GKlose

Hello all -- our troop is considering a high adventure trip on the West Branch of the Penobscot in Maine. Has anyone done this already? We're talking to an outfitter, but I think the nature of the trip is such that we can do it without a guide (only flatwater and quickwater -- no whitewater). Although I haven't found it on a map yet, I believe this is above the Ripogenus Gorge, so we're not in rafting territory. Thanks, Guy

I didn't know this until just recently, but I learned from our DE that our unit (82) is coming up on 60 years old. Troop 81 in town dates back to the mid-1920s, I believe. Sarge, I didn't pay attention to the invoice when I saw it last night, but I think it was around $19 and change for 12, and maybe $4 or $5 for shipping. So, a "double-digit" patch is under $2 each, in quantity (3-digit and up cost more, of course). As I recall, single-digit pricing is $0.89 at the local scout shop. But you hit exactly my idea -- last year when my son joined, the troop handed him a new handbook at his crossover. This year, since I've been taking on "membership duties", I plan on helping to revamp the crossover a little. For example, I hope to make a ritual out of replacing their neckerchiefs and their loops, give them a handbook and a set of digits. Then try and work it so they can get their Scout badges awarded to them at the first troop meeting they attend after their transfer.

Let me refresh memories: I posted a complaint that individual numerals didn't have a matching font (this was with an "8" and a "2"), and I think it is fairly obvious when you look at the images on scoutstuff.org. Gold Winger posted a detailed followup that pointed out that the "2" had remained in the old "block style" font, while the other numerals had changes to a more sleek font. He also posted a link to a brochure that shows exactly the problem: "Even more of a hoot is this. Look at the Scout on the first page of the flyer at http://www.scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/images/pdfs/2008UniformGuide.pdf His numbers are of the old style, both digits. Now look down a few pages where it shows the Webelos. The eight and the two in the inset don't match. (Ironic that they are the same digits that GKlose bought)" I think I had also noted that the new embroidery looked a little cheesy, as if it was very low quality. My solution was to place an order for custom numbers, and it certainly was easy to place the order by calling national supply (in NC). The price is very good, which I didn't expect -- it is almost the same as buying individual digits, but of course there is a minimum order of 12 sets (I figure I'll have no problem getting rid of them within the troop). The order just came in, right on time (estimated delivery time was 4 weeks). The interesting part, to me, is that the "8" and the "2" are both the "block style" font, and they match. However, I do note that the quality is still very poor. There is a rectangular embroidered border around the digits, and it isn't entirely straight with squared corners. I'm kind of disappointed by that, but at least it looks a whole lot better than buying individual digits. Guy(This message has been edited by GKlose)

"I was sort of surprised by the number of posters in the pack dues thread who said their pack dues are $80-$100/year." I was one of them...I think our dues are $100, with a discount for multiple Cubs. But I also mentioned that this was a one-stop shop kind of thing: the pack doesn't do any other fundraising (except for selling hot dogs and other stuff at the Pinewood Derby -- it doesn't really raise much), and the fee covers handbooks, neckerchiefs, awards, all den meeting materials, Blue and Gold (at a banquet facility that runs ~$20 per person), and an FoS donation from the Pack. In fact, I think the only time a parent dips into their pocket is for special events (e.g., just took my youngest to the Council's "Readyman Day"), and for some special projects (e.g., last week's pack meeting involved bringing donations to put together Holiday "care packages" for local seniors). If I had to guess, I would say most parents involved with the pack don't want to deal with fundraising, so they view this as a more expedient way to run the pack. BTW, I have no idea if accommodation is made for struggling families. I would guess there is, but I don't really know for sure. If I can get a gripe out of the way with: the local sports scene in my town is huge...the soccer program, for example, has over a thousand participants. Baseball, basketball, wrestling, football, lacrosse, field hockey, ice hockey, etc. are all huge. Most kids we know play multiple sports, sometimes overlapping (my kids are now only in baseball and basketball, which don't overlap). We first noticed a few years back when my wife was coaching soccer that the league started to move up payment dates. Fall season had started (October) and they were asking for full payment to ensure a spot for spring season (April). Anything later got a hefty late fee, if the program hadn't already been filled. Same thing happened this year with baseball. Summer baseball finished up by August, followed by a short tournament season. No fall baseball. The dads running the program decided on fall evaluations for spring '09 baseball. They only thing they could come up with is a new policy where to be involved in fall evaluations (for April baseball) was full payment -- six months early! $135 per kid! Which really stinks because our spring season is usually half rained-out anyway. It only runs through May, with the first couple of weeks of June set aside for playoffs. Guy

