GKlose

I worked in a summer camp kitchen back in the late 70s...I'm not sure who accredited our camp (WilVick might remember) but the kitchen and dining hall got great scrutiny. The county health department also visited before the summer opened, and that was even more stringent. Our practices were safe, so there were no issues and the camp indeed got its preferred rating. But all this came home to me one night when a Scoutmaster approached me to tell me that one of his scouts had diarrhea. I really wasn't sure what to say. Could we have messed up? It's possible, but there wasn't anyone else in camp that was sick, and there were no other complaints. Looking back I realize how serious of an issue that was. We now have 30+ more years of food safety awareness, and we know that not cooking something properly, or improper handling and storage of food can lead to serious sickness and even death. There was one problem that wasn't really our fault: we got milk deliveries from a local dairy. One day one of their refrigerators went out, and a whole batch of milk spoiled. That didn't prevent them from recooling it and delivering it anyway. I kept getting reports of individual half-pints that were sour, while others were just fine. I eventually figured out to check date codes and figured out that each and every milk crate in our walk-in had some spoiled cartons mixed in with good cartons. After some irate phones calls, complete with yelling back and forth, they "graciously" (sarcasm intended) replaced the spoiled milk that they were billing us for. Luckily nobody got sick.

I forgot to mention -- in my older son's den, my den leader wife found out that one of the moms is a registered nurse, and that's how they "taught" Readyman. My younger son went to a Readyman Day run by another district in our council. I thought it had the potential of being something very interesting, but in my mind it was very poorly delivered. Webelos were herded from station to station in a large gymnasium, seated and talked at for 45 minutes. When that was done, they were herded to another station and talked at. All day long. The only relief happened when one of their stations was in a pool. They changed and they were herded to some poolside bleachers, where they were talked at for about 15 minutes. When it was done, they got to go in the pool for about ten minutes, where 5 of that was used for a buddy check. Then they had to dry off and change back into their uniforms. Pretty disappointing, I think.

As far as I know, the Red Cross BAT (Basic Aid Training) is meant to be a self-administered course. A prospective teacher contacts the Red Cross to rent the training video (which tells them how to deliver the course) and the program materials, which as I recall is kind of like a comic book with sections to be filled in. Red Cross trainers routinely teach basic courses such as CPR/AED and Basic First Aid, and they will do the same courses on job sites (called something like CPR or First Aid in the Workplace). I'm sure if you called one of their trainers they could help you figure out a way to best deliver their services to your group. They're friendly like that.

My troop, back in the 70s, did this a few times on our own. When the council offered their version of "Brownsea 22" training (which may have been part of the All Out For Scouting initiative, it was old hat to me. It was also not unlike the week we spent at the national jamboree (actually, I think the menus were very similar at all of those events). This is a link to someone's diary, and it looks like they went through something similar to me (except ours was patrol method, cooking on our own all the way, including an end of the week parent's banquet): http://www.hcst.net/~edelmann/brownsea22.html I'm not sure about this, but it seems like some of the "Brownsea 22" syllabus was adapted into NYLT. When our troop did it on our own, I know there were adults that devoted an entire week of their time to help the program run (such as one dad that acted as a commissary agent for the week -- years later, I've learned from one of his sons that his dad drove into town, daily, shopped every store looking for the best deals on large quantities and even managed to talk store owners into making donations). Of course, there was a limited set of MBs offered, but it wasn't all about advancement, it was about having fun for the week.

No problem...when I wrote my orginal note, I debated with myself (really -- you should try running between two podiums sometime ) on how much detail to add. Of course, burned again, because most detail comes out in the end anyway. I was worried the discussion might get bogged down in a "you should be going to the Maine High Adventure Area" rut, when in fact we've discussed that alternative and aren't going that direction (one reason is the overall cost; another is that not all our 1st class and above scouts were 13 by January 1 of this year). Another bit of detail I've been shy about adding: the troop tends towards adult-run, and nobody has much experience planning a trip outside of a regular weekend trip (which is done on the fly) or going to summer camp (what's really to plan there?). I'm hoping not to piss anyone off, but I want this to be a sort of subtle step towards letting the scouts going on the trip plan their own trip. We'll see how that goes. We have talked to an outfitter who has recommended a suitable trip (we'd be more swimming and fishing, versus hairy whitewater, such as the Allagash) and will take care of canoe rentals, dropoff and pickup. We're still in discussions about a guide -- one option is to invite an old friend of mine, who was on staff at the Maine National High Adventure Area years ago. Another troop in our district is planning a trip down the length of the Connecticut River this summer. I'm planning on asking them a few questions too. thanks, Guy

