GKlose

DeafScouter -- I think everyone needs to be on the same page. I know I still have some "training" to do, but most of our adults get it. The new adults coming in? Reports are some do, and some don't. So we'll start in on training them too. It's also common advice on this forum. Stosh, as I recall, taught his youth leaders to say "with all do respect, I will take care of that" in addressing an adult that was meddling a little too much. Guy

Sorry, Deaf Scouter -- I've been away for a few days, and I'm just now reading this thread again. But I can't really answer your question -- meeting planning is one area we're still working on. Many meetings have been in the "wing it" category, and a few too many meetings (for my taste) have been group merit badge sessions. One recent example: PLC decides to feature cooking on a weekend outing (and I think they expected me, a Cooking MB counselor) to just sign off everything for everyone on the outing. I was asked to do some "classroom work" at the next troop meeting. And I did. But I didn't sign anyone off. We talked about food-borne illnesses, safe handling, likely kitchen accidents, a little about nutrition, and what makes a good menu (for different circumstances). I'm done with the group work -- if an individual Scout wants to come to me to finish the MB, we'll go through all the details. But meanwhile, we had a bunch of Scouts that hopefully have learned more about cooking, and can think ahead to their T, 2C and 1C rank advancement too. Anyway, we haven't run into the materials and supplies issues yet, w.r.t. meeting planning. Guy

When my older son moved from Webelos to an adult-led troop-method troop, when I asked the SM about patrol method, he'd only answer "we're working on that." It took awhile to figure out what was wrong and how to approach fixing the problem. Now it is more than four years later, and we are much closer to a youth-led patrol method troop than ever before. It wasn't easy (in fact, all advice I read online was along the lines of "just find another troop") and we're not all the way there yet. Several things had to happen along the way -- for one thing, another like-minded adult joined the troop, and we worked together. One of our biggest issues was that the SM ("World's Oldest SPL") would undermine youth leadership, unknowingly mostly. We had to wait until he was ready to step down. We targeted a particular Scout for SPL...he wanted the job badly, so we started training him when he was a PL. We didn't exactly manipulate the vote, but we did scare away some "marginal" candidates by saying that we were going to expect accountability. We offered weekend youth leader training (the old SM didn't consider it important to train youth leaders). The like-minded adult who joined after me -- at first he was our advancement chair. He started insisting on accountability in BoRs. Pissed off at least one dad in the troop by not allowing a "no show" Scout to advance on first request. Since then, that Scout has actually participated, and has actually fulfilled a PoR. He'll be an Eagle soon, perhaps before the year is out. This same advancement chair is now our SM. Lots of other changes too: in the past, outings were chosen by adults, and signups were handled by them too. The last straw, for me, was when one outing was cancelled at kind of the last minute. We'd planned to camp on a Boston Harbor Island. But when I checked online, I saw that it wasn't open for camping until a few weekends later. The adult who was organizing the outing sent out email about changing to a Martha's Vineyard bike trip, and said that unless at least 10 Scout signed up immediately, the monthly outing would be cancelled. All he heard was crickets chirping. Since that incident, outings happen no matter what. The new SM and his son will camp by themselves if that's all who can go. Our only exception, in the last two years, has been plans for snowshoeing this last February. Even up until the last day, we were hoping for snow, but it didn't happen. So it got changed to just a local day hike. Here's the biggest lesson we learned along the way: just do it. Don't talk about ways to transition to youth leadership, just do it. Don't talk about the need for youth leadership training, just do it (I put together a weekend outing, for all prospective youth leaders, that got down to the details of how to plan a meeting, how to plan an outing, etc. We started that weekend on Friday night, with a mock patrol meeting, where they planned a menu for a weekend outing -- that was the menu they used that weekend). Talk to your PLs about accountability, and then just do it. SM Conferences have to focus on them fulfilling their PoRs, and BoRs have to hold them accountable. Set a schedule for weekend outings, and then stick to it. Go no matter what. Identify the adults that unknowingly undermine youth leadership, and then talk to them. We were lucky that we found a local summer that supports the patrol method concept (!!! --> it is not just patrol cooking, it is patrol program too). Our council, in addition to NYLT (which we haven't taken advantage of) still offers the old Brownsea 22 curriculum, which is a great reinforcer of the patrol method. We've sent two Scouts so far, and may send 3 this year. The places where we're still falling short -- there is still a tendency to do group cooking when there are just a few Scouts attending an outing. The problem is that our outings have been so popular (used to be an average of 8 to 10 on an outing, now more than doubled) that the group cooking thing isn't working any more. We're in an "awkward phase" :-). I could go on and on, but I won't. I'm sure one of you could come in and observe and then point out yet another place where we're falling short, but we really are working on that now, rather than just paying lip-service. Guy