"If the troop is to produce youth leaders, then a strong adult leader isn't necessary." Not to step on your esteemed toes, Stosh, but I see the situation a little differently. It might take a strong adult leader to do his job properly (by facilitating the youth leadership program), and perhaps not step in to "straighten things out, just to get things going again." AskAndy talks about the "World's Oldest Senior Patrol Leader" syndrome. I don't think that's a sign of a strong adult leader, that's a sign of an adult leader not delivering the program in the right way. In fact, it may take a strong and committed adult leader to be trained properly, remember the training and apply it properly, and *not ever give in*. On the other hand, I do understand the point you are making -- Guy

Last April, as a "wet behind the ears" newly-registered Scouter, I attended a local University of Scouting (without having had the opportunity for any prior training). The first session I attended was called "Annual Program Planning", and it was basically an introduction to the Troop Program Features, and the monthly inserts in Scouter magazine (which I still have not seen in person). The other things I picked up from the session included the responsibility of the PLC for the annual troop program (I didn't know the PLC concept existed, but I did know our troop didn't really have one), and the need to reconcile different calendars (school, chartered organization, council and district, etc) during the process. Guy

Right, Lisa...in fact, I think both of my kids have won design awards (I noticed in our present pack, where just a few too many cars are dad built that all of a sudden are winning design awards too -- but the Cub, of course, is picking up the trophy but doesn't really understand why). They've never yet won a single heat of any race (out of maybe 8 total cars built so far).

Like lots of us here, I've seen a lot of Pinewood Derbies, and I've seen good things and bad things. One policy I liked best is with one pack that had trouble with cars being dad-built and it was kind of going over the top. So they started offering an "other" category for family-built cars (with separate trophies), with strict guidance that Cub-built cars were to be built and decorated by Cubs (with my own sons, I drew the line at unsafe tools -- their designs, but I'm the one that cut and chiseled them -- but they used sanders; that kind of thing). One thing I really hated. My younger son is in his last year of Webelos at a different pack than the one above. They set up the track and then set up a ring of chairs (facing outward) all along the track. Dads crowd around the track, running the races. Kids have to really crane their necks to see the action (from a distance). They lose interest and don't pay attention, until two hours later when some kids hear they've won a trophy. Guy

Sorry -- I should have pointed out that the pack doesn't do any other fundraisers. The $100/year is a one-shot deal for every family. I don't particularly care for the system, so please don't expect me to defend it. Guy

Our pack does much the same thing, except it's a little higher (I think $100 total this year, discounted for multiple cubs in the same family). The pack builds in B&G banquet costs (it's one of those eye-rolling things for me, it's held at a pricey banquet facility that I really dislike), adult registration costs, and also a Friends of Scouting donation.

I'd like to concur with checking at the local YMCA -- maybe ours is atypical, but out of the entire lifeguard and aquatics staff, there are two Eagle scouts. With the one we checked with, he was more than happy to sign off on 2C/1C swimming requirements and Aquanaut requirements.

I had to check the date on the above posting, because I swear it could have been written in 2001 That was back when I learned that 401K money probably isn't best invested in company stock, but I had to learn that the hard way.

I recently sat on my first EBoR, with our troop (troop run, with district advancement committee representative). The CC was the chair of the board, after he attempted to defer to the DAC rep (who said, "I'm only here observing, I may not speak up at all"). Only one thing was seemingly off...there were two ASMs on the board (the other members were CC, the DAC rep, me and the COR, who happens to be the previous SM of the troop). Then again, I don't really know, because my membership card says "Troop Committee" but at the first troop CoH after my official training weekend, I was handed an ASM patch (I wear a TC patch though). I don't think the ASMs and I knew the candidate all that well, so we kind of focused on the broad-stroke questions, asking about his experiences in the troop and about his future plans. In any case, the candidate was beyond reproach. The chair did one light-hearted test, by tossing the candidate a length of rope and asking him to tie a square knot. We all kind of laughed about that. Guy

Maybe I missed this along the way, so I'll ask for clarification: "Eagle Adviser" is not an official position, either with the troop or the district or council. However, in this particular case, the troop chooses to assign a registered scouter the unofficial task of being an Eagle Adviser, who is supposed to assist a Life Scout with the process of developing an Eagle Project and taking that to the district advancement committee for approval. Do I have that correct? If so, I'm unclear on who is really insisting the "problem EA" must be part of the process. Is it the troop committee who insists on the EA, or is it the district advancement committee (or chair) that insists all Eagle projects are submitted by EAs and not by Eagle candidates? (thanks!)

