Gonzo1

Good morning ASM915, First, Be delicate so as not to upset "his honor" Next, let me know that BSA rules prohibit scouts from participating in this type of thing, particularly while in uniform. But, you could ask the scouts if anyone wants to help him, they should be encouraged as this type of thing would be good citizenship, but they would have to be in street clothes, not uniforms. All the best, G

Lisa is a good ol' Bobwhite Her posts here are usu'lly right We may not agree Nor eye to eye see So right now I wish her good night!

Lisa, I agree that many atheists may benefit from the program. The problem is, they don't qualify for membership. See my post about the "Tall Club" that is, short people couldn't join. With BSA, non-believers can't join either. I'm sure non-believers would enjoy camping, tying knots, lighting fires, cooking, etc. You went on to say: "why can't we allow atheist children to join the program and benefit from that exposure through whatever religious elements currently exist in our program?" This is pretty simple, because the BSA doesn't allow it. I'll conceed that your suggestion may provide an opportunity to "witness" or be a positive testimony to atheists, but atheist can't join. Kindly read the attached link for the membership application. The application states membership requirements and gives a note to parents that adult leaders subscribe to the DRP and also give an excerpt of it. At the beginning of your last post, you said "I don't see how being an atheist precludes a boy from achieving those aims or meeting that purpose." The aims as we know are character, citizenship and fitness. I'll conceed that being an atheist doesn't preclude himself and may actually gain character, citizenship and fitness skills by being in the BSA. HOWEVER, he can't measure up to the first Method - Ideas. The BSA website says "Ideals. The ideals of Boy Scouting are spelled out in the Scout Oath, the Scout Law, the Scout motto, and the Scout slogan. The Boy Scout measures himself against these ideals and continually tries to improve. The goals are high, and as he reaches for them, he has some control over what and who he becomes." Accordingly, he can't do his Duty To God if he doesn't believe in some God, not necessarily some branded, organized religion. Here it is, the application for a boy's enrollment. http://www.scouting.org/forms/28-209.pdf The boy states that he wants to be a scout by putting his name on the application and the parents are aware as they sign the application. I'll even agree that atheists have sound bedrock values too. They just don't believe in God. Sorry, but I wanted to quote chapter and verse, so to speak. For a while, I felt like I was getting beat up pretty bad. Lisa, I haven't met you in person, but I feel like I would like you in person. You normally have excellent comments and sound advice for folks here. In this case, I just disagree with you. It's not my intent to offend, if so, please accept my apology. jg

If you still have some resistance, you could ask the parents a series of questions leading them to YES answers like: You do want a boy led troop, don't you? You do want to boys to learn to do for themselves, don't you? You do want boys to EARN their advacement, don't you?

ASM915, thanks, that made me laugh Thank you for the com-pli-ment When camping I sleep in a tent Half Irish I am And not very tan From Puerto Rico my grand dad was sent

Trevorum, Apology noted and accepted, thank you. It is not my intent to incite riotous debate, rather healthy debate. I appreciate your posts and information, thank you for helping me and others withyour knowledge of the Religious Relationships Committee. In a recent post, you said: "On the other hand, there is no list of acceptable faiths for individual membership. Any person is welcome to join, regardless of faith, as long as that person professes a belief in (a) god(s). But note that "BSA does not define what constitutes belief in God" This effectively means that all beliefs are acceptable. " I thought i had seen a post where there existed such a list, if I'm wrong, eh hem, I'm, wr, I uh, well, I uh, I guess I'm wrong. The further point you made above is exactly what I have been trying to say. These darn messages are sometimes difficult to express ideas. Anyone can join BSA If the believe in God. I couldn't care less whcih religion the person is. AAs long as a person believes in God, no problem. Let me say that by no means am I Bible totin', verse quotin' religious freak. I go to church on most Sundays. When I can't make it, I listen to some church on the radio or listen to Christian, old time gospel music preferably. evmori: I'm sorry I hijacked your thread. But hey, at least it didn't get shut down, at least not yet.