By the way, a couple of years ago, in one of the "Scout Stuff" catalogs that was mailed out, there was a page that described a "small format" troop flag. I think it is around 16"x24". Had a small problem ordering it through the local Scout Shop -- they didn't know it existed, but were convinced after seeing the catalog. Anyway, we ordered one, and it goes on every outing with us now. We bought a small American Flag too that matches the size. The strangest part about that: try and find a similar American Flag that isn't made in China. Guy

qwazse, now you're talkin'! That's the kind of attitude I like to see. :-) We need a BSA Paper Reduction Act of 2012. We can already recharter online, train (mostly) online, and file advancement online. I can reserve and pay for summer camp slots online (our past troop treasurer would have preferred that everyone in the troop log in individually to register for summer camp with our troop -- hey, that's possible, I suppose -- give someone an "event ID" then they could log on, enter the ID, and then pay online -- then they show up on the troop roster for a summer camp slot); we can also register for other events, online, including signing up for specific classes at the annual University of Scouting. We can shop at ScoutStuff.org. We can read BSA Handbooks and Fieldbooks online. We can download a current medical form, and actually type into the PDF (actually, this is one of the more promising developments I've seen in the last few years -- I typed the form last year, for my sons and me, and this year, I just plugged in minor updates, printed it out and sent them to our doctors). Why drag the feet with a 40+ year old (at the very least) registration model? (shoutout to Kudu) Maybe we'll even invent a new fake BP/Roland Philipps quote: "Online registration: it's not the only way to join a Boy Scout troop, is A WAY." :-) Guy

On a Scouts email list last week, there was a series of ongoing complaints about JTE paperwork, and other sorts of things that tend to get pushed down to the unit level. So I tossed in my own complaint, about the biggest time-waster I have: handling applications. In general, responses ran about 50-50; half agreed with me that there has to be a better way, the other half argued why things have to be done the way they are. As a straw proposal, I had tossed out the idea that registration could be done online, with an online payment to national. This is very similar to other organizations I've joined. Who knows, maybe it is the chartered organization model that needs to be updated? But then it struck me -- when I was 11, transferring from a Cub Scout pack to a Scout troop, I distinctly remember my Scoutmaster coming over to our house after school one day (he was a jr high math teacher), and sitting down with my mom and I to fill out a BSA youth application. That was over 40 years ago. The only thing different is the actual form -- it's a lot bigger now, and more information is collected. But the idea is identical, and the form goes in to a council office where it is handled manually, probably much the same way it was 40 years ago (except that now it is scanned into a system). So very few basic improvements in the process in over 40 years? Those that disagreed with me all had valid points, but I think they were all prisoners outmoded thinking. For example, some complained that (for adult apps), you need a "wet signature" for background check. But I'm envisioning a process where, after you register online, you could print out a registration certificate that you have to sign and then turn into your CO, for the COR signature, and then up to the council for the SE signature. Why can't that include permissions and CORI and whatever else is needed? It would even have the "wet signature" that is important. One guy complained that it would be unfair to have someone register on the national site (if it existed) and then have national collect "unit dues" that many of us have. I asked why national had to be involved in collecting unit dues, and he responded because it is unfair to have families have to pay twice (once to national, and once to unit). But -- I pointed out -- that is exactly what the basketball team one of my sons plays on does -- he registers with the team, for a fee, but then still has to get an AAU card (the national part) before he can participate in tournaments. One guy complained that the council offices are already overburdened, so why should they be looking up YPT completion (rather than having us send in hardcopies of online YPT completion)? He completely missed, however, the idea in my original note that said that if council registrars had less of a load, from having to handle ALL applications, then more time would be available for other administrative tasks. In fact, couldn't YPT lookup be part of whatever CORI/background check that goes on now? Side note -- yes, I know it's different with brand new adult applications (not having the ID number, getting into the system and all that). There is a world of difference between asking a newly-registering adult to print out a YPT certificate, and asking adults who have been registered for a long time, for their certificate before you can recharter. A couple of guys complained that I was overestimating how many people have access to the internet. But I pointed out that I was about ready to sit down, do my taxes and then file them electronically. I know for a fact the IRS has been encouraging electronic filing, where possible. But the IRS didn't get rid of paper forms, did they? You can still mail those in or drop them off at a service center. One of these same guys basically told me that I don't understand, that Scoutnet just isn't as reliable or as usable as what I expect. I'm thinking "Yes! Isn't that what the real problem is?" Why is the BSA clinging so desperately to old outmoded practices and tools? Maybe it is an issue of money or time. It certainly isn't a problem that can't be solved. Like I said at the beginning -- handling applications is the biggest single time-waster I have. I would be a much happier volunteer if I knew someone was actually looking at this kind of stuff. Guy

