GMitch

I've always disliked them, but recently took advantage of the 2 for 1 deal. I got rid of the cheesy plastic belt and surprisingly; after wearing them a little, have decided that they are not too bad. I just figured it would give me something to wear to summer camp and beat up, but I may wear them a little more often than I anticipated. Just as I thought though, they would never make a good pair of shorts for me. They look like those little OP shorts from the 70's when I sit down in them.

Gold Winger wrote: "Of course, since many chose to wear patches in the wrong place or decorate their uniform with parent pins, flag pins and an assortment of other junk, the Gunpo have far more serious offenses to worry about." I accompanied some newer Scouters to a NLE/LS training a few weeks back. As always, there were some interesting uniform violations. The one that made me chuckle though was the unit who had a few Cub Scouters all wearing their position patches on the left shirt pocket as if it were a rank!

Good post NJDFS_1. It doesn't bother me to pony up $170 to FOS, the countless tanks of diesel fuel to camp and Scout related meetings. the uniform and accessories, the camping gear etc. I'm not wealthy, but I'm not cheap either. At the end of the day, Scouting for the year might cost me $5 per day on the high side. I don't even have a boy old enough for the program yet either, but I believe in Scouting and what it can do for young men, and ultimately our nation. The late Gordon Hinckley who was a Silver Buffalo recipient said this: "I love the Scouting movement. If every boy in America knew and observed the Scout Oath, we would do away with most of the jails and prisons in this country. This program builds boys, builds their futures, leads them on the right path so they can make something of their lives. Every man or woman who helps a boy along the road of life not only does a great thing for him but does a great thing for society as a whole ." Most of us pay much more than $5 per day because of the economic drain on us due to prisons, jails, and welfare assistance for those who lack character, and don't observe the timeless values that are Scouting.(This message has been edited by GMitch)

bkale wrote: "Funny how things spin on the forum" Yes it is. I ran a very popular motorsports forum for a couple years as the sole moderator. However, when one tries to keep people real tight to the topic, the site tends to lose participants. I have come to realize that a forum with topics that drift occasionally is "normal", and a sign of a healthy board. :-)

There is a 61 year old man in our unit who wears the youth religious award, because he earned the Unitarian Universalists Religion In Life award as a youth. I have seen several others in this Council wearing youth knots, particularly younger (40 and under) LDS Scouters who earned Faith in God or On My Honor as youth.

Just out of curiosity, how much do your units raise each year during FOS? I have done it in two different units the past two years, and both of them ended up with a little more than $2600. I'm just trying to find out if that is low, high, or average for a unit. I think this year we could have done better, but I assigned two fellows to help. One ended up in the hospital with serious diabetes complications, and the other didn't follow instructions very well. I told the IH that next year I prefer to do it alone, as the help wasn't very helpful.

What the heck, I'll help keep this thread alive. I am a partner in a nationwide hair salon franchise with multiple units. It is a crummy business overall, but it has it's upside. I probably work 12-15 hours per week in the units. I do take a lot of phone calls throughout each day. This leaves time for family, Church service, and Scouting. Not getting rich but getting by with lots of spare time. Prior to salon life, for 6 years I managed a large LPG rail/trucking terminal for a Fortune 500 energy company that is no longer, and one that is. I landscaped for more than a dozen years before that.

Exactly like Gold Winger said, the actually COR runs the show..... if he's involved. Far too often though, the COR is a "paper position" given to someone who doesn't function simply for recharter purposes, and the Committee is left without accountability and direction. As a COR I have replaced 12 Troop and Pack adult leadership positions in the past several months to try to breath some life into our unit. I've been involved with Scouting for a good number of years, and until I actually became one I never fully realized the significant role a COR can have on a unit, for good or for bad. I'd suggest you talk to your COR about the power seeking, untrained leaders in your, unit and see if he can bring some harmony to your committee.

While it may not be "National approved", I'd rather have folks who refuse to be trained do this online NLE than nothing. Also, as I stated above our District has not questioned the training. I think once the folks who won't go to training but take the online course, will feel less threatened, more informed, and will eventually be more open to learning more in a live training session.