According to National's website, it says in part: "Virtually every religion is represented in the Boy Scouts of America, from Catholics and Protestants, to the Armenian Church of America and Zoroastrians. The Religious Relationships Committee, which includes over 30 religious groups represented in Scouting, determines whether a religion is an appropriate partner for Scouting, and reviews any duty to God material which is to be used in Scouting for consistency with Boy Scout policies." I must believe that wicca, witchcraft, paganism, maybe some other isms out there are "unacceptable". A phone call to national in the morning will help clarify this. I will post my findings tomorrow.

You don't. Simply have a better program, better boy led leadership and explain that parents are to enable the plan, not conduct the plan. That is, parents guide the PLC to some extent, drive to the outing, maybe teach a new skill once and supervise. Let parents know that they are welcome, but they don't recognize their son on the outings. Sure, greet, see how they're doing, but don't cook for your kid. Don't solve your kids problems. Don't put up or take down any scout's gear, etc.

ditto

OK gents, I said "basically the same thing" not exactly the same thing. The main point here is that when a person is prescribed a medication, they should take it as prescribed. Not so much a disc ussion of ADD/ADHD vs. Asperger's and the similarities and differences.

GWD, You can't please everyone. Last fall, I was my son's Web II DL, took the WEB I and II on a campout, had lots of parents, the other DL, about 25-26 people in all, charged $9 or $10, had a good menu. I noticed that a couple brought their son, but the kid (let's call him Johnny) didn't eat much and the parents didn't eat at all, though they paid for food. In this mix was also a a Hindu mom and her son. She mentioned that they are vegetarians, and asked if i cold plan accordingly. Knowing in advance, of course. In stead of beef stew, they had veggie stew and some pasta on the side. Johnny asked me if he could have some of the pasta,. I told him that it was for two other people who had a special dietary concern and that the stew, salad, bread would be for him and everyone else. After eating bread only, the parents let Johnny try some of the beef stew, he loved it! even had seconds. There was some pasta left, so I made sure he had some of that too. The next morning, I asked Johnny's parents why they were'nt eating. They told me on Sunday morning that they are vegetarians. I said we had salad, fruit, bread, they was plenty for everyone. Then they said they only eat organic food. I told the dad that if he didn't say anything in advance, how could anyone know? Eat up! He was afraid they would get fat eating our food. But he was amazed that Johnny like the beef stew.

LongHaul, The only point I ws trying make in the other thread is that BSA has a set of rules, let's follow them. If a requirement for advancemnt said "build a fire using no more than 2 matches, prepare and cook you meal" does the scout earn the sign offif he uses a box of matches., No, not even if he used 3 as 3>2. But if he used 2 and then used flint and steel, i'd sign it off, used 2 matches and improvised with flint and steel (it doesn't say he couldn't). If a requirement for joining BSA is be a boy 11 years old, but a 9 year old wanted to join, well, we both know you'd send him to cubs. Look at it this way. If a club existed for only tall people, whose requirements for membership included being 6 feet tall or taller, be unmarried and have black hair. Could short brown haired people join? They couldn't because they dn't meet the requirements. But what if shorty learned of their adventures to gaming casino's dance halls, parties and camping and beach trips, etc and really wanted to join, short shorty force the Tall Group to freely accept shorty? I don't thin so, shorty better start his own group for short people. I feel this is how it is with BSA. There are requirement for joining, boys actually earn a patch for it, Scout Badge. BSA really doesn't care which God or Gods you believe in, just believe in God. Remember, we take an oath to do our duty to God, not some vast unknown emptiness.

