goodkidsmom

Yes, Boleta, I agree completely. Because of your son's experience that you related in earlier posts, I stated in the appeal that it be backdated. I felt that we were asking for the earlier decision to be overturned and corrected, and though the date has no practical significance, it is a matter of principle. I was surprised when the council advancement committee scheduled GoodKid a new BOR rather than just responding to what we said had been wrong with the old one (and the old SM conference for that matter). If we had wanted a new BOR we could have done that in the old troop or new troop and probably been done with it earlier! After the CAC BOR this week I asked about backdating it, butthey said it had to be dated on the day it occurred, and that THIS was the actual BOR. GoodKid was just happy to have it over with and didn't care about the details, and was pressing me to not complain. In hindsight, I guess I should have talked to Council Advancement Chair about the process and potential outcomes. Oh well, it's over, and GoodKid is happy and already signing up for several upcoming outings with his new troop. GKM

I hadn't thought of that.....but I kind of doubt it, as he's been the District Advancement Chair and Troop Committee Chair forever. Nobody even remembers when his own son(s?) were in scouting. He really hasn't seemed like a bad guy most of the time......and we do admire those who volunteer all that time long after their own kids turn 18. I wish I could be a fly on the wall when/if anyone from the Council talks to him and SM about their advancement procedures. I hope it's "when", and not "if".

I also use staples, with a fairly long stapler so I can reach down into the pocket. Then I sew it by hand alternating l-o-n-g stitches inside the pocket with tiny stitches up through the patch. I like AuntGuinea's method, though, and will try that next time. The little plastic envelope jobbies that hold a patch and dangle from the pocket's button are another solution, but I think they're kind of tacky. A related question to consider is WHY the two pockets have patches that periodically get changed, while the ones that rarely if ever get changed are on the sleeves and other areas where you CAN sew by machine? Yeah, I know, "We've always done it this way". Wouldn't it be nice if the BSA revised its patch placement to be more practical? A brief anecdote.....one evening my father was sewing a bunch of my sister's girl scout badge on her sash, asking "what's this one for?" about each one. Her answer for the third or fourth badge was "sewing" - and that was the end of Dad's sewing service!

Great suggestions, Eamonn. GK has been going to the new troop's meetings for about a month and a half already, and the new SM plans to have him work on a troop website and probably be troop guide next time the leadership positions change (it's a young troop). Mr. GK (Love it!) will be on the new troop's adult committee and so will I, and new SM has already gotten us to sign up to be MB counselors. I love your suggestion of being on the District advancement committee, EXCEPT that the old troop's CC is also the District Advancement Chair. If/when that changes, I think I'll follow up on your idea! Thanks GKM

No, it's not a requirement . We hadn't cc'd COR in the appeal letter written months ago, and were advised to let him know - in writing - why we're leaving the troop. Leaving the troop has little to do with the need to file an appeal for rank, but it might look that way if we don't clarify the real reason. The highly edited version is that SM is not a good role model ......no need to expand on that here, though some of the details are in my l-o-n-g posts earlier. GKM

For those who responded to my posts below (SM trying to change son's personality and Situation worse), tonight Good Kid had a special BOR in front of the Council Advancement Committee, including various Council and District people. It was short and friendly and he was approved for Life Rank. He's already been attending meetings of a new troop because of the problems with the SM and CC from the old troop, and his rank will be presented by the new SM. It was a long and frustrating summer - 5 months after his first SM conference when the ALC ignored him and didn't do his BOR, and over 3 months from his BOR in the troop when we filed the appeal. I thought the council would backdate his rank to the date of the original BOR, but they didn't. In hind sight maybe he should have just jumped through the SM's hoops (he had added requirements) and he would have been done long before now, or he should have switched troops months ago and done the BOR there, and he would have been done. It was stressful for him and us. I guess at least this way the conflicts with the SM and the SM's lack of adherence to policy etc are on record. We still have to write the COR about why we're leaving the troop. Anyway, it's done, Good Kid finally has the rank he had earned in May, and he can formally transfer to his new troop that he likes and that likes him. Thanks to all for your earlier suggestions and support! GoodKidsMom

