to attend some programs and events. You'll see for yourself if the boys are running around wildly ignoring safety rules or if safety rules are taken seriously (e.g. Do boys lose their Tote'n'Chip for violating knife safety rules?) If it's a good troop, you'll be reassured. If not, look for another better one. A well-run troop that takes safety seriously could be the ideal way for your son to be able to experience the adventure he craves. A good troop will give him plenty of training. It's sure better than having him go off and try stuff on his own without knowing what he is doing. Also, I agree that BS can be good for boys without fathers who are good role models. My husband's dad died when he was only 6, and then his mom died when he was 10. He credits his SM with teaching him a lot of important moral values. I heard the same thing from a man who made Eagle Scout and is now a GS leader for his daughters. He told me that his father was abusive, so his main positive male role models were from BS.

Ah yes, I should have realized that somewhere there had to be info on the Internet about the history of the BSA. Here's a website that answered most of my questions: http://www.troop97.net/bsahist1.htm But no information in the above about the "segment" patches that go around in circles on the red CS vest. Anyone know when those were introduced? It seems strange to me that there are no standards or formal requirements for these. Some packs seem to go nuts over them, giving them out for what amounts to doing little more than a 10 min activity. Last year our CM gave out three segments just for attending a single campfire program. (Can you tell that I disapprove making the patches that "cheap" to "earn"?) Any comments on how your pack uses these segment patches?

In 1969, I started as a 2nd grade "Blue Bird" which was the equivalent in Camp Fire Girls to "Brownies" for Girl Scouts. (Incidentally, CFG pre-dates GSUSA by a year or two and back in the 60's and 70's at least was actually much more similar to BSA than GS, except for the name.) I seem to remember that Cub Scouts did not start until 3rd grade back then. So does that mean that Wolf and Bear Cubs used to be 3rd and 4th graders respectively? Then Lion would be 5th grade, so Boy Scouts would be for 6th grade, as it pretty much is today, except for the Webelos who get their arrow of light and enter BS in the second half of 5th grade. So did the names change age groups at some point? If so, then does that mean that their were a few cohorts that "skipped" a designation because the grades changed while they were in CS? (At least the names didn't move in the opposite direction causing boys to have to "repeat" a rank!) I've gotta say that I wish the BSA had stuck to the single uniform for all of CS. Buying a different cap, neckerchief, and recently even a different neckerchief slide for every year in CS is not a huge expense, but why not make it easier for less affluent families who already have to search second hand shops for the rest of the uniform parts? (which are pretty expensive for the basic clothes that they are---I guess because they want them to be "made in USA"?) I think it it interesting that BS usually had it's youngest program a year older than the youngest program in GS. Girl Scout currently has Daisy GS for kindergartners and there are even a few pre-school kids in it. It does tend to be as other people have mentioned in other forums more of a play group situation for the really young kids in these groups. There has also been a migration of earned badges moving down into the younger age groups where they didn't used to be part of the program. GSUSA used to say that badges for young kids weren't good because they were so young that they tended to fixate on the badge instead of on the meaning of what they were learning. I guess they changed their minds because now they even have "Daisy petals" for the kindergartners. I'm curious: can one of you middle-aged former CS tell me if there were the CS rank badges when you were a CS?

I don't buy replacement badges. The council shop is 20 miles away, so the girls are not going to do it either, and I don't think they are supposed to be able to buy their own earned badges. I've warned the girls and their parents sternly that they should not expect to be able to replace badges and patches if lost. In the case of participation patches, you can't buy replacements anyway. They don't care about lost patches as much as I do, but it irritates ME to go to the trouble of keeping track of which ones have been earned by which girls, buying them, and sorting them to be awarded, only to have them get lost. (Yes, I know that some of that should become their responsibility now that they are older, but the buying part will probably always be my responsibility). I'm not going to use the badge magic to put all their badges on for them (I think the GS leader who does that is overly coddling his scouts), but I want to know if it is worthwhile to let the girls know about this option for badge attachment. If it doesn't work, then I won't even mention it. I only put on the basic insignia fon their new vests for them because the placement of those items matters, especially since if you put them only in relative positions, but don't plan well, there won't be space for badges earned later. This is the wrong forum to discuss the GSUSA teen programs. (I'm planning to add my two cents to that forum later) However, I feel compelled to respond to your comment about "Cadettes" (and those of you not interested, need not read further): When they brought out the Studio 2B program, I was told by the person who probably knew most about it in my council that they were completely getting rid of the Cadette and Senior programs. I asked the national office about this and was told that they were not eliminating the Interest Project badges which were the basic awards in the old programs. As far as the "Cadette" designation---GSUSA is replacing all references to this age group with "Studio 2B", but they also say that girls may choose to call themselves by the old designation if they wish. In the same way, GSUSA has not rescinded its policy that girls may use any handbooks they choose, not just the more recent ones. I think this is nice since it does not force girls to buy all new books just because a new edition comes out after they bought the old one. And at this time, they are keeping the old Interest Project program. In fact, they've added some new ones (which I rather like) just this year, so I think they heard the outcry from current girls and leaders and will keep that program. Also, the "bridge" patches from Juniors to Cadettes and Cadettes to Seniors are still available. If there are bridges to Seniors, then that designation must still exist since Studio 2B does not divide up the 11-17 age range. My troop has discussed Studio 2B and Cadettes and they surprised me by wanting to stay with the traditional program, uniform, and designation. That made me happy since I'm a traditionalist and was not very comfortable with the new "hip" Studio 2B program which seemed to reinforce rather than counteract the gender stereotyping of girls being more interested in elationships, "body image", etc instead of DOING things like service projects, outdoor activities, etc.