Thanks guys...the troop has been around a long time, but the current crop (including adult leaders) is towards the young and inexperienced end of the spectrum...monthly outings are more in the style that scoutingagain suggests, and other than summer camp, there hasn't been any kind of long-term or high adventure trip for awhile. Troop tends towards adult-led and passive scouts. Why a spreadsheet? I was kind of thinking along the lines of a template, or a tool, to assist with planning something out of the ordinary for us (also, I personally am cost-conscious enough that I'd like to see a budget estimate before committing). Even though the troop tends towards adult-led, I was hoping such a tool might be able to assist scouts with the process of planning their own trip. The trip is looking like a 5-day or 6-day flatwater river and lake trip in Maine. I like the idea of introducing "Safety Afloat" training. Thanks for the suggestion. O.S. -- thanks for the Northern Tier guide link. That helps too.

Understood, and not taken the wrong way (in fact, I am sheepishly acknowledging the idiocy of my question). But, maybe if I had been more specific it might have made a difference? This would be for a 6-day canoe trip in Maine, with a bunch of tweener scouts (1st class to Star) who haven't gone on or planned a trip like this before (adults included).

Has anyone developed a spreadsheet for trip planning purposes? Maybe something that includes itinerary, budget, patrol and individual equipment lists, meal planning and shopping lists (all on separate worksheets)? If so, would you care to share it? I found a few online, including about four or five examples, for a Backpacking Light contest, and they're a good start. But I figure if someone wants to share their example, that would be great. Thanks, Guy

About a year ago, I was "coaching" my older son's W2 den leader through the transition process. I felt very strongly about, and was going to do this with my son anyway, visiting every troop in town. This is something I did as a Webelos, and when I hit the right troop (for me) I knew it. I got resistance, anywhere from "Why?" to "But I thought we were supposed to join Troop XX". Along the way, we learned not every troop is perfect, and there is a fairly wide variation, at least among troops in our town. My son had a tough decision to make, and in hindsight, he did pretty well with it. Out of the four troops we visited, I think two had it right...on our way out the door, at these two troops, a unit leader thanked us for visiting and said to us "even if you don't join our troop, please join a troop." It's not always about the health of a unit, it's about the health of a program and finding what is best for a particular scout. Last year, one particular troop in town did a full court press on recruiting and they were rewarded nicely (one reason for doing this is that they had been shut out the year before). I'm pretty sure they recruited all W2's in town except for my son, some 20 total new scouts. That's not such a bad thing, but I've already heard reports that some have dropped out. I can't speculate why, but I would hope they are putting as much effort into retention as they are into recruitment.

My wife has participated in several, working for a spice-related food vendor. Although I'm sure there are variations, a typical craft fair is a large room with tables, where each "booth" is leased to a crafter. Sometimes individuals selling crafts they've made (handmade jewelry and trinkets, woodcarvings, etc; one of the saddest I've seen was a guy selling digital photographs he had taken, printed on his inkjet and framed -- but they weren't very good photographs), other times it includes craft supply vendors, people who make food products, and all sorts of other things. Big fairs are big business, where booths are leased for hundreds of dollars, and vendors jockey for position (some pay more for a prime location, for example). I'd assume Bryan is looking at something much more small-scale than that. My impression has always been that the organizers, after expenses, don't clear very much at all. It has to be well-promoted, with good traffic, for such an event to make enough for crafters. If a crafter makes a couple hundred dollars, what can you charge for a table? 25 or so? Guy