Thanks for the post; I agree. You said "Losing an appeal will not win them any points with the council leadership, nor with your chartered organization." I agree with that too, and I'm afraid I'll have to add that losing the appeal won't win my son or me any points with the SM or CC. I have not sent copies of the appeal or supporting material to the COR; should I? GKM

At least one other scout - one seemed like Eagle material - dropped out because of one hassle after another with the SM. There were requirements that were added, existing requirements that were interpreted as being more than the book said, etc. SM frequently makes crude/off-color remarks, cracks inappropriate jokes, loses his temper and yells at the boys, swears....that boy's parents finally had enough and removed him from the troop. He also was involved with sports and other activities, and Scouts was no fun and too much of a problem for them to continue. I think there were instances of boys being put off a week or so for their SM or BOR, but I think it's been because of not being in uniform or something like that. Scout Bully was given a tough time about his disruptive behavior during one BOR, but they still signed off, along with warnings to shape up (he didn't and is still there). GKM

No, he hasn't been advanced yet. I have not gone to the chartered org rep b/c it didn't seem like a useful path - he's a relatively new minister, who I don't think has much knowledge of the troop or BSA. I could be wrong there, but the one-two times he was brought in when there were problems with troop bully he didn't seem particularly informed or useful. Plus, the problems here were whether or not BSA policy was being followed - i.e. SM coming up with new requirements - Assertiveness, Pass SM Conf. This is why I contacted the District. We could not go to District Advancement Chair because he is also our Troop Committee Chair. The District Executive refered me to the District Chair. We tried to resolve it in-house with the CC, but when that didn't work the District Exec and District Chair brought in the Council Advancement Chair and the District Commissioner. GKM

Boleta, Yes, I do remember your posts about your son's situation. Your posts have inspired me to continue with this. I can't imagine them denying a palm, since the boy was already an Eagle and the palm requiremens are basically time+badges, aren't they? I believe we have a strong case and will prevail at the appeal, unless there's something going on that I'm not aware of. But FScouter, I don't see how the appeal to the Council Advancement Committee is going to influence the leadership issue. Boleta's son's situation shows that it won't necessarily. DE says SM problems have to be taken up with the Chartered Organization Rep. I not clear on the chain of command, but if BSA/Council/District isn't(aren't?) going to deal with SM adding requirements, yelling at a kid, etc, who will? RedFeather, yes, we're definitely looking at other troops, and even if my son wants to try to stay in this one, we'll have the option. Meanwhile, all this is really doing a job on my son's anxiety level, so I hope it'll be resolved soon. GKM

Hi Grumpy, You're right, why has been unanswered through all this. I have some possible answers, likely it's a combination of these. 1) He's trying to do the best for the boy, wants him to be more assertive, more mature, more enthusiastic, and so forth, and thinks the way to do that is to not recommend him for advancement. 2) He's ticked b/c we (mostly Mom being a Mom) have jumped in to the rescue when the boy has had trouble with the scout bully and not spoken up. Combine that with #1, he wants the boy to speak up for himself and Mom to back away. 3) He's ticked b/c when the boy couldn't go to the campout when he was ill, SM had to fill in teaching the skill the boy had been assigned to teach and thus keeps telling the boy he's not trustworthy. He wants to see a resumption of the active participation that was the case up till the last few months and thinks holding off on advancement is the way to do it. 4) He's ticked b/c we made waves, when Scout Bully continued to cause problems, we kept complaining, he kept warning SB, and finally he kicked SB out - but then SB's Mom fought to keep her son in and the Committee agreed, going against SM. So SM stuck his neck out b/c we rocked the boat, and then SM was shot down. 5) He doesn't like me b/c I challenge him. 6) He's an immature bully who thinks his way is the only way and doesn't respect those with other interests and personalities. As I said above, it's likely a combination of all of the above. GKM