To All, Apparently, I've been misunderstood. Lisa (and Merlyn) If atheists join BSA, doesn't the applicant agree to live by the Scout Oatha dn Law? Not just give some lip service to earn badges and go camping? And oh yeah, become an Eagle Scout who happens to be an atheist. I disagree that allowing atheists would be a good position. One must agree to live by the Scout Oath and Law, can't do it if the applicant is an atheist. I don't think BSA is particularly "religious", but that it's members agree to believe in God, any God, your God, my God, whatever God the member or applicant chooses, not a particular religion (though BSA has a list of 'acceptable religions') GWD, Certainly not. I think believers and non-believers are as likely to steal hub caps. My point there is that being involved in scouts is a great wasy to keep kids off the streets, isn't it? Pack, my dear friend Pack, by no means am I trying to say that all communities should have the same standard as another. If I moved to Skokie Illinois, I wouldn't expect any prayer to end "in Jesus name, Amen". On the other hand, In Gainesville, I don't see many Jewish Temples and only 1 mosque, a store front mosque at that. BTW, I treat the Imam. I think it's a shame that the kids were kicked off the teams just because of their belief. Others, It is not my intent to incite a riot on the forum. LH, I'm not trying to start a smackdown either. I think some of us, maybe me too, are getting too wound tight about this. BSA admits people who believe in God, not atheists. You can believe in any God you wish. Yes, even Hindu or Budhists who believe in muti-theist religions.

Lisa, Merlyn I didn't mean to hijack the thread, it's about threads being closed, not DRP, God, merlyn, "we", etc. So, PM if you'd like to discuss it further.

LisaBob, Fair enough, I tried to edit, but can't, so I'll ammend my previous post to say "most of us don't". I'll concede that nothing is unanimous. Didn't realize I stepped on your toes too. I believe that Duty to God is a vital part of what we believe, not a duty to some nothingness. Merlyn I think BSA is OK the way it is. On other threads, I mention that I'd like to see changes, many of us would. Many, as Lisa points out, don't agree with the DRP. However, DRP is on the application, isn't it? don't we agree to support the DRP? I could be wrong. I think the only BSA units that met at schools have permission. I don't know who they get permission from, but they have it. A school in north Georgia had extra-ciricular clubs. A girl who has since graduated, wanted to start a club for gays. The school said NO. She sued, saying she should be able to start a club since other clubs existed. The school said fine, no more clubs. The case may still be in litigation. I suppose the atheist group could be allowed and not allow scouts. I can't imagine why? What harm can scouts be doing? Being involved in scouts sure beats stealing hub caps. Don't focus on the "we" in my last sentence of that post, focus on the scout skills, you do think its good to learn those skills, don't you? You just don't want God in the mix. It's too bad BSA had to be threatened at all. I remember our discussion of the school in Glen Ellyn, IL. It's too bad those 15 kids or so don't have a BSA program now. BTW, that's a special ed school, way to go! Merlyn, it's like this. BSA doesn't allow gays, atheists or girls. I'm not really sure what your axe is that you're grinding. Atheists not allowed. I didn't intend that "we" was to mean all of us here in this forum, but rather "we" as in members of BSA in general. I would wager that the majority, make that the overwhelming majority of BSA adults support having GOD in BSA. Would you like to join BSA? Believe in God and welcome aboard! May the Master of all scouts be with us until we meet again. Or, if you prefer, May the vast emptiness of nothiness that exists as all things around us just happened and crept out of the sea and can't be explained but just exists keep watch over us unitl we meet again, but can't because nothing is there to actually watch over us.

Somehow, the kid, his family and troop will know the truth. In the U.S. Navy, when a sailor is promoted to the rank of Chief Petty Officer, he (or she) must go through an initiation process lasting about a month. Some silly games, other fraternity like stuff. If a Navy Chief decides to not go through the initiation, word gets around. There is no respect for this individual, respect is earned, not given. Essentially, the non-participating Chief is black-balled. He'll get his own version of being black balled, it will take some time. No kid needs to be a special case. Join at 11, you get 6-7 years, depending on when you join.

Mmmm, Raccoon, a little greasy, but it tastes like chicken.