If each of these guys has 60 minutes, they can take NLE online. Now, for me this is the "less preferred" method, as I think there is a lot to be gained from networking with other Scouters at training events. However, when I have a behind the scenes volunteer like a Committee Member who cannot or is hesitant to attend a District training, I have them do NLE online. Most Councils do not offer it online, but the Greater Cleveland Council does, and will e-mail a completion certificate afterwards. I have turned a few of these in to our District office, and they have not even balked at them. Really, when you have only 14% of your leaders in the District Basic Trained, how could they make a stink about someone's effort to become better trained? So, here is where you want to be: Begin by going to the Council homepage here: http://www.gccbsa.org/Index.asp Slide the mouse over Training on the upper right of the menu, then over e learning, and then click New Leader Essentials. There are detailed instructions from this part forward. Once completed, you will enter information so that a certificate can be e-mailed to you.

I was/am in much the same boat as this fellow. In 1995-2000, I was very active in Scoutng. At that time I served in a great unit, our COR was a D.A.M. and Silver Beaver recipient, Scoutmaster was a great guy and Eagle Scout, and the Committee was as qualified as any I had ever seen, then or since. However, nobody really encouraged adult recognition. Ultimately, it should have been MY responsibility to track progress. Because I did not, I have done things over that I have done in the past. None of the performance aspects for my Scouter's Training Award date back further than the most recent 2 years. And you know what? If one is engaged in the program it is not that difficult to hit 6 roundtables, 5 campouts, 2 FOS campaigns, 3 Courts of Honor etc. I have used old tenure for the award though, as I am also working on others that cannot use duplicated tenure. I think ideallly, the Committee Chairman or the Training Chair should help adult volunteers understand what awards are available to them, and especially with new Scouters. Why? Not so they can parade around puffed up with pride like "Joe Square Knot", but it is a system of checks and balances in my judgement. If an adult is working on his own awards, the natural result of that is a quality program to the unit. Most of the awards for adults require that Scouts or other people have been served. We worry about getting leaders to stay involved in Scouting. Scouters question whether they have really made an impact. Many of these concerns are put to rest when a Scouter is recognized for his or her efforts! How many guys with 3, 4 or more awards represented by square knots just walk away from the program? Far fewer than those who have had no recognition whatsoever. How many guys have no recognition that exceed the requirements of many of these awards? Far too many! In my estimation if a unit wants to keep Scouters engaged in the program, they need to give recognition when it is due, and help Scouters understand what is needed to earn the awards. CC and COR should be key people in this effort. That is my little rant on adult awards. Thanks for listening!:-)

Warren, I'm just curious, how did you end up writing your diversity goal? I started WB in 1998, but could not finish due to a work fiasco. I submitted by application and payment already for a Sepember course this year in another Council. I'm already thinking about the ticket items, and diversity seems to be the most challenging. I liked the addition of "family status" to your list as adiversity item. I have a few ideas kicking around that theme now.

Oak Tree, Thanks for the suggestion, and I've actually had some people offer to do that through Private Message. I would like to give the Council the opportunity to do the right thing first though, not only for the benefit of the Scouters in my unit, but for all in the Council. A scout is "Trustworthy". I would prefer them to say "hey you're exactly right, we're going to let these guys wear the knot representing the award". You bring up another good point in who actually has the paperwork from 1960 laying around handy to show to the Council office? Again, a scout is "Trustworthy". I guess there are some sick, demented, psychos out there who would get their jollys wearing square knots for awards they did not earn, but I think the local Scout Shop should lighten up a little and allow folks to purchase items like this where the paperwork may not be obtained. Heck, even in their own office they cannot produce my records going back 13 years because they had a flood that dmaged equipment and records. How can they expect people to have records that are 40 or 50+ years old?

As Bob White said it takes more than just the training to earn the award. One must do 5 of the performance items to be qualified, as well as have 2 years of tenure as a registered adult leader. Using older tenure dates is well justified in earning this award, as tenure to earn most other awards need to be different dates than the tenure to earn this one. Also, the requirements you listed make no mention of Youth Protection training (not that it is very difficult), and that is only good for 2 years. He would have to do that to be qualified, even if the old training dates were accepted. Here is a good link on the Scouter's Training Award. This includes requirements, as well as the little cut out form Bob mentioned. Hope this helps. http://www.usscouts.org/awards/scoutertraining1.asp

Last fall I replaced my old shirt from 1995. The new one is Made in USA. I shelled out the $100+ for a new Jac-Shirt a week ago. As if the price wasn't bad enough, the "Made in China", added insult to injury. American patriotism has gone the way of new world economics, even in BSA.