ok, then a summary of the letter (with my comments in parents) Before BOR the committee members talked about SM not recommending my son. (Sounds like they started out biased.) Decided to base advancement on his responses (why not on him being signed off for the requirements?) My son didn't remember details about recent participation. (memory is not a requirement, participation has been signed off) My son gave an inappropriate answer (unfortunately he cracked a joke that was not well received) They didn't like his answers to scout spirit questions, but didn't give detail. (he's already been signed off for scout spirit) participate more (he has very high participation and has been signed off) criticized his leadership (has been active in positions most of the year and was signed off for that by SM) try new things (he is, but that's not related to what he's already done for rank), enjoy scouting (how can he in this environment?) That's the gist of it. We'll try one more time to discuss this with CC before the appeal is heard. My son's emotional state can't take another BOR or the delay. I'm in agreement with everyone who says to change troops - but he doesn't want to, so we'll have to see how that plays out. I don't want him to drop out entirely, but we can't leave him in an emotionally abusive situation. GKM

CC send my son a letter about why the BOR didn't recommend him for advancement. Sparing you the details, the few specifics were not compelling, and the rest was vague. CC was clearly influenced by SM. We've written a reply rebutting the points. It doesn't look like we can resolve this internally, and the formal appeal is going through channels. There's more involved than I can say here - please aim supportive vibes toward PA. GKM

Wow, what great results, and interesting that that SM had other complaints filed against him. Over the years several parents have grumbled about various issues related to this SM, but he is so enthusiastic about scouting and puts so much into being SM that it's seemed to balance the negatives. Nobody's perfect. This SM did leave another troop about 5 yrs ago under less-than-ideal circumstances - don't know the details, though. It's good to hear that other boys who run into similar issues get support and go on to succeed. I'm sure that'll happen with my son too. I just hope it's very soon, and it sure would be nice if it were backdated (just as a matter of principle). A few apologies would also be nice, but I don't expect them and would be surprised if we got them. thanks for posting GKM

Not much of an update. My husband met with the Council Advancement Chair, District Commissioner, District Executive, and District Chairman a week ago. There isn't room on the Advancement Committee's agenda for the appeal until September, so two of the men were going to talk to the SM and CC to try to deal with it informally. We haven't heard from them, so either they didn't meet yet or didn't get anywhere. Meanwhile, my supposedly immature non-active son is headed for Kandersteg International Scout Camp in Switzerland day after tomorrow.

Thanks for your post. I like your analysis that they're holding him back because of who he is. You're exactly right. Luckily, there are several other good troops in the area. GKM

Yes, I agree, it's time to move on. But we're still going to appeal the current BOR's decision, so he can be awarded the rank he earned in that troop. I hope that'll work out. When he switches troops, we'll be sure to write a letter to the Chartered Org documenting why. Thursday we meet with the DE, DC, and CAC (hope I got the alphabet soup right!) GKM

For those following my posts, my son finally had his BOR tonight. The committee didn't advance him, saying he isn't mature enough (their rationale - his father goes on most campouts and other events and he doesn't go alone (he HAS done JLT camp and OA ordeals alone) and isn't loyal or trustworthy (their rationale - he didn't go on a January campout he had planned to go on, and backed out of summer camp). Re maturity - it isn't a requirement, and since when is a father's involvement a problem? Without Dads AND Moms, there wouldn't be scouting. Re loyal or trustworthy - recall from my earlier post that he couldn't go on the January one b/c of a great deal of stress re illness and missed schoolwork, leading to a major problem with depression. SM doesn't respect our decision that he couldn't go or our statement that he was ill, and apparently CC doesn't either. Also, we wouldn't let him go to summer camp b/c of friction with SM...SM had refused to sign off on SM Conf b/c SM said he wasn't assertive enough (in addition to doing too much with Dad and not going to January camp), and when the boy called SM to say assertive wasn't required, SM blasted him and said they'd talk about it further at camp. Plus, SM had engineered a situation for my son to work with two other boys - both of whom SM called "chronic liars" - on a setup to see if one did tasks or lied about them. We didn't want our son in this kind of position. (More details in my long posts below.) Tomorrow we'll talk to the DE again, and probably other people in the district and council. I expect that we'll have to file an appeal. Any comments, suggestions, words of wisdom, etc? Thanks, GKM

Uh oh....ok, then we'll try to be sure he takes a shorter break! He's 14 1/2, so should have plenty of time. No cars yet, and no interest in sports, but he DID get a call from a girl the other day..... GKM