I was involved with a very similar situation -- except that it really wasn't the Scout that had an issue, it was the dad. Here's a short version of the story: Adult-led troop method troop, with do-nothing PoRs -- new adult leaders some along (I'm one of them) and decide that it has to change over time. A new advancement chair starts to give warning at BoRs that Scouts have had their freebie, but they will be expected to have actually served the next time around. So all is fine until the first Scout is coming up for a board under the "new rules". The advancement chair brings it up at a committee meeting, that things are about to come to a head, as a warning. The dad of this first Scout, at the committee meeting, is livid. He didn't understand why all these free passes have been issued in the past and now his son would be held back. The Scout, as a Patrol Leader, hadn't really been on any outings, hadn't been to meetings, and hadn't held patrol meetings. My attitude: you can't actually raise the standards in a troop without actually raising standards. It got ugly at that meeting. The dad was shouting. I tried to calm him down, but that might have only agitated him more. The advancement chair did continue the discussion with the dad, and things were smoothed over. Turns out there was a basic misunderstanding that was underneath everything. The dad didn't understand that the rank was awarded as of the board date. He thought it was all about the Court of Honor date. So he thought that the board had to be done prior to the upcoming Court of Honor, and he didn't want his son to be delayed several months until the next Court. The advancement chair explained the real rules, and then made a simple change with the troop. We now award rank badges at the conclusion of boards of review, recognition at the ends of meetings, and then do recognition at Courts of Honor. The best part is that the Scout has since been quite active. In the last year, he's attended more outings and meetings than he has in the previous two years, and he was selected for ASPL, and has served well in that role, even filling in for the SPL several times. Guy

"a please of no contest"? Sorry, I really do know better than that. Sheepish Guy

So I'll go out on a limb here, because life without highly-opinionated people is boring :-) Beav, I think you are so off-base that it isn't funny. You know as well as I do that ignorance (of the rules) is no excuse. Willful ignorance (or disregard) is even worse. I also think you're making an assumption here that wasn't supported by VentureMom: "but apparently an effort was made to ensure no one-on-one was adhered to." Where did that come from? We presumably have a real BSA leader here, right? Required YPT? If so, there is absolutely no excusing the willful disregard of youth protection rules. You can pooh-pooh that all you want, and even chalk it up based on his age, or that it wasn't so bad, or whatever. But it WAS breaking the guidelines -- it WAS a violation of the youth protection guidelines of the crew. And there were two problems that I don't think can be chalked up as one -- there is supposed to be 2-deep leadership (unless this wasn't considered an "outing") and there is supposed to be co-ed leadership for a co-ed crew. BOTH were ignored. I could tell you firsthand stories about a Webelos DL and an ASM -- a lovable old guy, and he was even married, with kids around my age, but something was kind of off -- there were "funny" (strange) incidents, with multiple Scouts. Not covert at all. Guess what? The story eventually ended with molestation of multiple members of a church youth group, and an arrest and trial. I can't recall the disposition -- my faulty memory says a please of no contest and a suspended sentence. I'm sorry, but I take the "protection" part of this seriously. Hence, the strong opinions. Guy