Our troop open house for Webelos is coming up in a couple of weeks (that's kind of misleading, because a Webelos or a Webelos den could come and visit any time they want, and they'd get a pretty good picture of the troop -- but this particular meeting coming up is being specifically organized for recruiting). I think the troop committee realizes that last year was a little too low-key, there wasn't much thought put into recruiting, and my son was the only one out of 20-some Webelos in town that joined this troop. So this year, a little more focus is being placed on recruiting. But -- last week we had a visitor. A young Star scout had moved into town from another council, and is shopping for a new troop. We didn't really have anything special going on at all. The SPL did an opening, and then everyone headed out for a dodgeball-like game (I stayed behind to talk to the Scout's mom for a bit, and even offered to help her contact the other troops in town). Then they came back inside for patrol corners, and then a closing. Not much of a plan, but kind of business as usual. At the end of the meeting, the mom told me that her son was happy and would be joining. Most of that came from recognizing a couple of kids from school (he had just started that day). Guy

I've been to a number of Cub functions over the last couple of years, and I'm continually bored out of my skull because, in general, nothing is planned for parents (besides watching their kids) -- and yes, I do understand that some dens and cubs need heavy supervision, but I've also seen many cases where this isn't necessary (ex: at a Webelos Woods event, group of 8 Webelos are circulating to stations; 8 moms and dads standing around, watching them be entertained). Our district, however, recently ran a Chuckwagon where there were some extra things planned. While dens were busy with different activities (a den would be at a station, doing some sort of fun activity, and the station was run by an adult Scouter or a Boy Scout), there were some Pow-Wow-like training sessions that were thrown together, so that cub parents and den leaders had something to do. All in all, with some rough edges to work out, things went spectacularly well. YPT would have been good to offer (but we didn't). We did offer NLE. One guy did a session specifically on games for Cubs. I personally taught a session called "Trail To Eagle" (I didn't come up with the concept, but I revised and delivered the session). I also threw in a short powerpoint I did on the history of Cub Scouting (I'd guess that most Cub parents don't know about B-P, Brownsea Island, William Boyce, etc). The rationale behind my "Trail to Eagle" session is that lots of Cub parents know the achievements and requirements, and electives, at their own level, and the levels before, but they may not, for example, know what Webelos is all about, or the transition to Scouts, or the joining requirements for Boy Scouts, or the Boy Scout advancement continuum, what merit badges really are, which are required for Eagle or what it really means to be an Eagle Scout. They had already learned that Advancement was only one method (in NLE), but my session was to show them what advancement was all about. One thing I picked up from this forum was the graduated nature of certain requirements: you have Tiger Cubs that "go on a hike with your adult partner", stepping up through longer hikes and planning hikes at higher levels, to a 5-mile hike as a Tenderfoot, to Hiking merit badge (if a scout decides to do it). There is a similar progression with first aid skills, and camping skills, swimming and water safety, and cooking skills. It really is a well thought out program (but then again, all of us knew that!). I left plenty of time for questions, and it was great fun. I only saw one person dozing, and one guy texting (but I later learned he was a very experienced Scout and Scouter). So, overall this Chuckwagon and training session went very well. I have just one complaint overall -- occasionally, a Cub would head off to a restroom down a hallway, get distracted and then wander (this event was being held at a vocational school, in a big multi-purpose room). We'd hear security come over the PA telling the Cub to rejoin the group. They were obviously watching hallways by video. We should have had hall monitors in place, to make sure that Cubs made it to the restroom and back without incident. We should have also had a buddy system spelled out, so Cubs would only travel to restrooms in pairs, or small groups. Guy

I know this question wasn't asked, but may I make some suggestions for shakedowns (and I'm sure others will chime in too): Shakedown hikes are great opportunities to: 1. review and revise equipment and packing lists (1.b. make sure packs, boots, etc fit properly) (1.c. make sure appropriate clothing is packed) 2. split up group equipment fairly among all participants 3. practice staying together as a group 4. review trail planning and map reading and such 5. talk over emergency procedures 6. practice setting up and tearing down camp quickly 7. practice hanging bear bags with smellables 8. practice preparing meals and cleaning up from them quickly 9. practice subsisting on Philmont menus (you can find them online) 10. talk about duty rosters, etc. 11. review LNT guidelines 12. condition yourselves physically for strenuous days All that will help you enjoy your Philmont trek even more. Guy

I'd have to agree with Kahuna...my trek was in '75, and the bus ride from OH to NM was interesting, to say the least. We shared the bus with two other crews from our district. Our crew leader was a Philmont veteran from '72, so he and our SM knew some of the more interesting places on the way out and back, which included an overnight at Ft. Riley Kansas, a visit to the Eisenhower Library, a St. Louis Cardinals game, seeing the outdoor musical "Texas" near Amarillo and other things. But -- the best part of all, was staying on an overnight with a troop in La Junta, CO, as I recall. They specialized in Indian dance, and did a performance for us (either that, or we just so happened to be there on a night when they were performing anyway). I wish I could recall the details, but it was very entertaining.