Merlyn, Here's the rub: BSA is a private organization, ......... But, I disagree that BSA gets priviledged use, gay and lesbian clubs are on school campuses, but the religious groups can't meet (or have a difficult time to meet), that doesn't seem fair. I'm not trying to hijack the thread, all I'm saying is that I don't agree with Ed where he said "His sole purpose, in my opinion, is to destroy Scouting as we know it and that bothers me." I just don't think it's your SOLE purpose. It's our SOUL (spelling intended) to keep BSA membership the way it is. I'm sure some atheists have managed to sneak in, but that' fraudulent on their part, they know the rules going in. Same for gays too. If a group of atheists want to use a school gym, scouts should be allowed to also. If gays want to meet in clubs at school, the Fellowship of Christian Athletes should be allowed also. The community , that is THE COMMUNITY should set the standard for who meets at the school, the library, the fire station, etc. But, BSA has done a good job of changing charter partners away from schools. I think you don't like that BSA has DRP and doesn't admit atheists, gays and girls. There is that First Tarrant group in Texas, isn't there? So, you don't want to destroy scouting, you think boys should learn knots, first aid, swimming, lashings, camping, backpacking, etc, you just want atheists involved. Only problem is, we don't.

I'm doing OK, I just had a f'dollah bill, not a fitty dollah bill

Some scouters like wit as Haiku It's something this scouter just won't do I like the rhymes in lim'rick They're clever, witty and slick Any other simply just won't do

A devoted scouter named Kudu Lengthy posts and comments he would do A student of Powell As he said with a scowl Tradition and old ways we must do! Kudu, I really appreciate your fondness for the way it was. I really wish we could go back too. As I've mentioned, I joined BSA in '72 or 73, we had an outdoor troop (with outdoor patrols). We did everything by patrol. I never owned a coleman lantern until my wife on one of our campouts "can we have more light?, So I put tw logs on the fire and waited. She pointed to another campsite and said, "that's nice, but light like theirs" pointing to a porpane lantern. I don't think in this day and age parents are going to send their kids out on a 15 mile hike without adult supervision. Personally, I prefer cooking over wood fires, I light fire with flint and steel (usually) and I prefer camping without the troop trailer. I see no reason why we (all) can't teach the older basic skills. Just because those old skills aren't requirements doesn't mean scouts can't learn them. Only thing is, we can't hold back on advancement because a scout today didn't learn some skill from the past. I disagree that a boy can earn Eagle without going into the woods, but i agree that some outdoor skills have been diluted. So, what can Kudu and Gonzo do to improve the situation? How can we all make change happen? Seriously, There are many things I'd change, some are easy to implement, some maybe not so easy. I've read here that National reads these posts, is that true? Hey National! We want to help make BSA better for the boys, please listen, ecourage participation. Many of us want to help. YIS Gonzo

Save the Burros! Save the Burros! Viva los Burros! I'd bring back skill awards and make advancement more rigorous. Tenderfoot is probably OK now, but Second class and up needs to be tougher.

gwd, My wife says that the more tired I get at night, the more the "Chicagoese" comes out, like "All's I got in my wallet is a fi'dollah bill."

I think I'd also add a small notebook, pencil, some current MB pamphlets, and a vintage handbook. Old skills come in handy and the MB handbooks, well, for working on MB's. Maybe a small book on astonomy, birds, local plants, small books, pamphlets really, they may come in handy.

DanKroh, I'm glad we agree and disagree. I suppose I completely overlooked (in this discussion) the adult under-diagnosis. Wasn't trying to imply that teachers are diagnosing, rather, teachers do everything they can to not diagnose. I think teachers don't want to "deal" with a kid who might be re-directed. I'm not sure what your area of discipline is, buthow bout this: I'll stick with my table, you stick with your couch. No offense intended, we can't (IMO) continue in this in an online forum, it's too complicated. Best done in person. I help lots of people, I refer out many. I'm sure you help many people too. All the best