Sorry to glom onto this thread, but does anyone know if unit flags only come in one size? I'd like to get one on the smaller side (say, 2' by 3' or smaller). Thanks, Guy

It's not like I've been around as a scouter for very long, or been participating in this forum, but one common theme that keeps being visited over and over again is how scouters are supposed to be assisting with getting things done rather than putting up roadblocks. In the "Ask Andy" column, this sounds like Andy's classic case of a Tin God who has his priorities mixed up. He'd be exactly the kind of guy that says "yeah, I know what the handbook says, but we have higher standards around here for our Eagles." You'd think that after two or three or four passes he'd get tired of the back-and-forth too, but in this case it seems like he is enjoying keeping a kid twisting around. I had some experience at being a "target" by an adult scouter when I was on a summer camp staff. He really was entertained by making me miserable. He got another adult scouter to join in the fun too. When I didn't get the support of the camp director, I should have quit on the spot. But I didn't, I stayed. And the only thing I learned is that there are adults that are jerks and few people ever stand up to them. Guy

These are bring backs lots of old forehead slaps! Two kinda lame ones I remember: "So, you heard the story about the ceiling?" "No." "Well, it's over your head." "Heard the story about the bed?" "No." "It's not made up yet." In an older vernacular: "What's that you're rubbing on your arm?" "Liniment...and boy, does it make my arm smart." "Tried any on your head?" Two scouts in my old troop found an old vaudeville routine in a book at the library. The routine was called "Corn, But Not Forgotten". They modified it to add in a whole bunch of these run-ons. After one aged out of the troop, I got to move into the "straight man" role, and we did it at several different campfires. Always a show-stopper for those that like the old, bad jokes. Guy

For Arrow of Light award purposes, are you able to schedule a den visit to the troop 20 minutes away? Schedule an overnight with them, or a visit to another one of their weekend activities (if they have them)? That would mean a small number of visits over several months, not necessarily a weekly commitment to drive 20 miles. As far as the 5th grader is concerned, he "ages out" at the end of the school year. Or, as is the case with both of my sons, he may be 11, and "scout eligible", sooner than the end of 5th grade. There is always the "Lone Scout" option until a troop is started closer to where you live. All that being said -- and I hope I'm not stepping on toes by saying this, but I am always very sad when I hear of Cubs dropping out and not moving on to Boy Scouts. They're missing the big payoff! Guy

Woodwind-Brasswind (www.wwbw.com) sells bugles. They're a reputable company, and they've gotten lots of my business over the years.

I understand what Bob White is talking about... I think if you have a young and enthusiastic new scout, and an active troop program (outings at least once a month, for example, and perhaps patrol activities in addition), then T and 2C are pretty much easily attainable, and perhaps the bulk of 1C too, within the first year. So depending on when a new scout starts, that could mean 2 or possibly 3 rank advancements in the first year. Of course, advancement happens with a self-driven scout, perhaps with a little encouragement from a parent and a troop leader. If everyone else is advancing, then it would seem like the young and enthusiastic new scout would too, in a twist of a peer pressure "Just Say Yes" kind of situation . But I would also balance that with the idea that sometimes those Star, Life and Eagle advancements don't necessarily happen on a "one scout per year" average, so the 2 or 3 from young scouts may help bring up the troop average. An example is my own son...when he joined in April, at his very first conference, the SM encouraged him to achieve Tenderfoot as fast as possible (then he would be in good shape going into July summer camp). Tenderfoot was finished in May, and he worked on 2C and a few 1C requirements at summer camp, and finished 2C just before the October CoH. He's roughly halfway on his way to 1C, and if he desires to, he could probably finish it in a few weeks. Guy(This message has been edited by GKlose)