Thanks, Scoutldr, and we will - though I think it'll be a few years, not six months. He's got plenty of time and both wants and deserves a few years to just have fun without the pressure. GKM

My husband and DE have both talked with CC, who has scheduled the BOR for 2 weeks from now. I don't know which SM conf he's considering complete - the one with ASM that CC previously wouldn't accept, or the SM one that SM wouldn't sign off on, but either way, the BOR is scheduled. SM and troop are off at camp. My son has registered for camp later this summer as a provisional camper, with some boys from a troop he might switch to. He says he wants to stay in the present troop, but he's concerned about SM's attitude toward him so we'll see. I'd just as soon he switch, but we'll leave this up to him. Thanks for all the good advice, and I'll let you know of any developments, which I *hope* will be a new rank. GKM

Thanks for your post, Scouter659. It IS a crazy situation. The SM has been our SM for only about 2 years, as far as I know all the rest was as ASM, though with that much experience I'm surprised that he's not more open to different types of boys. My son is going as a provisional camper to a local camp with a small group from a local troop, also provisionals who can't go during their troop's regular week. Then the day after camp my supposedly non-active kid heads off to Europe for 10 days with another Scout group. (Then he'll probably sleep for the next two weeks) Update: I met today with the DE who finally had spoken with the CC who had been away (out of the country, it turns out). DE thinks we can settle my son's advancement problem within the troop once we talk to CC - we have a call in to him. DE recommends that CC accept the first SM conference, the one done with an ASM, because the boy DID have permission from SM to do it with ASM, and shouldn't be penalized (according to DE) for doing it with ASM even if that was against CC's directive. (My son thought it was ok since SM said it was ok.) So, if CC goes along with this, the BOR should be scheduled despite SM's refusal to sign off on SM Conf #2. Then we have to hope that the BOR is straightforward and focuses on whether he completed the requirements so forth, and that they don't throw a curve ball. They shouldn't, but.....??? DE also pointed out that it's premature to do anything formal such as an appeal since we hadn't yet discussed the problem with CC, due to CC being away. None of this will help with the friction with the SM and SM's attitude, so leaving still may be the best option. I'll send an update when there is one. GKM

You've raised some good points. We've tried talking several times, but adding another party is a good idea. Re the 20 years - he's only been the troop's SM for about 2 years; before that was an ASM and I don't know what else - he is without par for enthusiasm for hikes and so forth, and really seems to want to do good with the boys, but tact, empathy, etc have been problems all along - not just with us. He flies off the handle frequently, cracks off-color jokes, changes requirements, etc. We (misc. parents) have overlooked this b/c of his enthusiasm and good heart. None of this is directly related to our problem, though, and it is not my intention to expose him as a bad individual (which he is not) or bad SM (which is arguable, but that's not what I'm arguing). What we want to do is get this issue with my son straightened out, and then, if possible, see if things can be smoothed over so my son can continue in this troop if he still wants to. The letter I am working on details dates, emails, meetings, what was signed off, and other facts. I do make sure to point out that I believe SM means well and is trying to help my son improve in an area he feels is important. After reading your post, I will consider documenting the facts as intended for the letter, but use the list to help focus a discussion. Thanks, GKM

GSMom - thanks for the post. You make a good point, and I appreciate your insight! GKM

Hmmmm - interesting point. I'll pass that along. He likes most of the boys and also the ASMS, but has decided that the SM problems are just too big to stay after all. He's adamant about not having anything more to do with this SM. He realized today that his blue cards for camp are not signed, and he refuses to face SM, even just to ask for the signatures (and in our troop, only SM can sign blue cards). He's also too concerned about SM cornering him and hassling him. He realizes that not going to camp is running from his problem and will likely lead to the current troop giving him more of a hassle at his BOR. He has now decided to just switch troops asap, and if it'll delay rank awhile till SM and ALC get to know him, that's ok with him. He used up his assertiveness quotient when he called SM, and after being kicked in the teeth he doesn't choose to be kicked any more. It's less mature, but on the other hand it'll get him back to the fun parts of Scouting instead of having to deal with SM's treatment of him and the related stress. Kids shouldn't have to deal with this stuff.