Thanks for the responses guys. Gold Winger kind of hit it on the head that while the shop staff may not always know everything, they think they do, and sometimes assume the role of the BSA Uniform Police. Calico, on ScoutStuff.org, all of the Square Knots are restricted and have the following note: " Availability: This is a restricted item. Available only in your local council trading post or Scout Shop with required paperwork." I have seen several Unit websites mention that this knot or that knot is "not restricted", but certain Councils must be more liberal than others on their policy regarding square knot emblems. Our Council is taking the policy that ALL knots are restricted, and require documentation. The Senior Scout Shop Manager asked me to show her some evidence of what I was saying from in fact National. I could not do that offhand, but I did share with her a Council website which had essentially the same policy aslisted above. I asked her to please get clarification from the SE or National. It is just not right that this policy vary from Council to Council on displaying a National recognition. I am giving her time to respond with an answer before I contact the SE for further clarification. I am hopeful that she will straighten it out and contact me without having to make a big stink about it.

The following text is excerpted from usscouts.org regarding the Arrow of Light Square Knot for adults. "Note that the current "Arrow of Light" patch worn by youth members (shown below), was called the "Webelos award" from 1941 to 1967. When the current Webelos rank was created in 1967 (replacing the Lion rank, the former Webelos rank was renamed the "Arrow of Light". Scouters who earned the patch under the old system are also eligible to wear the knot shown above. It's basically the same award with a different name." I concur with this, and there are even some BSA Councils who have very similar statements regarding the wearing of the AOL Square Knot by adults who earned their Webelos Award. My question is does anyone know of a BSA National policy confirming this, or is it left for SE's to decide on the Council level? I have 2 fellows in our unit who are a little older and earned the Webelos, but the local Scout Shop staff is not in agreement with them wearing the AOL knot. Thanks for any help offered.(This message has been edited by GMitch)

The jac-shirt may have been to the collector's corner page at National Supply, but it also is for sale under Appareal-Jackets still. I think it is still very much in vogue as a preferred official jacket option. There is no uniform jacket, but I think the jac-shirt is as close to it as you can get.

******FIREWOOD & NUTS******* In this area a wind storm took out over 15% of the orchard trees this year, in particular almond trees. We have one farm (and probably many others, but one is all we need) who will let is cut and haul off wood that they have hauled out of the orchards (about 8000 acres). Adults cut and split, and scouts load and unload. Boys are responsible for trying to contact buyers, although we get a lot of buyers that just kind of happen through the CO (church). It is a good fit,we get pretty good money from it, the boys work hard, and we are selling a product that is much needed by many families, much more so than popcorn and candy I might add. We sell the wood at about $150 per cord, as some of our product is not as uniform as the guys that are in the firewood business. Most almond goes for $225-$285 per cord, so ours is a great value and most people realize that it all burns the same even if the lengths and splitting vary a little bit. The same farm after shaking and sweeping walnuts, will have a good number of nuts that will fall, but it is not economical to run man hours and equipment on it again. Scouts and adults can come in and pick up these nuts by hand, and then sell them to the processor. This has been good for us in the past too, although we skipped it this year as the nuts all came off pretty much at the first shaking. If you are in a rural area, think rural! Gathering and delivering fertilizer for example might make a good project, or tilling gardens for people. Rural areas present some unique fundraising opportunities that I think exceed that of city life, but I think one has to get out of the traditional scout fundraising mindset to take advantage of them.(This message has been edited by GMitch)

Trevorum wrote: "Think of the person who was denied employment because they were a different race or religion, or perhaps because they were in a wheelchair. Yes, these particular legal injustices have been remedied in recent years." I don't necessarily think these injustices have been remedied, but rather a social onslaught towards white christian males has begun in an attempt to make everyone else feel better.(This message has been edited by GMitch)