Our local camp has an Eagle Week, and the older scouts in our troop tend to skip summer camp with the troop in order to go to the Eagle Week. I think when I was a scout, I would have liked to do both, but by the time I was older (15+) I was working at the camp anyway. On the other hand, a reasonably active scout that goes to summer camp probably isn't trying to fit all 15 required in at camp. First or second year of camp, they might have worked on Swimming or First Aid. In subsequent years, they might toss in Lifesaving and Environmental Science, or others. And on the other other hand, there are some merit badges I probably wouldn't encourage a scout to do at an Eagle Week. Although I don't know for sure, I would get the feeling that the badges are somewhat short-changed at camp. For example, Personal Management. I think that would be something much better done on one's own, with a counselor that is a professional in the personal finance field. The Citizenships? I would guess that would feel somewhat watered down if it were done in a classroom setting with dozens of other scouts. Guy

Sure...my youngest son has pretty much decided he's done with Cub Scouts. He'll be 10-1/2 in March, even though he started Webelos I this last summer. It wasn't too difficult to get enough activity badges and activities for AoL finished, but I think he's almost done now (I think his Webelos I den is working on one more activity badge. I think he did it by going to a mix of meetings among both I and II dens. He's not so excited about Boy Scouts either (I don't think he is realizing that it is a much different game than Cub Scouts), but I've asked him if he would transition and then stay through at least First Class.

Sorry, B-Skip -- I've been busy for a few days. On our pack open house night, the only overt thing I did was hand out flyers, because I felt most of the Cub Scout parents there didn't know anything at all about the troop or what the troop does. The flyer, of course, also had contact information. Why everyone else was concentrating on watching Cubs and having fun, I was "working the room", so to speak. I've been in constant contact with the Cubmaster, and I've met his assistant (next year's cubmaster) several times too. I checked in with the Webelos II den leader, and he introduced me to the two members of his den that I hadn't met yet. I said hello to the ones I knew. I didn't catch up with the Webelos I den leader, although I have talked to her before and told her about some of the troop plans to help facilitate their year (one of those plans to is repeat last year's very successful "Outdoorsman Overnight" -- where the den joins us on an overnight specifically geared around our scouts helping their Webelos earning the Outdoorsman activity badge, with some other fun thrown in). At our open house, we had Cubs snacking while they watched video from a couple of our recent outings. We're hoping just that them seeing Scouts have fun is enough of a sales tool. My followup plan is this: we're working specifically on a Webelos open house for one of our troop meetings coming up. At this one, we'll extend an invitation to all second-year Webelos in town (there's only 8 to 10 total). I'm not sure what that program will be yet, but I am hoping the SPL will plan a good sales pitch. Just to be sure I'm not misunderstood -- so far, all of my contact has been with adults, except that I have also met all prospective crossover candidates. I try to remember their names so that I can say hello to them the next few times I see them, but I haven't really had conversations with them. Our SM is a charismatic guy, and when the time is right, he'll do a conference with each of them (also hits an AoL requirement). Guy

Found the page: http://www.bsajamboree.org/prepared.html Seems that the new health form is kind of supporting the new guidelines.

I'd be screened out too (and judging from the girths seen at recent district and council events, there is a fairly large percentage that are most likely screened out due to BMI issues), but this gets me to thinking. I know there are fairly rigid guidelines set up for the Centennial Jamboree, which were published earlier this year -- but has there been increase of incidents at high adventure areas? Heart attacks and fatalities at Philmont, for example.