Thank you ASM59 for responding to my post. Sounds like the badge magic has some of the same problems as the spray-type "patch attach", so you have to be careful when you use it. But at least it doesn't smell toxic and doesn't require 24 hours to cure. But since you didn't mention problems with the badges falling off (my main concern) it sounds like it might meet my needs. I'm thinking of using it for the girls' "Sign of the Star" badge. I really want to make sure that they are placed right (it's a special kind of badge that has a particular position), but I don't think I want to use up time in a meeting to make them sew it on and I know that they won't all do it themselves at home. And if it's a little less than perfect, they are getting new Cadette vests in the fall anyway. When most of these girls were in 3rd and 4th grade and getting new green Junior vests, I planned a "sewing" meeting in which I had the girls create sewing kits so they would definitely have the materials at home to sew on their patches and I taught them the techniques for sewing on various patches. The mother who had unsuccessfully used a glue gun for patches earlier attended the meeting because I had requested adult help, but she was not letting her daughter do any of her own sewing. When I gently suggested that she should allow her daughter to do it, she snapped "That's the problem---she CAN'T!" So I just quietly took the vest and very carefully showed her daughter how to do it: first holding the vest with the patch making taped on and just having her poke with the needle, and then moving on to having her do it more on her own. Of course, she was able to do it it herself, and she had the satisfaction of learning a new skill. (One of those glorious "scouting moments"!) That incident certainly helped me to understand why that girl, although very smart and capable, often has little patience in trying new things, announcing in just seconds "I can't do it!" (Gave me motivation to continue to be a GS leader, since I felt that I could make a difference in these girls' lives.) The girls are now 2.5 years older, so I know that the girls are ABLE to sew on their patches. But I believe that they still think of sewing on patches as difficult. If I use the "badge magic" for one of their badges, I'm pretty sure that some of them will want to use it for the rest of their badges even after I point out that to do it carefully enough that it doesn't look bad probably takes the same amount of time as sewing. I know that I found that the new GSUSA council ID patches take about as much time to iron on as to sew them on. But I think it is the perception of difficulty of the method that will make the difference to them. And I'd rather that they used any way to firmly attach their badges rather than lose them. Perhaps these forums are the wrong kind of place to ask about a "short cut" method. I'm beginning to think that the kind of dedicated scouters who participate in these kind of forums are happily sewing on patches and not looking for an easier way to do it, so haven't tried the "badge magic".

Great idea about making fabric vests. I think that since the vests aren't an official part of the dress uniform it isn't even a problem for people who follow uniforming policies down to the socks. My guess is that the official ones are made of felt for the same reason that my old Camp Fire Girls vest from the 70's is made of felt: cheaper to make because no binding or hemming required around the edges. However, I've seen some of the current Camp Fire girls and boys (it's co-ed now) with their vests and it looks like they are made of fabric these days. Felt is not very sturdy and can't be washed---not very practical for the typical rough and tumble Cub Scout. Probably a good thing that since a felt vest is a bit too warm for active wear, it seems that they never wear them for long. That said, I'm too out of practice in sewing to do that---last time I sewed a complete item of clothing was about 30 years ago---I use my sewing machine to alter clothes, hem pants, and since my kids have been in scouts, to sew on patches. I've altered a number of items of clothing since it's hard to find things in my size. I'm a small enough woman that I wear a BSA youth large shirt which fits me much better than a women's size S. One reason that I don't have official BSA pants is that they don't have my size (hips too small for women's S, but too large compared to waist for boys youth sizes) and it seems like getting one custom made would be a hassle. Anyone out there have experience with specially sized BSA uniforms? The other issue is that I really don't have time to make vests for all the boys and I don't think anyone in the other families has the skills to do it. But maybe your post will inspire others to make fabric vests which are certainly more practical as well as better looking.

Yes, I agree that sewing is best. And for the patches with a sewn binding, I can hand sew one as fast as I can machine sew it. My own daughter sews on her own badges although I help her by machine sewing the irregularly shaped ones with no edge that are difficult to hand-sew. And I'll continue to sew on all my sons patches until he has the coordination to be taught to do it himself. When the girls in my GS troop bridge to Cadettes in the fall, I'll probably sew on all the insignia onto all their vests for those badges like the Brownie wings and rainbow bridges that don't come as iron-on (as the council ID strips and troop numbers do now). I put on all the basic insignia on all the green Junior vest when they flew up from Brownies because I wanted them to be put on correctly and put on before they were lost as so many patches are. I know of a GS leader who I've been told sews on ALL the badges and patches of ALL the girls in his troop (yes, no typo, he's male), but I'm not that dedicated. I also wonder if he's stopped doing that now that he's not between jobs so he probably has less free time. Anyway, the problem is that many of the girls in my troop keep losing their patches because they don't get around to sewing them on. So I'm looking for an alternative for them, not me.