As a Chartered Organization Representative for a LDS unit, I hope to hit 2 birds with one stone in reply to the following posts. As SSScout posted: "But on the other hand, the "A" folks might not want their boys exposed to an "unwashed" type, even if the boys are friends in school." and NeilLup posted: "Actually, John, I believe that LDS sponsored units are often not restrictive in their membership. They are delighted to have non LDS Scouts and families participate in their units. Outreach and all that. There might be some restriction in the leadership that non-LDS youth can hold as adult and youth leaders in LDS units are not necessarily selected the same as in other units but even there, I'm not sure." I think SSScout's comment is somewhat true, but not entirely at least in our particular LDS unit. We do have one boy who is not a member of our church in our Troop recruited by a member friend. However, this does not mean that we are open to the idea of ANY boy who is not of our faith joining the Troop. He must be tolerant of and adherent to the standards placed upon our boys not only by BSA, but those that Jesus Christ has placed upon us through the leaders of the church. It is a two way street, kind of a "we can accept you if you can accept our standards" relationship. If both sides agree, then it is a good match. If a boy wants to cuss like a sailor, and bring cigarettes and porno mags on an outing, it probably isn't going to work out so well for us. It is not adherence to the doctrines or ordinances that are important for a Scout participating in an LDS unit, but he must comply the standards set forth by ecclesiastical leaders. We have even had some non LDS Scouters who were spouses of members serve as leaders in our unit, but the same thing applies, he must accept our standards of living and be tolerant of the fact that Scout activities are not just Scout activities for us. Scouting in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints for 96 years now, has been utilized first and foremost to accomplish religious objectives in the lives of our boys and their leaders. We think it is an excellent fit when the program is well run. As far as Neil's comment, USUALLY your SPL, PL and other leaders in LDS units are Priesthood Quorum leaders for their particular age group, but not always. To be fair though, I would say that a non LDS boy in an LDS unit probably has a lesser chance of serving in active leadership, because these assignments are usually made by the Organizational Head who is the Bishop in most places. However, plenty of other boys who ARE LDS will also be denied the same leadership opportunity, so I guess you might say we are in fact "equal opportunity discriminators"! ;-) Hope that sheds a little perspective.

Good topic, and some good posts already. I think people have varying degress of understanding of what it takes for a program to be successful, varying skill sets, and various levels of commitment to their position. I also think that each have a different set of priorities in their lives, and have different individual reasons for being involved in BSA. Each situation is uniquely different. As a COR, I sat down with 4 of the 5 Pack Committee members the other day because I am having a tough time getting the new Chairman to set a date for an actual Committee Meeting. As I started to discuss an upcoming NLE/LS Training,and some other key dates, one of them mentioned that I may not have the right people for the job. I think we do, I just think they haven't quite caught fire yet with scouting spirit. This is the same bunch that cannot seem to ever make it to a Roundtable meeting either. However, I'm not going to judge them and say they aren't doing their best. One is a mother of 5 kids all under age 9, another owns a high demand business, another has challenges with the recent loss of an adult child, and a special needs grandaughter. These folks just have a lot going on in their lives, and as a leader I am sensitive to that. Do I wish the CS program would move along better in our unit? Yes! Have we made progress under the leadership of these people? A resounding yes! When they started the boys were not wearing uniforms, advancement was not being tracked, the former Cubmaster was seldom two-deep etc. We are resolving issues one at a time, and the program is progressing, albeit not as fast as I personally would like. I have the same challenges with my Troop, but also the same small nuggests of success that I must be thankful for. As long as we are going the right direction, I can be content, even if the people are not as gung-ho as we might like them to be, and things are not moving as fast as we would hope. I think one of the greatest attributes a Scouter can have is patience, and that is tough to develop, but absolutely essential. There does however at the same time need to be encouragement with a sense of urgency, as time really moves quickly and these boys will be adults before we know it.

Goldwinger, I am 6'3" and they looked like they would be short when I held a pair up to me. I suppose I should try a pair out, worst case is I don't have to take the legs off and use them as shorts if they are too skimpy.

They look like they would make good 1970's NBA shorts if you unzipped the legs off. :-/

The only position within a unit that will allow one to hold more than one registered postion is Chartered Organization Representative. Therefore, tenure can only count towards the position one is registered for.