I have some recent experience with stuff like this...one was an overnight set up for Webelos, and the other was a recent open house for our "feeder pack". There hasn't been much "feeding" lately because of a mis-handled relationship. So as a troop membership chair, I decided that was one of many factors that had to be addressed, including bringing back the annual open house. In both cases, we wanted to stress Scouts having fun. That's probably the single biggest factor -- a "recruit" recognizing a familiar face (having seen them at these events before) and recognizing that this group of kids are friendly and fun. I've also tried to talk to various adults on the side telling them the troop is fairly laid back (which it is) but likes to have fun, and is fairly active. I'm trusting that these events don't need to overtly scream "we're recruiting!". What I've found is that the average Cub parent doesn't know all that much about scouts, probably can't wait to get out of driving back and forth (and staying for) den meetings and pack meetings. They don't necessarily understand that the troop's job is to build a group of young leaders who can function without having adults lead them around from activity to activity. At our open house this last week, I would bet that 90% of the parents there didn't know that the troop has about 20 to 24 active members, and several active, committed adult leaders. While Cubs were tanking up on sugary snackage (which is not a normal thing for the troop), they were also watching a video of some the recent activity with the troop. In all this, I see a couple of really bright spots -- one is a 15-yr-old who hasn't really been involved in troop leadership all that much. He's kind of a harmless, have fun type of wise guy. But on our Webelos overnight, he really stepped up. He patiently helped a small group of Webelos pitch a tarp and tie knots. He was really good with them. I saw it, and complimented him on it later, and then brought it up to the board when he had a BoR a couple months later. He has since volunteered to be a Den Chief, and he was really cool with Cubs again this last week. So I guess my point is that sometime you don't need overt recruiting. Being friendly and having fun is a great sales tool all on it's own. BTW, at the open house I handed out flyers to all parents so that they knew who we are (despite being part of the same CO), what we do for fun, and what the joining stipulations are. That was probably too overt, but I had a specific goal in mind, which is to let everyone know who we are. I'm going to try and pull them in on joint service projects too, this coming spring. Guy

None of the packs we've been involved with have ever handed them out, but I've bought them for my kids. To answer your second question, I look at it this way: Tiger, Wolf, Bear and Webelosx2 = 5 years. Program years. I have no idea if there is official policy on this or not. Also, as a side note: I recently heard from another adult scouter that we could be wearing service stars now, counting our Scout (Cub and Boy) and Scouter years. I'm kind of a bare minimum guy, so I don't presently wear one. Guy

Thanks, Calico Penn -- I remember the old Seboomook Base -- one of the older scouts in my troop worked there for a season or two, while my friend worked at Matagamon Base a year or two after that. Guy

I was faced with a similar decision for my 12-y.o. scout a couple of months ago. I knew he was heading into a winter camping season without a suitable sleeping bag. He was coveting a mummy bag, and was looking through Campmor and other catalogs with me. I'm also thinking ahead to next summer's possible backpacking trip (except now it has turned into a canoe trip). Dad, why can't I get a down bag? Because they are expensive and if you don't take care of them, you'll get wet and cold. Don't worry, you'll learn that eventually (I'm thinking that right about the time he has a job and can earn money for his own stuff!). My solution was to buy a relatively inexpensive 0F bag (Eureka Wild Basin, $50) to get him through these winter months, which isn't all that heavy at 3lb-8oz (much better than his present rectangular bag). Then we'll look for a lighter weight 20F or 30F bag for backpacking, hopefully something closer to 2lb. Guy

Thanks, guys...I didn't fill in all the background, but I went on a Maine National High Adventure Area trek (on the Allagash) when I was a scout, and one of my closest friends from the troop ended up as a guide there the following two summers. It is highly likely that he is also going to be joining our present troop's trek this coming summer. The particular section of the West Branch was recommended to us by the outfitter as a scenic flatwater trek, and he suggested we didn't need a guide for this section. In fact, while we were planning some kind of trek in Maine for this summer, it wasn't until I saw a recent piece on the Thoreau-Wabanaki Trail in Backpacker magazine that things started to fall together. In any case, we have a bunch of planning to do before this happens. Has anyone been on this section (West Branch, down to Chesuncook) and can offer a personal account? Thanks, Guy

Thanks, SctDad...I know KTP well (I worked in Portsmouth, NH for about 4 years). Our local REI usually has a pretty good map selection too. I have a Baxter State Park and an Allagash map somewhere in my archives (the piles of papers on my desk) too, but I don't think either capture the West Branch. thanks... Guy