Stosh -- I've spent a bunch of years at a dining hall camp, and the last two years at a camp with no dining hall. Here's exactly what I found: there is no loss of program time in the patrol-oriented camp. Nor is there any loss of free time (waterfront, etc). There is a slight loss of what I call "idle time". Idle time, just as you pointed out, is mostly that time before and after meals -- the goofing around and hanging out time. I call it a slight loss of idle time because of this: the cooks are busy for about a half hour to and hour before the meal is served, but have idle time after. The cleanup guys have idle time before the meal, and then are busy about a half hour afterward. Sometimes less, if they are a well-functioning patrol. The other guys -- maybe that's when a small crew might take 20 minutes out to clean a latrine, or walk down to the shower house, or police the campsite, or fill up water buckets, etc. But that kind of stuff is what they'd do in the dining hall camp too. Now this same camp does not have merit badge classes, so there is no sitting around the camp working on bookwork for merit badges. There is a trading post, but it is open during very limited hours (the free time block in the afternoon, only). Someone might bring up the announcements and camaraderie aspect of the dining hall -- sure, we miss that, somewhat. That aspect is carried over to our morning and evening assemblies. We still have camp songs, but not after lunch (which is in program areas). It's a pretty good system. It is not unlike the two summers that my old troop in Ohio did, holding our own camp about six hours north in Michigan. Guy

I never would have done the competition thing on my own...however, of all places, on a Cub Scout hike, I met a dad that I kind of meshed with. He talked a little bit about barbecue, and so I asked him a few questions. Turns out he was well on his way to becoming a pitmaster. So we kept in touch, and the next year, he said that he was putting together a team to compete, and did I want to check it out? I said sure, and the rest is history...

We don't really go out of our way to seek publicity for our guys' Eagle projects, but we had a nice moment this last year. A member of our CO is also the town's conservation committee chair. So quite a few times he has given us suggestions for projects that our guys have picked up. It has been a nice arrangement, especially because some of them are funded by the town. Our town also started including a quarterly report in with our property tax bills -- we might get department updates from a number of different departments any given quarter. This last year, one of those updates from the town conservation committee called out specifically some of the trails renovations, footbridges, etc. that were produced by Eagle Scouts. It was a very nice shout-out. But the payback was actually here -- a few weeks back, we were hosting some Webelos at a troop meeting, and I had pulled aside parents to talk to them about the troop. They were all wondering about our calendar -- we only meet two or three times per month (I know, we're working on that) -- but I pointed out that we had 14 one or two-night outings, two summer camp weeks, one 5-day canoe trek, two parades, and six service projects, not including the seven Eagle projects that our Eagle candidates did. Then I held up a copy of the quarterly report and said "you might have read about four of them in here...". A mom said, "that was YOU guys?". :-) Guy

The "eye-balling" statement was mine. Sorry, Eamonn, but you're reading a whole lot more into the situation that what was there. No problem with interpretation, and your sentiment is appreciated, but there was no "rubbing their noses in it". Actually, it hasn't really happened yet anyway -- it was a statement about how I recruited a BBQ team member, a good friend, into the troop. His first inclination is to want to feed everyone. The expense? Not even really an issue -- it would be if we picked up a Certified-Angus brisket, but a pork shoulder can be anywhere from $1 to $3/lb, which is sometimes on-par with what ground beef is. Chicken thighs? Not so bad. Guy

The only issue about the "dilemma" had to do with the context I mentioned. The "World's Oldest Senior Patrol Leader" was shopping for everyone, and was running around barking orders when it was time to cook. It was definite "adult-led troop method" type stuff. So, try breaking that pattern sometime. It isn't as easy as it sounds, when you've got Scouts and adults trained that way. Troop was definitely a "father-son camping club" deal. They aren't weaned overnight! Guy

My KCBS badge number, from last year's training, is in the 60k range. :-)