I sat in on my first Eagle BoR a little over a week ago, and I'm glad we were not put in this same position. Although I didn't know the candidate well (he's a senior in high school, and between work, school, his cross-country season, getting college applications ready, his participation in the church music ministry and youth program, and his other volunteer work), there isn't anything about him that wasn't a slam dunk. In fact, if anything at all, I don't think the candidate realized how great of a job he has done with his life. I was honored to be a part of the board. In a slightly humorous moment (to me), during our few moments of "deliberation" we asked the district representative if anyone ever fails a board. He said, "not really, but we've often asked candidates to work on something and then come back to the board after some amount of time." So I said, "so that means we could ask this guy to come back tomorrow?". Everyone laughed, except the district rep, who said "I'd never do that to him." I don't think he had much of a sense of humor about Eagle boards. Guy

Interesting thought, John... Another surprising bit from our discussion -- he mentioned a troop that waited until an October Court of Honor to award Scout badges to their newbies; he was implying that it took the troop that long to "advance" them to that point (assuming a spring transition to the troop). I mentioned to him that AoL recipients were supposed to receive their Scout badges right away ("with approval of your Scoutmaster" according to the handbook). Now, I see two red flags -- one being that it seems like it took and awfully long time to walk them through some rather easy stuff -- or, the other being that they held onto the badges until the next court. I offered the opinion that you should get these badges on them as soon as possible (for meeting "joining requirements", after all!), and that by the end of summer they should probably be fairly well done with Tenderfoot. I can't complain -- I think our own troop has some kind of issue, too. At the end of this summer, a scout showed up that I hadn't seen before. He'd been out for over a year due to lyme disease. But at our October court, he was awarded Scout and Tenderfoot badges at the same time. I'm happy for him, but I don't understand why it would take so long to get him a recognition for joining! Guy

Sorry, I can see how that can be confusing... This was from a DC at a district committee meeting, and I believe he was talking about quality units (and he had CQU sheets in front of him). As far as I know, one of the criteria of quality district is to have a certain percentage of CQU's right? In the limited reading I had done, I thought that goals were put in place by individual units. However, I don't know if this is just our district or not, but our district's unit commissioners seem to have a hand in getting those forms filled out. From the way the DC was talking, it seems like every unit had the advancement goal of 50%. I couldn't tell if that was just a coincidence, whether UC's suggested that, or if it was a district/council/national suggestion, or if that goal was already set in the process. If I were more awake at 8:30pm at night, I'd think about asking questions about that sort of thing :-). Anyway, I'm trying not to get too bogged down in the actual CQU award (or district award). I'm really not very informed on the subject. It seems like they are approaching it the right way -- they wish units to have "stretch goals", but at the same time, attainable goals, so that units can achieve the award. Thanks...Guy

Hello all - It's not like I'm seeking clarification, or trolling for dissent, or anything but I found this mildly interesting: At a district committee meeting last night, our district commissioner was going over centennial quality unit criteria (there is a goal for 50% advancement, however I don't know if that is the district, or part of the council or national criteria). Our DC mentioned that packs find it relatively easy to meet the criteria, because ScoutNet advancement reports count Bobcat as a "rank earned". He went on to mention that "I don't know why they don't do the some thing for Scout rank"...I knew that the Scout badge is not a rank, and mentioned that. News to both the DC and the DE, and that's fine (it can be looked up). But the discussion digressed into differences between Bobcat and Scout, and why they should both be treated the same (and I agree -- the spirit and intent of both Bobcat and Scout appear to be the same, so they should be treated equally in terms of advancement). It wasn't long before the discussion shifted over to adult leader training (for CQU), and that opened up another whole can of worms...

saw something of note a couple of weeks ago: At a troop Court of Honor, a scout about to age out of the troop was being awarded First Class. Likely his last function with the troop. His family, including an older brother who is an Eagle from the troop, attended. Older brother, the Eagle, is now in college and made a special trip home to attend. He was wearing his full youth uniform, including Eagle patch, merit badge sash and OA sash (yes, I know it's wrong on many counts). There are no uniform police, so nobody is going to be quoting BSA uniform regulations to him. But I got to thinking that this was also likely to be his last function with the troop, now that his brother is "graduating" and it may be the last time he wears the uniform. He was proud enough of his accomplishments that he still wanted to wear it. Some kids can't wait to get out of it, or are somewhat embarrassed to be wearing it in public. There were tons of mid-aged kids in the troop that were happy to see him. I'm just hoping that he feels strongly enough about the program that he continues as an adult leader some day. Guy