Sorry to think it was a hoax, but there were so many Youth Protection violations in the original note that it just didn't make sense. The violations, of course, were lack of two-deep, lack of co-ed leadership and non-separate sleeping quarters. Anyone who has been through BSA Youth Protection would know this. On top of that -- I'm not sure about the Venturing program, but in the Boy Scout program there is a youth protection pamphlet that a young Scout is supposed to discuss with his parents. This lets the parent know *exactly* what the BSA youth protection policies are, and hopefully it will help the Scout understand them too. With so many youth protection violations (and a BSA leader is *required* to be trained, and *required* to follow the policies, no grey area at all) I don't really see this as a matter to discuss with the Venturing leader. This is a matter to take straight to the SE. Guy

My older son, who will be 16 by next summer, has already been accepted on youth staff. He is hoping for a posting to the Jamboree band. His second choice is to work "tech crew" for the Arena shows, although when job choice lists "Arena Shows" he doesn't know if that includes tech crew (which could, reasonably, be locked up by adult staff). He attended the last Jamboree and enjoyed it -- my younger son might go this time around, especially if his brother goes. We still have time to decide. Guy

Couple of thoughts -- the context is that our former SM was a "World's Oldest SPL" and was pretty much in charge of purchasing food, and making sure that group/troop cooking was taken care of. It has taken a long time to break those patterns... Sometime in the last couple of years, in place of an ordinary "cracker barrel" on Friday nights, we have developed a new "troop tradition" -- we now call it "meat on a stick". Very popular with Scouts old and young, and adults. It takes some patience to roast an italian sausage over a fire. :-) Those with less patience might be roasting hot dogs. On a 5-day canoe trip this last August, our "meat on a stick" lasted into the 4th day. Meanwhile, in other news -- by PLC decision, last month's outing had a theme of cooking merit badge. For the first time, or at least as long as I can remember, our guys really stretched themselves. Some used dutch ovens for the first time (and quickly learned it isn't a set and walk away type of deal), scratch-made macaroni and cheese, steak tips, chicken cesar salads and taco salads. One Scout did an old Norwegian family recipe for pancakes. One dad even did his own thing -- he and I have formed a competitive barbecue team -- and he brought along a smoker and a new chicken method/recipe to try out. He made enough so that everyone could try a chicken thigh. By the way, this dad and I formed the team long before his son crossed-over into the troop -- along the way, he was pretty noncommittal, but I really wanted to recruit him and his son into the troop, sensing how envious all of you would be when I start talking about the chicken, ribs, pulled pork and brisket that we'll be testing out for our competition season :-). Which also, of course, brings up the dilemma -- Scouts will definitely be eye-balling our food. And we will most definitely NOT be cooking for the entire troop. We will be sampling out, of course, much like we would do at a competition. Guy

Hmmm, in some ways, I'm wondering if all of you bit on a 4/1 posting. :-) If it is actually true, of course, then please ignore this message. Guy

I was invited to the same workshop (I'm in MA) -- to me, it looked like a district committee training workshop (on steroids)...breakouts for finance, membership, training, commissioners, etc. After thinking about it quite a bit, I'm passing. It's on a date where I have conflicts -- if the program looked really good, I'd rearrange, but in this case, I don't think I will. Guy

Stosh tells an interesting story about counseling a Scout in Bugling MB, but with a parent nearby. It reminded me of a story about one of my experiences, not long after I started as an MBC -- so I was pretty much a rookie. Turns out it was a teen, but a new Scout. Had just joined a troop and was working on his first MB. This was for Photography MB, maybe the first time I'd counseled it. I offered to meet the Scout at his home, because he said they were digital pictures and that I figured it would be easier to see his work that way. His parents were both there, and in some ways, it felt like at first I was counseling all of them, because none of them had been through a merit badge before. But the experience was so much better than that. It became really obvious that dad was a talented amateur photographer, who did his digital processing in Aperture (the Apple Photoshop-like program), and produced coffee table books from his work. It was also obvious, from the photos, that the two of them would go around and take pictures together. We started talking about all sorts of things, and I think I probably picked up as much from dad as they did from me. It was really a fun experience, and I left wishing that I'd be invited on one of their shoots sometime. Then there was another time -- I was invited to a small, Cooking-themed camporee to counsel a few Scouts on Cooking merit badge that weekend. One Scout was profoundly disabled, but was still working on it, with his dad there, helping keep him focused, and more or less hand-holding him through the process. But at one point, the dad and I went off into a discussion about nutrition. He seems to read as much as I do, and had read several books on nutrition that I haven't read (and he hadn't read some of the ones that I have). I'm glad he spoke up -- there again, I think I was learning in the process too. I've also been present when my sons have met with counselors. I always vow to remain completely quiet, and away from the action, unless the counselor addresses a question to me directly. Guy

I'd say, "who wants Pi?" but that would be somewhat circular. Guy

When my older son first joined his troop, not counting summer camp, they did a grand total of six "nights under nylon" in his first year. The average outing had 8 Scouts (out of 30) attending. Recognize a small problem? :-) It was hard work, and an eventual change in troop leadership, but this last year, the troop did 11 monthly outings, two weeks at summer camps and a 5-day canoe trip in northern Maine. Outside of summer camp, the average outing now has about 20 Scouts, out of 26-28. Guy

There will be a bunch of answers to this, but start first with the idea that the advancement model is completely different in Boy Scouts. There are rank advancement requirements (which are typically signed off by someone within the troop -- every troop most likely has their own policy on this front -- in our troop, for example, Patrol Leaders and Instructors have this responsibility -- both are youth leadership positions). Merit Badges are a completely different system -- every Scout goes to a registered Merit Badge Counselor for instruction and sign off. You are welcome to register to become a merit badge counselor (for one or more of the 130-some merit badges). There is no prohibition on you counseling your own son in a merit badge, but some troops discourage that (and can rationalize it in a few different ways). There are many factors that come into play here, including your troop's policies. Our troop, for example, is pretty much the "any merit badge at any time" type of troop, where others will be more selective about which Scouts work on whatever merit badges at whatever time (an example -- some troops will not refer a Scout for First Aid merit badge when they haven't completed the rank First Aid requirements yet; you'll find that one of the first requirements of the First Aid merit badge is to complete the Tenderfoot, Second Class and First Class First Aid rank requirements). So my recommendation would be this -- if your son has a ton of initiative, that's great. Channel him into talking to his Instructor/PL and SM. They will guide him in what to do. You don't really need to facilitate this for him. Meanwhile, find some subject areas that appeal to you, sign up to be a counselor, and take merit badge counselor training. Counsel some Scouts other than your son, and then you can see firsthand how the system works. Guy

I know this is kind of a digression, and under the "old rules", but last October I observed a Scout's Eagle Board (I was an invited troop rep -- but did not address either the board or the candidate). I wrote about it in a thread last October. The project in question had been approved the prior spring, I think, and had been carried out over the summer. I don't think by the time the EBoR was held, in October, the board chair remembered signing off on the project the prior spring. The three Scouters sitting on the board did not review the entire application, letters of recommendation, and project writeup prior to the board. They skimmed the paperwork as they each peppered the candidate with questions. When they finally got around to discussing the project with the candidate, they zeroed in on (of course) his leadership on the project. But they also questioned the project itself somewhat. The project: clear a little more than a mile of a fire road in a local state park, and then rebuild the decking on a bridge on the road. Although I don't know the exact number, I think it was close to 200 Scout-hours of labor. The board chair focused on one thing at first -- I think he worded it like this: "Since Eagle projects are required to have lasting value, what do you think about clearing a fire road? Isn't it just routine maintenance?" The candidate handled the question fairly well -- he said the fire road, according to the ranger, had been overgrown for about 20 years, and that it was really only a small part of the project. More effort had actually been put into the bridge -- after old rotting decking had been pulled up, they had realized that some of the underneath structure had to be replaced at well. And he summed it up nicely by saying that for many years, due to the condition of the fire road, large parts of the State Park were not accessible to fire trucks, and they now were. The ranger, by the way, thanked the candidate (and his dad, the SM) by saying "we've got a couple more bridges that could stand rebuilding" :-). Future Eagle projects, I think.